Do you ever get a massage?

Another way you can often tell is by looking at their web site if they have one. A real health spa usually has a very informative web site that discusses their people and their services and prices in some detail, while those specializing in erotic massage generally tell you next to nothing other than an address and phone number.

I'm also aware of some non-Asian places that operate in a similar fashion. But that's not nearly as common. The 2 I know about call themselves health spas and boast of having workout equipment etc. as well as massage. But the massage is the main thing.

QSM: I'm with FONDL. Sometimes the AMPS that offer extras won't do it unless you are a repeat customer. The fact that she mentioned what goes on in other AMPS is a dead giveaway.

AMP=Asian Massage Parlor -- often known less for the beginning of the massage but more widely recognized for its happy ending.

FONDL, perhaps I will visit that massage clinic around 9:00 PM or later just to test your theory!

What is an AMP?

Quicksand, that's interesting. There are a couple of legitimate places around here that don't require appointments but I'm not aware that they stay open late, that's usually a sure sign of extras being available. Maybe she was concerned that you were LE? Maybe they have to know you to be offered extras. According to my ATF, there is a gray area that lies between the two extremes - legitimate therapists who will sometimes offer extras to people they are sure of. I think that could be the best of both words if you can find one.

Chitown, try getting one from an attractive woman, it's a whole higher level of relaxation. And Mrs. Chitown wouldn't mind. Maybe. Get one for her too. A gift certificate to a fancy spa is a great gift.

T-water, I've never had one at my house but the therapist I go to regularly is only about a mile away so it's almost the same. And her room is set up so nice that I'd rather go there anyway. I've had several at waterfront condos overlooking the Gulf from my ATF. Perfect.

Chitown, you do understand that I am talking about a legimate massage. We're on the same page, even though I've teased in the past and have done different massages for people I'm intimately involved with. I do not cross the line where my massage business is concerned. -T

Well, the guy who gave me the single massage of my life was definitely a pro--he had a professional knowledge of the musculoskeletal structure of the back. After forty five minutes, I was so relaxed I thought I was going to spill off of the table.

Alas, the only massage that I ever got in my life was "legitimate", which was a good thing, since it was from a masseur. It was the evening between the two days that I took the bar exam. Great, relaxing experience.

AMPs spring up in the my area all the time, usually for thirty to forty five days, before the boys catch up with them. I have a colleague who recently got hired, via large cash payments, to get some solicitation charges dismissed against some young Asian women. As soon as the charges were dismissed, they were said to be on the next plane to a different hemisphere.

Sometimes it's good to go to a massage school and get a massage from the students in the clinic. The cost is about half price and you can ask for someone who specializes in what you're interested in (swedish, deep tissue, shiatsu, accupcunture, reiki, hot stone therapy, sports, russian, reflexology, etc). The students will do a good job because you know that they have training and they want to get good feedback or reviews. Once you find someone you like you can get them to massage you at home. Having a massage at home is the ultimate 'cause you can just relax and not have to drive anywhere after the bodywork.

FONDL wrote:

<< Or look under "massage" in the yellow pages -- the ones that keep normal business hours and require an appointment are likely to be legitimate. (If they say "no appointment necessary" or "open to 11 pm" or such they aren't.) >>

Hmmmmmmm...

The one I visited most recently posts hours of 10 AM to 10 PM. She was the only one there and I had to wait because I just walked into the place and she had another customer. She gave me a regular massage and even spoke disparagingly of the illegitimate places in the area. But it was the middle of a Saturday afternoon.

What do you think?

Most everytime I go to Las Vegas I'll spend half a day at the hotel spa getting a massage and other things. It truly is relaxing and makes you feel totally at peace. I should treat myself better at home and get them here too, when I need one after work and not during a vacation. Never had an FBSM... but the thought does interest me. Kinda doubtful they'd have a place like that out here in boonies where I live.

You might look for a small beauty parlor that has a massage therapist, she's likely to be young and attractive if that matters to you, and probably a lot cheaper than the hotel. Or look under "massage" in the yellow pages - the ones that keep normal business hours and require an appointment are likely to be legitimate. (If they say "no appointment necessary" or open to 11 pm" or such they aren't.) Some independents will come to your hotel room. The American Association of Massage Therapists lists members by location on their web site. You should be able to get a good massage for around a $1 a minute. I pay $85 for 1.5 hours once a month.

