Can you compare/contrast strip joints from the 1970's to today, 1980's to today. I'm writing an article for another site and I could use your insights.
Table dances were $5.00 and lap dances, at the table were $10.00 Then came the VIP and table dances ended, VIP dances were $10.00. (All of this was in the '80's.) In the 90's the clubs got greedy and started to charge for everything--mandatory valet parking, coat check, booth, men's room attendant, shot girls and higher prices for dancers' drinks. Mileage was tame in the '80's. Now there are almost standards, just the whim of the dancer. Because of the U.S. Sumprene Court nude clubs cannot serve alcohol. Strange industry.
"Because of the U.S. Sumprene Court nude clubs cannot serve alcohol. "
I don't think this is true. I think it is a state's decision. At least I know that in North Las Vegas at the World Famous Palamino you can see full nude with booze.
"Because of the U.S. Sumprene Court nude clubs cannot serve alcohol. "
This statement is overly broad. The Supreme Court has held that, as part of the reasonable restriction of exotic dancing, a unit of government with jurisdiction over strip clubs MAY ban the sale of alcohol in establishments that offer nude dances. FOUNDER is right. There are many places in the country where one can find nude dancing and alcohol in the same space.
Well, it used to be you had little cheap clubs very close to one another and it was really no big deal. Most things weren't seen as governments' business. Also, different clubs had very different personalities despite there propinquity. For example, Cherry's catered to the wild motorcyle crowd. Angels catered to poor rednecks. Candycanes was more for tourists. Segregation was still in effect into the 90's. You had loud clubs and quiet clubs. Brightly lit clubs and clubs where the lights were practically out. Now, there are much fewer choices and leo is a problem and even when the price has stayed the same it has gone up----the money isn't appreciated as much because it just isn't worth as much. You have the gentlemens clubs and if you're low income the black clubs. Even with the greater prosperity it seems like the people are under much greater stress. The drug money seems to have created a more volatile scene. Formerly poor men can be handing out $20s like nothing. But, that is a roller coaster (arrests do happen) for the dancers and everyone else. I liked the clubs of the old days much better.
I remember going to a couple clubs in Raleigh NC when I was going to grad school at UNC in 1980. One was called The Office and I forget the other. $3.00 cover, no lap dances or VIP available, just bassically a bunch of guys sitting around the stage watching dancers get topless. In one place you could approach the stage with a dollar in your hand and the dancer would lay a deep french kiss on you (but you had to keep you hands at your side, no touching the dancers). The bouncers were biker types who often were heavy handed if customers got out of line.
True, the Supreme Court did not ban liquor in nude clubs, but left it to state regulation. Same thing with the zoning and "secondary effects." I used shorthand to avoid a long discussion of this.
For my contribution I will use Club Fantasies in Rhode Island as an example. In the late 80's through mid 90's there was topless only. Tipping at stage with minimal contact and in the sitting area there were $1 "cabarets" which allowed some harmless contact. Still a great deal compared to Massachusetts where if you tipped a dollar at the stage and brushed the dancer's leg, you might get booted. Then came the nude part of the club and a private dance area, followed by a move to larger quarters with a champagne room etc. Strip clubs were mostly visual with the Rhode Island "cabarets" being a great value and decent contcat. Late 90's and early 2000's saw a price explosion ($30.00) for laps and an increase in contact to slightly more than the cabarets. Nowadays? Got called a "fag" the other day by a dancer in a private dance on 2- 1 day ($20 for 2) for turning down a hand job. The contact level is insane nowadays.
80's: Practically all "no touchee" kinds of clubs, except maybe Houston & a few others with "Texas style couch dances". Private shows , or table dances (ala MJ Peter clubs 87-88 on) were done on mini stage or portable platform and strictly air.
IMO,things didn't start loosening up significantly until the mid 90's , coincidentally with release of the movie "Showgirls". More places had at least solid 1 way contact, but as of 1997, there were STILL some clubs in So.FL that had those portable platform airshows.
