Lap Dance Prices, Alfred North Whitehead, and Market Irrationality

avatar for Book Guy
Book Guy
I write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
Lap Dance Prices, Alfred North Whitehead, and Market Irrationality
---or---
Lapper prices. Are they going up? AGAIN? Fucking what the fucking FUCK?

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So, are lap-dance prices rising? It looks like $40 for one song is becoming appropriate in some settings for some contexts. An interim measure of $35 is not unreasonable, so the market seems to suggest. The $20 lapper's days may be numer.

But. Do you remember every single goddamned time that lap-dance prices started going up, every single occasion that it happened, and JUST HOW GODDAMNED PISSED OFF you were about it?

I remember mainly the one big tectonic plate-shift of lapper pricing some time in around 1997 or so ... some cities earlier, some cities later; some clubs were exploitative or at least opportunistic early adopters of the new regime, and other clubs responded by being recalcitrant opportunistic exploiters of their competition's price hikes! Eventually, though, everybody made the change, and they've made it more or less permanent. Upwards.

By 1997 or so, I think, things had finally changed to the more expensive.

Up to the late 80s and early 90s, a lap-dance was an oddity and not the norm, to be had at a smaller number of certain "special" clubs which made up 50% or less of the total "burlesque" market out there, which consisted of variously named joints buildings centers clubs establishments venues etc. all of which provided women in stages of undress. Hence, up the the late 80s or early 90s, a lap-dance would cost about $10, though it might come in a pricing-packet bundle or it might require other outlay of funds for other amenities.

But then, by the late 90s, things had changed. Burlesque as a performance was long since dead, while sexual services and most "adult" establishments were growing more and more mainstream. Jazz bands and feather boas were no longer necessary. It started to look like every strip-club would soon offer SOME form of dancer-to-customer contact: a lap-dance or bed-dance or sweetheart-dance or just plain old "back room". Small city council jurisdictions across the country began ongoing battles with First Amendment Rights activists over how to curtail this lewd anti-social menace. By the end of the change-over, an official lap-dance would come to be established as lasting the length of ONE rock-song, at roughly 3.5 to 4.5 minutes; and it would cost $20, though it still might be assorted into pricing-packet bundles of one sort or another as of yore. And there really hadn't been much middle ground. Rather, BOOM! suddenly prices DOUBLED and they did so everywhere for everything lapper.

I think my recollection is roughly accurate at least for the cities which I frequented at that time -- mostly, Tampa and Toronto, and a little bit of Memphis and New Orleans and Detroit or points nearby. In 1988, it would have been $10 for maybe a five-minute "cuddle dance" on a couch at the side of a club. By 2000, it was pretty much guaranteed to be $20 for a one-rock-song lap-dance at the patron's chosen location, higher entry price for more privacy.

To me, the change from $10 to $20 was a radical game-changer. Before the change, I would just head on out to sample the party, like grabbing a few chicken wings at the buffet. It was easy to take what I wanted and to experience up to satiety. I got ENOUGH. Nobody could possibly have danced me into the ground, neither wallet-wise nor duration-wise, because the experience was generic and simple. Then after the change, I had to plan, to think, to goddamned care about what I did with my time, and therefore I had to choose how much. How much of EVERYTHING. I had to choose how much to drink of alcohol, or whether to drink at all; I had to pick which club to visit; I had to decide what to wear; I had to remember when I had last shaved my face (and my balls); I had to consider whether or not I lived in the same city as people who might recognize me at an "illicit adult establishment" and whether that would be bad for my workplace image. Worse, I had to select among the dancers. I had to "examine" each one for lap-dance viability, run them through an audition in the expensive "trial" pricing structures before heading to any potential longer session of bundled dances in a more private room, and so forth. It went from off-the-cuff to make-an-appointment-in-the-datebook, from whatever-floats-your-boat to there's-a-right-way-to-get-this-thing-organized-properly.

Yet I personally hadn't really gotten any poorer or richer during the change. The new price totally changed my ATTITUDE. By the way, it's no surprise to me to note, that the change happened just as the internet started to become mainstream. Girls and managers started to find out what other clubs and other cities were like and they started to be able to compare experiences, the pricing climbed to what the market would probably have tolerated for quite a long preceding time, and they could have raised the prices earlier except they just didn't have information, didn't know how to exploit the demand.

The change changed my MIND. My disposable income would easily keep up with the change, and the overall impact on my personal bottom line was perhaps still negligible. I invested the same amount of my total income, I spent the same amount of time on going out to strip clubs as compared to working out or seeing movies or attending church, I drank the same amount of alcohol (or non-alcohol). The cost of lappers didn't really impact those balances. Well, of course, I'm sure I would like to have all that spent money BACK, wouldn't we all? I would want it sitting in some Mutual Fund growing interest ever since that day that I had instead spent it, naturally. But I'd say exactly the same thing about any money I spent on vacations or expensive dinners at nice restaurants -- gee, if I could have it back, if I could go back in time. But we can't. Duh. So the expenses, for me, from before or after, at $10 or $20, neither made nor broke me, neither represented "good" or "bad" pricing in true neo-Liberal Free Market terms. I had little intrinsic sense of the value of a lapper, other than that price-point at which the market had evaluated it and therefore charged me for it. True Economics 101. But somehow, despite my agnosticism regarding any intrinsic worth that a lapper might have to me, I just could not mentally "justify" spending the larger amount of money. At $20, I suddenly felt like a lapper "had to be worth it" to be bought; I felt like I would keep in mind my expenditures; I felt like girls had really better KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

And yet, damnit, they DON'T. Lappers haven't gotten any better. Dancers haven't gotten any more skilled at them. The likelihood that, in my first lap-dance with a dancer who is otherwise a new acquaintance to me, her dancing will turn out to give me an excellent experience, or a miserable one, is still about the same likelihood. If I had to put numbers on it, I'd say it's roughly 60% likely, that I'll enjoy the lapper enough to say I don't regret it; another 15% or 20% likely that it will be so extremely wonderful that I'll want more more more from the same girl (i.e., that's a chance of about 1 in 4, ranging to 1 in 3, per individual dancer); and the remaining 20% to 25% likely (1 in 4 overall) that this will be the one only and last dance I ever have from her because she's lame. Before, at $10, those were the likelihoods; and now, after, at $20, those are still the likelihoods. This fact bothers me. More money for no more service. Drat. Fuckin' free market sux man.

