A Tough Topic: Sex Trafficking

You are right on a couple of points: (i) this is a strange topic for a strip club forum, and (ii) pursuit of "Johns" would be futile and counterproductive. However, as far as the US is concerned, my opinion is that this is a solution is search of a problem. Certainly this is true insofar as strip clubs and sex with strippers is concerned. I've made hundreds of visits to stip clubs (maybe thousands, who knows) and I have never once seen a woman dancing who I suspected could possibly be underage. There have been lots of cute 18 to 21 year olds to be sure, but never someone who could pass for under 18. I have also never encountered a dancer who I suspected was truly being forced into her profession. Yes there have been lots of girls with abusive boyfriends who live off of their stripping income, but that is not coercion. Those girls made bad choices in life and were living with the consequences. I know this issue gets a lot of media coverage, but it really is an issue in other countries and not in the US. If there were truly a problem in the US with sex workers who are underage, or who are being forced into sex work, I find it hard to believe that I would never have encountered a single example of that happening in dozens and dozens of strip clubs throughout the entire country.

Sex trafficking is just a scam foisted on us by progressives and feminists who believe women are equal and have the right to choose anything they want as long as left wingers approve. Providence used "sex trafficking" as an excuse to go after the AMP's a few years ago and last year when they went after strip clubs> How many women did they find who had been trafficked? At last count zero. They found one underage dancer doing tricks at Cheaters, but to be fair I recall when her pimp went to trial and was convicted on numerous charges for making a living prostituting 13 year olds and had he been convicted in a Red State he'd have been in jail, not released to do it again because of his long history of priors. I have been going to strip clubs for 38 years and see zero evidence of sex trafficking as about 90% of the women are locals and the others immigrants.

Sex trafficking is very real and ti's a serious problem. I agree that it's not a problem at strip clubs where the owners keep photocopies of the strippers ID's on file to prove to the police that they're not hiring underage girls to strip, but it is a huge problem with prostitutes since pimps are not regular businesses with fixed physical locations like strip clubs.

I want to legalize prostitution. If it's legal, prostitutes won't be breaking any laws and the police will protect them the same way they protect strippers. There are very, very few cases of women forced to work at strip clubs but there are many cases of pimps forcing women to work as prostitutes. It's kind of hard for a woman to go to the cops and say, "I broke the law....." and that's why pimps get away with it.

Well the only way I see strip clubs as "sex trafficking" is when some of the dancers are forced to work there by pimps. I know it is at no fault from the club. Because the women come to work. But sometimes the pimps make them work in the clubs for "steady" income and to get leads for OTC. Now those instances are few and far between. But I have seen them. I was talking to a dancer who said....that is dancers X's pimp and he is keeping a sharp eye on her. So it is in the clubs a little.

It might not be a widespread problem, but you are right that it is a serious problem because it is trending higher (whether through actual organic growth or due to better awareness and reporting remains to be seen). However, as others have noted it is likely to be a vanishingly small problem in strip clubs, so while you will have sympathy for the issue here, we rarely if ever encounter situations in the club that match your concerns.

If you just want to keep awareness levels up fine, but you might have actual traction at the various escorting sites around the Web. While there are plenty of independents in that world, they are familiar with the Backpage-type milieu which I am given to understand where you will find more sex trafficking cases. Try eccie.net for starters and ask for help there spreading the message maybe?

I feel I need to clarify:

I wasn't saying sex trafficking was a 1 to 1 relation to strip clubs. I've just found that many men that frequent strip clubs tend to be interested in sex. Many that would pay for sex inside the club, tend to be willing to pay for it OTC. And if you're willing to have sex with a stripper in a hotel room…many times that stripper also works as an escort…which can lead to purchasing escort services, etc…

I personally prefer strip clubs. You get a show, a variety, a choice of women. And there's a bit of "mystery" (unless it's Tijuana) as to whether they will "go all the way" for $$$. AND…it's a relatively safe environment…much less likely to be the target of a sting or raid. And the women are at least somewhat screened in terms of at the least minimal employability. The downside is expense. It's $10 to get in the door, you're dropping about $20 in drinks, another $20 in stage tipping, and $45-$90 in lap dances…thats $140 before you ever go VIP. Now add another $145-$225 for sex…$25-$50 for a tip…you're out $nearly $400 for a fun evening.

