Just for Fun on a Friday. Not very stripclub related.

working to make TUSCL a safer, more interesting place

Parodyman, it's not just jazz that sometimes makes me blue, there are certain pop tunes that I associate with the happiest/saddest/most-emotionally-intense time of my life. I can barely stand to listen to the very early Beatles for very long, and if I hear Peter, Paul and Mary's "That's What you Get for Loving Me" more than once there will be tears running down my face. If I had to choose an all-time-favorite song that would probably be it. Although "Me and Bobby McGee" would be a close second. And Chandler, I do like some of today's music, I could listen to Mariah Carey all day long, I think she's the best singer ever - ever hear her version of "O Holy Night"? - although I think Karen Carpenter, who had the sweetest voice ever, is a close second. I liked the Ink Spots too, but don't forget the Platters. - "When the twilight is gone, and no song birds are singing ..." Wow, music doesn't get any better than that. I guess my tastes are pretty eclectic. But just to make this strip club related, I remember two different jazz clubs that closed and became strip clubs - the Metropole on Broadway a few blocks north of Times Square - I saw Maynard Ferguson there - and a place In Lancaster PA called the Coronet which is where I once saw Dizzy Gillespi. Thanks, guys, this has been a real trip down memory lane and I don't do that very often.

I'd like to know how heavy metal fits into all of this. Is that like another parallel universe?

Imagine this. In 50 years people's grandparents will be nostalgic for rap music.

I meant to add that any question of the relative quality of black music vs. white is completely overshadowed for me by the vitality that has resulted from the interplay between the two. I think it's obvious that the popular music of the past 100 years we all know and love would be unthinkable without contributions and shared ideas from both black and white musicians.

FONDL, I thought I was done with this thread, but I can't resist chiming in on what you said about black music. It has always been closest to my heart, and I've often felt something sorely missing in most white pop music. As you-know-who would say, it ain't got that swing. My first musical heroes were James Brown (check my email address), Marvin Gaye, and a little later, the Jackson 5. As much as I lived and loved punk rock and its aftermath, at the time I would rather have been dancing to Chic or Funkadelic. I have to take exception to your statement about music today, because I feel that it is as vital as ever in the form of rap, R&B, many styles of dance music, as well as in black British, Jamaican ragga, African and other related scenes. It still has the same feeling, you just need to listen a little differently, and cut through some of the surface clutter.

I agree with your earlier assessment of Count Basie's band, too. Anybody who digs old, bluesy rock 'n' roll like Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley and early Rolling Stones should be able to enjoy Basie's pre-war recordings from the word go. Those cats rocked like a motherfucker. (Pardon me if I appeared to fall into the obnoxious boomer habit of justifying older styles by saying they "made Rock possible". I didn't mean it that way at all.)

FONDL, I envy you for your memories. A lot of those are musicians I could have seen if I'd appreciated them like I do now, even Duke Ellington. It's too bad your regrets make you sad when you hear jazz. I knocked around in a few rock bands as a kid, but I never liked the grind of being in band. And I can't say I had any talent to regret squandering, except maybe as a dancer.

Oh, and I know and like The Coasters, but my all-time fave harmony group is the Ink Spots.

FONDL I definately didn't mean to imply that you were one dimensional. I was merely stating that I hope I didn't sound like I was.

I also can empathise about some of the old favorites taking you back through sad / rough times. It is the same way for me. Music has always been such a big part of my life. I can't remember a day when I didn't have something playing. God how it marks the time and the corisponding events in my life... Oh well - oh hell.

Meant to add that one of the highlights of my college experience was seeing Ray Charles live at Penn State in 1958. When I was watching Stevie Wonder before the Superbowl I kept hoping they'd cancel the game and just let him play for a couple more hours. He's the true musical genius of our time. I was reminded the other day when I heard a terrible remake of one of their tunes that my all-time favorite singing group was the Coasters. Remember them?

Chitown, I've heard your mother's complaint before - it always seems to me that when I was a kid we were supposed to be seen and not heard and adults ruled, now it's the opposite.

