Discussing OTC and extras

Shadowcat: yeah, it just goes right back to normal. In fact, things are sometimes a little looser on the same night after a raid, since the girls know that the raid has already happened! Strange ... or not so strange, if you think about it ...

I don't know how typical Memphis is. I think it varies a lot by city and state. In Michigan, clubs have two authorities to worry about, the local cops and the state Liquor Control Commission. The LCC rules with an iron fist. They definitely watch for sexual activity. The problem is that either sexual or liquor/drug infractions cause the clubs to clamp down on dance mileage for fear of jeopardizing their all-important liquor license. So dancers and customers lose out. It all has a ripple effect. One club in town will get an LCC citation, and the next night, clubs on the other side of town are suddenly all air.

Raids by local cops are driven by political pressure from sherrifs and prosecutors to make headlines. You can mark your calendar for crackdowns to fall on even-numbered election years: 1994, '96 & '06 have been especially bad. Christian organizations don't close down clubs here. Neighborhood or citizen groups petition to keep clubs out or keep new ones from opening, and to get new ordinances passed to make sure adults aren't having too much fun. The LCC actually shuts down clubs - padlocks them overnight for repeated infractions. I'm sure they are influenced, as are the cops, by complaints from concerned citizens, who in turn are inflamed by explicit posts they read on the internet.

I was in Memphis PP when a raid went on, too. I recorded it in one of my reviews. Lucky for me, I too was sitting in the main floor when they closed off the VIP. Strange experience. I guess it could just be the "price of doing business" if you know it's coming; but I'd bet it would be a surprise to a LARGE percentage of that club's patrons, to find out the hard way that a lap-dance was not a legal activity in that jurisdiction. With so many people getting 'em and so much going on at PP and many other area clubs, how on earth could they think it was outside law's bounds?

This is a bit of a "dirty trick" by the powers-that-be, to be happy enough with the revenue from a cornucopia of misdemeanors. Kind of like preferring to keep the speed limit or the no-parking zones poorly posted, so that more people get caught, pay the fines, and continue to support the roads and patrolmen as a sort of ancillary and non-voter-approved tax. I'm not sure how I stand on the whole issue ... as a self-professed "libertarian," for example. I think letting speeders continue to assume it's OK to speed (and yes, I -- like most everyone else -- drive about 8 to 10 mph over the highway limit) could be construed as INCREASING public danger, for example. Money from the Jag is good; but if he tail-ends grandma?

I remember when Mons Venus in Tampa was really in the forefront of a "civil liberties" protest in about 2002. Public outcry around election time had really gotten vice to crack down on all lap dancing, and Mons' owner Joe Redner chose to respond by flaunting his offerings. Rather than keeping it under wraps, he put up on his sign on the highway, "Still lapping" and he publicly aknowledged that he would pay the fine of any dancer or patron that got cited in his club.

Chandler: yes, your factual statements are probably accurate. As I said, I was only offering hypothetical possibilities, not legal certitude. The concern for me about internet posts, in general (aside from the fact that mine seems to appear three times in a row, OOPS, sorry!) is that some people post mere hypothetical interpretations UNDER THE NAME of legal certitude. As long as all of us are aware that things must be tested in court, that the 'net is new, that your best defense is not to ever need a defense in the first place ... well, then, we're better off. Much better off, than if we are running about kidding ourselves, with "I know I can get away with ACTION-X or SERVICE-Y because some dude on the internet told me that I could use a WRIT OF JURISPRUDENCE against their ESTOPPEL DE SINE QUA NON blah blah blah ..."

Book Guy: All kinds of nighmarish scenarios are possible. I think it's better to base the precautions you take on what is probable. For example, email is generally far safer than posting on a public board, despite your characterization. The greater risk with using email is not that your ISP will share it with the cops - it's that you will share details with somebody you don't know well who emails you for info in bad faith.

For the most part, I think cops already have a pretty good idea of what goes on in each club without any help from the internet. So I agree that the attention detailed reviews draw to a club is as liable to be damaging as the details themselves. However, I don't agree with your claim about posts reporting that you can't get extras. Although I think I see your point about how they could be construed, isn't that yet another hypothetical possibility rather than any realistic risk to be concerned about? I've never heard of internet posts, no matter how they are construed, being used to obtain warrants affecting clubs.