Today, I'd say there's a higher % of more upscale clubs, vs neighborhood dives in the 80's. Contact levels are higher, as are prices. Specific club examples that I experienced in both 80's & today to follow in future post...
I actually don't think clubs have changed all that much and in fact there are still a lot of older clubs around that have changed very little if at all (like Mons Venus and Odyssey 2000 in Tampa - I visited both in the early 1970's and from the reviews it doesn't sound like either one has changed at all.) In fact the most remarkable thing to me is how little the industry has changed.
Having said that, I can think of maybe 5 changes in the last 40 years or so that I have noticed: (1) lap dances have become a lot more common and higher mileage (that's probably the biggest change); (2) full nudity has become more common and more in your face; (3) High-end clubs have become less sleazy, more fancy, and more expensive, although there are still a lot of really sleazy places; (4) there a lot more clubs, especially outside of downtown areas in major cities, which is where most of them used to be concentrated; (5) extras are more widely available inside the club (they used to be mostly OTC or in the club parking lot.)
If you want to know what most clubs were like in 1970, visit the Block in Baltimore. At one time nearly every city had a district like that, Baltimore's is the only one left to my knowledge. And it hasn't changed at all, except that extras are probably a little more readily available inside the club now.
I tend to agree with FONDL. I don't think they changed that much. Perhaps more of them and more open with what goes on. Still, there is nothing in a club today that wasn't in the 70's.
So what happened with The Trap wasn't part of a trend in your opinion? The Mons sounds like a total rip joint compared to what it was when I visited many years ago. At that time it was a totally inexpensive dive with super hot babes. The latest reports are $30??? for a dance at a dive?
Of course, I blame the situation on the ever dwindling freedoms thanks to the government restricting new small clubs and attacking existing ones as well as eliminating freedom of association. I lived in the middle of strip club heaven with choices galore. Now basically it seems like expensive gentlemens clubs, which have absolutely NO value to me. Oh perhaps, an expensive dive like the Mons has supposedly evolved into, or The Trap? That has even less value than a GC. The black clubs would be total heaven except that it seems like they're all anti-conversation, which is the way I've always remembered it and why I hung out a cheap all white clubs primarily. Are there any cheap white clubs left in South Florida? Black is fine, but for the anti-conversation bias----otherwise, I never would have gone predominately to cheap white clubs. Cheap white meant you could relax and shoot the breeze, while at a local black clubs it was rare to get that consistently if at all and the dancing was just too hyper for my tastes. Angels once it became black was the huge exception for a long time because they were working hard at keeping as many white customers as possible while offering only black dancers. Once I saw the the number of wealthy black customers increase substantially, then it seemed to be more of just another noise house without the wonderful conversation.
Bottom line, imo, is the costs have increased substantially in many ways and the quality has fallen substantially in many ways. Diversity? Seems very dead compared to the old days.
I was only in a few clubs briefly in the early 1980's, so I cannot compare A to B. However, its my understanding (as summarzied in wikipedia) that certain Canadian Sup Ct decisions in the 1990's were crucial to certain critical changes that occured in many jurisdictions in the United States, whether by case law, statute, or local ordiances. Its amazing today what's going on in strip clubs, if you know what states to go to.
(from wikipedia, lap dancing)
"In 1994 – in a ruling which was to have an impact throughout the English speaking world – a Canadian court (Judge Hachborn of the Ontario Court, Provincial Division, in the case of Pat Mara and Allan East, the owner and manager of Cheaters Tavern) ruled that lapdancing did not contravene laws on public decency and defined what lap dancing should mean. This was a huge victory for the sex trade. A number of conflicting judgements were passed in the years that followed, including decisions to close certain bars in which sex acts took place on the floor of the club and other rulings in which patrons were allowed to touch the dancers as long as an actual sex act didn’t take place. Finally, in 1999 the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that lap dancing was legal. This led to the displacement of strip clubs and table dancing clubs in Canada by lap dancing clubs. Lap dancing arrived in Britain, with the American Spearmint Rhino clubs, in 1995."
