The Horrid Bait-and-Switch of a ROB

We all need a reminder from time to time, John232425. Some of the cutest babes that promise the world, but fail to deliver should not be rewarded. I've walked out of many VIP's when I figured she was only out to take all my money.

How is she a ROB?

She told you what the dances consisted of and the price of them. You decided to let her continue and give you a dance.

She hustled you and took advantage of your horniness. But she didn't ROB.

Ok, so you lost $30. And?

Sure it stinks, but that's kinda the point of pay-as-you-go. You keep buying more if you like it and you walk away with a nominal hit to the wallet if you do not. Unless she works in a club with a steady stream of tourists, this will catch up to her sooner or later when regular club customers stop buying dances from her altogether and others cut her off at 1 or 2. No extraordinary efforts needed on our part, lol.

Good points for newbs but here on TUSCL you are preaching to the choir; but nevertheless there are newbs on TUSCL all the time that can use this info - but as a seasoned SCer one should know how to take control of the situation and not be "flabbergasted" - being "flabbergasted" at the treatment of some dancers in SCs is like being "flabbergasted" w.r.t. the traffic crunch in a SC.

If all she was gonna give me was an air-dance I am not paying $30 for an air-dance; for $30 I expect a lap-dance and I may have even gotten up as soon as I saw her SS and not even get nor pay for one dance at let the chips fall where they may if she wants to get management involved.

There are always gonna be ROBs just like they are always gonna be dishonest salespeople that work on !00% commission per se; and in many clubs that get new custy faces all the time and there are lots of custies to choose from; many a ROB has little incentive to change her ROB ways since there's a new sucker walking in the door every minute (in busy enough clubs).

But yeah; ROBs are to be confronted if not they are emboldened - but fact is too many green PLs get easily intimidated, give-in, and pay-up; all we can do is do our part as experienced SCers but it will not be enough but something is something especially w/ a site like this to get the word out and educated newbies.

It was not a bait-and-switch, nor was she a ROB. She was upfront with you with Her structure and you chose to proceed, but after the fact are upset it wasn't what you wanted.

I'll agree with most TUSCL vets here- it was not a ROB act, but it definitely was bait & switch. One of the functions of TUSCL is to identify and avoid these ROBs. Name names. What was her name, which club was this, and what does she look like? I had something similar happen in New Orleans, and I was up and out of the booth in 30 seconds. I told the attendant to keep the room fee ($5), but I wasn't paying her. The manager came over to talk to me, and comp'd me two room fees with a different dancer. Your results may vary, but I had brought in three other guys from out of town with me who were spending money like maniacs.

Maybe I have bad reading comprehension but it sounds like she started dancing then informed him he was paying $30 for an Air dance. She is under no obligation to tell you it's an air dance(really, what incentive is there in that?) but if the expectation is full contact or even one way for $30 and she's doing an air dance this is Rob tactics and should be discouraged. This does not make her a Rob though.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this, but OP has some culpability in this situation. In my many decades of clubbing, I don't think I've ever uttered the word "tip" in my pre dance conversations. I suspect that is the case with many other experienced clubbers. OP merely gave dancer an opening to upcharge. He "tipped" his hand early in the game of cards.

Although subject dancer has the earmarks of a ROB, IMO a "rob" did not really occur here. If he'd just kept his mouth shut, and got the airdance, then decided to cut it off at 1, all he got was a lousy dance.

To elaborate/split hairs further: My definition of ROB is a dancer that either charges more than "normal" for the dances, or does not deliver the level of service promised. It sounds to me like so called "VIP" is merely a secluded area with a pay as you go structure. Now if business model had a structure where you had to pay an upfront fee to go there (i.e., dancer in basic area said you can't touch me here, but we can do that in VIP), then pulled her stunt after you paid the upfront VIP fee, then yes that would definitely be a ROB case.

"Before we headed back I had communicated that I had been there several times and normally purchased 4-8 dances and then tipped based upon my “enjoyment”.
"

I don't think this really constitutes an ROB, it is just a girl who doesn't know what she is doing. But the above statement set the stage for it, treating the girl like a vending machine and creating lots of ambiguity.

Letting a girl sell dances to you is a chumps game anyway. Front room friendliness. Get her to sit with you, on your lap is best, and start feeding her money and see how far it can go. This is not just test driving, it is trying to build rapport with her. Best is if you can get a makeout session going with her.

And there should be no house cut to the money. Just treat her as if she was a girl you just met at a party. Feed her money, but still keep the conversation 100% civilian at all times.