Income has not necessarily increased for mongers appreciably over that time-period; I suppose for DANCERS it has, at least in terms of potential income per hour or per song? An average working dude has an income which reflects his status, education, skill, duration of tenure, value, negotiation, ethics, whatever, just the same. Salaries for PLs haven't gone up disproportionately, have they? The cost of doing lap-dance business has not significantly increased. In fact, I think it has partly decreased, given that the legality of the situation is more clear-cut and the mainstream social pressure to avoid it has been reduced. It costs the same, or less, to give lap dances. And the clients are not any richer than we were. But the prices have gone up.

So why is our higher expense not yielding higher levels of service? The pervasive nature of lappers, I suppose, is the explanation among the neo-Liberals. The damn spin-on-my-crotch things are taking place all over the map, every club, every county, all the patrons have heard about them and want them, it's become almost impossible to legislate against them and everyone knows it; therefore, it's become clear that there's a higher demand than was understood in the $10 era, right? That's what they'd say. And with more demand can be higher prices right? Demand up, all other things equal, prices up.

Well, but there's also more supply, in my opinion. More girls are willing to do lapper dances, partly because it's more self-evident that the action isn't an illegal activity; partly because, hey, everyone's doing it, there's less social censure against it. Many many more clubs offer the lap-dance experience. In fact, I think more clubs EXIST, are IN BUSINESS at all, than before. And by the way, it's an unlimited resource, this thing called pussy; they keep making more 18 year old girls, and last time I looked, every single one of them had an 18-year-old body, not a year older! How on earth can a perpetual, unlimited resource be in SHORT supply? Young girls are reckless, and are busy one-upping one another in the looks department, and they always will be. There's never going to be a dearth of dancers, only a dearth of clubs or a dearth of jurisdictions that allow clubs with lap-dances. So far, the First Amendment Activists have driven the market's supply side well toward favoring the mongers by eliminating that threat. Infinitely more dancers, more clubs, more opportunity, less restriction, this all means much more supply. Prices should go down, right?

So, we must engender competition to lower prices. We can cause them to drop, I suppose, would be our natural and necessary reply. I guess. TUSCL would be a good place to start. Rise up, brothers in chairs! Brothers on sofas, in back rooms, behind thinly-veiled curtains of VIP! Join in solidarity, to demand what is our God-given right, to a full-service fair accord in which lap-dances are not exorbitantly priced! I don't exactly see that this will ever come to fruition. In fact, if anything, prices seem to be on the verge of going UPWARDS again. What the fuck? Now $35 at some of the higher-end clubs, and $40 is pretty much the norm on weekends in the big cities.

Too much, I sometimes think. They haven't priced me out of the market due to my lack of funds. They're priced me out of the market due to their lack of respect. It's not that I can't afford it, or that I make different choices with my money. Often I withdraw the same old amount, absent-mindedly, and then just don't happen to go to a club to spend it. I'm not "thinking with my feet." I'm just wondering why anyone would WANT that. I really don't feel it's sensible (I suppose this means, I AM thinking with my feet, I admit it) to spend more on a single rock-song's worth of lap dancing than I would on an ENTIRE DAY of out-of-the-house dining. I think of three to four minutes of a girl gyrating on my willy with her butt and coochie as ... well, as not a big deal; it's an untrained, non-trade, non-unionized, off-the-cuff, can-do-it-at-any-time-of-day-or-night, requires no infrastructure, is not a liability concern, has no HIPPAA compliance mandate, toss-off purchase. Like getting that Snickers bar at the gas station while paying for my gasoline: nothing I need, something I probably cannot be said even to WANT, merely something I happened to open my wallet for, something I would just as well do without as do with. An impulse purchase, no value added to my life, neither necessary nor durable nor staple nor idiosyncratically exotic.

Exotic? Is a lap-dance actually a LUXURY service? I don't think so. It fits that sector, according to the classical economist, I suppose. But then he quotes Maslow on the hierarchy of needs and puts the drive for reproduction at the top of the list, which of course is inherently one major cause of any hetero male's interest in a lapper, right? He's contradicting himself, this economist.

No, lappers are "fun money" income. My impression is, that just as McDonald's jobs were never DESIGNED to be longer-term income for longer-term employees, for the permanent American under-class of dope-stupid brain-deads who won't finish High School, similarly, lapper services are not DESIGNED to be the full means of support for single mothers. McDonald's employees are SUPPOSED to be high-school kids who stil live at home, use mom and dad's car on the weekends, and are learning the meaning of an honest day's work for an honest dollar, right? The market for pricing, of the burger or of their wages, is not entirely a free market neo-liberal phenomenon. We giving them money because it incentivizes their education, see what I mean? As the economist would whine, there should be no minimum wage for a bunch of high school kids who don't need or want the job. To the contrary, if we let Democrats and other Socialists unionize them and drive up the minimum wage for burger-flippers, what we're doing is crediting the entire fast-food industry with the capacity to operate as though it were the same as the Life Insurance sector, replete with product managers and investment oversight boards and a right to tax-break consideration when they provide meaningful infrastructure investment, right?