FONDL: I've thought about it many times. When I travel for work many of the resort hotels I work in have massage therapists-probably not the most economical place to get one since hotels jack everything up. Still, it's awfully tempting after a long hard day.

And Yoda, if you've never had a professional massage I'd recommend you try one if you can find a girl you like. You might discover that the better massage more than offsets the lack of a happy ending. Plus it's typically about half the price.

Twater, I just got it! That was completely unintentional, I meant T-water, a true Freudian slip. Anyway, I agree completely that the best part of a massage is the connection of two people through touch and nurturing, which to me is spiritual. Without that it's just another medical procedure. It might be pleasant but it'll never be awesome. And I really think the more you know, like and trust the other person the better the connection.

TH20: Sorry, “Full Body Sensual Massage”. In most cases it's a back rub followed by a hand job since most of the girls who do it-at least in my experience-are not trained masseuses. Still, I have had a couple of girls that where very good at the massage part and that always makes the release more exciting.

Twater, what a funny manipulation of my name. Honestly, this was cute!

I had to look up FBSM, couldn't find it, then figured it out. The massage Yoda describes sounds perfect. I never even knew about a manual release until a fellow massage therapist guy told me about it and said, "they didn't teach you this in school?" He used to massage me but then he'd try to go down on me and sometimes I just wanted a massage and I didn't want to feel like he was "going to swoop at any moment".

I've had lots of fun massaging different people. I massaged twin actors. They told me that they wanted a massage the next day too so that they could learn how to massage each other (it never happened). At the time they were appearing in a car commercial. I massaged someone who owned the most expensive house in La Jolla at the time (4 years ago). I had an 82 year old lady try to come onto me. She told me that she wanted a bikini wax. I was in nursing school at the time and thought, great she'll have a reaction to the chemical and I'll end up in the ER with her facing one of my instructors or classmates. I never did it, but she had more $$$ than God and left it to strangers.

I really love massage because it's a way of expressing and connecting with people through touch and nuturing that we often don't get in our hectic, technical. hurry up, faster, drive-through society.

TH20: Trust me, a nipple traced along the body can be relaxing, titilating and down right sexual all at the same time. I've never paid for a legitimate fully clothed massage. I have a favorite FBSM girl who is trained but not licensed. She does a great job and is clothed throughout about 50 minutes of our 60 minute session. When she flips me to begin the "senual" she strips down to a thong and a smile. At this point it's obviously not a legitimate massage any more but that 50 minutes of relaxation and anticipation lends itslef to an incedibly powerfull "happy ending" This woman is not working righ now, which is a shame. A good FBSM eperience can be as rewarding, if not more so, than an hour with a great escort.

sorry, should have read "sensual" portion of the massage.

Touching on one of TH20's earlier points. The reason the release portion of a good FBSM experience is so powerfull is because both you and the woman doing the massage are totaly focused on YOUR pleasure. When you have sex with a woman you are trying to please the two of you. That's great but there is something to be said for totaly selfish, guilt free pleasure once in a while.

FONDL: It's pretty much the same with me and my retired ATF. She knows I still go to her old club once in a while and she also knows I've seen some of her old co-workers OTC. Once in a while she will ask about an old dancer friend (or nemesis) or if a certain customer still comes in, she gets a big smile when I tell her someone she liked was asking about her-but I always wait until she brings it up. It's a juggling act but I don't think it's all that different than talking about an ex-husband or anything else in someones past that would trigger complex memories. I've seen my ATF through some of the lowest of lows and highest of highs. Sometimes you just have to stand back and let them take the lead. Present day nudity will never be an issue. Her being naked in front of me is a part of the past. We are still friends because she knows I understand that.

If I ever totaly understand women I will have nothing left to live for....

Sir FONDL - To each his own, and I hear what you're saying. But seriously man, if any hot stripper is rubbing ANY part of me ANY time, even fully clothed, I instantly wanna bang her till' the cows come home.

ps. I think you may have misinterpreted my post as well....I got the massage in VIP after we had sex, not before.