My comments. This is information I gathered through several conversations with lawyers and a few strip-club owners, when there were several cases pending in the Tampa Bay area regarding stripping, prostitution, and the like. It's just my opinion, conglomerated from those various lawyers' and others' opinions. And none of it is legally TESTED. This is what smart people PREDICT would (or, might, or could) happen.

First, no case has yet tested the "presumption of privacy" on email OR on internet bulletin boards. Many people who use the email escape ("if you want to know more details, just send me an email") are using a flimsy escape. Details sent by email might actualyl be MORE admissable as indicative of guilt, because they are assumed to be factual statements and therefore representative of the author's true opinions intended to be communicated accurately, rather than as "posturing" (which any bulletin board post could be construed as) or as "fiction."

Not that this is NECESSARILY the case. It's just, another way the interpretation could be twisted.

Second, it doesn't matter what can or can't be proven by an internet post or by an email. The situation really matters less, for "legal" truth, as much as merely, for attracting attention. Any police officer who needs a good excuse to go raiding a club that is suspected of prostitution, can use OUR ATTENTION as sufficient probable cause.

Here are examples. If we all of us mention over and over that a club offers extras on a regular basis, well, that's VERY bad for a club. The Treasures club in Houston has a lot of reports of this nature. So too Seductions in Niagara Falls, but that club is in Canada so I don't know the specifics about its legal situation.

Then there are clubs where no mention is made of extras. In fact, mention might even be made that "you can't get extras here." Unfortunately, THIS IS JUST AS BAD for a club. Any attorney working for the jurisdiction who needs probable cause for a warrant, or any vice squad that wants to plan a raid, can certainly get it by a judge.

That's right. It doesn't matter if you mention prostitution or not. Or even if you mention prostitution in a negative sense. "Extras don't happen at this club" is something that a DA can put in an application for a warrant as "prostitution is regularly discussed in association with this club." See? Sneaky little lawyers ...

Of course, that probable cause might not stand up, during an eventual court case. Sneaky lawyers working for the other side can make it go away. But that will be a year later, after club patrons and dancers have been cited, the club has hired a lawyer (who doesn't represent any of the patrons or dancers), and so forth and so on. It isn't eventual exoneration that you want, it's escape from ANY legal annoyance in the first place.

Here's another thing. Writing under a pseudonym is not legal safety either. If in any way the police have better computer skills than you do, and they do find out your pseudonym -- which can't be TOO hard, given server logs and IP addresses -- then, you are that pseudonym.

The only solution to that, is to never attend strip clubs, never read about them on the internet, never write about them on the internet.

Too late, for every one of us. :)

Which isn't to say we're going to be prsecuted on the basis of TUSCL. I am not, as I said, a lawyer or any other form of legal expert. But I do suggest something.

You can't live a prophylactic life. The best way to avoid getting in trouble with the authorities, is to not give the authorities any trouble. There are situations in which "they" go about "looking the other way" and there are situations in which "they" don't. Choose the former. Learn to read the difference. Go about your life as a productive, straightforward member of society, know when you are kidding yourself and society and know when you are being honest with yourself and society (and by the way, those are the only two options; mixing them up doesn't work), don't lead a double life, and take the knocks as they come.

Which is why I feel free to discuss OTC and extras. I do it "discreetly" (or is that, "discretely"?) and politely. I name names only in a negative context ("she claimed she would do X, didn't, and took my money; her name is _____"). And I move on.

Ever seen the review boards associated with the Mitchell Brothers O'Farrell Theater in San Francisco. Whole databases of what she does, who she is, what her website is, how much it cost, whether or not the author of the review has seen her before, what time of day. This isn't legal. But there is a "gentlemen's truce" between vice squads and Johns in San Francisco, right now, at least in that particular department. It may change tomorrow.

Get to know the gentlemen's truces.

If I ever happened to stumble across a situation whhere I was the beneficiary of extras I would never publicise the fact anywhere. Wouldn't mention the club, the girl or the acts. I don't look upon anyone with envy at their exploits and I don't care anyone to know juss what it is I do inside. If some people feel the need to bloat their own ego by trumpeting their accomplishments good for them and that's their decision to make but actions do have consequences and unless you can be sure there will be no adverse effects I believe silence would be golden.

My comments. This is information I gathered through several conversations with lawyers and a few strip-club owners, when there were several cases pending in the Tampa Bay area regarding stripping, prostitution, and the like. It's just my opinion, conglomerated from those various lawyers' and others' opinions. And none of it is legally TESTED. This is what smart people PREDICT would (or, might, or could) happen.