Similarly, we should not give the lap-dance industry that type of credit. A hot chick is hot because of no thing she ever did. Her ability at a lapper could motivate me to pay her more, because of value added, but the industry doesn't guarantee me that she will have the requisite level of skill (see above, dance quality is not improving, in the aggregate, despite increased prices and even in the face of grossly inflated supply). Her level of education, like the McDonald's burger flipper, is really the central question here. To me, as a patron, if she wants $35 a dance, I'm going to have to decide whether her Big Mac is worth it or not. In a truly free market, in which the consumer (demand) works as hard as the producer (supply), there would be give-and-take. Groups of mongers would refuse to pay; enclaves of low pricing would pop up, with opportunistic dancers and club managers taking advantage of their competition's hiked prices by lowering their own. The market would fluctuate, and reach fair equilibrium. But we don't have that situation, mongers are unlikely to balk at higher prices (see above, I don't exactly see that this will ever come to fruition), consequently we're supporting an inflated price structure. To put it in neo-Liberal terms, we're paying the price of our own stupidity. So, the purchase just looks stupider and stupider, and the consumer grows more and more alienated from the interaction.

It can't really be said that the dancers are an intelligent market participant, in the aggregate. They go out, they take what they can get, they dance the night away, grinding on crotches if they get $100 profit at the end of the night or $500. In fact, the indeterminacy of their night's worth of income is one factor that argues strongly in favor of their failure to be a truly "rational" economic actor. They don't make a decision on the basis of the cost (in their case, the negative cost; the income). They can't, because they can't KNOW it. Rather, they are ADDICTED to it. They're hooked on the adrenalin and the ease of having money for "nothing but partying" and the sales-pitch nature of the situation. Every dancer who needs more money, promptly reads off of single girl who made more money than her, the clear message of, "You must just not be hot enough." The absence of rational economic decision-making on their part, and perhaps on our part too, makes this a woffly weeply market that makes little sense. Drama, prices, coolness, adolescent kissing games on the basement sofa, can we really say that the "market will bear" a price increase? I don't think so. Because I don't think there IS a market for lap-dances.

I mean, sure, viewed from a long distance away, of course there is. Neo-Liberal and classical economists will show you that the mere fact of it taking place is enough to say that something is working like a market, and I do agree. But I think the thing that is being bought and sold is absolutely not lap-dances. It makes much more sense to consider it as a market of self-esteem, or of cojones, mojo, some sort of "intrinsic" value that we humans place upon ourselves and place upon other humans. If you flip-flip all the above analysis, and stop thinking about price-per-service, dollar outlay for a lap-dance, maybe it makes a little bit more sense.

At least, it does to me. When I think, "Hey, why is it exactly that I don't want to pay $35, I probably don't want to pay $20, but I'm OK with paying $10," and the thing I'm buying is something that is essentially useless to me, I wonder what kind of brain I have. A luxury or unnecessary good, yet I have an emotional need to evaluate it at a certain "reasonable" level? You can't buy a luxury goods or services with "reason." The market for luxury has no reason. Nobody ever owned a Lamborghini "reasonably." It doesn't admit of rational economic actors. A Lamborghini doesn't travel any faster than the latest BMW or look any better than a classic Cadillac or, if you get drunk and puke in the Lamborghini, it doesn't smell any better than a mini-van after your kid has puked in it. (Worse, in fact, probably.) Lap-dances the same -- there is very little "rational" economic activity going on there. That's because we aren't buying lap-dances.

So, when I look at my emotional investment, what I see is, a need to evaluate myself highly. At $35 a song, a dancer is saying to me, "You're a PL and all I see is a dollar sign. I'm a Hoover, I will vacuum your wallet, have a nice day, this is an impersonal interaction. Pay. Oh wait, forgot, have to dance. Here (gyrate gyrate) tah dah, ten-second dance, now pay." Insulting. At $20 a song, I'm feeling like, "Well, take it or leave it mister, I'm sure someone else here will pay that much." And I like to be able to prove I'm not a PL, just for the novelty of it, you know. Once in a while, take my own life by the balls, be in charge, decide what I want and reject some things that I don't want. At $10, a dancer is saying to me, "I hope you like me. Please approve of me?" I like this, but it does smack of a little bit of desperation. She needs to make the sale, and therefore she engages in actions which will bring it about. Improving her skills; becoming personable; losing weight; appearing properly attractive. At $35 a song, she is no longer motivated to do so, because she knows that the likelihood of income is not seriously improved by her instigation of any improvement regiment. At $35, her being a bitchy cunt to ten men will still run nine of them off, but it will also net enough money from the tenth to make up for the lost nine. Whereas, at $10, she has her destiny in her own hands. Well, most of it; her tits are in my hands; and I suppose her tits are part of her destiny, aren't they? She needs OUR approval as much as we need hers. At $10, it feels to me like she asks us to approve of the transaction.

Problem is, of course, we go to strip clubs because we don't otherwise get females to do that. The reason this market is skewed, and the commodity waffles among self-esteem, lap services, the sex industry, and just plain old sales, is that one of the items that's being bought and sold is, in fact, the CAPACITY for market participation. It's like sales forces buying and selling salespeople from one another. Because the average PL lacks the capacity to woo (in other words, to NEGOTIATE) for himself the fact that (adequately hot, adequately apealing, adequately young) woman into lying in his bed and approving of him, he goes about finding other ways to get his hands on her tits. I do this, you do this, we all do this, PL or not. That much is free market. But then, the FACT of being good or bad at negotiation is, in itself, an indicator of market status. So, there's a self-referential circle going on. The PL lacks what he seeks; sure, we know that. But also, the lack of it causes him to be poor at seeking at. A double-whammy. Thus, the dancer is free to double-exploit.