Twater (as opposed to Tbone), if one of my two massage therapists gave me a massage in the nude, they'd probably be nearly finished before I even noticed since I usually keep my eyes closed during a massage, it helps me to concentrate on the music and feeling and therefore to relax. And I'm sorry if I mislead you, I don't think of rearranging the draping as stimulating, but it does emphasize the fact that I'm nude and she's trying to keep a certain part covered, which strikes me as kinda silly. Plus she has to keep stopping the massage to do so which is distracting. With no covering we both forget about it totally and she doesn't have to keep interrupting the massage to rearrange the covering. This came about by accident - we were talking about differences between massage techniques between her and my ATF and I mentioned that she covers me completely with a sheet while my ATF uses a small towel, and she said that actually she has some clients who she doesn't cover at all. And I asked her if she liked that and she said yes because she feels she can give a better massage that way because she "knows exactly where I am and can get closer without worrying about touching me." So I said let's try it, we did, and it definately is a better massage, and we've been doing it ever since. And there's nothing the least bit sexual about it. Which raises an intersting question, what's wrong with "touching me" anyway? Why is it OK to massage 98% of my body but not the other 2%?

Best massage I ever got was after getting laid in VIP last July.... i left a very, very happy man ;).

Yoda, getting fully relaxed then getting off is extremely pleasurable. I think that the reason some women (not me) don't climax is because they are not relaxed enough to let go.

The nudity is fine with me as I am a nudist. I just don't want my nudity to distract the person receiving (massage) because I want him/her to fully enjoy the experience without anticipation of anything else. I guess that's why there are only a few people I can massage nude. I'm told that a bare nipple traced along a body during massage is erotic (my teasing is alive!). In summary, if I can massage nude, perfect, but I want to be able to concentrate on the massage.

I never thought about rearranging the draping as being stimaluating. FONDL, would you be able to relax and fully receive a massage if you and your beautiful, spiritual friend were both nude? In your ideal massage would there be foreplay; if so you would need to have your MT comfortable with that. I have a feeling that it wouldn't be difficult to put you in the "boyfriend category".

Yoda, sometimes my ATF wants to talk about nudity or to joke about her dancing and dancers in general - she even took me to her old club once to see some girls she knew who still worked there - and sometimes she doesn't. So I usually wait for her to bring it up first and if she does we talk about it. I've learned if I bring it up first or make a joke about it, sometimes it will annoy her, I'm never sure how she's going to react so I try to avoid it. She freely admits that sometimes she goes skinny dipping with a group of people she knows, male and female, but if I ever suggested that she and I do it, just the two of us, she'd get pissed. She's one of these people who hugs everybody and she got me into the habit too. But if I hold on too long she'll push me away and I bet she's not even aware of doing it. I will never understand females.

AN, I've been to public places where many people were nude and it wasn't sexy at all. I've also seen lots of really sexy women who were fully dressed. Nudity and sex don't necessarily go together. And whether you regard something as clean or dirty is all in your mind. Like so many other things, sexuality is in the eye of the beer holder.

TH20: I understand your "69" analogy perfectly. I prefer to conentrate on either giving pleasure or receiving it when it comes to oral sex. It's all about focusing your energy. The best massages I have recieved, though they did involve a sexual component, bagan and remained only massages until I was so relaxed I almost didn't realize where it was going....

FONDL: The key to your outside, post dancing relationship with your ATF being successful is trust. The same holds true for me. You mentioned the nudity issue and I agree. That's something that both parties have to get past for a post dancer/customer friendship to work. It's been 3 years now since my ATF quite dancing and, to her it's like it was a lifetime ago. We talk less and less about those days and more about our current lives and our futures. I would never expect either of our ATF's to tell us that, when they where dancing it was all about the money. Never the less, it WAS partly about the money weather we like it or not. If that where not true our ATF's would have told us to stop coming to see them dance naked and meet them for coffee instead.

All this talk of spiritual nudity and energy must stop. You're going to make sex, nudity, strip clubs and massages into something wholesome and clean. Where's the fun in that?

Spriritual nudity even makes nudist camp shuffleboard sound racy.

Why am I suddenly getting aroused thinking of volleyball?

T, it's the spirituality part of the massage that I like best. And I think that clothing inhibits spirituality to some extent because it creates a barrier between the two of you. I don't think nudity has to be sexual when it's done as part of a spiritual activity like massage. Take covering the patient for example - the continual adjustment of the covering keeps drawing attention to the genitals and therefore feels more sexual than no covering at all, which is what I prefer. One of my therapists is very accomplished at Rikki and she always includes it as part of the massage. And she can always tell where I need the most work. And you're right, my ATF is overly sensitive about nudity with me because of how we met - her dancing nude, which is someting she'd like to forget. So I doubt if we'll ever be nude together, but with the other girl I think it's a real possibility, she's very spiritual and doesn't mind me being nude at all.

