discussion comment
5 years ago
Wall: yeah, the notion that checking reviews is being "spoon fed" is a little absurd, but everyone likes to justify their position as the moral high ground lol. I use dancer reviews on tuscl less than I did on sfredbook, just because there's less dancer mentions on tuscl (depending on locale, as Rick pointed out), and there's just not that critical mass "wisdom of the crowds" effect. I still read and note reviews that mention dancer names, but it's rare to find good g-2 on strippers here -- a clear missed opportunity, hence my frequent muckraking about what tuscl values in reviews
discussion comment
5 years ago
Yeah, 1/2 to 3/4 of SF strippers actually live in Oakland, surprise surprise. Oakland clubs could snatch them all up, if they could do enough business (if they existed at all)
discussion comment
5 years ago
Before my time, but they were all driven out of Oakland, if I remember right?
For a long time there was that one swingers club in Oakland, that one night a week imported in a bunch of hot strippers to cavort with the clientele. Never went but heard it was great. Ironically, probably just up SJG's alley -- private club, hot strippers, front room action, back room action.
discussion comment
5 years ago
High Altitude Sex Experience. The two of you were hanging from joists on the ceiling?
discussion comment
5 years ago
Muddy, remind me, were you the guy who did the cross-country SC tour? That would definitely give you a perspective on direct comparisons most wouldn't have. On the other hand, there's also always a bit of a "first timer's wonderment" factor that could be coloring things. In any case, I am 100% with you on the notion of low-cost extras with high-volume 6s not being an appealing notion to me, and my sense is that that is what some of the most popular clubs on tuscl (like Follies) offer. It's also part of the reason Tijuana doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, although I know those girls are (supposedly) much more attractive, the "every girl is available to escort, and does so every night" model just doesn't appeal to me.
To give you an idea of why I wax so poetic on 1996-2007 MBOT, imagine girls easily of the caliber of SF Gold Club, except all offered some level of extras, even if not all the way to FS
What does HASE mean?
discussion comment
5 years ago
blah: good comments, I don't have any insight into how the clubs worked in CA vs other places as far as fees for the girls. You are definitely right about the oppressive regime of fees for every little thing but at least in SF -- which is the only city I have real insight into here -- that was brought to a science with the Deja Vu takeover of 90% of the clubs here. It is definitely true that DejaVu has, or had at one time, dancer fees as part of their business plan.
The house cuts definitely got bigger as the business grew in SF. There was a time when the clubs were all packed, where if I recall correctly MBOT charged the girls $200ish for dayshifts, over $300 for nightshifts. But those girls were doing over $1k and sometimes $1.5k+ respectively, so still bringing home a lot (during this time, the dancer migration was FROM Vegas TO SF to work at MBOT, which gives you an idea of the numbers). So the girls were pretty thrilled and making bank. The lawsuit brought that to a halt; now they're employees with no house fees at a club that's empty much of the time and has been struggling to stay open for years.
Anyway, maybe with all the money being made, the clubs were bound to find ways to take a cut, and then the law was bound to step in and create regulations
discussion comment
5 years ago
TUSCL to TUSCLECAAMIOP (The Ultimate Strip Club List Except California)(And Also Massachusetts Is On Probation)
discussion comment
5 years ago
Muddy: no shit! What areas are particularly good? COI, what else? (that's not a challenge, I really want to know). SF has somehow gotten even worse, but it's been one of the worst big cities for SCs for a while
discussion comment
5 years ago
Fun_Loving_Fella: stop ignoring george's questions
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"Is it coincidence or a rule that you have to be a fucktard if you live in California?"
You can also move here as not-a-fucktard, and you may tend to become more fucktarded with time. ski, you live in MA though, pretty high up as far as fucktarded states also. When I retire, I plan to do it in a free state
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5 years ago
-->"As fewer satistlfied patrons hit those clubs I expect it will drive girls to make more trips to Vegas, Portland, etc. to make bank. Also for the girls who are trapped in this state for whatever reason there will be more incentive for OTC activities "
It's been happening already -- there was an absolute invasion of CA strippers to Vegas. I haven't been partaking in OTC enough to know if there's been a real shift there, but for the girls who do remain, there are a few theoretical reasons they might be more attracted to OTC: 1. they make less per shift, 2. they are allowed far fewer shifts (the clubs don't want them to go above 32 hours, or whatever the limit is where healthcare kicks in), 3. they can't do doubles anymore (time and a half for more than 8 hours in a day, I imagine?). All of this adds up to, less money per hour, and fewer total hours worked. If they want to make that up, they can work a club in a different state, stay and supplement with OTC, stay and work multiple clubs, supplement with escorting/FBSM/sugaring, or leave the biz entirely.