If you know your Whitehead, here's a theory, a propounded but perhaps profound metaphor: we are the set of all sets. The sex industry, and in particular the mainstream-most part of it, that is, the pictures of semi-naked girls who advertise underwear in the newspapers and magazines, and who grind on our laps at strip clubs, is self-referential. When you buy a car, you need some degree of negotiation skills, but you are not BUYING the very act of negotiating between yourself and a salesperson. When you buy even the nicest Lamborghini, you may get a high price or a low price depending to some extent on your own negotiation skills, but you will absolutely not be able to say, after the interaction, that you have become a better negotiator by merit of owning a Lamborghini. Aside from the small lesson of experience that you get from that one interaction, you gain no salesman points. Study enough of them, sure, you can learn. But mostly, it's an engine, tires, and an expensive chassis which you have bought.

To the contrary, when you buy a lapper, you buy negotiation. You not only get the service that you have purchased. You also get the sense that you are now better at buying that service. Why is this? Well, because otherwise there would be a much more rational market for lap-dance services. Unlimited supply would dictate a rather low price; flagging demand would lower that price; any sensible competition among dancers would further lower it. The market doesn't seem to act that way. Therefore, I conclude, the thing which we are selling is not lap-dance services, but rather, self-esteem, of the subtle form that I would call self-reference. Getting a lap-dance causes the provider (the dancer) or manufacturer (her mother?) to think that a negative has taken place -- she has gyrated, offered a service, reduced her value by performing actions which otherwise she would not do. She brings almost no expertise, but she raises demand by being remarkably visually appealing. The desire for her is there, so the demand for her is there. But it is evanescent. Hotter girl walks by, and monger watches her instead. Super-hottie walks by, and I've been known to break off halfway through a song with a half-hearted ugg and chase down her much more desirable competition! And guess what? The ugg seldom complains. She knows she should not get the money. Intrinsically, inherently, sub-consciously, she is already aware that it would HURT her more to chase after her former customer to demand that he pay for what he partially received, in the face of her knowledge that he desires someone else more than he desires her.

Hence, she is not selling the service. Else she would naturally demand money for it. (Some still do, of course. Maybe most. The market is still fairly powerful in her mind. But my example of how it HURTS her, merely makes the point that there's a sub-conscious twinge of regret, a tie to something other than price of service paid for that service.) Instead, to her, she is BUYING OUR APPROVAL, and we, too, are buying her ability to give us her approval.

That's why the prices need to be within a reasonable range, and that's why most of us can probably invest "emotional" value in lap-dance pricing. Some high prices are "too" high, even though the service is supposedly just a luxury. Some low prices may be "too" low as well, demeaning to seller and to buyer, reducing the transaction to something unpleasant. I don't want just any old ass to grind on my crotch. I want That One Special Girl to do so, and I want to make sure I know she's special, and I want her to know that I know, and she wants me to know that I know that she knows, and so on and on and so forth, self-referentially impossible to escape the cycle.

Whitehead explained all of this in his Principia Mathematica. In this book, his grand scheme was to come up with a mathematics of everything. He (and his student Bertrand Russel) did come up with a mathematics of a lot of things. But of everything? No, they ultimately decided that would be impossible. Why? Because there could never be a complete mathematics OF mathematics. Any system which has to reference itself, also has to contradict itself. They proved this assertion through the now-famous example of the "set of all sets." (I won't go into the reasoning. This paragraph has enough proper nouns related to it, for you to easily find the reasoning by means of Google and Wikipedia.) Strip-clubbing, like much of pornography and the adult-services industry, is inextricably self-referential. We don't buy in order to have the product. We buy, or sell, in order to approve of ourselves, and in turn to gain the knowledge of another person offering us their approval, and in turn to know that she knows that we know, and so on. Thus, it CANNOT act like a rational market commodity. It MUST have some degree of extremely irrational behavior.

Such as, at present, the fact that prices go up even though demand is rather small, costs are already prohibitively high, and world-wide supply is demonstrably unlimited.

Next question, then, how do we stop this nefarious cycle? Just some thoughts. Yours also welcome.

18 comments

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avatar for Roadworrier
Roadworrier
8 years ago
Lap dances are not the only transactions at many if not most clubs. Except for Mons Venus, which has effectively commoditized the $20 LD (and arguably many of the Deja Vu clubs in CA), most other clubs offer other means of separating you from your money. Cover charges, mandatory $20 dancer drinks, the typical $10/min VIP room (15 min, 30 min or 60 min), and even food and alcohol are other opportunities, although I have encountered a number of places which make the drinks a good value (especially places like Columbus) and others which do pretty well with the food. Keep in mind that some clubs take more from the gals proceeds than others, especially with rooms. Anyplace where the club takes over 50% from the revenue of the VIP room, and the gal may not see its value compared to just giving 30 min of lap dances where she can keep more of the money. I've also gone to plenty of clubs where there are attractive gals but they make no effort to sell a lap or private room because they wind up giving almost all of it back to the club, and they get more money from guys making it rain on stage.
avatar for chessmaster
chessmaster
8 years ago
Long but good write up.

With so many strip clubs all over america, provided you live within reasonable distance of any major city, there are plenty choices for where to go for your lapdances. Some clubs laps cost more, Some less. Also geographically there can be huge discrepancies in lap dance prices as well as mileage. If clubs are charging $40 for lapdances it's only because someone is paying it. I myself have paid $40 occasionally for lapdances although not anymore. I've seen what I can get for $10 at follies so why would I pay $40 for less. For that matter I have had better mileage for some $20 laps than I have had for some $40 lapdances.