Giving a wonderful, therapeutic massage is a lot of work. It may not seem like it because it feels so good. For a professional MT, the getting balanced with your energy is very important. We keep our energy clean, so we can concentrate and really do some healing. I can understand why your friend got pissed, it's because we're always trying to fight the stereotype of a slutty massage therapist.

I like playing with energy. In the club, if I like the guy I'm with I can get off. In the massage, I have a completely different kind of energy.

One way I can try to help you understand the energy focus is as follows (and this may not work because it's a sexual analogy). I don't like 69 ing because it's difficult for me to fully experience pleasure while I'm concentrating on giving my lover pleasure. I love him doing me or visa-versa but it gets complicated and distracting when in a 69. Massage is sometimes almost a spiritual experience if your therapist can really focus in on you in a healing way and you can let go and really recieve the massage. If you're going to do something sexual, perhaps it should be after the massage or just be sex. I know that this probably is difficult for you to follow.

As far as the raid goes. It involved alleged city council corruption, bribery and crimes committed across state lines (California and Nevada).

T., I know it's extremely rare, but i do know of raids where customers were charged along with dancers, etc. They apparently just rounded up a bunch of people at random. I don't know if they ever got any convictions of customers or if they became registered sex offenders. I'm sure the scenario you describe, where they indtimidate customers then let them go, is more typical.

T, I'm already good friends with two massage therapists. I've already asked one (my ATF) and she got pissed. I'm in no hurry to ask the other one.

So how come the FBI was involved in a raid? There's nothing federal about what goes on in the typical strip club. They must have been after more than just the typical strip club stuff.

Yoda, as you well know, all relationships are base on you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. Having money and/or sex involved doesn't change anything, it's still tit for tat. Or something like that.

Speaking only about the clubs I've worked in, they tend to get raided on Thursday or Friday afternoons or on a busy night. For some reason I've never heard of a vice cop doing a raid on a Sunday day or night shift, perhaps they don't work Sundays in the clubs.

I'm a professional teaser, so I tease. I actually really hate it when guys think that my massages are sexual or push me for it. My massages are professional and therapeutic. I guess that the best advice I can give is to find someone who isn't a licensed therapist. Do not bother with an escort for massage because they are lousy.

The difference is in having a boyfriend, these massages are sensual. After massaging my last boyfriend, I asked him how the massage was. He said it's great, but you neglected a muscle. Off of my table then and into a more comfortable environ.

Tropical H2O, how would I get friendly enough with an attractive licensed massage therapist to get her to give me a massage while she is fully undressed? Would that take place in her office or would she have to make a house call with her portable table?

What are the most likely days and times for a raid? Is there a pattern?

F, get a referral from a friend or get to know a massage therapist and develop a friendship.

I was working at Cheetahs when it got raided by the FBI. All of the customers had to pull out their wallets, put there hands in plain view and were ordered not to use their cell phones. This was a big time raid because it was conducted by Federal Officials, as opposed to local vice cops. None of the patrons were isssued a citation but the cops did take information from their driver's licenses and work information, as well. Pretty intimidating. The dancers are the ones who get ticketed or given a warning in the club, the guys never do, but sometimes the manager gets a citation as well. Soliticing a prostitute is a completely different story though, the guy will prabably get arrested.

FONDL: Your friend is right. I don't mean to imply that honesty can't exist where money is involved. However, once a woman depends on what you are spending on her she is very unlikely to do or say anything that will negatively impact that arrangement. It's not a question of honesty, I think it's related more to self-preservation. Again, much of this depends on how well she knows or trusts you.....there's that trust word again!

QM: Just being in a club when it gets raided can result in a charge. Having fun when it gets raided only marginally increases your risk.

Regarding the "sexual offender" legal status, can getting caught fondling and kissing a stripper's breasts earn the offender that label?

What about having an orgasm inside your pants that makes the outside appear damp?

Yoda, a friend of mine once said that getting to know someone is like peeling an onion. As each new layer is revealed you get to know them a little better but you almost never get all the way to the central core. I think that's true whether or not money is involved. My ATF is probably the only person who has ever seen my center; I know I'm the only one who has ever seen hers. BTW, she used to describe waitressing as flirting for a living.

Chitown, your daughter is wise beyond her years.

T, how do I find a therapist who will work in the nude? I'd enjoy that.