My last visit to The Trap was a sort of surprising in that it was very crowded. Dancers were ugly as hell, imo. Seemed like mainly the giants from Angels. Very nice women, but I just don't want to see them naked or get sevices from them. Dance price is holding firm at $25 per lap dance and if I was offered 25 cent or even penny lap dances the answer would be a firm NO! I don't like blubber jumping on me or getting unclothed. Yes, I do feel bad about saying that because as people I like those giant dancers from Angels; very sweet and real.
I didn't see anyone buying dances, but who knows at another hour they might be selling dances.
The noise was horrible. Next they'll be getting a DJ to make even more noise. Free market? What a sick joke. A free market means being allowed to open competing clubs without a lot of BS and threats and government mandated costs.
I think the Mons and The Trap both show the customer is getting a hell of a lot less. With the Mons if money is garbage to you or you don't like to go every few days, then the greatly reduced value isn't as obvious. With The Trap, well yes there is a huge demand for fat girls, but at $25 per lap? Too bad I can't have a club like the old days----very quiet and relaxing with cheap prices and all the contact and nudity you so desire. At least the $5 loud black clubs are hanging on for the moment----for the moment, and that has nothing to do with the "free" market.
I misunderstood your point. I was thinking about all the small clubs that were shut down by government knows best types. Especially, the weird little stripclubs that effectively aren't allowed anymore.
I think the biggest "long term" trend is, toward the reduction (in the general populace) of tolerance for "safe" prostitution, and therefore an increase in strip clubs that become more and more "service" oriented. The lap dance arrives; many clubs offer private VIP rooms; strippers take customers out for service; and so on. From 1970 to 2008, I'd have to say that the strip club has become the "only" remaining reliable sex-industry institution in North America, and therefore now it has to fulfill a wide range and variety of roles, many of which can even be contradictory, and therefore there are a number of styles and types of clubs and a number of different jurisdictions and restrictions on them. Previous to the time frame in question, strip clubs were for burlesque bordello-style SHOWS, only, often with live music; and other places were for other things: brothels for fucking, asian massage parlors for rub-and-tug, Vegas cabaret's for topless show-girl kick-lines, and call girls for ... well ... also fucking. We've really eliminated the "wrong side of the tracks brothel" which so many cities -- especially the ones near military bases -- used to have, and now all strip clubbing is both (A) cleaned up and (B) required to somehow access a dirtier side of things, all at the same time.
18 comments
I don't think this is true. I think it is a state's decision. At least I know that in North Las Vegas at the World Famous Palamino you can see full nude with booze.
This statement is overly broad. The Supreme Court has held that, as part of the reasonable restriction of exotic dancing, a unit of government with jurisdiction over strip clubs MAY ban the sale of alcohol in establishments that offer nude dances. FOUNDER is right. There are many places in the country where one can find nude dancing and alcohol in the same space.
80's: Practically all "no touchee" kinds of clubs, except maybe Houston & a few others with "Texas style couch dances". Private shows , or table dances (ala MJ Peter clubs 87-88 on) were done on mini stage or portable platform and strictly air.
IMO,things didn't start loosening up significantly until the mid 90's , coincidentally with release of the movie "Showgirls". More places had at least solid 1 way contact, but as of 1997, there were STILL some clubs in So.FL that had those portable platform airshows.
Today, I'd say there's a higher % of more upscale clubs, vs neighborhood dives in the 80's. Contact levels are higher, as are prices. Specific club examples that I experienced in both 80's & today to follow in future post...
Having said that, I can think of maybe 5 changes in the last 40 years or so that I have noticed: (1) lap dances have become a lot more common and higher mileage (that's probably the biggest change); (2) full nudity has become more common and more in your face; (3) High-end clubs have become less sleazy, more fancy, and more expensive, although there are still a lot of really sleazy places; (4) there a lot more clubs, especially outside of downtown areas in major cities, which is where most of them used to be concentrated; (5) extras are more widely available inside the club (they used to be mostly OTC or in the club parking lot.)