First, no case has yet tested the "presumption of privacy" on email OR on internet bulletin boards. Many people who use the email escape ("if you want to know more details, just send me an email") are using a flimsy escape. Details sent by email might actualyl be MORE admissable as indicative of guilt, because they are assumed to be factual statements and therefore representative of the author's true opinions intended to be communicated accurately, rather than as "posturing" (which any bulletin board post could be construed as) or as "fiction."

Not that this is NECESSARILY the case. It's just, another way the interpretation could be twisted.

Second, it doesn't matter what can or can't be proven by an internet post or by an email. The situation really matters less, for "legal" truth, as much as merely, for attracting attention. Any police officer who needs a good excuse to go raiding a club that is suspected of prostitution, can use OUR ATTENTION as sufficient probable cause.

Here are examples. If we all of us mention over and over that a club offers extras on a regular basis, well, that's VERY bad for a club. The Treasures club in Houston has a lot of reports of this nature. So too Seductions in Niagara Falls, but that club is in Canada so I don't know the specifics about its legal situation.

Then there are clubs where no mention is made of extras. In fact, mention might even be made that "you can't get extras here." Unfortunately, THIS IS JUST AS BAD for a club. Any attorney working for the jurisdiction who needs probable cause for a warrant, or any vice squad that wants to plan a raid, can certainly get it by a judge.

That's right. It doesn't matter if you mention prostitution or not. Or even if you mention prostitution in a negative sense. "Extras don't happen at this club" is something that a DA can put in an application for a warrant as "prostitution is regularly discussed in association with this club." See? Sneaky little lawyers ...

Of course, that probable cause might not stand up, during an eventual court case. Sneaky lawyers working for the other side can make it go away. But that will be a year later, after club patrons and dancers have been cited, the club has hired a lawyer (who doesn't represent any of the patrons or dancers), and so forth and so on. It isn't eventual exoneration that you want, it's escape from ANY legal annoyance in the first place.

Here's another thing. Writing under a pseudonym is not legal safety either. If in any way the police have better computer skills than you do, and they do find out your pseudonym -- which can't be TOO hard, given server logs and IP addresses -- then, you are that pseudonym.

The only solution to that, is to never attend strip clubs, never read about them on the internet, never write about them on the internet.

Too late, for every one of us. :)

Which isn't to say we're going to be prsecuted on the basis of TUSCL. I am not, as I said, a lawyer or any other form of legal expert. But I do suggest something.

You can't live a prophylactic life. The best way to avoid getting in trouble with the authorities, is to not give the authorities any trouble. There are situations in which "they" go about "looking the other way" and there are situations in which "they" don't. Choose the former. Learn to read the difference. Go about your life as a productive, straightforward member of society, know when you are kidding yourself and society and know when you are being honest with yourself and society (and by the way, those are the only two options; mixing them up doesn't work), don't lead a double life, and take the knocks as they come.

Which is why I feel free to discuss OTC and extras. I do it "discreetly" (or is that, "discretely"?) and politely. I name names only in a negative context ("she claimed she would do X, didn't, and took my money; her name is _____"). And I move on.

Ever seen the review boards associated with the Mitchell Brothers O'Farrell Theater in San Francisco. Whole databases of what she does, who she is, what her website is, how much it cost, whether or not the author of the review has seen her before, what time of day. This isn't legal. But there is a "gentlemen's truce" between vice squads and Johns in San Francisco, right now, at least in that particular department. It may change tomorrow.

Get to know the gentlemen's truces.

My comments. This is information I gathered through several conversations with lawyers and a few strip-club owners, when there were several cases pending in the Tampa Bay area regarding stripping, prostitution, and the like. It's just my opinion, conglomerated from those various lawyers' and others' opinions. And none of it is legally TESTED. This is what smart people PREDICT would (or, might, or could) happen.

First, no case has yet tested the "presumption of privacy" on email OR on internet bulletin boards. Many people who use the email escape ("if you want to know more details, just send me an email") are using a flimsy escape. Details sent by email might actualyl be MORE admissable as indicative of guilt, because they are assumed to be factual statements and therefore representative of the author's true opinions intended to be communicated accurately, rather than as "posturing" (which any bulletin board post could be construed as) or as "fiction."

Not that this is NECESSARILY the case. It's just, another way the interpretation could be twisted.