Parodyman, I'm not one-dimensional either, I enjoy all kinds of music as long as it's well done. In fact I rarely listen to jazz anymore and am not familiar with the more recent stars, for two reasons. First, my wife doesn't like jazz. But more important, listening to jazz makes me sad because there's a part of me that will always wish I had chosen that path when I got to the big fork in the road. I know I was born with a very rare talent and to just let it go, I'll always wonder what might have been.

This thread has brought back some memories that I thought I'd forgotten. Like seeing Duke Ellington and Billy Eckstine at the old Valley Forge Music Fair. Like seeing Ella and Oscar peterson there years later. Like seeing Fats Domino, a huge favorite of mine, in the early 50s along with a bunch of other rock stars of that era including I think Buddy Holly although I was never a fan of his. In fact even as a kid I always preferred black R&B to white R&R which I thought was mostly crap until Elvis came along. I still think most of the white stuff is crap. (My wife says I must have a grandparent I haven't told her about.)

Sorry to go on about race and I hope no one is offended, but race and music are tightly intertwined for me. I'm sure most of you have no idea what things were like before the mid-60s but it was very different. When I was in college we had a black guitar player for awhile who was a close friend of mine. One night we were driving back to Penn State from a gig at Lehigh University and we stopped in a club in Harrisburg for a drink (none of us were 21 but nobody cared in those days.) The black guy wouldn't get out of the car, saying he didn't feel like a drink, while the rest of us went in. It wasn't until years later that I realized he was afraid they wouldn't serve him because he was black and he didn't want to embarass the rest of us. I used to play at jam sessions at his fraternity on Saturday afternoons - there were probably 300 people there and I was the only white guy and I loved it, there was so much rhythm and energy in the room, it's hard to describe. Later when I was in the navy I used to hang out in a black club in Newport that always had great R&B bands from Boston and Providence. Usually a Hammond organ, tenor sax, drums, and male singer, with a couple of female singers backing him up. Some of the best music I've ever heard. I even sat in once. I can't imagine doing somethng like that today. How times change. Jazz bands were probably the first area of our society that was integrated. It breaks my heart to hear what passes for music in the black community today.

I think you guys have convinced me that the 60's started politically with the Kennedy assasination, not his election. Still, you say JFK, I think "New frontier" which I still see as a very 60's thing. The whole image of young idealism that has been built up around Kennedy seems very 60is-ish.

Chitown makes a good point about Watergate being the beginning of the 70's. I still think of the 60's being bracketed by Kennedy and Nixon, so I keep the Nixon presidency in the 60's. Worth some thought though...

The 90's starting with Clinton is something I've argued about with friends, but I still think all the politics we remember started with the clash between Clinton and Gingrich, so I think we need both in power before the politics of the 90's fully metasticizes.

As for punk, I just recall that in the late 70's and early 80's a lot of friends insisted on the "importance" of some really bad music because of the "authenticity". The bands and fans all started their revolutionary poses and played and went to their anti-nuke rallies, showted a lot about the establishment. Meanwhile I liked bands like The Talking Heads and The Police, who were part of the same type of back to basics move the punks were but certainly weren't punk bands, but were far better musicians and wrote a lot better songs. They and others of the era have survived a lot better.

FONDL - I don't want to come off as one dimensional. I do enjoy all kinds of music. Now I listen mostly to rock and blues but do enjoy jazz when I hear it. I just wish I was more educated on the subject.

FONDL, judging by the time that you were in college, you are a couple of years older than my parents (unless you were twelve when you went to college). Reading your comments on the sartorial facets of the fifties reminds me of one of the complaints of my mother, who graduated from high school in 1960: When she was a kid, kids were expected to dress like grown-ups. By the time she became a grown-up, grown-ups were expected to dress like kids.

Confining my analysis to decades in which I have actually lived, I would say that

The 60s started with Kennedy's assassination (remember, this was a man who ran on the basis that the US was "UNDERmilitarized, and governed on the basis of tax cuts);

From a political point of view, the 70s started with Watergate. From an economic point of view, the 70s, with their spirit of pessimism and defeatism, started with hyperinflation and the Arab oil embargo, both about 1973.