The dancers on sw seem to think the price of lapdances has been stagnant for too long. I somewhat agree. $10 for an airdance in the 80s or 90s was one thing. I think full contact lapdances in fairness should be $20-$30 nowadays. It has to be hard for dancers to ask for more than that on a regular basis for just a lapdance with the internet providing escorts, free porn and cam shows(i think this can evetually put air dances clubs out of business), and sugar baby and online dating sites. The average pl has more sexual outlets now than 20 or 30 years ago. Not to mention extras clubs.

The sex industry is no different from anything else. Supply and demand is still at work. The supply is worth whatever the demanders are willing to pay.
avatar for san_jose_guy
san_jose_guy
8 years ago
For the girls these kinds of prices are a self-esteem thing. But in the wilder clubs, the girls just do, they don't offer dances. It happens in the front room, right where you are sitting, so the money flows in smaller increments. But the girls usually get more, and the house cut is just a flat rate.

Buying dances is for chumps. Engage with your girl in the front room, feeding her friend money, and get a makeout session going. Save booths and back rooms until it is time for your own pants to come down. And then take her home with you too, and continue to see her regularly.

Seeing a girl only in the strip club is what makes one a PL.

SJG
avatar for Book Guy
Book Guy
8 years ago
Good comments, Roadworrier, Chessmaster, San Jose Guy. I didn't mean to ramble on and on in such a poetic manner, it kind of got loose from me, but you're all probably more right about at least one idea than my article makes it seem I would be -- supply-and-demand is still at work. I just felt, at the time of writing, that another rather ineffable element (the element of self-esteem or sense-of-worth or something like that) has been poorly introduced into the standing supply-and-demand analysis. Didn't get to the bottom of it, but, glad I brought it up, thanks for reading and bearing with my long-winded-ness.

BG :)
avatar for rogertex
rogertex
7 years ago
Here's a recipe for a successful strip club franchise:

1. Location: Middle-Town, America (Working class - blue collar, professionals, no thugs)
2. Parking: Free
3. Entry: $3
4. Drink Prices: Soda $3; Beer $4; Mixed $5
5. Lap dances top-less: $10 / song; $100 13-pack; $250 unlimited
6. Cigars/Food: Reasonably priced

Why a club will make lotsa money

1. Parking/Entry: Being in Middle-Town America (& not Vegas, NYC or Canada, Canadian border ares) - building costs are low with plenty of parking.

2. Drinks/Food: Regular bars make good money at those prices - so can a strip club.

3. Dancers: Have core set of dancers on payroll. About 6-12 a shift. No one over 24 years. Pay them $300 for the shift. For partying, stage dancing, lap dancing, schmoozing with customers, firting, making customers feel welcome, cuddling, hugging.
Dancing income from payroll dancers obviously goes to the club.
Pure warmth and affection from a 22 year old hottie with maturity of a 30 year old MILF. No sucking or fucking. This is $6K/month steady income plus free gym membership for a young woman who is also free to pursue millions of other career options long term.

4. Remaining dancers should be on a contract basis. Each pays a nominal house fee - say $20 for a shift and keeps all the stage tips and lap dancing income. Such free lancers are free to charge $10 per song or even $20 or $30 or $40 - or whatever she negotiates with a customer. Obviously such dancers are skilled in arousal techniques. Fucking or Sucking is private business between dancer and customer.

So the club has a great vibe and a mix of beautiful women - young, flirty, eye candy - the payroll girls - who keep the party on even on dead days and the more mature, contract girls who are skilled in getting you cock hard in 60 seconds. Appropriately, they will cost more for the extras provided.

This type of a model will attract thousands of customers every day. And closer to 5000 on weekends. These numbers are 10-100x what strip clubs get today.
You will have everyone who goes to Twins Peaks, Hooters coming to this strip club. All the corporate parties that had abandoned strip clubs will come back. Dads, Husbands and Boyfriends will flock to this club just to watch a ball game - and on occasion sneak a wild moment with a contract stripper. Girl friends and wives will surprising be ok with a bit of stress relief that their partners are yearning for - heck they may make a case for a trip to the Male Revue for their private pleasure.

Every young girl in Middle Town would want to be the "show" girl on payroll for a couple of years.

You can see the key element to success is - celebrate young beauty, god meant it to be enjoyed by one and all - cuz not all female forms (or male forms) are good looking. And of course the contract dancers keep the wild side open - and purely optional - to be enjoyed under moderation !
avatar for san_jose_guy
san_jose_guy
7 years ago
^^^^^^ I don't like your recipe. Don't think it would work either. First of all, can't have the house paying out money to the girls. Hard for the house to take money in. Better to have the girls paying a flat access rate to the house. Girls make more money that way because it draws more guys and more money in.

Also, if you want high mileage, best just to hire as many girls as possible. Keep adding more, as you will always be losing some. This way girls have to do whatever it takes to get money, as they are competing against each other, and this hits some harder than others.

Your recipe is for a clip joint. Mine is for full satisfaction.

SJG

Pat Metheny, Joni Mitchell, Jaco Pastorius, Michael Brecker - "Shadows And Light".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLKb9Ms6…

James Dean, Rebel Without A Cause
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048545/full…
avatar for skibum609
skibum609
7 years ago
In Mass. the dancers are W-2 employees under the law and in 10 years time they will all be employees in every state. The idea that buying lap dances is a waste in my opinion silly. Its why I go. Spending money OTC on women I would never date in real life is the waste in my opinion.
avatar for san_jose_guy
san_jose_guy
7 years ago
Spending dance money on women you wouldn't like to be walking up in the morning with is a waste. Just exacerbating your own sexual frustration.