Massage parlors vary…could run $285 for full on sex…plus a nice massage…or you could pay $125 and get a very bad massage and just an hj. Hit or miss.

Compare that to an escort that will give you a quickie for $80-$100. There's "mystery"…no entertainment…just in, out, over.

But the reason for the article was more for the fellas like myself…who have, do, will, may partake in those variety of services…does it concern you? Do you ever worry that you're contributing to "human trafficking"? Do you think there's a way to stop it? Do you agree with politicians that think going after Johns will be effective?

I've always looked at it as an exchange of services for money. I never force anyone. But there have been times I worry. I met a young escort once…she claimed to be 23. She sure didn't look 23!! She was clearly addicted to drugs. What was the story? Could I have done something to help? I don't know.

More than a few times…massage parlors…women that can't speak English…obviously someone is importing them from Vietnam or somewhere like that. Are they "trafficked" Was I contributing to the problem? Could I have done anything to help them? I don't know.

So I guess the article was just something to talk about…toss around. Thanks.

I think the level of sex trafficking in clubs varies by location and the club. Around Chicago, there are a lot of illegal Eastern Europeans working in clubs but they are not connected with pimps as far as I can tell.

The Asian massage parlors/escorts is another matter though. There are a few well known agencies that rotate these girls weekly. They do not speak English, and they provide the service but are decidedly not enjoying it more often than not. Prices are cheap: $150 an hour is common. I do not partake of this service myself, but I do know that many of these girls are underage as well.

It's important that LE makes a distinction between this part of the sex industry and the voluntary escorts working from home or a cheap room. And the SC world is really completely different. Unfortunately the politicians tend to lump all sex work into one category which doesn't serve any purpose at all as far as I can tell.

Leonard213 mentioned the link with drugs, which in my experience is a major factor. My ATF is a heroin addict and has been for more than 10 years. Before I knew her she was buying from a dealer, needed a place to live and moved in with him. He tried to increase her income beyond stripping by putting her on the street. She left & found a new dealer. Two years ago she was on methadone but heavily using crack. Same thing; her dealer tried to turn her out and wanted to be her pimp. Most of the dancers who I've met OTC are drug addicted and you can call them dealers or call them pimps but it's all about control of women who have surrendered their ability to say no. I've never been a customer at an AMP but friends describe non-English speaking young females who seem to be pretty closely "supervised". I've come to grips with my own hypocrisy regarding fucking drug addicted dancers, but i can't deal with the whole underage problem. I don't encounter "trafficked" women to the best of my knowledge, but certainly see the nature of the problem

Legalization of prostitution is not a cure all for sex trafficking, in some cases it actually makes it easier. Amsterdam has been proof of that, Germany also.

If alcohol prohibition didn’t work – and “the war on drugs” hasn’t done much better – I don’t think that “prohibiting” sex for $$$ will work much better – for the most part women that do it and make their living from it don’t want for it to be prohibited – prostitution is the older profession in the world for a reason.

And this view of women being hopeless victims – def there are scenarios like that – but most of them are as aggressively pursuing custies and custies are pursuing them – I don’t recall having to try really hard to convince dancers in SCs to give me dances – often times they are the ones pushing and doing the convincing.

Making sex for $$$ go away does not necessarily mean the end of exploitation and abuse of women by some men.

“… some congressmen and Senators have started drafting legislation that would punish Johns more than in the past. Other countries have also tried this approach. Instead of locking up the whores, you let them be and come down HARD on the Johns …”

I’m not “Mr. International” – but it seems to me most industrialized countries (and many not so industrialized) have much more lax laws w.r.t. prostitution including many that do not criminalize it at all as opposed to the U.S. – if you are talking about coming down “HARD” on “johns” that have sex w/ minors or that force women to have sex with them – then sure – that is different.

First Leonard, let's be clear that you are referring to the legislatures of individual states and not the U.S. Congress. As we all know, the regulation of prostitution in the United States is not among the enumerated powers of the federal government under the Constitution and, hence, is left to the states (which is why it is legal in parts of NV).