From a political point of view, the 80s started with the ascent of Ronaldus Magnus and the expulsion of six leading liberals from the Senate. From an economic point of view, the 80s started with the bull market that immediately followed the "tough medicine" recession of 1882.

The nineties started with Bill Clinton.

The current decade started on 9/11.

Chandler, it's probably more accurate to say I was semi-pro. I played with 2 bands all through college - a rock group and a jazz group, rock to make money, jazz to enjoy. Our jazz pianist was the brother-in-law of Jon Eardely, who played with Jerry Mulligan when he wasn't in jail on drug charges, and he sat in with us a couple of times. Then after college I played with a wedding band for many years on weekends.

I agree with you, jazz should be heard live in a small smoke-filled club. I had an apartment in Manhattan at one time and lived close to both the Five Spot and the Blue Note and hung out in both regularly. I heard many top groups there including favorites Art Blakey and Zoot Simms. The only favorite group I missed was Max Roach-Clifford Brown probably because Brown died so young. The best jazz trumpet ever.

I also lived not far from Hershey PA when I was young and in those days they had big bands all summer long and I used to go every weekend. My favorite was Stan Kenton who I probably saw 8 or 10 times. His lead alto, Lenny Neihaus, was just wonderful, and I loved their arrangements which, with the possible exception of Count Basie (who I saw a couple of times also but not at Hershey - they only booked white bands), are the best ever for a big band. "Sorrento" with Vido Musso on Tenor, wow!

I started out on clarinet and picked up tenor sax in high school, which is why Benny Goodman and Coleman Hawkins were such favorites. I eventually switched to keyboards when the sax went out of style. At one point I thought of making music a career but I saw too many musicians better than me who never went anywhere. It's a tough way to make a living.

AN, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about punk, cause I don't remember any of it that way, right down the line. I believe DIY was punk's triumph. I don't remember anybody giving two shits about authenticity or how they compared to arena bands, or whether what they were doing lasted. But I think tons of old punk still sounds absolulely beautiful in all its ugly magnificence. And, finally, The Police (?!) don't have a thing to do with it in my book.

FONDL, thanks for sharing that, seriously. I think that jazz more than any other type of music is best appreciated live, preferably in a small nightclub. There have been a few periods when I got in the habit of catching live jazz with friends. No big names, but there are -- or were not too long ago -- so many talented, passionate, unkown musicians out there who should have been big, playing great music for little pay wherever they could get work. Not many jazz records, however, have had much effect on me, other than a few of the usual suspects.

Sure, I've heard Coleman Hawkins, but it's hard nowadays to appreciate the impact he had in his time. Probably because the saxophone style he originated became so widely adopted that it sounds like the only natural way to play. Frankly, my ear for even identifying individual players is pretty poor, let alone appreciating what makes some of them special.

FONDL, did you say you were a professional musician? What instrument, and what kind of engagements, if you don't mind telling?

Cahndler, two true stories that I may have told before. I was in the navy stationed in Newport, RI, back in the days when Newport was a navy town, and I was dating a girl from Providence. We used to hang out in a little bar that sometimes had live jazz on weekends. One time they had a sing announcing Coleman Hawkins and I thonght no it couldn't possibly be THE Coleman Hawkins but we went anyway and it sure as hell was. There were only about a dozen customers and on one of his breaks he joined us at our table and I bought him a couple of drinks. Don't know if you ever heard of him but he was one of the all-time greats from the 30's and one of my childhood idols - it would be the equivalent of a kid nuts about baseball sitting with Ted Williams or Stan Musiel. He died a few years later.

Years later my partents called and asked if my wife and I wanted to go see a free outdoor concer ot the Beeny Goodman band. Of course no one expected the man himself to be there, he had been retired for many years. But he did live in the area so just maybe ... Second set starts and out he comes onto the stage and we're sitting on the lawn about 20 feet away, hardly anyone is there. He played nonstop for nearly 4 hours. It may have been the last concert he ever played.