SJG
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san_jose_guy
7 years ago
correction: "... wouldn't like to be waking up in the morning with ..."

SJG
avatar for Book Guy
Book Guy
7 years ago
Good theory, Rogertex. I have to wonder whether it would work. I can see a lot of good parts to it, but (as SJG also says) the outlay the club would have to give, to dancers on "payroll", is going to be risky. Giving any employee that amount of money as salary can start to be a disincentive for any work getting done; then, you have to have a supervisor who scouts the girls' behaviors, and even watches them in the interactions with the customers and in the lap-dance rooms / locations, to "force" high-quality work out of them. Not sure you want to get into that. A lower amount of salary -- basically, a guaranteed minimum? -- can be an incentive, IME, so maybe you and I agree on the theory but just disagree on some of the specifics.

We don't need to incentivize the customers as much as the dancers, I think. If the demand (customer incentive) starts to drop you have a different set of issues, which nobody's really bringing up here in this thread. We've all assumed the girls will be young and hot and the men will want to interact with them for money. That might not be the case, but, for now, let's assume it is.

To the contrary, the girls need to be incentivized sometimes. That's because you're dealing with (1) many new level employees, who have never had regular work, or seldom have been attending a regular location at regular hours, or at very least have proven themselves bad at that, so you're going to get work-ethic issues, people who just want to "hang out" in the girls' room all night either because they WANT to or because they FORGET not to; (2) many people who have failed at other positions, because of any of a number of (excusable or inexcusable) problems with workplace behavior, such as ... drugs and alcohol and self-control; desire for income versus longer-term planning as compared to shorter-term gratification; attendance, cleanliness, self-presentation; childhood abuse, trauma, memories of male interactions (father issues, etc. etc.); willingness to go "off the radar" or "non-mainstream" rather quickly, as a Borderline personality disorder for example; etc. etc., I'm sure you know what I'm referencing.

SJG has a good point about making the girls compete against one another ... which is roughly the same thing I'm advocating with my revaluation of your salary amount. In fact, my "bio" (or "tag line" or whatever it's called?) on my profile here at TUSCL brings up this very point, though in a somewhat facetious manner. I do think this is a natural human condition, which has been wiped away by much of modern society. It goes along with that whole conglomerate complaint, sometimes made by males in Western mainstream urbanized society, who complain about how the materialist bitches "control" men and are interested in nothing but money. Maybe these problems are just biological, endemic to and permanent in the human condition; or maybe they're conditions that have arisen due to socio-cultural developments, perhaps after the urbanization of mankind, or due to the agricultural or industrial revolution or the Victorian era's social-sexually restrictive mores, or whenever else. But the complaints resound, regularly, here and elsewhere, that women hold all the cards (by which, generally, men mean, "hot women, those whom I wish to fuck, hold all the cards") in the Mars-versus-Venus negotiation and interaction games that lead to dating and mating.

I don't always agree or disagree with the entirety of the complaint -- I am all for the men in questions of child-custody, for instance, where traditionally a male has been assumed to be a worse parent than a female, to the point that a six-figure-earning executive could lose access to his children in favor of a drug-addicted stripper just because she has a coochie and he has a dick; though courts are improving on that subject recently. Yet if that's a reasonable part of the complaint, an unreasonable part is, that "all women" are "just after money and nothing else" (this may or may not be true for "all strippers", different issue), since (obviously) it's often the women whose hearts are broken, and who get extremely emotionally erratic and down, simply due to small approval ratings drops among certain males in their circles. If she only wanted money, she wouldn't freak out when Johnny didn't text her back forty seconds after she texted him. She wants his approval just as much as we want her approval. Maybe the approval IMPLIES ultimate money, material support, or something like that, but the same people who say women are money-grubbers also tend to say they're bad at logic and irrational, so this idea that approval could imply ... ANYTHING ... to her at all, is itself the beginnings of a contradiction in their reasoning. Anyway, I agree with some of the Mars-versus-Venus complaints that men make (f.e. the court / divorce example) but disagree with others (f.e. the over-generalization about money). Now that you get my background, there's a point to be made ...

That point is, to add more to the complaints. Just as this conglomerate nexus of complaints sees a whole socio-cultural bias in our dating-and-mating game going on out there, by which the males are at a severe negotiation disadvantage in what, otherwise, "should feel like a fair interaction between the genders" (define as necessary), so too we can add female competition settings. Into that perceived lack of fairness can be lumped that item as highlighted here -- the fact that available attractive females tend to be placed in positions where they DON'T HAVE TO COMPETE AGAINST ONE ANOTHER in our present social interactions.

And I really feel that this motivates females a LOT more than males tend to credit (at least, tend to credit in that over-generalizing Mars-versus-Venus-talk kind of way). As Jane Austen amply and aptly demonstrates over and over, the girls buy new dresses for the social cotillion not in order to attract more boys, but in order to compete in new-dress-purchase-skills against all the other girls, to find out who "shines the most" by the end of the night. Sure, male attention is ONE aspect of "shining" more than the other girls -- she who is seen by the females in the gathering, as attracting more males, is gaining points against others in this female-to-female competition. But that only goes so far. Also, she has to be seen as "worthy" of that attention (or else she's a "slut" or it will be assumed that the particular boys at this particular cotillion "just don't get it" and therefore the male votes will be discredited thusly) and the most "shining" girl will gain many more points against other girls not by gathering said MALE approval, but by gathering FEMALE approval of her FEMALE accoutrements. Better skill at make-up; better dress; fanciest crazy NEW dress that nobody else ever heard of ("the latest from Paris, didn't you know?" shames almost all the provincial girls, but for the one who arrives late with "the latest from Milan, even later than Paris, oh, you didn't know?"). Etc.

