paradox

28 comments

• BobbyI

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  16 years ago

  Well it boils down to confidence along with delusions about who they are. If they don't like us, then it must mean they have preceived something which is legitimately wrong with us. Right? (Wrong...) Also b.c. of their good looks we project other imagined qualities onto them, which if we really thought cooly and rationally we would not. So we actually delude ourselves that they are quality people. (If they were fat female cab drivers who would we even think twice if they thought poorly of us? No our confidence can at least withstand that.) Now, some strippers legitimately are quality people. In my experience those ones instantly recognize you as another legitimate quality person, and you get their acceptance without any kind of a struggle: It just happens. Almost instantly and without effort.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  Better service. I don't mean BJs or FS, which is easily available and you can pretty much act like an asshole if that is your desire. Also, the relatively few women that I find attractive creates a supply demand problem. I've gone to Tootsies where they're over a 100 dancers and sometimes just one 1 or 2 will be attractive to me. Damn straight, I want them to have a good impression considering there aren't many of them and I'm seeking GFE, which most dancers, ime, aren't willing to provide. Also, I'm interested in longer term fun. I'd prefer to see the same hot dancer again and again.
• arbeeguy

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  16 years ago

  It is kinda like pheasant hunting. How many hunters really ENJOY eating that tough meat and picking out the birdshot? The "struggle" you mention is all about the journey, not the destination. Ya keep hopin' some attractive gal will stroke that ole ego and then ya do it all over again with another attractive gal. As Jablake says so well, just because 98 out of 100 strippers aren't worth the struggle, it is still fun to find those two and then give 'em yore bes' shot.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  Girlfriends? Assuming the typical woman was superior to the typical stripper, it just from my vantage point seems like a very bad bad bad deal. Not only are most of the real relationships I see a total mess (excluding low sex drive men and cheating men) (perhaps I just know the wrong couples), but the demands made by the typical hot girlfriend makes the whole comparison seemed warped. OK, let's say you love children and can afford them and furthermore you don't mind the girlfriend losing her figure and being out of service. Humming a long with a nice family and the world is looking good. Is it? Not when you get dragged into court for whatever reason and have your children taken from you (assuming you care about your children) and worse you get to pay thru the nose for the privilege. Have a financial hardship? Well, don't be surprised if the court jails your ass. Yes, yes, the law supposedly protects the father from that, but I don't have any faith in the law and those fathers behind bars might of even had the rose colored glasses removed. All in all, I think strippers are a fantastic bargain. And, NO, I certainly don't find "typical" women superior. And, for those men who believe they are superior then it seems like pursuing them might be a much better deal than "wasting" money on the "lowly" stripper.
• Dudester

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  16 years ago

  In Europe, it's actually common for a man of some means to have a wife, and a mistress. One is to be the stable "raise the kids" type. The other is a tigress in the bedroom, not afraid to do things the wife would never do. So, What Gives? Simply that American women want the dream-the illusion. Wives complain that men want their wife to be proper in public, but a total slut in the bedroom, and wife types can't reconcile the two. Truth is, men require fantasy, same as they need food and oxygen. It's what makes us, us.
• Polarman

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  16 years ago

  Most strippers have some issues. I do not believe they are doing what they do to find true love unless it is as "goldigger" relationship. You know what I mean, like the old phrase "why is the great looking girl with that guy, well he must either have a BIG bulge in the front or back of his pants." The girl is looking for money only, that what stripping is all about. For us guys, we know we can get them with money, but do they really like you for you. That is the question a lot of guys are looking to answer. It is easy to find out, just go into a strip club with no money and see how popular you are.
• parodyman-->