I used to go to top jazz clubs all the time - Bluenote Cafe, Village Vanguard, and a couple others who's names I've forgotten, and I've seen nearly all the jazz greats. But nothing comes close to those two times. My two all-time idols playing private concerts just for me.

Chandler, I agree, and that was punk's fatal conceit. The DIY cama about because rock had gone from clubs and bars to mega-bands playing with 10,000 synthesizers in arenas. The DIY attitude was "we can't be that, and don't want to be that." In the end though they adopted their own pose of superiority based on their "authenticity". It became about cool when that was supposedly part of what they rebelled against. The music that lasted from that era, The Talking Heads, The Police, The Clash, they either were good musicians or became good musicians.

FONDL, I see no reason why you shouldn't share your enthusiasm for jazz with us. I'm certainly interested in you experiences as a player and a listener. I'm no expert, but I've enjoyed listening to a bit of Art Blakey and that era. I used to know a very good jazz DJ for a public radio station and his friend/mentor, who had written for Down Beat and Blue Note and had an amazing collection of records and memorabilia filling his entire basement.

I don't know, AN, DIY (do it yourself) was pretty central to punk. The idea that a novice kid with the right attitude and cool hair is better to have in your band than some bore who's spent his youth studying instrumental technique.

AN, in your first post you were talking about the various phases in mainstream culture since WWII. Now you're talking counter-culture. Punk never made it into the mainstream. Personally I was (and still am) a big fan of hard-bop jazz (eg. the Jazz Messengers or Max Roach-Clifford Brown or Dizzy.) That's never been mainstream either.

FONDL, I agree, but something can heavily influence the mainstream without being mainstream. As I said, a lot of the 80's styles were influenced by the punks even though they were a sanitized version. The hippie and the flowerchild were by no means mainstream in the 60's but they are iconic and helped define the era in many ways. The fashion of the time certainly took in their influences.

As for my talk about musicians in the punk movement, there's bad, and there's bad. The Ramones never needed more than 3 chords one hook and 3 minutes to make a great song. The Clash were actually very talented writers...sometimes. I don't think it was so much the virtuosity of the mainstream rock the punks reacted to, it was the pomposity and pretention. In the end though the punks succumed to their own pompous pose as revolutionaries.

I love 70s punk, I just can't listen to it anymore. My ears have been numbed to it by 28 years of dreadful latecomers. (Say, there's a band name!) AN, you probably don't need to be told that virtuosity was the antithesis of the punk aesthetic, so if you're expecting to find "good musicianship" you're missing the whole point. I think I know what you mean, that you can only listen to so much amateurism passing for inspiration, and when it's bad it's REALLY bad. But I think it's always a mistake to judge any artisitic style by the quantity of crap it produces.

Punk died a quick, merciful death because, of course, it was a dead end. As with most styles, however, I find punk's pure expression a lot less interesting in the long run than the hybrids that grew out of it. Obviously, the UK and NYC post-punk styles, and all the descendants that touch on vertually everything still being done. It's become a cliche to say it, but I hear as much of the punk spirit today in some platinum selling rap, R&B and pop as in any indie label screamos with distorted guitars.

We could, but let's not. I was just kidding in my first line, as I'm sure you're aware. Burlesque and kitties would be criminally off-topic here.

One other change that I'd make to the original list, and I think it applies pretty much across the board: what we think of as the 60's didn't really take hold until about the time of Kennedy's assasination. His election didn't really change much, he pretty much followed the policies of his predecessors, it was his death that really caused a huge change. In fact what's amusing is that his agenda was almost identical to what the Republican party stands for today. By today's standards he was pretty conservative. In fact if he were around today he'd be considered part of the religious right. And he was the leading liberal of his day.

Chandler, the thread does cary a warning label. I guess we could bring it closer to stripping by discussing the type of adult entertainment available. The 50's had berlesque clubs, the 60's go-go's, the 70's the first adult theaters, the 80's ... I dunno, when was the lapdance invented?