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"From what I’ve gathered, California clubs have been micromanagers for a long time—even before the employee status change. There’s a reason these lawsuits that led to the suits happened disproportionately over there, and not so much in places like (for example) Texas. If I were to guess, it’s because that kind of behavior is the general Cali MO anyways."
blah, from my view -- which is admittedly a customer view -- your causality chain might be backwards. What I mean is, it is the government regulation that has always been micro-managing, particularly in the more liberal cities. This, in turn, leads to the opportunity for stripper lawsuits, the clubs then have to manage more closely, the city or state enacts more laws, the clubs manage more closely, etc. But the laws the clubs have had to deal with in, say, SF, and the statewide laws, are pretty unprecedented, and are what lead to the openings for lawsuits.
As an example, a series of lawsuit crushed MBOT and, since 2007 (when it was forced to move to an employee model, years before everyone else) has been a shell of its former self. In its heydey from '96 to '07-ish, girls were taking home huge $$$. Dayshift girls, during some of those years, were regularly taking home $1k+, nightshift girls far more. That's 2000 dollars, not today dollars. The lawsuit that finally brought MBOT down, was kicked off by a girl who had told any number of girls that the lawsuit was part of her exit strategy. She made hundreds of thousands for a few years, got a modest final payout from the lawsuit (the lawyers made a ton), and basically permanently ruined the club for any future strippers. Since '07, it's been slow and sad.
This pattern -- lawsuit, which leads to repressive changes in management, which leads to the girls and customers getting screwed, etc -- the reason I've been saying for so many years that, despite that fact that I always pick the girls over management, they are always the ones who get fucked in these lawsuits (we customers have the money to have other options). Only the retired girls who join the lawsuit make anything, and in a multi-million-dollar suit, they might make $10k-$20k.
discussion comment
5 years ago
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san_jose_guymoney was invented for handing to women, but buying dances is a chump's game
Yeah, as I've been saying, it's been an unmitigated disaster for customers and strippers. I didn't have any insight into how the clubs themselves were doing, but based on the smaller crowds (at least on local dayshifts) I guessed it wasn't good.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Once you have a boner, will you pick a dancer by whether she'll let you ldk? IF not, why should we mention dancer names at all?
:) :)
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5 years ago
-->"But assuming all of this is true, then what you really want is reviewers to try to thread the needle by writing in enough code to get the point across while maintaining plausible deniability regarding explicit details. The problem with that is twofold. First, not all of us are seamstresses and some folks are bound to be a bit too obvious. Second, you're not the only one who can translate code and it runs the risk of still being too much."
Agree, Rick. I don't actually think this is as delicate an act as threading the needle. "I had an amazing time with Jasmine, she teased me at the table and did three head-spinning lapdances", for example, is not a hard concept. That said, you are absolutely right that people will tend not to do that -- lots of guys will give details that will get the girls in trouble with management, the other girls, or with their regulars. For those guys who are not dingbats, though: you mentioning which girls are great and which are ROBs, is about 100x more useful and actionable intel, then what drinks cost or the shape of the bar.
-->"Idk. I guess I don't need to be so spoon fed and, in fact, I prefer to make my own judgments about individual dancers."
And I like to leverage the insights of guys who have gone before. In the end, I always make my own decisions, but I am absolutely thrilled to know Jade is going to act sweet and then ROB me, or Jasmine has a lots of PLs saying nice things.
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"Shadowcat asked if anyone's ever gone to a club looking for a specific dancer read about on here."
Wall, that's what he asked, yes. But he wants to draw a specific conclusion if people don't go to a club looking for a specific dancer.
-->"I don't. I think it is foolish to go looking for a specific dancer. She might not be there. She might not be what you really like. She may not treat you the same way she did the reviewer.So why mention names at all in a review?"
You see? He's specifically saying "if you don't pick a club based on a dancer review, why mention dancer names at all?" The answer, of course, is that just because people don't choose the club based on a dancer mention, that doesn't mean that once they get to that club, they wouldn't use the dancer mentions to pick who to dance with. What I'm saying is, once you choose a club, it's far more interesting to know who the crowd thinks the ROBs and the pleasers are, than the cover and drink prices or where the bathrooms are.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Tib: ya, generally speaking, I never give strippers up front when they need it either, otherwise they mark you as a sucker and they will start needing it a lot. This was a discretionary exception for me... and she did buy the tires as promised, so it accomplished what I wanted
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"I've never gone to a club to find a girl mentioned in a review. I have however looked for a girl mentioned in a review because I was at that club anyway, having gone for other reasons. "
Yeah, it's clear my friend shadowcat wanted to prove we shouldn't name names, so I almost suspected he worded the question that way on purpose -- I think it's unlikely anyone goes to a club just for a single girl named in a review. If he'd asked it another way, "once you're at the club, is it more useful to know that these 10 girls get awesome reviews, and these 4 girls are ROBs, or is it more useful to know the drink prices and where the bathrooms are?", then he'd have gotten a slightly different answer :)
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5 years ago
-->"This all confuses me."