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  16 years ago

  Polarman! Fuckin' A
• DickJohnson

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  16 years ago

  There have been many great points raised here. My question comes from experience. I have known a few men, myself included, who have/had a great woman in their life just to run off to the SC looking for attention in some way from a stripper. Very perplexing and self-destructive. I also agree with BobbyL, sometimes a person may delude themselves into believing a dancer/sex-worker is wonderful, moreso that is true. Not that they can't be in some ways, but usually we are lying to ourselves.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  "It is easy to find out, just go into a strip club with no money and see how popular you are." Not so easy. First, you need to show up regularly (4 times a week at least, imho) without $$$ and the club needs to be one where you can talk with the dancers. Spend hours and hours in the club like you are a fixture sipping on a single beer or water. Maximum tip per dancer is $1 per night; inflation adjusted $2 per night maybe. Second, and equally important do NOT dress up, display wealth, yap about a good job, or making $$$; you are dead broke and have zero prospects for a better life. You'll probably be fairly popular in time. :) Of course, I had another huge advantage in that I experienced extreme poverty (and wealth) while growing up. Nothing like some extreme poverty in a land of wealth to get your morals straightened out. Especially when you see first hand that many "moralists" with wealth are slimy sacks of shit that have no business looking down on anyone. You might complain why do I have to hide my success? Because whether one wishes to believe it or not there is a huge difference between a poor man being el cheapo and a rich man being el cheapo. Yes, most wealthy friends don't want to hear that.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  Too often I hear wealthy men complaining that the woman wants him only for his wealth. That the woman should love him with zero financial assistance. Easy solution: date women that have money! Yes, she may still expect $$$, but then pull out the equality crap and point out the she is already financially well off. Another solution: Don't flash the money or even hint at wealth. You're broke and have always been broke and will always be broke. You don't want money; money is evil; etc.; etc.; etc. Having money and NOT sharing it with a woman you supposedly love/care about a great deal will generally just generate loathing and disgust. And, it won't even prove whether the woman loved you for you. She might have loved you until you showed how selfish and cruel you really are. Or, she might recognize your game and think long-term swindle.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  Oh, this is important. When a woman wants to come over for a visit the place needs to be a total dump. No food in frig except maybe a couple of warm beers (frig is moldy and hasn't worked for years). Only a few lights in the house work. The bed should have a few spings popping out. Televisions? 4 or 5, but none work. I guess visit some real poor people if you are having difficulty deciding how bad things should be. The car (if you have one) needs to be a junker with bad tires. Now, the real problem is that the woman may actually like you for "you." Wonderful! :( Now, what the F is the plan? Move in with her? Dump her? It should be looking might bleak about now unless you are one of those men who wants a real girlfriend.
• Clubber

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  16 years ago

  As stated before, I don't give a damn what dancers think, but I certainly don't go out of my way to piss them off.
• DickJohnson

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  16 years ago

  Heres a great idea to see if a woman likes you for you. Before she comes to your place pinch a big loaf in the toilet and dont flush it and make sure she sees it, then see if she stays or goes. Great test, highly reccommended.
• Book Guy

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  16 years ago

  I have never heard the term "pinch a big loaf" before. I think I figured it out -- though I'm not delighted and am considering poking out my mind's eye -- but I just thought I'd mention that it's novel to me.
• njscfan

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  16 years ago

  I think the OP is an insightful one. I think a number of things are going on here. I think a lot of men (not all) have a strong desire/need to sleep around. So even if they are in good, stable relationships, they will still want sexual variety with other women. I know I fall into that category. It may not be rational (and it may not be "nice") but it is the way a lot of men are built, and I don't think anything will ever change that. Prostitution has been around for a long, long time, which tells me the demand has always been there. I also think -- apart from the desire for variety -- men in relationships get things from sex workers they don't always get fromt their wives/girlfriends. Sometimes it's very basic. If a woman won't blow her husband, then he may seek blowjobs elsewhere; same for guys who want kinkier sex. Sometimes it's more subtle. Personally I love it when a stripper/escort does little things like helping me get undressed or dressed; giving me a massage before or after the sex, etc. That level of attentiveness and even worshipfulness is pretty difficult to expect on a daily basis from someone you've been married to for years. But it's not at all unreasonable to expect someone you've hired for the occasion to treat you like a king. I also think guys like the hunt. Once you've already bagged a girlfriend or wife, there's nothing left to hunt. Again just from a personal perspective, I like the idea that I may wake up today, and before the end of the day will find a girl somehwere to fuck, even though I've never met her before in my life. That's part of the reason I like fucking girls ITC, even though it is generally more expensive. I like walking into a place and finding someone completely new. It's a hunter instinct and we all have it. Notice arbeeguy's specific analogy to hunting -- exactly right. We enjoy the process of getting to fuck the stripper just as much as fucking the stripper. Sadly, in my view, some guys are also using the strippers/hookers as substitutes for civilian relationships. These guys are not cheating on their wives or girlfriends. They have no wives or girlfriends to cheat on. It is very common to see guys in strip clubs who are lonely old men or pathetic geek losers. Those are the guys who are always (even if in the back of their subconscious minds) going to be harboring the delusion that they will find "love" in the club. They are the ones who will get horribly taken advantage of by the girls, and will engage in any kind of desperate behavior to win some token of their approval. I have had strippers I've fucked who've confessed to keeping 2 or 3 "boyfriends" on a string who shower the strippers with money and gifts, while she sells her pussy to her customers. Pretty heartless. Last but not least, overlapping all of this is the need for fantasy as part of the equation, no matter why you go to a club. That's why the strippers dress up; that's why they have the music and the dim lights; that's why they have the fake names and the fake boobs. Everyone buys into the fantasy and suspends disbelief, just like when you go to the movies. It's part of the entertainment, part of the draw, part of what keeps us coming back.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  I attempt to use strippers as pseudogirlfriends, but most aren't "immoral" enough to provide the needed service. I feel sorry for those guys with wives or girlfriends; especially wives. Here I've been pushed to get a wife or girlfriend from male friends whose relationships with their wives is the pits. (Female friends in bad relationships push the same idiocy, btw.) When the obvious is pointed out to the male buddies their response is YES, but I get more sex. I don't dispute that, but the relationships are still the pits. One will soon be getting a divorce and will learn what paying truly means. The lawyers and judges are free to steal to their hearts content under the law. Strippers only care about money? Please. In comparison to the courts the typical stripper is not only honest, but has very little interest in money. Apparently, my buddies either wish to see others getting screwed in real relationships; misery loves company: or, the extra "free" sex is worth all the misery. The one who will soon be getting divorced is the one bragging about "free" sex. And, his much younger wife wouldn't be attractive even if she wasn't a blubber blob. Oh, and he not going to allow the courts to steal from him. :) America is too good a country for that and he serve his country proudly in the military. LOL! :) BTW, I don't about about other men or women, but I dislike sharing my living space. Maybe, I've just lived alone too long.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  BTW, I don't know about other men or women, but I dislike sharing my living space. Maybe, I've just lived alone too long.
• njscfan