Maybe we could discuss kitty styles, like in the 60's unseen, in the 70's a full bush, the 80's trimmed, the 90's partially shaved and trimmed to the landing strip, and in the 00's shaved completely.

Pretty fucking off topic, AN. But what the hell, I don't wanna be anti-fun...

I favor a view, not too different from yours, that each decade is culturally split roughly in the middle. Especially since the 60s, each decade has had two distinct characters, neither of which can represent the whole 10 years. Were the 60's the time when everything was trim and NEAT? (60-64: skinny ties, pageboys, girl groups, beat groups in matching suits, Brillo boxes) Or when it all got SWIRLY? (65-69: mods then hippies, paisley, bell bottoms, psychedelia)

Sometimes, the first half carries on from the previous decade, popularizing underground and subcultural trends. Then the second half finds its identity, often in reaction to the first half and the previous decade. A sort of dialectic of zeitgeists occurs, sometimes with the reaction occurring in the first half. As often as not, the latter half matches up better with the first half of the following decade. Late 70's disco & punk carries into early 80s new wave synth pop & MTV more than it coheres with early 70s down to earth, back to nature, harvest gold and avocado green.

So, any arbitrary 10-year span makes as much sense as a true decade, and a 5-year unit holds together even better. There's also the 20-year cycle, where the culture of the decade before last predictably gets revived on schedule. It all began with the 50s rock 'n' roll revival of the 70s, and continues to this day with across-the-board 80s revival already losing steam to make way for a 90s revival.

Then there's the theory of a 7-Year Cycle in pop music, which goes: 1956: Elvis 1963: Beatles 1970: Beatles break-up (or ??, I forget) 1977: Punk, Saturday Night Fever 1984: ??, I forget (a year late to be Michael Jackson) 1991: Grunge 1998: Teen Pop 2005: who knows??

I believe this was first advanced after grunge broke, and traced back to '63 & '56. Like virtually all such explanations, it conveniently fits patterns to "important" mileposts after the fact, ignoring bigger trends, the most obvious being the biggest music trend of the past 30 year, rap. It's like conspiracy theories or biblical prophesy claims. And, needless to say, none of this ever has much to do with the way anybody who's not on TV or in magazines actually lives and dresses. But, hey, it's all just for fun and wasting time on a Saturday morning.

I remembered one more fun one. In the 80's I lived in Hawaii on a military base for 4 weeks (just visiting but seemed more like we moved in) (I took an extra long break from Highschool). It was fun. My brother in law said some stupid thief tried to steal a car in front of his house that had a dead battery in it. The thief actually took the time and trouble to go get a good battery and pop it in. However he almost got caught and had to run off leaving the battery. Hawaii had record cold but I enjoyed it. Record cold in Oahu at that time was highs in the upper 60's and lows in the 40's.

The funniest comment I heard from the no weathermen tv stations there was "warning, do not talk to mainlanders about wind chill factors here in Hawaii." It was in the single digits back home and my teacher said she really felt sorry for me when she heard Oahu had record cold at 54 degrees.

As I was growing up, I remember lots of strange weather. I saw floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, hail, and even a volcano erupting among other strange things. My older brother has had really bad luck when it comes to the weather. I saw the second major eruption of Mt. St. Helens and we would have been sneaking onto the volcano that day to see how close we could get but his wife had already made plans to go somewhere else that day. I could see Mt. St. Helens from atop Mt. Rainer venting some steam and ash the day before. My older brother had the joy of witnessing the first and major eruption back in 1980.

I believe it was also in the 80's I got to see a tornado form nearby Cape Kennedy from the tour bus. I wish I remember which shuttle was getting prepared to launch. I was thinking it might have blown up.

In the 1990's I saw a freak storm in southern Florida in July make in rain all day and turn what should have been a hot day to a cold day with temps in the 50's.

I once lived in NC and only went to the outer banks once or twice. The first time I went, a storm appeared and flooded everything which made my father not a very happy camper since all the hotels were packed and prices went up.

