Most recent one was 12 year old Jocelyn Nungaray slaughtered in Houston by two Venezuelan gang bangers. Lakin Riley, Rachel Morin. And the American taxpayer gets to pay for all of it. And if you have any problem with any of that deal whatsoever, you’re a racist. Can’t wait to see the gaslighting on this one.
Anybody else had enough of this fucking bullshit?
Anyone who votes Democratic party has blood on their hands. Not to mention the 6 Isis members they just caught. Thanks Joe Biden. thanks progressives cum stains. They are "fleeing violence"? Yeah, the fucking gang members always flee violence.
Why would anyone from Venezuela want to come to the US. I thought it was supposed to be the ideal Socialist/Marxist utopian state CJ Kent has wet dreams about
White Americans commit crimes too lol when yall gonna get over the race shit. 3 anecdotal examples and we need to get rid of all immigration lol this is just sad. Zero critical thinking skills.
^^ Tell that to the parents of that dead girl, or the 13 year old in Queens was tied up and raped. Go tell the parents that their little girl is an "anecdotal example." You're a fucking asshole.
I wonder what (or who) mister orange is in reference to lol. My heart goes out to the families of every innocent person who is murdered. Jocelyn Nungaray, the Israeli people killed on October 7, the tens of thousands of Palestinians killed since, I truly mourn them all. I don't let politics dictate who I feel sorry for, and I don't let fear mongering dictate how I feel about entire groups of people.
These things happened when Trump was President too. People don't remember them because right wing media like Fox News barely ran these stories then, but now they run these isolated stories over and over. Nobodygtyu is correct.
“White Americans commit crimes too lol when yall gonna get over the race shit.”
Talk about lack of critical, thinking skills! The point is, these are three additional crimes (and there are many more) that should never have happened if Biden had done his job and not allowed them to just walk illegally into the country. Who said this has anything to do with race? Since when has being against allowing murderous, raping gangbangers, free entry into the country been racist?
Yeah, we have enough crime here already. No need to import more.
^^ Well said doc
What type of useless dumbfuck thinks we don't have enough native-born violent scum, so we need to import others because they ain't white. There is no larger group of ignorant, racist bigots than progressives. The only people more useless and far stupider are those who mention Fox news. Now the traitorous foreign garbage known as the democratic base wants the Palestinian terrorists to come live here and kill us.
Yes, Americans commit crimes, too. White Americans, yellow Americans, red Americans, brown Americans, but mostly black Americans. Facts, not racism.
The big difference here is that Joe Biden and the democrat party invited them, welcomed them, and is giving them all of our tax money in exchange for nothing. The last Republican administration went to extraordinary lengths and was largely successful in minimizing illegal immigration.
I can not understand how liberals will support the party line just because Rachel Maddow tells them to.
Even the non violent ones are still law breaking parasites. They get better health care and live in a nicer house than I. Sure would be great if these dirty, diseased, deadly pieces of shit were rounded up and executed. The 200 million illegals in the country, blacks, and white traitors have ensured that democrats will win almost every meaningful election from now on. The country is doomed and there will be no difference between USA and any other third world country before long.
Systemic racism - get an education, work hard, save money, don't commit crimes. Yeah, the system sucks roflmao.
The claim in the OP is, by implication and direct statement, the following, roughly paraphrased -- that people who cross into the USA illegally from Latin American countries are committing violent crimes at a high rate, and are perhaps crossing solely with that goal in mind. They deliberately upend their lives, risk loss of all their possessions and wealth and perhaps their lives, in order to change their home from a violent and dangerous place to a safer, more prosperous country where they will be more free to pursue a decent living than at their first home. They do this precisely in order to make their new location as miserable as the old location was. They don't want to escape poverty and violence, but rater, they want to export it, because they like wallowing in it.
The contrary claim is that people whose immigration status in the USA is illegal are less likely to commit crimes, certainly not violent crimes, because they know they can be detected more easily and will not only serve punishment equivalent to any USA citizen's punishment, but also will be deported, thus losing any advantage of coming to the USA in the first place. They are LESS likely to commit crimes.