With that said, a few states have passed tougher laws focusing on johns, but I believe that the harshest penalties are being reserved for johns who solicit minors.

Now I agree that applying serious criminal charges when two grown adults are involved is simply ludicrous, but I have a hard time disagreeing with those provisions focusing on johns who solicit minors. Honestly, I have zero fucking sympathy for a grown man who gets caught with his dick in a 15 year old girl, regardless of whatever excuses he may have.

rickdugan-

I was referring to a state issue in California where a Republican state senator was proposing a change to the laws in California where ANY prostitution would result in a potential felony conviction for the John. The judge would have discretion IF it was a 1st offense. For subsequent offenses it would be a mandatory felony.

The law does not specify trafficking and/or underage "victims" nor does it increase penalties against the prostitutes themselves nor their pimps. It is primarily focused at johns.

It's not the law now, it is being proposed/drafted. Laws were already strengthened in 2012 when the voters passed a proposition that would link pimps and business owners with the human trafficking laws. It also would register pimps as sex offenders.

In my opinion, to echo a lot of conversation here…it seems that law enforcement should focus on traffickers, rapists, kidnappers, and pimps rather than going hard after johns. I feel that going hard after johns only drives the problem underground.

Take last night for example. I met with a young lady at a hotel. After meeting her and spending some time with her…I realized she wasn't the woman that answered the phone. I asked her who answered the phone and she said "boss…my boss." She spoke little English but from what I could gather has been in the country for 4 months and within the last 4 weeks has started working as an escort.

Well, as a "john"….imagine if I didn't have to fear being charged with soliciting a prostitute and my name added to the sex offender registry. Imagine if I could, on my way out, tell the front desk or call a hotline or even flag down a passing police officer. I could have possibly improved her situation or at least put her "bosses" behind bars where they belong. But nope. It's a shame.

I like to think I am progressive, but the strategy of conflating prostitution to human or sex trafficking is a convenient way of getting around free will. No one in their right mind would defend child prostitution or forced prostitution. If you can make all prostitution forced prostitution then you have to address all prostitution. This is an incredible disingenuous argument and I fear it is gaining political traction.

There was a study done a few years back about sex trafficking in Atlanta which focused on Asian massage parlors. It report got a lot of sympathy for the working girls. AMPs were raided and it made great press for the APD. Local news stations got some titillating coverage during sweeps week, and a bunch of Asian girls got arrested, or rescued, depending on your point of view. When another group looked at the report and its underlying data it showed that if the report was correct then nearly 1 in 4 Asians in Atlanta were trafficked. It also numerous other flaws in the report. This go nearly attention from the media.

A few years ago indoor prostitution was not illegal in Rhode Island. this was due to how poorly the legislation was written. It specifically prohibited street walking but nothing else. It was challenged because the customer was to be charged with a misdemeanor and the prostitute was to be charged with a felony. As this got more and more media attention it became an embarrassment for the state. The state was able to quickly pass a law to close the loophole. First thing the cops did was to bust escorts. They then set up stings to catch the customers. They actually got the Patriots mascot. Then they went after the AMPs and arrested a number of women. The problem was none of them were trafficked or were doing this against their will. Again that got little news coverage.

They also use the argument that money does not equal consent. It basically says that when you exchange money for sex, you are not getting the consent to have sex. It is in fact a form of rape. No women can consent to being a prostitute no matter how intelligent she is, well educated she is, it just cannot be done. This is an insane argument used as a means to get around the issue of free will and choice.

If you build a police and legal machine for this then you will have to feed the machine. We have the highest prison population in the world for a reason. Just think about it.

While I don't believe in free will, strictly speaking, there is such a thing as human volition (though it's always influenced by factors outside itself). For that reason, I find big johnson's comments some of the better ones I've read re prostitution. Legalization is not a panacea; even in Amsterdam, abuses do happen. But that just means the laws need to be written well & enforced consistently. We already "feed the machine"--look at the War On Drugs.

Agreed BJohnson.