Second, it doesn't matter what can or can't be proven by an internet post or by an email. The situation really matters less, for "legal" truth, as much as merely, for attracting attention. Any police officer who needs a good excuse to go raiding a club that is suspected of prostitution, can use OUR ATTENTION as sufficient probable cause.

Here are examples. If we all of us mention over and over that a club offers extras on a regular basis, well, that's VERY bad for a club. The Treasures club in Houston has a lot of reports of this nature. So too Seductions in Niagara Falls, but that club is in Canada so I don't know the specifics about its legal situation.

Then there are clubs where no mention is made of extras. In fact, mention might even be made that "you can't get extras here." Unfortunately, THIS IS JUST AS BAD for a club. Any attorney working for the jurisdiction who needs probable cause for a warrant, or any vice squad that wants to plan a raid, can certainly get it by a judge.

That's right. It doesn't matter if you mention prostitution or not. Or even if you mention prostitution in a negative sense. "Extras don't happen at this club" is something that a DA can put in an application for a warrant as "prostitution is regularly discussed in association with this club." See? Sneaky little lawyers ...

Of course, that probable cause might not stand up, during an eventual court case. Sneaky lawyers working for the other side can make it go away. But that will be a year later, after club patrons and dancers have been cited, the club has hired a lawyer (who doesn't represent any of the patrons or dancers), and so forth and so on. It isn't eventual exoneration that you want, it's escape from ANY legal annoyance in the first place.

Here's another thing. Writing under a pseudonym is not legal safety either. If in any way the police have better computer skills than you do, and they do find out your pseudonym -- which can't be TOO hard, given server logs and IP addresses -- then, you are that pseudonym.

The only solution to that, is to never attend strip clubs, never read about them on the internet, never write about them on the internet.

Too late, for every one of us. :)

Which isn't to say we're going to be prsecuted on the basis of TUSCL. I am not, as I said, a lawyer or any other form of legal expert. But I do suggest something.

You can't live a prophylactic life. The best way to avoid getting in trouble with the authorities, is to not give the authorities any trouble. There are situations in which "they" go about "looking the other way" and there are situations in which "they" don't. Choose the former. Learn to read the difference. Go about your life as a productive, straightforward member of society, know when you are kidding yourself and society and know when you are being honest with yourself and society (and by the way, those are the only two options; mixing them up doesn't work), don't lead a double life, and take the knocks as they come.

Which is why I feel free to discuss OTC and extras. I do it "discreetly" (or is that, "discretely"?) and politely. I name names only in a negative context ("she claimed she would do X, didn't, and took my money; her name is _____"). And I move on.

Ever seen the review boards associated with the Mitchell Brothers O'Farrell Theater in San Francisco. Whole databases of what she does, who she is, what her website is, how much it cost, whether or not the author of the review has seen her before, what time of day. This isn't legal. But there is a "gentlemen's truce" between vice squads and Johns in San Francisco, right now, at least in that particular department. It may change tomorrow.

Get to know the gentlemen's truces.

Bones wrote:

When dancers give ultra high mileage, i.e., more than the club allows, then she's taking a change. I believe that whatever a dancer risks in her stage performance or VIP skills, she has to assume responsibility for, whether it remains private or publicized.<

You're correct that the responsibility falls on the dancer. She's the one who can get fired or busted if she's outed by a faceless name on the internet. The person who outs her risks nothing. The issue is whether or not this is a good idea.

I'm sorry if you don't agree with my reasoning, but confidentiality does not play a role in my extra curricular activities with the dancers.<

On the contrary, it plays a crucial role. The activities you boast about would not be possible without it. You just choose to disregard it.

(FONDL): I seriously doubt that law enforcement agencies read out material, as they have more important issues to attend to other than what goes on in a strip club. And even if they did read out reviews and discussion posts, it our word against theres, and they can't prove what we state is FACT!<

Bones: First, you're mistaken. The fact is that LE does monitor strip club boards like ours. It has been confirmed many times over the past decade. Not necessarily every review is read in every community, but it happens enough that you can't dismiss it. Sure, they have better things to do, but they read them anyway. Who knows, maybe they enjoy it. Same goes for club management, neighborhood groups and dancers' SOs. Just a couple of weeks ago, Book Guy pointed out a Memphis anti-stripping activist who works with prosecutors whose claims could only be based on TUSCL ratings. Naming names can get dancers in trouble. Period.

