The Myth of the Separation of Church and State

23 comments

• MisterGuy

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  15 years ago

  Dude, try sticking to strip club-related topics, because you SUCK at these feeble, Right-wing, drive-by, political hit jobs! "The words separation of church and state don't appear in any official government documents authored by the founding fathers" ...and neither do the words God or Creator or any other of that religious nonsense. BTW, Thomas Jefferson's influential VA Statute for Religious Freedom that was enacted in 1786 (5 years before the Bill of Rights) separated the church and the state. "It is also used by evolutionists to try to keep a theistic explanation of origins out of the public schools." LOL...creationism is pure religious bunk, and evolution is pure scientific theory, period. "In other words, there is virtually no constitutional support whatsoever for it." Well, as 19th century Union Theological Seminary historian Philip Schaff observed: "The American separation of church and state rests upon respect for the church; the [European anticlerical] separation, on indifference and hatred of the church, and of religion itself…. The constitution did not create a nation, nor its religion and institutions. It found them already existing, and was framed for the purpose of protecting them under a republican form of government, in a rule of the people, by the people, and for the people." [view link] In 1797, the U.S. Senate ratified a treaty with Tripoli that stated in Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." James Madison wrote of "total separation of the church from the state."...AND..."Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States,"...as well as..."practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."...and finally..."We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt." [view link] [view link] The Constitutional Convention believed a govt. sanctioned (established) religion would disrupt rather than bind the newly formed union together. George Washington wrote in 1790, to the country's first Jewish congregation - the Touro Synagogue in Newport, RI, to state: "All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it were by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support." [view link] "Myth #1: Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is the basis for separation of church and state" You mean where Jefferson *clearly spoke* of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause AND the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment as being the basis for the restriction on the legislative branch of the federal government when it came to religion?? BTW, the *full quote* is: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their 'legislature' should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." "The first problem with that assertion is that this quote is not from an official government document" ...which means *absolutely nothing*. "The second is that it was Jefferson's original intent that this meant that the church was to be protected from the government, not the reverse (which is the case today)." Wrong again wing-nut. The well-established separation of church & state in the USA is the *real reason* why we don't have the kind of theological govt. that many of our opponents in the Middle East aspire to have...wake up! "Myth #2: The founding fathers were 'deists'" The FACT is that evangelicals such as Isaac Bachus & John Leland joined forces with Deists & skeptics such as James Madison & Thomas Jefferson to fight for a complete separation of church and state. [view link] "In fact, 27 of our nation's 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees! That would hardly qualify them as deists" ...unless they rejected the teachings of those institutions later in life, moron. "How does the ACLU explain away the October 11, 1782 congressional proclamation that declared Thanksgiving Day a day the nation was to give thanks to God for a variety of blessings?" Well, Jefferson steadfastly refused to issue Proclamations of Thanksgiving sent to him by Congress during his presidency in part because he thought they violated the Religion Clauses. Your *secular* holiday of Thanksgiving weak *distraction* is merely considered an example of our govt. deciding simple, practical & beneficial arrangements for our society, period.
• mitciv

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  15 years ago

  To understand Jefferson's "wall of separation," we should return to the original context in which it was written. Jefferson himself once wrote: "On every question of construction, [we must] carry ourselves back to the time when the constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the test, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was a part." There is much much more: [view link] The arrogant close-minded author of the last comment would benefit from a broad education.
• how

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  15 years ago

  While this topic is a big surprise for this board, I will simply note that MG's conclusions are unsupported by the facts he presents.
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  mitciv, You know you are right on when the board moron "corrects" you!
• SuperDude

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  15 years ago

  So, if an elected public official holds a religious belief, Christian or otherwise, that teaches her that SCs are immoral and an offense to God, she has a duty to use her civil authority to ban them? Should an atheist, a decorated Army combat veteran, be required to recite "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Should Jews be required to recite the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of the school day? I worry when people believe that their faith is being punished just because we want to keep religion from dictating public policy.
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  Freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Ever hear of The Church Of England?
• SuperDude

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  15 years ago

  Freedom from religion dictating public policy. Freedom of religion allows the individual to practice what he believes.
• samsung1

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  15 years ago

  as a great man once said: YAWN!
• SuperDude

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  15 years ago

  I agree that this topic, while important, is not for this board.
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  SD, Simple, like religion, do not participate if you wish!
• gk

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  15 years ago

  I'm well read on history and can debate this with some assertiveness and comfort in knowing what the facts are and what the founders were and did--they were far more religious that we are today, for instance. So mitciv, you are way out in left field on this one, pun intended. BUT, I am a member here to find escape from such things--the same reason I go to strip clubs. I got caught up in this once, but not again. There are more appropriate forums where we can hash these things out. Not here. Leave us with our fun. BTW, I've read that Benjamin Frranklin was a nudist (at times) and quite the flirter with women. I think he would have loved strip clubs.
• MisterGuy

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  15 years ago

  "The arrogant close-minded author of the last comment would benefit from a broad education" in your wildest dreams that is...lol... "Strict constructionism" is a nonsensical farce. Even your hero Antonin Scalia, the justice most identified with the term, has said that he is "not a strict constructionist and no-one ought to be," and he has called the philosophy "a degraded form of textualism that brings the whole philosophy into disrepute." "I will simply note that MG's conclusions are unsupported by the facts he presents." LOL...really?? I cite actual historical quotes & data, and the idiot that started the OP quotes some far Right-wing Falwell "ministry" that provides free legal assistance in defense of "Christian religious liberty, the sanctity of human life, and the traditional family." Sure, sure...sounds real objective...not! They are against the Harry Potter books because they claim that they support "witchcraft" for heaven's sake! What a joke... "Ever hear of The Church Of England?" We have moron, and that's the EXACT kind of thing that the Founders were running away from, moron! "they were far more religious that we are today, for instance." And that proves what exactly?? Whether they were "religious" or not means *nothing* when it comes to whether or not they felt that govt. should be involved in religion is any way, shape, or form.
• mitciv

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  15 years ago

  MG, do you have any friends?
• Slothrop

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  15 years ago

  The lunatic ravings of right wing nut jobs is quite fascinating, but this is a strip club site. Save your madness for some Yahoo message board where others of your strange ilk congregate.
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  Some moron calls me a moron and is agreeing with what I had just typed. What is dumber than a moron? A mg?
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  Slothrop, And just who is holding a gun to your head making you read this? Typical liberal. Can't even figure out how to use the "off" switch!
• SuperDude

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  15 years ago

  Do you guys think that this discussion, if shared with a dancer, would get you a hotter LD?
• samsung1

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  15 years ago

  well with so many strippers claiming they are trying to pay their way through college..they might enjoy this type of conversation. Those types tend to be ROBs though so still no touching would be allowed!
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  samsung1, There are dancers with whom I've held a reasonably intelligent conversation, unlike a number of idiots on here. Those, well... YAWN!
• MisterGuy

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  15 years ago

  "do you have any friends?" Sure, do you have any brains mitciv?? "Some moron calls me a moron and is agreeing with what I had just typed." No, some moron (that would be YOU clubber) simply doesn't understand how ironic his posts are over & over & over again...lol...run away now clubber... "Do you guys think that this discussion, if shared with a dancer, would get you a hotter LD?" LOL...nope...
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  YAWN!!
• MisterGuy

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  15 years ago

  You're such a good boy clubber...you always do what you are told...run away...lol...
• Clubber

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  15 years ago

  YAWN!!!