FONDL: I agree, you extend my thought process to any one that you do business with but men are in a particularly vulnerable position whe it comes to women, sex and ego. It's not quite the same as a waitress though waitresse and barmaids certainly use flirtation and plunging necklines to get bigger tips (I had one flash me once on a dare, I tipped her 20 bucks, worth every penny.)

I guess the point I am trying to make is you never completely know someone that you have a business arrangement with until the money is taken out of the equation.

My eight year old daughter, Chitown-ette, says that a good lawyer knows the law, while a great lawyer knows the judge.

FONDL, each county in California has different requirements regarding the number of hours required to get licensed and each county also independantly makes it's own regulations. In San Diego Country a licensed massage therapist must be fully clothed.

I know several massage therapists and we do trades with one another, all of these friends are very sensual people. When I was just getting my training, one lady taught me how to massage women's breasts and she has natural beautiful, large mother earth breasts. She also wanted me to do Reiki which I had never done before. She had me run my hands slowly down her body about 2 to 3 inches above the skin's surface, when I got to her hips my hands were "buzzing and felt hot" - I told her what I felt and she said, "right on, I have chronic hip trouble - you don't need any further training you have it!"

Many massage therapists will massage in the nude, I will for friends because I'm a nudist and as long as it doesn't interfere with giving a good therapeutic massage I'm more comfortable, but then I'm not charging them a set fee (if I find a tip later, so be it). MTs have to be very careful, though. Having a friendship with someone does change the relationship and allow the rules to bend to be more inclusive. My massages are really therapeutic though and I don't want to be thinking about sex; I want to give the client really good body work.

Sometimes I think, I could have sex with you mister but let's not involve my massage table 'cause I have to answer to the vice cops. -T

Yoda, you could expand your list to anyone with whom you do business - waitresses for example. But tht doesn't preclude friendship, friendships sometimes do develop out of business relationships.

T, what I find amusing is that massage girls who operate without a license can often get away with more than those who are licensed, plus as you point out they have a lot less to lose. For example, massage parlors seem to operate freely even in states that require a license. They just call it something different, like health spas or something similar rather than massage parlors or studios. Seems to me that sort of defeats the whole purpose of licensing.

In CA is it OK to give a massage in the nude if there are no sex acts involved? I've been told there are very upscale health spas in CA where everyone is nude.

That impersonating a dog plea could be useful for a lot of charges.

FONDL, I may have led you on a little when I told you that I massage my boyfriend(s) nude, this is true - but rare. The licensing in California is so strict and I've got another couple of licenses to protect, which means that I can't afford to get in any trouble. The first year I went to renew my Massage License a vice cop asked me; "have you ever done in prostitution in your massage business". I truthfully answered "no" and thought I better keep it clean because I never want to be put in this position again and have to lie. Once I massaged a guy from the club and he insisted on extras, which I didn't provide; I told him to come to the club and he'd get more there. I understand that Holistic Health Practitioners are not licensed through the vice department. The Korean girls working as prostitutes probably don't have much to lose.

Chitown, did the kid caught urinating in public have his conviction reduced to littering or impersonating a dog? -T

FONDL: Absolutely, accept for one difference. Dancers, massueses, escorts-any woman that you are paying to bring you pleasure (sexual or otherwise) will often act in whatever way they think will get more of your money. I'm not saying this is a bad thing as long as a guy is intelligent enough to understand that.

Yoda, I agree completely. But isn't that true of everyone you meet? Does anybody ever really know another person? I just don't think strippers and massage therapists are any different. You've said that yourself in the past.

FONDL: I agree with you completely. My only point is that you only know what they tell you about themselves. This is the case with any dancer, massues or escort that you meet. It doesn't matter how long you know them for, you will only know what they want you to know.

No, Quicksandman, it's a terrible thing, especially given that conviction for the most likely offenses---soliciting a prostitute, aiding and abetting prostitution, etc.---can subject you to classification and registration as a sex offender. Fortunately, unless you have some long record, a good lawyer could probably plead you to something innocuous, like "disorderly conduct," which may actually carry a heavier fine than what you were doing, but doesn't have all the additional baggage. A couple of years ago, a friend/colleague did this for a client who got caught in a prostitution sting, and was also a high school teacher, and would have lost his job and pension if convicted of soliciting/patronizing a prostitute, as he had been charged with.