Second, cops don't use reviews as evidence. They use them as leads to raid clubs and bust dancers. They don't need to prove what the facts are. Their word carries the day in court.

If members don't care to here such details, then SKIP that review and go on.<

We know. Not the issue. For us to skip them doesn't undo the damage.

I will always believe that what I pay for in a club, i.e., cover, drinks, tips, LDs, ITC, OTC, etc., gives me the right to disclosed whatever information about the performer I so desire.<

I'll ask you again. What gives you that idea?

A SC is a "public" place, so whatever goes on inside could and should be public.<

The main entry to the club is open to the public, however the areas where activities we're discussing take place definitely are not. Why do you think they call them private dances? Don't you realize that if things were the way you think they should be, you'd be lucky to get an airdance?

I tend to tone down my escapades by using terms like "willy", "Mr Happy", not dick, cock, etc.<

And this fools who?

As far as strippers asking their names not to be mentioned, I don't even let them know that I am on a ROAD TRIP journey, visiting their club. It would be a bias review, at least, if I informed them of my reason for visiting. I never go up to a stripper and say that I'm going to publicize their skills or performance.>

The idea is to tell them after the dance, not before, if you're going to ask permission to include their name.

The only time I DON'T mention their names, is when THEY do know me, and know I am a strip club website member, and REQUEST I don't use their names. Another reason I wouldn't disclose their identity is if I know I am going to return to them for continuous service.<

All this seems to indicate is that you know what you're doing could be against their wishes and could get them in trouble, and that you only name names when you know you can get away with it, and you won't be around to suffer the consequences.

(Bones, forgive me if some of the following is tediously obvious, but much of what you've written is as though you are unaware of some basic concepts behind this issue.)

Without privacy and anonymity, strip clubs as we know them (and in fact the whole sex industry) could not exist. Strippers use stage names to keep customers from intruding on their private lives, and to help hide what they do from parents and neighbors. Customers conceal their habits from SOs and co-workers. We post here under aliases to keep our clubbing identities from being connected to our real names.

Although there's always some risk of exposure, if dancers and customers weren't reasonably assured of remaining anonymous, there would be a lot fewer strippers working, fewer guys paying, fewer reviews posted, and mileage would wither to nothing. Whether you recognize it or not, you, Bones, benefit tremendously from everybody else's cooperation to preserve privacy. We all benefit. There are a few people who feel no need to hide their involvement as customers or dancers, and do away with the cloak of anonymity. However, the choice should be up to them. Outing another person, everybody agrees, is just not done.

Within a club, there are varying degrees of public and private. The stage is lit up and wide open for all to see. Around the main room there may be darker corners and partly concealed booths. Higher mileage dances are done in the most private areas. You pay extra to get dances there, because what happens is known only to you and the dancer. Afterwards, neither of you would dream of telling the whole club in detail about ultra-high mileage. If you tried it, she would probably be furious. And, of course, none of the other dancers in the club would give you anything but an airdance - that is, if you somehow avoided being ejected. That's confidentiality. There's no explicit agreement, because it's so completely obvious nobody needs to be told. But violate it and you're sure to pay a price.

Sure, boys will be boys, and dancers realize that we will compare notes and exchange referrals on girls who break the rules. Dancers appreciate the advertising - to a point.l I think the expectation is that we limit this to small circles of at least somewhat trusted fellow clubbers, not to proclaim it to total strangers.

So, what does all of this have to do with posting on TUSCL? Let's compare. Here, behind an alias, we're safely removed from being answerable for what we say. If the dancer we post about reads it, she probably cannot tell which customer is spilling the beans. The writer of an explicit review that raises a storm in the club could return the following week without any of the dancers knowing he's the one who blabbed.

The dancer who is named, on the other hand, is just as vulnerable as if you had announced it inside the club. In fact, she's put at greater risk. Instead of having her private activity disclosed to customers and co-workers only, it's broadcast to the world at-large - to anyone who reads about it on the internet. While your alias protects your identity, her club and stage name are enough to pinpoint the dancer. Your intention is only to share info with fellow clubbers, but in disseminating it so publicly, you attract the attention of other parties that can cause great damage to the dancer and the club. She could get fired, catch hell from other dancers or from her husband, or vice could investigate her and the club and arrest her or shut the place down. This isn't paradoia. It's real. These things happen as a result of the kind of internet postings we're discussing.