Well, you get my point. But I like repeating it. Women NEED to compete against other women. This is (in essence) why I like strip-clubbing over a lot of other adult-entertainment venues. The self-esteem issues that females face (as mentioned in my original article) are heightened, and the negotiation between Mars and Venus becomes more "natural" for all of us, both genders of heterosexual negotiators. when both I and the females are looking around at a lot of other females who count as hotties. Modern society has washed out, deliberately or not, the female-against-female comparison tactics for both genders. So, it's a useful thing to re-introduce into the market dynamics of a strip club's pricing and overall business structure. (Or any other market dynamics!)
avatar for san_jose_guy
san_jose_guy
7 years ago
What Rogertex is explaining is how show clubs are set up. Except even there they don't pay house money to the girls.

Club needs to bring as much money in the front door as possible. Then they can worry about how it gets divided up.

Show clubs limit the number of dancers per shift and expect them to have a minimum looks level, so that they can make money within the rules, and because many of their clientele don't really engage with the girls, they just see them as symbols.

Shit holes, the kind of club I like, they just hire as many dancers as possible. And they are always adding more because they are always losing some. They have rules, but they know that dancers can't make any money if they follow them.

I know this from times spent talking with the talent agents are our underground Mexican Bar circuit.

The best set up is always when it just comes down to you and the girl. She gets 100% of what you give her, and the house just gets a flat rate from the dancers per shift. Girls will pick who they want to play with. Approaching the girl yourself will carry a huge amount of weight. You play with the girl in the front room. Easier for you to lead it that way. Save booths and back rooms for when your own pants are to come down. And if you are going after a girl like this, plan on bedding down with her.

Front room aggressive girls are lots of fun. You can get to know them, and you can get them really softened up.

And experienced dancers insist that they make more money that way, front room, than they do with 'wanna dance' and a fixed per song rate.

At the shit holes girls just go from one guy or another until they find one who really wants to play. They are taking in money continuously. And if they find someone who really wants to play, they'll be talking OTC, on top of what ever can be done ITC and In The Parking Lot. And of course they like it when guys take them to motels or to their own homes.

And also, being in the front room there is no house cut. House just gets the per shift flat rate.

Of of course when done like that, these girls love makeout sessions. They see that as standard.

SJG
avatar for docsavage
docsavage
7 years ago
I read your comment on my article about strip clubs and the current legal environment and your elaboration on that in this article. You mention in your comment that strippers seem less appealing these days. The lack of appeal may be partly from going to clubs a long time and just getting bored with it. I subjectively feel like that. However, I would agree that there is objectively a decline in the strip club experience. I think you really need to have open entry into an industry or profession to maintain quality and low prices. Competition drives out inferior or overpriced sellers. The strip club industry doesn't have that and I tried to get to the reasons behind that in my article. Without this open competition, prices will continue to go up and quality will go down. Besides this restriction by the government in the number of clubs that I mentioned in my article, the government also restricts the number of potential dancers. Most girls go into this field because they can make more money than in other fields which their level of education or experience would enable them to enter. Government enforced affirmative action has allowed more women to enter higher paying jobs that they would not otherwise been able to get. Government welfare benefits enable more women to stay in lower paying jobs and supplement their income with the government benefits they can get. Things like this constricts the supply of women going into the stripping field and the fewer dancers also lowers the level of competition. Finally, I would agree with you that you aren't just buying a lap dance when you go to a strip club. You do increase your self-esteem by getting an attractive female to spend time with you. When you go to the club you have the ego boost from the attention, the physical contact, someone to talk to, someone to receive affection from, and someone to act as the male provider for. Many men feel a need to be a provider for a female and many women feel a need to have a man provide for them. I believe this need is biologically innate and not just cultural. The increasing prices and declining quality does make it harder to mentally justify continuing to do this for many guys and more guys are giving up on this. I don't have any hard data to point to but I see fewer clubs and fewer customers here in Indiana and have seen comments on the internet from customers in other states that there are fewer clubs and fewer customers these days. The strip club hound blog by a strip club manager and the stripper web forum for dancers have also had comments about fewer clubs and less business in the clubs. This loss of business is related to the not very attractive and not very friendly dancers charging thirty or forty dollars to gyrate on your lap a few minutes.
avatar for san_jose_guy
san_jose_guy
7 years ago
docsavage, not sure if you are replying to me or to our OP. I don't remember saying anything about strip clubs becoming less appealing.

But yes, we there needs to be a steady supply of women going into our strip clubs, and we need to get more strip clubs opened.

Some who run a huge nationwide chain say that the industry is dying, because they see the alcohol sales numbers. I don't care about alcohol though. I think the problem is that so much money is tied up in some of these clubs that the operators are afraid to take risks. In San Francisco most of the clubs are controlled by Deja Vu, all except MBOT and Crazy Horse.

There need to be more clubs getting opened.

There is no shortage of suitable young women who would be happy to work in these clubs. Most always what sex workers want is to be able to approach who they want, and in their own way. But the typical clip joint is set up now to completely control the interactions. This way they maximize the house's money, and stay below the threshold at which LE will take notice. It is not what goes on in the back room which gets a place busted, it is the impression formed by perfectly legal actions in the front room which get a place busted.

At the most extreme places the girls just engage, and quite physically. Though they might not utter the words first themselves, their entire presentation is to pitch FS. So in such a situation, neither of the two parties should be a cop.

Welfare, low income benefits, and affirmative action don't have anything to do with this. Basic job wages are very hard to live off of, and the jobs are stupid. You don't want women acting under duress.

If the negatives are eliminated, lots and lots of young women would jump in.

At the standard clubs there is an understanding, the girls have to follow the rules, but the bosses have got to keep it so that they can make money that way. So this means that they have to limit the number of dancers, and they shouldn't be hiring any who don't have the looks to make money within the rules.