Be nice about it and turn on some charm and see what you can make happen.

Save the booths and back rooms until needed, like when your own pants are to come down.

Then maybe take her home with you too.

SJG

This girl is not an ROB. She told you the price and you agreed to it. These girls are all private contractors. What you should be doing is getting to know the girl first. YOU DON'T DO THAT IN THE BACK ROOM. You do that in the front room. After you get to know her in the front room then if YOU chose to do so you then can take her to the back to fulfill the fantasy that you have already worked out and negotiated in the front room. You did not have to do anything or spend anything back there. If you didn't like the price you should have excused yourself and walked away.

^^^^^^ The Master Himself, Jestrite50.

To the OP, these negotiations with girls can easily get into crossed wires. And the typical pattern is letting a girl you have no sexual rapport with sell you dances and take you past the house toll gate and into a booth or back room. No reason to do this.

The girls do it this way because this is what they are taught to do, and because it is a competitive environment, and because most guys are chicken in the face of a beautiful young woman, and because this way the house gets more money.

But just because the girls try to do it this way does not mean that you have to go along with it.

The more aggressive the girls are being, the easier that makes it for you to be aggressive with them.

Having said this, it carries a great deal of weight with a girl if you are clearly the one selecting her. This applies, even though it is a P4P environment.

And then the more friendly you can get with her in the front room, feeding her money on an ongoing basis, the more likely it is that she will really open up to you, and then what happens in the back room will be phenomenal.

But beware, if you do it this way, the odds that you will end up waking up with her the next morning start to become very high.

When girls have worked in wilder and woolier clubs, where it is more competitive and where there really are no rules, they quickly learn that "wanna dance" is not a very smart strategy. It is merely inviting refusal, and letting the house get too much of the money.

So they learn that the best way is just to do, instead of asking. And then they will indicate that they would like some money.

As to what they do, it varies, but it will often include some grinding and maybe titties in the face, like a table dance. But it may also include lap siting ( without asking ), package grabbing ( without asking ), and in some of the most extreme clubs it is often nibbling on your ear and licking your neck, basically defying you to DKF them. And then in some places they aren't even that coy about it, they just get their tongue into your mouth right off.

While I still don't think it best to completely let the girl drive it, I again say that the more forward they are being, the easier it is for you to be forward. And so let her do what she wants and don't resist. But then you take the lead by using words and tone of voice to increase the intensity. This slows it down a bit, but without your actually resisting her.

And if the girls is not going to play on your lap, then just politely give her a bit more money and send her on her way. Just don't ever talk to them like you see them as selling sex or sex acts for money.

But then don't be surprised if right away another, one who had been observing the interaction, jumps right in to take her place, and does not hold back at all.

At our own local above boards clubs here in Santa Clara County CA, it is never anything like this. But girls looking to set up a same night OTC will sometimes disregard all rules and engage in intense DFKing.

And then at the underground shows in some local Mexican Bars, with some truly beloved Latina Escorts backed up by girls from S.F. Market St. Cinema, that is an entirely different story.

SJG

Alban Berg Lulu Suite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=025dWp9O…

Pick the cheapest type of dance at the SC for exactly 1 song, if she knocks your hands off, or pins them, dont continue. Dont ask the rules, you will always get the "touching fee" then. When at the POS, or before you agree to the dance, tell the stripper, "if I like the XXX[cheapest]XXX dance, I'll go to VIP with you". She knows she is being watched for performance now and the rules magically disappear (no hand pushing off, maybe 1 or 2 lip to lip kisses, etc). I've had once case where a a stripper kissed a few times in semi-private LD, and then in private room pushed my face away each time and became all dom instead of sub. She never worked at my SC again tho.

s88, I agree with a portion of what you are saying and the general sense of it. But you can't be that tough on them or that insistent with them. And, it is always better to get friendly with them in the front room, not for free, but because that way there is no structure built into it. And also, there should be no house cut of the money. So just be yourself and talk to her in a completely civilian manner, like she was a girl you met at a party. Feed her money, but let her get totally off script. Not at all uncommon to get an intense makeout session going. That is the time to then go to the back room. Also not uncommon to find yourself waking up in the morning with your new girl.

SJG

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Spirituality within The Imperial Orgy
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ROLLING STONES LOVE YOU LIVE-IF YOU CAN'T ROCK ME & GET OFF MY CLOUD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwuF1hIN…

I've found if I ask a dancer her rules (1) before I've spent any money on her and (2) before the dance starts, it tends to be "no touching." This is a case if I lead and she doesn't follow.

