discussion comment
16 years ago
Correction:
Empathy isn't always about emotion in a very strict sense, but unless you are talking about absence of emotion it is about *identifying with* which almost always incorporates emotions. :)
discussion comment
16 years ago
"Empathy is not about emotion."
Empathy isn't always about emotion in a very strict sense, but unless you are talking about absence of emotion it is about *identifying with* which almost incorporates emotions. :) You may identify with a person attempting to win a world record. You may identify with the crook that steals to steal. You may identify with a person who is deeply religious. You may identify with a person who gambles on sports.
discussion comment
16 years ago
For example, let's say a machine could be built that could determine a person's emotional state by scanning his brain. The machine might be able to detect sexual arousal, anger, happiness, amusement, depression, grief, and depending on how the brain represents these emotion and the sophistication of the machine you might have a very good emotions identifier and detector.
However, the machine *wouldn't be capable of identifying with* these emotions. Similarly, a person could be just as good as the machine or even better, but it wouldn't mean the person has empathy. Normally, I would think excellent detection of emotions would go hand in hand with empathy. And, it needn't be sympathy---A person could detect happiness and *identify with* that happiness and become happy for that person; it is the *identification with* that is all important to me.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I don't necessarily see it as sympathy . . . it is attempting to put yourself in their shoes and feel what they feel. It is identifying with them.
I wouldn't see the detection system as empathy at all. Like I said my mother's people could detect the emotion of others, but there was no identification with those emotions. Very positive in the sense that if you need warriors they wouldn't indentify with their victims in the least; yes, they'd be able to identify different emotional states including extreme suffering . . . but, I would have assumed 99% of humans could do that. And, I'm not even talking about sympathy---which, they didn't have that either. They have their special traits and good points, but sympathy not likely and empathy not likely. What I found interesting was how focused they were on attempting to teach their children empathy. Of course, the children were still expected to "get the job" done when necessary----you don't want to be weak. Gambling dancer has that same dislike for weak and perhaps more intensified.
So, Gambling dancer has an extremely developed ability to identify other people's emotions. But, then that doesn't mean much to me . . . it is like the dancers being able to detect that I'm depressed---probably a 99 out of a 100 would do that with ease. Or, if I was angry the same 99 out of a 100 should be able to pick up on that. Yes, I can see a value when dealing with people who hide their emotions, but because of my culture her advanced detection of emotions means very little to nothing to me. Now, her lack of empathy---the ability to identify with others is very interesting in that to me it appeared fairly extreme. My thinking is that is why she was able to offer GFE for so many years as if it was nothing.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Also, when Gambling dancer got angry with me about giving an allegedly pregnant dancer (she was turned out to pregnant, btw) a small amount of assistance, she claimed it was because I was being tricked. But, tricked or not helping a pregnant dancer doesn't sit well by her AT ALL. Now, my spending money buying dances on other dancers doesn't seem to bother her at all and in fact, I think she likes that unless they're on her bad list.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Empathy if it merely means to identify another person's emotions seems fairly empty.
Empathy if it means to identify with another person's emotions seems profound.
Do you see the difference *with* makes? Or, do you think my understanding of empathy is too specific? Yes, empathy can require the reading of subtle clues, but much more important to me as a morality issue is whether a person can *identify with* other people's feelings; not merely *identify* other people's feelings.
discussion comment
16 years ago
"American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This em·pa·thy Audio Help (ěm'pə-thē) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity."
Yes, I can definitely see where you are coming from. And, she does have a very powerful ability to play a pleasing part---but, not out of empathy, imo. I don't see that as "empathy" because there isn't an "indentification with" the person she is interacting with. By "identification with" I'm reading that to mean real feelings and perhaps that is an incorrect reading. I believe it isn't that difficult for most people to see that another person is happy or sad or angry or etc. My mother's people could easily do that. It just had no affect on them; no concern; no compassion; no happiness; no sadness; no etc.
Empathy if it merely means to identify another person's emotions seems fairly empty.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Very interesting thought. :) I don't think that was the case for a few reasons. Looking at her interactions with her family I saw the same lack of empathy. Yes, she could just like anyone else have a messed up family that was just beyond the pail. Also, OTC she acted like a very different person. Yes, that could also be an act, but not so pleasing. Keep the ITC persona and forget about the more real OTC one. :) Her natural speech---around family and friends and me OTC is harsh and grating to my ears and filled with slang and even without the slang she'd be difficult to understand. A compromise for OTC with me was that she'd keep her normal speech, but clean it to the point where I could understand what she was saying. Still very harsh and some slang, but at least communication was possible. Now, the club voice was mellifluous (yes, I knew or at least I believed that was just for whites or public areas of the club so OTC it shouldn't have come as such a shock; it was). Also, her words were articulated and there wasn't any slang or at least black slang.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Gambling dancer's seeming absence of empathy really struck paydirt with me. On my mother's side of the family that was one of the most notable traits: zero empathy. Perhaps due to that there was a tremendous effort to brainwash the children to walk in the other person's shoes. That became a top core value for me. I still remember the disgust I felt when the judge said we weren't allowed to put ourselves in the defendant's shoes. Seemed like the court was 100% evil. :(
Anyway, her lack of empathy made her seem like family and like other people that I'd grown up with. So the comfort level was high. Funny, the lack of empathy is a trait that I dislike and yet on some level comfort was more important.