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  16 years ago

  jablake You've obviously had a bad experience with the family court system, as you've indicated in several posts. As someone who has been through a divorce, I can empathize. But I don't think that means all marriages are bad or miserable or bound to end in divorce. Many do end in divorce, but not all. There are happy marriages out there. Marriage is not for everyone (and it's obviously not for you), but for some people it is the correct choice.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  I was giving an analogy to this one friend about how people are swimming in the ocean and getting their arms and legs ripped off---wailing in agony. I'm standing on the deck and the victims are motioning me to jump into the bloody waters! The friend who knows all about having wealth stolen by the courts and miserable marriages replied so what if you get an arm or leg ripped off? Does that mean you're NOT going to jump right back into the water once you've healed? Given his personality there is NO doubt that this friend would eagerly jump back into the bloody waters. Fully unconcerned about losing more body parts----just make sure you're insured. :( His fearlessness when it comes to physical injury and financial destruction is the reason, imo, he is so successful. Broken back? Minor inconvenience. Lose an eye? Appreciate the other one more. Lose your home and all your savings and family? Think of all the fun you had making money and a family the first time.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  Hi njscfan, I'm sure there are happy marriages. And, even people who've suffered divorce many times wish to go back for more. A lady friend has gone through 3 nasty divorces and she is up for more in the hope of finding true love (she is a very nice lady, btw). The one time she lost money (the husband refused to work after marriage because he had his money stolen by the courts in a previous divorce) she was disgusted that the courts would award money to a bum---especially a man, but successfully moved on. He also remarried and appreciated his windfall from the failed marriage (he thought it was simple fairness). He didn't care that the innocent wife paid the second time around, btw. You suffered a divorce and still believe in marriage. That is difficult for me to understand and I tend to think of the person addicted to drugs who quits due to extreme health problems and then once healthy again goes back to the drugs! That may not even be a true reading when it comes to marriage. Gambling dancer knows gambling is super bad for her and yet even after she avoids the misery for a long time seems destined to go back for more punishment forgetting her previous misery. I think those who promote marriage are actually well intentioned. More than a few strippers have told me that I need a girlfriend and not to waste money on strippers. Apparently, they think if you need to purchase a GFE that means you need a girlfriend. I don't believe one necessarily follows the other, but I can easily see their reasoning.
• njscfan