They recently also had an embarrassing case in Hawaii when they tried to toughen prostitution laws and found a clause in the law that allows undercover police to actually have sex with prostitutes during the course of an investigation. Originally the legislature attempted to remove it but cop organizations lobbied to keep it in claiming in some cases they needed to actually penetrate the hookers in order to complete the investigation.

I can't make that up…just google it. I'm NOT kidding!

On the radio I heard a lady from some anti-prostitution organization and she was going on and on about how California is on the "cutting edge" by proposing legislation aimed at the consumers of prostitution (johns). But like you said, these people just don't "get it". They assume that every prostitute is forced into it and pimped. They forget that MOST strippers and escorts are doing it for drugs…some that became addicted on their own, others that were fed the drugs to make them slaves.

I HATE human trafficking. I hate the pimps and the gangs and smugglers and the ancestral parents that would push or drag innocent women or go so far as to kidnap innocent girls. I cringe at every horrible story I hear. And I feel bad every time I end up in a situation where I pay for sex and get any indication that the woman may not be the one truly profiting from it. And I would APPLAUD any government that would be so brave as to legalize prostitution, make it safe, disease free, and taxable. I'd applaud them for making prostitutes valuable workers rather than trash. I'd applaud police organizations for going after pimps and traffickers and gangs and kidnappers rather than hookers and johns (easy targets). I'd love the day when I could meet up with an escort, and if I have any suspicions, I could report it with no fear of retribution nor liability.

But we can't even legalize pot in this country…so I guess it's a pipe dream to assume we'd take that step. Despite the fact that I could find a prostate/escort an hour…every day….with nothing more than a cell phone and internet connection….we still live with the hypocrisy that it's only okay to bang escorts when you're a cop in Hawaii.

Oh yeah…and worse story I ever heard from an escort…was a cop, plain clothes, that after going to her room showed her his badge, called 2 fellow police officers, then proceed to rape her and beat her then stole her money and left. And thats not uncommon. Many escorts will have a story or two of where an officer offered leniency in exchange for sexual favors. Hypocrisy.

Until women are perceived to have value around the world there will always be a problem. Muslim women are lower than property and in Asia female children are sometimes killed at birth or sold at young ages. Underage trafficking should be dealt with harshly. It seems the best way is to legalize prostitution and then prosecute the traffickers up to and including public hanging. The puritanism that still rears it ugly head in the US forces it underground, makes it more profitable and brings in the vicious criminal to operate the ring. I have been in massage parlors but have left if the girls are not a mix of all races, speak English and do not look high. I have never seen evidence of trafficking in any strip clubs although I think it would be much more difficult to hide and control the slaves due to customer traffic and public scrutiny. Even in Detroit the cops would not be that blind. Punishing the participants won't work. That guy who pimped out that 13yo at Cheaters in Providence was a pro at what he did and had fake photo ID and likely had a wink-wink deal with the Cheater manager who was to lazy to check the girl out. I read he had been in and out of east coast blue state jails and never really held accountable for underage trafficking. That is typical if the liberal mentality that sees nothing wrong with underage girls fucking 40 year old senators or homosexual men seducing 15 year old boys. They have no respect for the law and think they can pick and choose what applies to themselves and their friends. A prime example of this is the Providence RI state senator when a citizen asked him why he voted to violate the U.S. Constitution the senator turned and looked at the citizen and said "GO FUCK YOURSELF" then the aid leaned toward the citizen and repeated "Go Fuck Yourself" pushed the microphone back turned and walked off. Politicians now consider themselves to be above the law, do not give a crap about what laws are needed or work, and unless there is a scandal to exploit only are interested in lining their own pockets and live like royalty. Vote-em all out.

Just my 2 cents. I agree with many posts, but i also believe that the mass media has taken somewhat isolated cases and allowed them to be run as "major investigations". And when you dig through it, it's something that politicians love to show it as "they care" and they grandstand and create laws that can't be enforced, or only get enforced for the show factor. I look at the articles every time events like the Super Bowl come out and how the media will spend weeks on 'cracking down' - and in reality it was so minor. Nobody should be forced, but there needs to be a way to actually impact the "bad seeds" instead of hitting the media feel good items. I really agree with TIRED on the last comments about above the law. And i do think if done well, legalizing it might take away some of the bad items.