I wanted them to have empathy---I had heard the endless repetition that it was good. Unfortunately I also saw the benefits of having zero empathy. So, there is a real trade off.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Hi wondergrl5,
I think her motive was probably to help her friend out, but it seems like she should have (strategy? forgetfulness?) mentioned that by the way he is a low budget customer . . . it is like when a friend fixes you up with a blind date and the friend knows you have a phat phobia or even not and YIKES that date is over 300 pounds of BLUBBER!!! Friend needs to die a slow painful death.
My neighbor attempted to fix me up with a wonderful girl, but she had just one small negative: UGLY. Of course, I said NO!!! He tried the sneak approach and proudly says isn't she everything that he said? I said YES. He says so you will take her out on a date! NO!!! The young woman had everything positive intelligence, empathy, humor, education, positive attitude, etc. etc. etc. and I very much liked her. Without the body, I just don't see the point . . . if she just wanted a friend that isn't a problem, but she didn't just need a friend.
BTW, too many people have the wacked notion because I'm unattractive it must be fine that the woman is unattractive. Makes NO sense to me.
discussion comment
16 years ago
"I think I made it clear enough I'm not sure people understand."
I didn't understand. The fact that he "cheated" on his wife, ill or healthy, makes him despicable? The fact that he spouts off about family values could be seen as despicable, but I doubt you're anti-family values.
Lying? His is a lawyer for God's sake . . . Oops, I understand, now. ;)
discussion comment
16 years ago
LOL! :)
discussion comment
16 years ago
Hi wondergrl5,
I don't think so or at least I was determined NOT to be a total victim. :) You give an inch and before you know it the woman will have you in bra and panties; especially, in that I liked seeing the same women again and again and again.
discussion comment
16 years ago
By crappy I mean the prices are CHEAP and the furnishing are usually beaten to a pulp almost immediately. I try to avoid the drug culture in my old age solely due to fear of arrest for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
At Angels, I'm generally seen as a very strange white old man. In my younger days those women that were attracted to me were generally "low" class like me. However, I also had experience living on millionaire's row. :) Predominately, I was from skid row and a skid row type woman would see that. I had offers to fill the loser boyfriend role, but that is a very bad deal, imo. (I wouldn't want anyone touching my woman.) Even coming from skid row, I believed the man should protect and support the woman and was 100% opposed to any notions of equality.
The blacks were just mind blowing---heck, just being near 'em you wouldn't need any drugs to be transported to a different reality. It was very difficult to understand anything that I saw them doing. And, generally I was viewed as being nasty and insane or at least that is the feedback I was getting. Very different people. The white Angels was perfect except the women were in such bad condition e.g. missing teeth, bad skin, poor shape, etc. The black clubs had all these hot women and it was unbelieveable---it seemed like an endless supply of healthy natural beauty. But dang, those clubs were loud with dancing and all type of behaviour that was upsetting to a young white from skid row from where I was from. Only in desperation for an attractive women did I go there.
The drug houses could be white or black. I didn't have much of a preference except that the police were less hyper if I was in a white drug house so that is where I tended to be. Again, there was a very different culture in the drug houses depending on skin color.
Women from the drug culture are fine-----that is what I was growing up with even if it was just too much drinking. However, I've become more chicken in my old age so I really try to avoid being in a situation where drugs are too prevelant----some cops lose all their good sense once drugs are even mentioned.