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  16 years ago

  Just so we're clear, I am not urging you to get married. It's the right thing for me, but it is not the right thing for everyone, and it is obviously not the right thing for you. Respectfully, I don't think the fact that I am happy to be married is akin to being a drug addict. I'm sure on reflection you did not really intend for your analogy to come out that way.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  Hi njscfan, No, like I said "that may not even be a true reading when it comes to marriage." I don't understand or perhaps cannot understand how people who went through a miserable marriage go back for more. Even moreso when they see friends and family suffering with horrible marriages. The lady with 3 nasty divorces is surrounded by family and friends who've also suffered with horrible marriages. They keep getting married! It is like they love divorce attorneys or crooked judges. I don't know what the correct analogy is, which is why I stated it may not be a true reading. Maybe it is like going to church or waving the flag? I'm not anti-drug--and consider it a health problem when done to excess. I'm not anti-gambling--and consider it a mental health problem when done to excess. I'm not even anti-marriage if the government isn't involved with the supposed "contract."
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  A very close lady friend has been in divorce court for years and years. She feels like a winner when it comes to divorce court and the surprising thing is that her former husband is a big shot attorney. In her opinion, the former husband screwed up big time and lost his advantage when he started to behave like an attorney before the judge. As an attorney he was use to abusing people with the full support of the court, but in the divorce case he needed to sit down and shut-up and let his attorney be abusive with the full support of the court. You guessed it. She would like to get married again and yet she still isn't out of court after years and years! Yes, I suppose it does make a huge difference that she was a huge financial winner. I'd feel sorry for her former husband, but the crooked court system has made him rich--excluding his current non-stop divorce.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  Another friend hit a "double" i.e. got tied up in not only the governments stupid marriage laws, but the governments stupid drug laws . . . First, he goes thru years of meat grinding in the divorce court. He was ignoring his wife (immersed himself in business) because she was refusing to sleep with him. His wife responds by sleeping with an attorney who convinces her to get a divorce. She gets rich and takes the children and of course he has to pay for that "benefit." So like a good little trooper and proud American, he starts the rebuilding process. He loves working like a dog and his family is gone, which means his life is just work, so in the land of opportunity he is able to start getting some wealth. BOOM! Second spanking, is an arrest on all manner of drug charges. He is one of these clowns who believes if you're not guilty you won't get arrested (he thinks he is the rare 1 in a million exception to the rule). Worse, the government attempted to steal his properties. More court battles and more lawyers getting rich. In a way, he was a "winner" this time because he not only escaped the drug charges, but was able to keep the government from stealing his properties as well. Proving in his mind that the system can work. So what has he learned? He still strongly believes in marriage and wishes he could find a woman that actually wants to marry him and not steal his money. He still strongly believes in the drug laws and that the system can work. Worse still he strongly believes in more government (but, honest government) to solve all problems big and small. :( Seems like "paradox" is the norm.
• Book Guy

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  16 years ago

  People tend to learn the opposite lesson from the one towards which things are pointed. I have a friend who got divorced (not an acrimonious one, really) after she spent a long time "trying to make it work." I want her to learn this lesson: if it's so damned hard to make it work, and it takes so damned much effort, then maybe you need to be finding a partner for whom you have to put in less effort; for whom the relationship with you is more "natural." What does she come out with, after the whole thing is done: I guess I just didn't know how to make it work. But I've learned lessons that will enable me to be better at it next time, and I'll know where to put in the effort and work in order to be more effective and have a better relationship. In other words, the evidence suggests to me: work less. To her: work more.
• jablake

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  16 years ago

  Hi Book Guy, Excellent point! :) It is especially upsetting and frustrating when highly intelligent people do it. My former boss had 2 miserable marriages and lost substantial wealth as an added bonus. He is a huge marriage supporter and would like to get married a third time (he is older than god, btw), but this time she has to have money of her own. He is off the charts intelligent normally, but there is something about marriage that for some reason he thinks it is the greatest. He also has a twisted view of government, imo. He says that I should have learned the government is my friend and is there to help me. I really gave him both barrels for that idiocy---boy, was I fuming and spitting rage. I felt like ripping him into little tiny pieces and feeding it to a dog. :( His point, which I understood, was that I'm powerless against the government so I might as well enjoy it no matter what evil it does. Like the old advice to women to lie back and enjoy.
• FONDL

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  16 years ago

  Book Guy, maybe you are both right. Maybe she needs to choose a different type of guy in the first place. But maybe she also needs to do things a bit differently than she did the first time around - maybe she was putting forth the effort in the wrong places, things that were important to her but not to him, which is often the case.
• Book Guy

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  16 years ago

  Could be in general, FONDL, but in this case, having heard the whole story from both of them, the truth is that HE needs to go into therapy and leave nice girls like her alone, and SHE needs to stop thinking she did ANYTHING wrong except for when she said "yes" when he proposed in the first place.