You pick which narrative you prefer. One of them is supported by facts and statistics, the other by people who gain benefit from telling false stories.
@book guy I would love to hear what hard data you have on illegal crime rates of our new arrivals. But you don't. Many of these sanctuary cities/states have stop reported their immigration status and even demographic data overall. (They weren't liking the outcomes in prior years it really blew their bs narratives that were coming out of these places)
There's so much we just don't know about these newly arrived folks. Only rough estimates now that's over 12 million, ~the state of Pennsylvania, our 5th largest state. And coming from violent countries and countries that fucking hate America. We have to just believe our eyes sometimes. Don't worry when illegals flood your neighborhood we'll get you to see the light real quick, it ALWAYS works like that.
I would just respect this administration a little bit more if they were straight with American people and the families of those girls. Just say what your doing "Look the current group of Americans isn't down with all this commie bullshit we're trying to push through, so we have to bring in new folks who would be down with it. Your family members (your family not ours of course, never ever us, only you) getting killed is just collateral damage because our stupid ass ideology and our votes to stay in power, trumps all. Deal with it and go fuck yourselves."
At that point at the very least they would be honest.
Agreed: stats are hard to come by.
Agreed: the border is broken. In particular, the new migrant/illegal pattern is to abuse the asylum system, making claims for which that system is not set up. (BTW this is happening globally.) If only Congress could have come up with a bi-partisan agreement. Oh wait they did. Then Trump told his lap-puppies to nix THEIR OWN LEGISLATION and they sucked his cock instead of acting for the betterment of the country.
Cato Institute, conservative think tank, study generally says illegals commit less crime: "In 2018, the illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 782 per 100,000 illegal immigrants, 535 per 100,000 legal immigrants, and 1,422 per 100,000 native‐born Americans. The illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 45 percent below that of native‐born Americans in Texas. The general pattern of native‐born Americans having the highest criminal conviction rates followed by illegal immigrants and then with legal immigrants having the lowest holds for all of other specific types of crimes such as violent crimes, property crimes, homicide, and sex crimes." cato.org
Cato=not conservative, libertarian. There's a difference. They are those weird liberations are down with open borders.
And think about what your saying. Use common sense for a second. In the last few years the demographics of those immigrants are wildly different than just a few years ago. Mexican immigration is now been negative the last few years (a lot of people don't know that. And why many mexican americans are going blue to red) Right now you have people coming from wildly different cultures with wildly different genetics/racial groups. You gonna just group that all together? Yeah no.
Behold the power of right wing media programming. If Fox News and NY Post had only run 10 stories on this topic instead of 10,000 we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
You know there's a reason Trump ran as a Republican, right ?
Muddy, I thought you were the one grouping "that all together" with the TITLE OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD.
Well, I can agree with you that the border is broken and needs fixing (if the Republicans in Congress would stop sucking Trump's dick we might actually pass some bipartisan legislation on the subject!).
I can't agree that there's a large amount of crime committed by people who entered the country illegally, or on false premises. The numbers and facts say otherwise. The right-wing media hosts who need to blame someone, in order to whoop up fervor and maximize ratings, have chosen illegal immigrants as their scapegoats. Nazis had their Jews, Fox has their illegal immigrants. Neither vilified group was committing anything like the wrongs which the propagandists claimed they were committing.
But the border is a mess. One big problem is that we have resources to process VERY few asylum claims, but EVERY person who gets there is making that claim. We should all dislike the current abuse of the asylum process, since asylum and refugee status are systems designed not for economic migrants, but for escape from specific types of oppression, generally ethnic and political. To claim that you deserve "asylum" in the USA right when you get to the border means, just abstractly speaking, that you would get automatic entry into the USA on the presumption that you'd otherwise be killed or abused if you weren't admitted, because of your membership in a targeted group back home (wrong ethnicity, religion, political party, etc.). But currently, most of the people claiming "asylum" and seeking refugee status, by using that terminology and system they are instead escaping economic and social hardship which is not directly targeted at them individually or at their group. F.e. the claim that it just "sucks to be in Honduras" so I want "asylum in the USA to allow escape from Honduras generally" shouldn't be treated as a valid refugee / asylum claim. (As a bleeding heart, I'd probably want to let them in on OTHER grounds anyway, but that's a different issue.) You'd need to claim, more specifically, f.e., "I will be killed / tortured / denied a family etc. if I have to go back to China because I am a Uighur, thus I am a member of a group which that country oppresses."