21st century, you scary!!! lol ... Venmo "publishes" all transactions on a timeline-like feature by default. So we all put in little funny explanations. So you might look and see a transaction "Jayce paid Janice $35 thanks for last night beyoch" or whatever. If you go into your profile you can turn that off and make all your transactions private, which is what all sane people do
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5 years ago
-->"@Subraman. I would never identify any particular dancers coupled with what to expect from them."
I'm with you, man! That's why I took pains to say the same thing every time I posted.
-->"I try to follow the old founder’s guidance when writing a review which was (paraphrased) to write as if you were telling a buddy about what to expect if he were going to a club he had never been to (good or bad)"
Okay, here's where I genuinely differ from you. Or maybe the rest of you guys suck at being buddies. When my buddy -- my close friend, who I know will keep his mouth shut -- goes to a club, I exactly tell him all the very graphic and low life details. My buddies are the ONLY ones who get to hear those. I'm going to have to start teaching some buddy classes around here :) :)
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5 years ago
It's on 4th near Main, as I already stated. You guys don't have google maps out there yet?
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5 years ago
Yeah, if your tastes are well outside the crowd, you might be led astray a bit. But only "might". my experience is, a stripper who provides an amazing dirty extras experience, or fetish experience, or GFE experience (yes, first time I ever saw that term was on a strip club site, not escort!), tends to please anyone looking for that, minus lucky or unlucky YMMV and regular perqs...
And yes, I'm not complaining, I think tuscl is awesome or I wouldn't be here. Just arguing a different perspective
discussion comment
5 years ago
I've given a few gifts. The most expensive, and I've told this story before: I had an ATF who pretty much treated me amazing. If I told you the treatment she gave me, and how little she charged me, given that she was one of the higher earners at the club, I would not blame you for shouting "bullshit". But the fact is, she was pretty amazing to me and I got to know her really well. Anyway, one day in the fall sometime, I walked her out to her car and saw the steel belts on her tires were just peeking through. I mentioned them to her, and she said "yeah, I know, but I can't afford to replace them right now". And that was that; as per usual, she didn't use this as an opportunity to ask me for money or anything. And I got it -- she's a single mother with no help, raising her daughter in the 2nd most expensive area in the country. Next time I walked her out to her car was December, the height of the rainy season, and the belts were sticking through ominously, like "any day" they'd go.. I decided that having a woman I got to know so well, driving around at night in the rain with her daughter in the car, was my business. Yes, she'd probably spent her stripper money on some dumb things, but again, single mom, expensive area. I went in to see her next week and gave her a Visa gift card for $250, specifying she had to use it for her tires. She got new tires that weekend. She showed her appreciation for this in very nice ways, for a long time.
Other than that, the main gift I give strippers is shots, and my presence :)
discussion comment
5 years ago
Yep, I know you and I don't agree on this... I do think knowing lap dance prices and cover charges and everything else about the club is interesting. But given that pretty much every review covers that, it's the review of Bambi that I like. I think the strippers should be the focus of reviews, in the end they are why I'm going, with club info secondary. I am well aware that my view is a minority one here, but I like to keep you guys on your toes
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"@Subraman, we can discuss dancers forever in reviews and discussions to no avail. Great and not great when it comes to dancers is super subjective."
Heaving -- that's all just blue-sky theory. The fact is, while it's true it's subjective, I'm not guessing or making theories, for 10+ years I was part of a site where the reviews were dancer-centric, and we all found it incredibly useful, to the point where pretty much no one felt the need to mention cover charges and dance prices. Not a guess, not a theory, fact. Best if you get a critical mass so you get the typical crowdsourced averaging-out of experiences, but man, it just plain worked. The girls who provide great service and treat their customers well, float to the top
--->" But like others have said don't say anything that would get the girl in trouble with the club, other dancers or the police and you highly complex code of saying she sang you some Billy Joel and Frank Sinatra isn't going to help her avoid trouble."
"others" might have said that in this thread, but first I said that, and I'm the first one in the thread to bring up not just management, but the other girls, and potentially jealous regulars. Everyone can figure out the codes, it's silly. No reason to mention specific acts, in code or not. Again, I'm not guessing or theorizing, an enormous community basically ran on these reviews, and you could go into a club as a newbie and basically have an amazing time. Going into a club knowing these 10 girls keep getting tagged as amazing, and these 4 are ROBs, is about 100x more useful than knowing the cover charge or shape of the bar.