If you want to know what most clubs were like in 1970, visit the Block in Baltimore. At one time nearly every city had a district like that, Baltimore's is the only one left to my knowledge. And it hasn't changed at all, except that extras are probably a little more readily available inside the club now.
So what happened with The Trap wasn't part of a trend in your opinion? The Mons sounds like a total rip joint compared to what it was when I visited many years ago. At that time it was a totally inexpensive dive with super hot babes. The latest reports are $30??? for a dance at a dive?
Of course, I blame the situation on the ever dwindling freedoms thanks to the government restricting new small clubs and attacking existing ones as well as eliminating freedom of association. I lived in the middle of strip club heaven with choices galore. Now basically it seems like expensive gentlemens clubs, which have absolutely NO value to me. Oh perhaps, an expensive dive like the Mons has supposedly evolved into, or The Trap? That has even less value than a GC. The black clubs would be total heaven except that it seems like they're all anti-conversation, which is the way I've always remembered it and why I hung out a cheap all white clubs primarily. Are there any cheap white clubs left in South Florida? Black is fine, but for the anti-conversation bias----otherwise, I never would have gone predominately to cheap white clubs. Cheap white meant you could relax and shoot the breeze, while at a local black clubs it was rare to get that consistently if at all and the dancing was just too hyper for my tastes. Angels once it became black was the huge exception for a long time because they were working hard at keeping as many white customers as possible while offering only black dancers. Once I saw the the number of wealthy black customers increase substantially, then it seemed to be more of just another noise house without the wonderful conversation.
Bottom line, imo, is the costs have increased substantially in many ways and the quality has fallen substantially in many ways. Diversity? Seems very dead compared to the old days.
(from wikipedia, lap dancing)
"In 1994 – in a ruling which was to have an impact throughout the English speaking world – a Canadian court (Judge Hachborn of the Ontario Court, Provincial Division, in the case of Pat Mara and Allan East, the owner and manager of Cheaters Tavern) ruled that lapdancing did not contravene laws on public decency and defined what lap dancing should mean. This was a huge victory for the sex trade. A number of conflicting judgements were passed in the years that followed, including decisions to close certain bars in which sex acts took place on the floor of the club and other rulings in which patrons were allowed to touch the dancers as long as an actual sex act didn’t take place. Finally, in 1999 the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that lap dancing was legal. This led to the displacement of strip clubs and table dancing clubs in Canada by lap dancing clubs. Lap dancing arrived in Britain, with the American Spearmint Rhino clubs, in 1995."
My last visit to The Trap was a sort of surprising in that it was very crowded. Dancers were ugly as hell, imo. Seemed like mainly the giants from Angels. Very nice women, but I just don't want to see them naked or get sevices from them. Dance price is holding firm at $25 per lap dance and if I was offered 25 cent or even penny lap dances the answer would be a firm NO! I don't like blubber jumping on me or getting unclothed. Yes, I do feel bad about saying that because as people I like those giant dancers from Angels; very sweet and real.
I didn't see anyone buying dances, but who knows at another hour they might be selling dances.
The noise was horrible. Next they'll be getting a DJ to make even more noise. Free market? What a sick joke. A free market means being allowed to open competing clubs without a lot of BS and threats and government mandated costs.
I think the Mons and The Trap both show the customer is getting a hell of a lot less. With the Mons if money is garbage to you or you don't like to go every few days, then the greatly reduced value isn't as obvious. With The Trap, well yes there is a huge demand for fat girls, but at $25 per lap? Too bad I can't have a club like the old days----very quiet and relaxing with cheap prices and all the contact and nudity you so desire. At least the $5 loud black clubs are hanging on for the moment----for the moment, and that has nothing to do with the "free" market.
I just said what was and is available really hasn't changed. Quality, cost, ease, etc., has, of course, changed.
Hi clubber,
I misunderstood your point. I was thinking about all the small clubs that were shut down by government knows best types. Especially, the weird little stripclubs that effectively aren't allowed anymore.