If you need to vilify one group in a negative categorization, then your limited thinking is both (a) over-simplifying the issue, and (b) assuming the simplification is valid (it isn't, but assuming) targeting the wrong culprits anyway. For (a), it isn't ONE GROUP that's doing it all, and that group can't be identified as simply "they crossed the border illegally." For (b) even if it were one specific group, you got the wrong group. It's violent criminals who commit violent crimes.
To solve that, I'd suggest taking on native-born USA citizen White male Protestant Christians aged 15 to 35. Without them, we wouldn't have 99% of our mass shootings and we'd return to having safe streets on par with developed democracies in Europe and the rest of the Global North, rather than being a statistically extreme outlier on unnecessarily violent gun usage.
(PS puddy-tat I agree on the need to change to a merit-based system, generally speaking)
“Behold the power of right wing media programming.”
—
I fall down laughing when anyone even suggests the power of right wing media. On the left you have MSNBC, the Huffington Post, CNN, Mother Jones, The NY Times, NBC, the Washington Post, ABC, CBS, NPR
On the right you have FOX, and ……..
What’s also funny is the ADL has defined “13/52” as hate speech.
I believe the majority of illegal aliens now are of Indian and Chinese ancestry, according to the latest statistics more Mexicans are returning to Mexico, and more Venezuelans, are settling in Mexico than the U. S. Truth is our politicians, have less than no credibility when it comes to discussing the issue of immigration, they use it primarily as a tool to drive votes.
The politicians are the real criminals every last one of them, they get paid well for doing nothing.
Hard to believe there was a time when members of Congress had regular jobs and traveled to DC just to cast votes on behalf of their constituents.
^ makes you wonder how they became prince’s of the realm
"I fall down laughing... "
The argument has little to do with the number of media outlets on either side. It's about viewership susceptibility to buy into narratives that are focused on a small set of facts, repeated many times, without applying critical thinking to see the full picture.
@wld4tatas here's the picture. Some little gets gang raped, strangled and thrown into a creek by two cocksockers who don't belong this country. And liberals will still you not to believe your lying eyes. They are going to get us ALL fucked up. Do not let these motherfuckers drive the bus...EVER. You will get Oakland, California. They do not know what the fuck they are doing and they fuck up EVERYTHING they touch. Hey let's just bring 50 billion jihadi fuckheads into the country, what could possibly go wrong? How's it working out for England?
I’ve asked my liberal friends (yeah I have some ) over and over again.
“If it so in vogue to ‘Hate America’ then why are so many wanting to come here?” And I never get an answer.
Go on social media and read threads about America written by Brits and continental Europeans and even some Canadians how they despise the US. Only 30% of Mexicans view the US as favorable. But it doesn’t stop them from coming.
I wish 75 years ago Americans knew how British and French school kids would come to view the US. They should have let them fall to the Germans.
“If it so in vogue to ‘Hate America’ then why are so many wanting to come here?” And I never get an answer.
Right wing extremists hate America bro. Remember when they stormed the capitol and tried to overthrow our duly elected president?
And this thread is a great example of hating America. America is a melting pot. We're a nation built by immigrants for immigrants. Almost all of us have immigrant ancestors. Our most well known monument is literally a testament to immigration.
Xenophobes who hate immigrants, like you, the OP and others in this thread simply hate America in my view.
Personally, I love America, and I love immigrants and immigration. These two things are inseparable. And in my view, if you don't like immigration, you should leave and go live somewhere like North Korea instead.