But at dives, they just hire as many as possible. And they keep hiring more, as some are getting squeezed out. And though they probably have the girls sign a sheet of rules, working in such a place is no great privilege, and so as they don't make any money, they quickly see that none of the girls follow such rules.

So that is the main divide, dives which have as many girls as they can, and clip joints which intentionally limit it so that they can manipulate the interactions.

One favorite of mine, from DV Centerfolds SF, one of the tamer clubs, was very angry about the place. Most of the girls I'd ever talked to there disliked the male staff. See, to go over the limits, the girls are tipping them out, and only when the boss is not there. But they consider these male staff to be creeps, self appointed pimps.

So my girl was going to MBOT. She was actually very sex positive, she just did not like that negative environment.

So I asked her, "So MBOT, we can do more there?"

"Oh Lord yes."

She had crossed a line, where she no longer saw the club rules as protecting her, she saw them as using her, stopping her from just doing things as she would want to.

At the best places it is like this, the girls can just do what they want. So it is just between you and the girl, front room and back room. Its not that the house doesn't get money, they get lots of it. They just don't try to manipulate the interactions.

But at show clubs it is never like this, and to keep the girls on board, they have to limit them, make sure that they can make money within the rules.

SJG

Mister Bond - A Jazzy Cocktail Of Ice Cold Themes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVQ8lpPu…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilla…
can be on floats too. Fixed landing gear, twin turbo props.

Notice high aspect ratio and complex flaps. Made for STOL, so it can carry a great deal of weight, but it flies slow for its power. Made on Victoria Island BC.

Twin turbo prop flying boat, Lake
http://www.bush-planes.com/Lake-amphibio…

Sea Wind, 300 hp flying boat. Used to be kit, now certified
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Best of Oshkosh
http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a…

ICON A5
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On trailer
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Glasair Sportsman, can be on 2 or 3 wheels, or on floats. 180hp, or 210hp Continental. Need the extra power for floats and floats with wheels. Can be trailered

http://www.fibertechcomposites.com/galle…

For grass, best to take off wheel pants. But for off airport, 2 wheels best. Can have these huge tundra tires.
avatar for Book Guy
Book Guy
7 years ago
No further discussion necessary, but just thought I'd let you know I'm keeping up with this, "my" article's comments. Great points in the latest comments by docsavage and SJG. I had already checked out your article on related subject, docsavage, and put my own two-cents down at the bottom (as you probably are referencing). We're of accord on several concepts -- the objective experience is declining, f.e. -- but I don't see solutions OR explanations. Just the overall fact of the matter. Can someone EXPLAIN it? I like your welfare-state theories, docsavage, they go partway to an explanation. I think there's more. I don't know, maybe not ...
avatar for san_jose_guy
san_jose_guy
7 years ago
The employment situation, welfare state or not, and especially for women, continues to worsen.

What is also true is that in many many places LE is cracking down on strip clubs, and with new local ordinances.

No shortage of women happy to work in strip clubs.

SJG
avatar for docsavage
docsavage
7 years ago
S.J.G, I just offered the welfare state causing fewer strippers theory as one of a number of supply factors. I agree with you on the other things you mention. I mentioned the legal restrictions being placed on new strip clubs opening as another supply factor in the article I posted recently here. I would agree with you that if the economy worsens we may see more girls trying to get into stripping and other forms of sex work. During the Greek economic crisis recently the number of prostitutes increased and that often happens in that type of situation. In an economic crisis, though, you would also need to look at the demand side of the equation. You may have more unemployed men so at the same time more women may want to be strippers you may have fewer men able to be customers. You could already have some of that as a factor on why fewer guys are in the clubs. If you are a guy in a recession proof profession, there may be lots of opportunities if you still have an income as the economy worsens. I also think there are other factors extraneous to supply and demand. For example, you have the substitute goods effect. Technological advances like the internet have made it easier for guys to hook up with women and some guys have switched over to that. Readily available porn on the internet causes some guys to switch to that. It's not like my younger days where you had to drive to some seedy theater to see porn. Some younger guys even prefer spending their time on video games or all the media available on the internet. It's not like 1960 with three television networks, a top forty radio station and the only way to see a movie is to walk down to the neighborhood theater. I might also mention that the internet also provides lots of game theory on how to psychologically manipulate women into having sex and some guys are busy applying that instead of dropping money at strip clubs. I could go on but the point I'm trying to make is that the decline of the industry is multi-causal. You can ask 20 people why strip clubs have declined and get 20 answers and there's some truth to all of them. We may never see a return to the golden days of ten dollar lap dances that book guy fondly remembers (me too). One good thing, though, for guys who kept this as a hobby I would say that forums like this offer lots of good tips, reviews and articles. You didn't have sites like TUSCL before the internet days and that is one thing that's better now.
avatar for san_jose_guy
san_jose_guy
7 years ago
Well, what I have seen is that harsher LE pressure does not stop the sex industry. All it does is lower the attractiveness of the selections. It forces it to be older women. The young ones only operate is lower risk venues. And you see how this unfolds most dramatically on the street.

Back in my SF Redbook days, some people showed links to the selections in other countries. They put what was then in our AAMPs to shame.

This is just how it works.

And none of this is a hard demand either. Rather, it is a product of our society that more and more guys want to partake and partake regularly. It used to be much less.

SJG

PCC Forum - "Henri Bergson: Philosopher of Life" - Prof. Spyridon Koutroufinis (1-2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gChhE3k2…

Survival: The Phenomenon of Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rxK3S6L…
avatar for Jascoi
Jascoi
7 years ago
wow. idk it was so complicated.
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