I've found if I ask the dancer her rules (1) after I've spend money on her in the front room and flirted & engaged with her and (2) while we are *still* in the front room, she tends to respond that she'll allow touching and be very direct and okay about it. This is a case of she leads and I follow.

See, I think it is the approach. CP mentions (along with other experienced mongers) he never asks for rules and just touches the girl. There's a way to do that and get what you want. And there is a way to approach it the wrong way and turn the girl off. After a while she will get with the program if the club's or the region's norms are for touching.

I do think you and she need to be able (at a minimum) to read each other. She leads and you follow. What you follow with is mileage (or extras) and money. What she leads with? That's up to her and her boundaries.

I feel I'm starting to get to the point that, I too, don't need to ask the rules and after spending time talking and flirting with her (which I am starting to no longer $$ compensate, thanks guys!), I feel like I can feel her out for what she will allow. If I waste $20 or so on dance from a dud, big deal. And this is coming from a frugal sonofabitch.

There are clubs where one should clarify things upfront and others not so much - there are clubs where good-mileage is pretty-much standard and you get what you pay for most of the time w/ some outliers - then there are clubs w/ hit or miss mileage or w/ a higher propensity of ROBs and this is where one should not let their guard-down and one should dot their i's and cross their t's ahead of time.

I tend to avoid dancers that want to charge more than the going-rate although I understand they are allowed to do this as "independent contractors" - but some slicksters wanna tell you after they given you the dances and want to intimidate you into paying up - I give them the going-rate and they can take it or leave it - if they wanna charge higher prices they gotta tell me upfront; not pull any ole price they want after the fact - and the ones that do tell me ahead of time 99% of the time I pass - I've SCed too long and have been with all kinds of dancers to be too hard-up for one that wants to charge more (which often times their dances are not even as good as the dancers charging regular prices) - being a single PL w/ no S.O. and no kids means I can hit the SC pretty-much whenever I want and don't feel I gotta have any one dancer right there and then b/c I would not know when my next visit would be.

"I've found if I ask a dancer her rules..."

Dominic77, I say you are partially right, as you've discovered something important. But only partially right.

Civilianize!

Front Room Friendliness!

First thing to do is hand her some money. It is a show of respect. Then treat her like you are at a party and have just met her.

If she is getting hot and heavy with you in the front room, then you won't have any problems with her in the back room, or in your own bed room either, and you don't need to ask her about any rules. Talk to her yes, as that softens her up, helps her let her guard down.

If she is not willing to let go and let it happen that way, then be patient with her. But aving discussions about it only makes it worse, not better.

SJG

http://www.holytaco.com/r-i-p-king-of-do…

Good overall advice, but here's a question. How much time did you spend talking with your girl upfront before you went the VIP route? Just spending an extra couple of dollars during the meeting phase puts you in a higher category than most SC patrons. A 15 minute conversation where you sell yourself on not being an asshole makes your girl more comfortable, which definitely benefits you. During meet and greet time, you should literally and figuratively get a feel for your girl and see how she responds. If she's feeling you in the common area, she will definitely be feeling in the VIP room.

^^^^^^ I agree 100%.

You read the angry stuff customers write on yelp, and it always fits a pattern, they agreed to "buy a dance" from a girl they had no rapport with. Then they ended up having to pay for something which greatly dissatisfied them. Really stupid, in my opinion.

But my position is that if you think the whole thing through, then you will see that letting girls "sell you dances" is a chumps game.

Not only should you build rapport with her in the front room, you should shift the primary locus of your interaction with her to the front room. Save the booths and back rooms until they are really needed, like when your pants are going to come down.

You should still be feeding her money in the front room, and there should be no house cut.

But always treat her like a civilian, never like someone who sells sex or sex acts for money, and never try to use money to persuade her to do anything. The money is just a show of respect and care.

Ideally you should be able to get friendly with her and get a full blown makeout session going. If you can do that, you won't have any trouble with her in the back room, or for that matter in your own bedroom.

Just because it is offered in a particular way in strip clubs, this does not mean that you have to go along with it. Lap dancing started as lap sitting. And what else that entailed ran the fullest possible range.

Booths and backrooms came later, after most of the legal battles were over, after it was all going corporate ( Deja Vu ), and also LaCosa Nostra.

People think the booths and backrooms increase the mileage. More often than not this is not true. All they do is increase the costs and the house cut, and they also lock you into a more passive style of interacting with your dancer.