In some instances, none of it make much difference. With clubs that are commonly known as extras factories, such as Sundowner in Niagara Falls or Mitchell Brothers in San Francisco, the fact that a girl works there is enough to establish what she offers in private dances, so posting about it hardly blows her cover. Or in cities where LE is known to look the other way, the risk is minimal. I don't get the feeling the reviews you're talking about are of this kind.

In most instances, there is a great deal at stake. That's why most of us never connect a stripper's name and club with our accounts of extras, etc., even though we could get away with it. Refraining from doing so keeps from poisoning the well for everyone. If your aim is to spread tips that readers can use, the best solution most of us rely on is to offer more detail only in private email with reasonably trusted parties. Sure, it's not the most convenient method, but it has become necessary in order to play safe. I hope you can appreciate why, Bones, and make the effort to preserve the privacy that makes so much of our illicit fun possible.

I dont drop names and events about what goes on inside or outside the club. If I'm fortunate enough to get any extra attention why in the world would I consider saying anything that could stop it. Many of the ladies are single mothers with 1 or 2 others to raise and they are just doing what they can. Am sure the word is passed among the consenting dancers as to which customers may be able to help them out.

I dont drop names and events about what goes on inside or outside the club. If I'm fortunate enough to get any extra attention why in the world would I consider saying anything that could stop it. Many of the ladies are single mothers with 1 or 2 others to raise and they are just doing what they can. Am sure the word is passed among the consenting dancers as to which customers may be able to help them out.

Guilty as charged. I have no problems giving details of my visits. this is a place to get info. I have visited or avoided clubs because of details I have read here. Lets be honest guys. I hope anyone who reads one of my posts and visits the same club has the same or better experience than I had.

Have I received extras at clubs? Yes.

Have I played OTC? Yes.

Do I detail any of that in my reviews? Absolutely not.

The primary reasons that I do not mention these goings-on, are as follows;
I am a jealous person. If I've got something going on with a particular dancer, I'd rather not help other guys find out that the potential is there. Sure, I tell myself she only does that with me - heck the girls usually tell me that, too, but I can't always believe that, as much as I'd like to. Thus, typically, I will not even mention her name in my posts.

I also do not want to bring on problems for any girl, such as possibly getting fired, etc.

Additionally, I do not want the clubs that I frequent to incur any problems with the local legal entities. Once that happens, we all know that the focus on that club will have a severe impact on the mileage - maybe even resulting in shutting down the place. Look what's happened in South Bend (IN)... there's NOTHING left of what used to be very good... now it's all air-dancing by some very unfavorable talent. Also look at The Hip Hugger in Kokomo (IN) - thanks to actions at a fellow club in the city, a big crack-down took place, resulting in the girls now having to wear tape in the nips.

(In my previous post, it was not Yoda I was agreeing with, but actually Mickkeyc. Yoda may agree, too, but his point was different.)

Bones: I hesitate to criticize what details any other poster decides to include, because only he knows the situation at the club and what kind of understanding he has with the girl. Some of the reasons you give, however, strike me as a bit shakey.

Are you saying you take the absence of a request not to post a dancer's name as permission to to so along with intimate details? Or am I missing something (e.g., you tell her what you plan to post, and she doesn't ask you not to)? Because I don't see how it can be claimed that the opposite shouldn't be our presumed understanding.

And I really don't see how the price of the dance includes the right to identify the girl along with our boast. Nor how it makes any difference that you're using only her stage name and only when it's a club you visit on the road. Would any of us, after getting an ultra-high mileage dance, announce to everybody in the club, "Listen up! Amber here just took my dick out and jerked me off, and let me finger her pussy. Just wanted you all to know."? Because the only difference is that here we're talking behind her back, safe from being identified (short of our ISP receiving a court order), and there's no way of knowing who's reading it.

Look, I know we can't get approval for every name we mention. We shouldn't have to, for example, when we're describing stage dances, since that's a public performance. I like to include names I get dances from sometimes, because it makes the review read better. But when I do, I keep the description fairly general. Even that may be taking liberties with confidentiality when I hint a little too suggestively. I appreciate that we want to share this kind of info, but really, is "boys will be boys" any excuse for spilling the beans?

It's not so much the dancers that I worry about, it's the club. If you say that extras are available in a certain club, you are increasing the chances that the club will attract LE attention and possibly be raided and shut down. You also risk getting directly involve in the ensuing legal action.

Happylap, ITC means inside the club, OTC means outside the club.