You would have to pay a lot of money to the right lawyer, and perhaps a heavy fine, but it would be worth it if you would ever want to go to an open house at the school attended by your kids/grandkids--and not to have to explain why you can't set foot in a schoolhouse.

I have a colleague who just plead out a kid who pissed in public (shielded, he thought, by his car...the state wanted to charge him with public indecency, which also would have put this 19 year old with an overactive bladder in the "sex offender" category.

Yoda, I know this girl about as well as I know anyone who I've spent lots of time with. I've been seeing her regularly for about 3 years, and we always sit and talk a little both before and after the massage. And we talk about a lot more then just massage, I know all about her personal life and she does mine. I'd call us friends, much as I'd refer to a stripper who I'd spent that much time with over that long a period of time and shared both intimate discussions and intimate activities. And I'm a whole lot closer with my ATF. So when either of these girls gives me a massage it's a pretty personal experience.

Different people approach massage differently. At one end of the spectrum it's treated primarily as a medical procedure, which it is. At the other end of the spectrum it's a very intimate and spiritual experience given and received with a loving attitude. That's what I like and I think you have to know each other well to get there. It's kind alike the discussion we've had of having sex vs. making love. Massage at it's best can closely resemble making love but without the sex.

Just to clarify, when I got massages from girls in training within strip clubs, no one got nude and they did a massage to my back, neck, and arms for the most part. I believe the last time I accepted the offer I paid $5 and she did this for about 2 songs or 1.75 songs. She didn't hurry and it felt good.

When the raid happens, what happens to the Johns there? Setting aside disease concerns, an arrest or conviction record is not a good thing, especially if your job depends on it.

In my area there are at least 4 massage places staffed by Koreans. One of them offers FS, BJ and HJ. The other 3 offer HJ only. They all offer body shampoos, steam, sauna and except for the one offering full sex, great massages. In none of the of the other 3 places do the attendants take any clothing off. Some will allow fondling of the boobs and kitty, some won't. Sometimes the HJ is administered during the body shampoo part of the procedure. In Augusta, GA, before they were raided & shut down, one place offered naked body shampoo where she soaped up her naked body and slipped & slid all over your naked body. Full sex was offered. You can still find places in Myrtle Beach that offer massages & full sex.
There are also in my area aromatherapy places offering massage & "stress relief". Some of these offer FS, BJ & HJ. Drawback is no shower in most of them. They giver a perfunctory massage & will get nude & allow touching.
Price at Korean massage parlors is $80/hour for HJ. Tip of $20 is expected. The one offering everything, the massage /body shampoo charge is $60. FS is $140. Aromatherapy places charge $175-$250 for FS with lesser prices for BJ & HJ.
There was an attendant at one of the Korean places that would get you off during the body shampoo portion & then again during the massage portion. She would not give up until you came that 2nd time either!

FONDL: I tend to agree about enjoying it more when you know somebody. But how well do you know them? If you are talking about "knowing" them through repeat visits(the same way I do) you really only know that you like them. Beyond that you know what they choose to tell you about themselves. Everyone is a stranger at least once.

I actually got into this whole massage thing by accident. Several years ago I was looking for a good yoga class and stopped by a nearby wellness center that was having an open house. They had 3 massage therapists there who were giving free mini-massages. I signed up with one of the girls, and what was supposed to be a 10 minute massage turned into 30 minutes because no one was signed up after me. So I sorta felt obligated to book an hour with her, much like you might buy a dance from a girl who had been really nice to you. And that may have been the end of it except that I really liked the girl and she had just bought a townhouse and was setting up a private studio in one of the bedrooms. So I tried that and was hooked - I really enjoyed the increased privacy and intimacy of the new location. There's nothing sexual about it but it is very intimate and spiritual and extremely relaxing. And each time seems a little more intimate than the last, just like a good stripper. And the best part is that my wife approves so there's no sneaking around. And now that my ATF is also a massage therapist, wow.

I feel pretty much the same about massage as I do strippers - I'm not rally interested in being that intimate unless I know the girl and really like her. I need to feel a personal connection to really enjoy it. I'd rather have a legitimate massage from someone I know and like than an erotic massage from a stranger. Much as I'd rather have a lower-contact dance from a girl I really like than higher contact from a stranger. For me my 2 therapists are better than either a health spa or a massage parlor could ever be.