In college I once had a dustdevil form around me while I was walking back to my dorm. It was only about 5 or 6 feet in diameter and I was in the exact center and it moved with me for about 10 to 30 seconds until I reached the area next to the building. I didn't care for all the dust I ran into though when I walked out of it.

In the 80's when I was in highschool, I once had a tornado fly right over my head above our house and knock down some huge pines at roof level. That wasn't funny.

As a little kid, I remember something strange my mother told me. Just think of the things you might imagine if your mother told you she keeps track of the age of the anti-christ because he was born the same year as you. I suppose if I told enough stories and had something strange happen, someone might get spooked and that would be amusing. I don't know, maybe getting told something like that as a little kid makes me remember every single little strange thing.

At least I haven't seen any glowing red light bulbs or doors opening by themselves lately.

AN - Punk rock was (still is) so much more than a fashion statement. I'm sorry for everyone who was the wrong age and missed the boat on what was a truly pure and honest form of expression. (music, art, and politically speaking)

FONDL, You are correct. With the 50's fashion I was going more with the iconic image since I didn't see it. As I said, corrections are welcome.

AN, I'm guessing that you weren't around during the 50's. I don't ever remember seeing a poodle skirt and few guys wore either jeans or leather jackets, it was more like khakis and dress shirts. The 50's were pretty dressy, even for teenagers, except for the greasers who were a small minority and on the outside most places. I was in college at a major state university in the late 50's and on Friday and Saturday nights guys wore khakis, oxford blue dress shirts with button-down collars, very conservative neckties, blue blazers and penny loafers. The rest of the time it was essentially the same outfit with a nice sweater added in cold weather and without the blazers and ties. Jeans were strictly work clothes until the late 60's, I don't think I ever owned a pair in either high school or college. You're confusing the TV/movie recreation of the 50's with reality. What I find remarkable about men's fashions is how little change there has been other than casual wear becoming more accepted in more situations - I could dress exaclty as I did in college today and not look the least bit out of place.

I'd also throw in two other music periods during which first Motown and later old-time rock-and-roll reigned supreme, although I'm not sure when those would begin and end. Otherwise I think what you have is a pretty good reconstruction of the major eras since WWII.

Minnow, I've heard the 60's started with the JFK assasination as a "loss of innocence" too. I still think JFK and Jackie belong to the 60's. Can't put the Cuban Missile Crisis in the 50's.

AN; I've heard of 60's being defined as lasting from JFK assassination in'63 to Watergate '72, the 80's being from Reagan Innauguration(and Iran Hostage return) to the fall of Berlin Wall in '89.

P-man, I know what you mean. There was a very libertarian, if not anarchist streak in the punk movement (although The Clash were pretty much straight pseudo-Marxists). Some of that is a lot of fun, and some has resonance. I think they were right about a lot musically. The morass that pop music had become needed destroying. The preening prima donna pop stars and their arena rock pretentions for the most part were garbage and rock needed a new start, back to the basics. Unfortunately most of the punks weren't very good musicians. The Clash, The Ramones, they did a lot to revive rock from the REO Speedwagon/Styx/Kansas crap that passed for music. The thing is that they (the pop crap) were trying to copy the genuinely talented groups who made the whole Album/big rock show work (like The Who and Led Zepplin). I like a lot of the punk era stuff, but a lot was different just to be different, which made them no better than the AOR/Arena rock pretenders.

Just an opinion, not that I've thought about it a lot.

OUCH! AN, I would think that you would embrace a lot of the ideals of punk. Also it is not dead just driven far underground.

Punk did exist as a style also, and that's what I was talking about. The styles of the 80's were heavily influenced by a suburbanized or "safe" version of the original punks.

As for the music, that was my era, and I'm sorry to say a lot of it really sucked. Some stands the test of time, some still is nostalgic, most just sucked. We could get into the other genres of the time, new wave, ska, etc, but overall punk died a quick, early, and well deserved death in my opinion.