*IF* I was truly free to choose, then I'd probably be looking for a young woman from the drug culture---black or white. Generally, being a ROB didn't seem too dependant on drug use and there are ROBs and then there are ROBs. There is a game played at the cheap clubs with stop, cut and mix the song so the dancer can overcount---I view that game very differently than a ROB who tries to change prices or "cheats" on service. An ideal which surprisingly I didn't get to enjoy too often was the working woman that enjoyed selling/sharing herself when she was having a good high. That was pure pleasure to gather in her wonderful real feelings. :)
discussion comment
16 years ago
"jab, I hate to tell you but I've have experienced both ends of the spetrum and on some level see positives to both"
Then you should have met the druggies who have NO real interest in money. And, if you met those "special" druggies the next step is to see similar personality traits in the dancers that work at the cheap clubs. Further, it *shouldn't* be that hard to play the role of loser boyfriend. I could easily fit right in there. My friend was a pimp--a nasty violent pimp--- and also I experienced prostitution culture, low end mainly, while growing up. It is just a issue, imo, of knowing the culture. Now, I should say that the prositution culture I knew growing up didn't have blacks. The blacks had a separated and different culture. Still, with the "low" class background being the loser boyfriend shouldn't be difficult at all for black or white women assuming you'd want that.
discussion comment
16 years ago
"so you prefer the crappy places????"
Could be. I just don't know for sure because I can't really afford the expensive places. If I had money, then it is very possible I would still prefer crappy places. Sometimes, you just don't know till the door opens and you get a real opportunity.
discussion comment
16 years ago
"seems like a weird gamble (no pun) for physical affection. Do you like that game? If not why not buy a pro?"
I prefer a sure thing and the game doesn't do diddle for me. I'm the exact opposite of Gambling dancer in that regard. She loves the game and loves competition.
The reason I buy a pro is because the culture here in the U.S. is very wrong for me. For example, until just recently fathers here in Florida were sent to jail repeatedly because they were *unable* or *unwilling* to pay for children that were conceived by their wife cheating with another man. In theory, if a man is *unable* to pay then he can escape jail, but the courts generally play a very dirty game. At one point the courts were proudly yapping the man had to prove he didn't have any money and NO proof was ever good enough because maybe he had a Swiss bank account. Anyway, that is just one example.
If she ain't willing to take $$$, then I've got NO interest in sexual fun with her AT ALL.
discussion comment
16 years ago
"jab I don't think you and I will ever see eye to eye on this but that's ok, I respect a well founded and deeply felt opinion"
Maybe if you spent some time in the slum drug houses. :) At the cheap clubs, I saw an overlap of culture where money has a fairly low value. A value that can even disappear assuming you'd be strange enough to want to take that path.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I WANT to be conned. Unlike the PLs, it isn't a negative in the least, but a testament to her skills and it feels like Heaven. The problem is most dancers that I meet even if capable won't do it and or won't do it over the long term. Usually, it isn't worth the hassle if it turns out the customer is actually just a PL who only thought he wanted a fake GFE. Or, the dancer may be concerned about her own emotional well being. Lots of different points.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Hi wondergrl5,
If I can comfortably meet her financial demands, then it is fine for her to view me as an ATM. :) (Unfortunately, that seems rarely to be the case that I have enough money.) What I look for is the dancer who is willing to provide a wonderful fake GFE e.g. it seems completely real and is emotionally intense plus her having advanced skill just is too GOOD. :)
discussion comment
16 years ago
Sounds like fun. :)
discussion comment
16 years ago
"Those who compare the financial considerations to a movie or dinner date are just kidding themselves."
You must be going to expensive clubs.
discussion comment
16 years ago
"Now I'm worried though, it almost seems that you are beginning to see my point of view."
That is what I was thinking about you! :)
"I will say that I don't think that the dotted line ever disappears but simply becomes a little more obscure."
I guess that is a major difference because I'm not much of a catch money wise. Gambling dancer has real customers and I am as she pointed out a joke when it comes to money. When we first met around 7 years ago she was mainly trying to be rid of me the first day we met! She wasn't interested in $5 dances at least from me and probably not at all.
Also, because I can consider myself a money grubber and yet lose interest quickly when I feel secure it leads me to feel others feel the same way. Also, I see how these dancers react to money over a long period of time and too often it seems like a bottom priority if a priority at all. It is like the dancer who makes her money and then just hangs out the rest of the day shooting the breeze with friends and a few buddy customers.
Where the real mistake, imo, is customers thinking more money is always the answer when that, imo, is a sucker's path (generally) assuming you're looking for real affection.
discussion comment
16 years ago
"Perhaps your friend knew that the hottie was down from dealing with assholes and needed some genuine appreciation or maybe she told her you were really 28 and hung like a mule LOL"
LOL! :) I like very much the positive way of looking at it. My thoughts were what is the potential scam and it was nothing but all positives on this visit. Next, well, I'll see . . .
discussion comment
16 years ago
Stripclub related I read "Walking with Enemies," by Eric Jerome Dickey. Many young black women, including Gambling dancer, love to read his "romance" thug? type books. It is not to my taste, but I wouldn't minding reading a few more because I like to try and understand where they're coming from. It is wonderful to be able to talk about this book or that book that *they* love.
The other books it is hard to say because I'm not keeping track and if it slows then I'll start skimming or get a different book.