As far as massage or rub girls in clubs, they are just another source of income for the club-just like a shot girl they either pay a shift fee or pay the back per massage. The club makes money, the girl makes a few bucks. I have an old friend who's been a waitress, a bartender, a back rub girl and is now a house mother in a strip club. In strip clubs cross "training" is encouraged. I don't go to massage parlors arund the east coast because the pricing is almost the same a hiring a good escort for an hour. On the west coast their are great dealsto be had and I indulge anytime I am working out there. You can usually have a great time for around $120 to $150.

I've tried legitimate massage, a Korean massage parlor and an "american" massage parlor exactly once each, over 10 years ago. I didn't enjoy the sexual part enough to justify the expense or further research. My latest long-term girlfriend, 2002-04, did legitimate massage. I enjoyed it occasionally, not nearly as often as I could have if I chose to. I didn't especially care for it as a prelude to sex, although it was nice when that happened. Even if I had, or if I liked massage parlors, I don't think it would cut into my interest in strip clubs. It's a completely different appeal, the way I see it.

I have had two professional massages in legitimate clinics.

The first came because I overstepped my workout limits and got unbelievably sore. I didn't care who or what did the massage -- I just needed some RELIEF! My entire neck and shoulder area felt like they had turned to marble from all the lactic acid. So I took the first therapist available -- a man. He got me fixed and back in business.

The second came because I had a lot of emotional stress from dealing with hurricane damage to my house. A lovely lady near my house had a clinic so I booked an appointment. That made a difference.

Interestingly, she warned me about some of the other clinics in the area of the kind others here have described. So if I ever want an erotic massage, I guess I know where to go!

I know of a club in WVa that offers massages. I tried it once and it was terrible, the girl had no idea what she was doing.

Seems to me there are primarily 2 types of massage: the legitimate kind given by a trained therapist, and what you get in a massage parlor (and from some independents.) I wish I knew someone who combines the best features of both - I'm sure they're out there but how do you find one?

Incidently, I've never tried a massage parlor. What's it like, and are they all similar or are there different types?

It seems like more and more clubs are bringing in ladies to do massages. I think clubs are seeing it as a nice option for guys who are just getting out of work and grabbing a drink or two before heading home. I don't think it will ever replace the famed "shot girls" on a busy weekend night, but I like the idea of relieving some stress this way to end a work day.

Yes, but fully clothed (me) in upright sitting position. A few clubs actually have masseuse on property some nights. At various other clubs, have had strippers give massage as introductory prelude, or as post LD thank you. Some dancers are every bit as good as some masseuses( some went to MT class, 1 was studying to be chiropractor). In some cases, just asked for massage in lieu of LD.

I've gotten two or three massages from some females studying massage that happened to run into me in strip clubs before. I didn't know if they were dancers or not. Other than getting grabbed on the street by some Korean girls and taken into their massage parlor, I haven't really been to a real massage parlor except one time to pick up an older relative who had received a massage. I never heard about any nudity in this type of massage place. However the girl looked very nice and my relative told me a bit late (months later) that she was actually looking for a new boyfriend and was interested in me. I only saw her for a few seconds. Since she lives in Columbia, it would be a long drive 1.5 hours to go see her but I believe she got back with her old boyfriend. I've thought about going to a massage parlor but usually seem busy. Every once in a while, a dancer I don't know massages me at no charge but sometimes they want me to massage them back. I'm happy to give free breast and nipple massages. :)

Lately I've been giving the dancers some massages when they sit with me at the club. At first it was fun & kinda sexy, but now they are beginning to expect it all the time, and just plop down next to me in the "massage position" as soon as my ass hits the vinyl booth. It has helped bring new girls over to me, tho, and they tend to show their appreciation in wonderful ways, so I guess it's a good tradeoff. At least until my hands start cramping up.

I've had several good to great experiences with massage therapy drop-outs who offered FBSM with release. Sometimes the massage part is close to prfessional levels and somtimes it's not. Either way, it's a hot nude or semi nude lady with her hands all over you. This can't be a bad thing....

Finaly davids admits he dosen't know something. The fact that it is can he "get off" or not seems like a problem for him to take to his doctor. Next step is to admit everything you say is bullshit. Then you will be cured.

Three of the top strippers I knew (as in gave the best dances) were massage therapy students. Massage may be a good idea.

Don't know if you can "get off" during a massage though so it may not be everyone's cup of tea.

Hmmm... Strategies for picking up massage therapists. That might be a good avenue for future research. Don't think ANYONE has studied that one yet.