I agree with Yoda. Unless a stripper has told me it's fine and dandy for me to go and reveal the details of what happened between us to the whole world, I would consider it a betrayal.

Stage names don't always mean too much either. I've seen dancers change clubs and a new dancer comes in and takes over one of the old stage names. I may think a dancer I've seen before is about to go on stage and then I see a new dancer has taken that name now. Stage names are subject to change. Some dancers change clubs at the drop of a hat as well.

Though I discuss some of the things that have happened to me over the years in clubs I never mention any names. It kills me that guys actually ask questions about who does what on the internet and expect to get straight answers. My experience has been that a lot of what gets posted negatively about an dancer on club sites is generally posted by other jealous dancers. It's very difficult to say antyhing good-even if it's clean-about a dancer without a bunch of bitchy hate posts appearing after the fact. Too bad, in the early days of TUSCL you could actually follow the recomendations of some of the posters.

I do more or less the same, re: sizing up the situation in the club. I find that the excitement of doing something you might get caught at, makes it all the more fun. But the downsides are great.

Maybe that is why I never blow a nut, come to think of it.

The way I work it, I guess, has developed over the years. I have a sense for when the situation is OK, when the crowd is too thick or not thick enough, when privacy is an issue, when she is too forward or not forward enough. And I just try to use this sense as best I can. I have patronized ladies in the "service profession" and I haven't been busted, yet. Though, of course, the more often I do it, the more likely I will get caught. Also, new cities and locations are always more risky. If you know the "lay of the land" you're more likely to read things correctly.

I know one guy who is, unfortunate for him, a "registered sex offender" and had a ridiculous settlement in a recent divorce because of it. He basically doesn't EVER get to see his children except in public places, he is not allowed to drive them to or from school, cannot be anywhere near their childhood athletic events, or any other location where crowds of kids gather.

The reason for his conviction? He peed on a dumpster in a parking lot after he'd drunk a lot of beer at an NFL game. This supposed "indecent exposure" (and a virago wife) has cost him a large amount of grief.

But that doesn't mean he should have stopped urinating. Give me a damn break.

I'm not familiar with "OTC" and "ITC". What does that mean? Maybe tuscl could add it to the glossary.

I know for a fact that some LE agencies monitor this board because I was once contacted after mentioning in a review that extras were available in a certain club. Never again.

As well it ought to. Some misguided people think that the consequences of such an encounter would be, at most, comparable to a traffic ticket, or being cited because your lawn had grown too tall. In fact, a conviction could make you a "sex offender", which could have implications as to where you could live, be employed, and even visit (try explaining to your children/grandchildren why you can't go to their school play). People in state-regulated professions could face employment consequences. Our local newspapers publich the names and addresses of all registered sex offenders (available over the Internet in our state, probably in all) annually. However, the countervailing factor is that the dancers who are the second needed to "tango" are also aware of the situation, and don't want to be arrested any more than you do. That is why I am OK with following a dancer's lead (to a point), but I would be very circumspect about "taking the lead" as to extras, even in terms of suggesting them.

I think it is a bad idea to publish names of providers of extras for a very pragmatic reason--to do so might excite the interest of LE (who I am sure monitor this board, and can track any one of us down through our respective ISPs), leading to the possible services being curtailed.

Anyway, as it says at the bottom of this page, these are all "works of fiction"...right?

Anyone else with any experience with LE?

The truth is it scares me to think of getting busted in the private room!

I remember posting some general comment from a dancer I thought was a joke. That club was raided by LE within 2 or 3 weeks I believe. I thought it was a joke I heard and didn't believe it. LE doesn't joke around and is more likely to take things seriously. If someone posts something on here, remember who might be more inclined to believe you.

In the earlier days of the net, I remember going to a site where you could flirt with others for free while using a microphone. One local girl who was flirting with me a bit was a deputy. I got her to moan over the microphone. I could just imagine the local office secretly listening in and getting a big chuckle out of the whole thing. I also got to talk for free to girls in Canada, the UK, and Australia all at the same time. I loved their accents. People started talking and saying things like "with this, why do we need long distance?" It got cut off and the service was gone. The best way to kill something fun seems to be to tell everyone else about it.

Shadowcat, I couldn't agree more with your statement:

"Especially if we want to get more or continue the relationship. "

I am sure that these relationships all get derailed eventually (LOL) but I think common sense will keep it on track for longer?