People need to think these things thru some. There is room for improvement in US strip clubs, but the greater need for improvement is in the US strip club customers.

SJG

ROLLING STONES LOVE YOU LIVE-IF YOU CAN'T ROCK ME & GET OFF MY CLOUD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwuF1hIN…

I agree with everyone's comments about getting to know the girl out in the front room first. When I first started clubbing I learned early on some very important rules for sussessful clubbing.

#1. Never buy a dance from a girl until you've seen here stage performance. Those tits may be big but the could be all saggy. He stomach could be a road map of stretch marks. These things are not seen until you see the merchandise dancing on stage.
#2. Get to know your girl first ask her questions out front and see how she reacts. See what her answers are. See what her rules are or what the club rules are. After you find out the rules that may not be the type of dance you are looking for. All of this takes 15-20-30 minutes out in the front room. I tell the wanna dance girls to sit down and let's talk it over. If they aren't willing to do that they sure as hell don't plan on giving you any quality time on the couches.
#3. At the first sign you see that she is not going by the agreements you made out front get up and walk away. Don't fall for the SS promises that the more dances you buy the better mileage you will get. We just have to start using our big head to think things through and stopletting the little head control our decisions.

All this is a commentary on the sad state of SCs in America. We're pursuing victimless, but still semi or totally illegal stuff, and our options are limited if a supplier flakes on us. Like with a back-alley drug deal gone bad; you're certainly not going to the police. In Germany at FKKs by contrast, everything is legal and spelled out, so no surprises (or if there are, there's recourse). I'd live there if it wasn't so fucking dreary most the time.

So, like most folks advise, I trial the girl on the floor first, and usually over the course of a couple/three SC trips. Consistency is a major predictor of VIP success. My bad experiences have almost always come after a hasty decision, usually made while squelching a nagging suspicion of being duped. Basically, the big patient head momentarily loses out to the little impatient one.

The last time it happened (the girl had one excuse after the next to leave - getting cigs, condoms, wipes, etc.), I just sat there and stared at ceiling thinking, "Motherfucker - I just fell for it again." I was less angry at the ROB that I was at me for cratering.

Stay vigilant...

Good way to break it down Rod - that's why I never pay the dancer upfront no matter what excuse she throws at me and if she doesn't deliver on what was agreed to then I walk out & don't pay her & deal w/ the manager or bouncer if she decides to get them involved - obviously if one is gonna do this one can't stay in VIP too long and then not pay the dancer, i.e. if I notice the dancer stalling and not getting down to what was agreed upon within the 1st 5-minutes then I walk out.

I was at the Sundowner in Niagara Falls a few weeks ago. At this club, the girls are naked on stage and in the lap dance room. The first dancer I took back got naked immediately and I had two good dances from her. Good value. The next dancer, not so much. She finally got topless halfway through the second dance. I commented that I expected that she would have been nude by then. She said that she wouldn't get naked until dance number four. I said, "That's nice. Then we're done."

Dancer number 3 was an honest-to-God babe. Huge, soft, natural DDs, a wasp waist, and flaring hips, with a face that had features and expressions like Ashley Judd on her very best day.

She was also a slow starter, and I only waited through one dance before asking. She was smart enough to realize that if she got naked early in the next dance, there would be several more. She did, and there were.

i just experienced this a couple of days ago in deja Vu Coi. a girl I've known for probably about a year and I've had a couple of nice topless and a nice nude with her... A couple of days ago we talked in the showroom about what I was wanting in VIP... she said OK... so we went into the VIP. out of her normal pattern she asked for a tip in advance. I gave her half. I said the rest the depended on her. well into the VIP nothing had happened yet. it was nice... don't get me wrong... but it wasn't what all I wanted. it certainly NOT what we had agreed on in the show room prior. so stupidly I gave her the other half. short story is all I got out of it was a CBJ along with the normal moves that she is giving me before in both topless and nude. I can say I am displeased and unsatisfied with her actions. we had agreed on a full triple xxx rated time. you know I got out of it was a GP 13 dance. I consider it a Rob move. I certainly won't have anything to deal with her again.

her name is London . Beautiful black girl known as London 2.0 on boned in.

This shit comes straight from StripperWeb. I read a few Hustle Hut threads advising exactly this idea: to tack on additional prices for standard dances. They all say to do this bullshit if the club allows contact and nudity during dances.

I wouldn't have even paid the $30 myself. But maybe he paid her up front.