Ron Jax, big difference is that European immigrants from 100 years ago weren't given shot. Everything was earned. They were mostly white, which was for the bettermentof the nation. These hispanic parasites are getting everything for free. Those who support this shit like you and wild4 a man's cock are paying for it too! I'd like to see them executed but I'll take rounding them up, put them in barracks and not 5 star hotels, and work them in the fields.
@Ron Hey man if your so high and mighty, why not take some illegals into your house, show us how it's done. How we can be better people too. We'll watch you and learn.
Also I speak for most when I say most of our ancestors came here LEGALLY, came to work, and did not enjoy anywhere near the level of social safety net that illegals today here enjoy, while the American taxpayer is getting hosed.
Hey man if your so high and mighty, why not take some illegals into your house
Who the fuck is asking you to take immigrants into your home? Like seriously? All I want is for xenophobic hypocrites to STFU and let America be America. Stop telling me who I can or can't hire, who I can or can't associate with, who can or can't cross our borders.
We're in the land of the fucking free. Like I said, go to North Korea if totalitarian dictatorships are your thing.
did not enjoy anywhere near the level of social safety net that illegals today here enjoy
Pop quiz hot shot. Name a federal welfare program that immigrants (legal or illegal) are eligible for. Go on... I'll wait.
What did you find? Nothing? That's right, because welfare for immigrants has been against the law sin the mid 90s.
Now, if you're concerned about welfare, surely, your focus should be on the massive pyramid scheme that is social security. Surely you're concerned about the completely unsustainable and unnecessary transfer of wealth in our country from young people to old people, right? No? Oh shit, my bad, you probably get those checks and spend them at the club, but it's immigrants who are leeches, am I right?
most of our ancestors came here LEGALLY
The difference is arbitrary. When your ancestors came here, all they had to do was show up at Ellis Island. We've made immigrating here needlessly complex, to the point that for some LEGAL immigration is impossible.
RRRAAACCIIIISSSSTTTT
I never said this word, you did @puddy_tat. I also object to being called a leftist because I certainly am not one. Leftists populist idiots don't like immigration either, see: Sanders, Bernie.
With that said, it's interesting that you found my comment objectionable, but not the one just below it that literally says immigration was better when it was all white people, and subsequently goes on to call for the execution of Hispanic immigrants.
Is that NOT racist? It's fucking fascist, of that I am quite certain.
But whatever, I called you xenophobes and the label is apt.
I'm quite certain that nothing I've said is going to reprogram those of you who have been brainwashed by Fox News, OAN, shitty social media feeds, and a dangerous cult leader. So this will be my parting shot:
God Bless America, and God Bless our Immigrants.
And fuck it. Here's a last parting thought:
How easy would it be to put together a book of stories of old white boomers who raped or murdered sex workers? I can think of countless examples off hand, without even needing to look it up. And I can see the editorialized headline now:
MONGERS LIKE @MUDDY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE AND MURDER OF AMERICAN WOMEN
If that doesn't sound like a fair characterization to you (and I would agree it isn't) use some critical thinking before you post cringe like the OP again.
@Muddy I think you're still focused on the small picture, a limited set of facts. But I will say that I (and I believe most Dems) do not support illegal immigration and think these crimes are abhorrent and action should be taken to reduce them.
I live in a blue state. I haven't encountered a single incident where an illegal immigrant has caused a problem. I wouldn't even know it's a problem if I didn't read the news. I met one on a rare visit to a low-end go-go bar in Paterson, she showed me video on her cell phone of her walking quickly through Mexico at night, she described it in Spanish as "running with coyotes". That was the only encounter I recall with someone I could confirm was in the country illegally.
I'd like to see a balanced assessment of the pros and cons of immigration, including illegal immigration. I've read the US dairy industry would be crippled without undocumented workers.
Biden has failed on immigration, I've said it before. But it's partly a failure on messaging. If Biden was on his A-game he could rip Trump a new asshole in the upcoming debate, slicing through all the right wing bullshit on immigration and other topics. Not expecting that to happen though.
I’m against it !
O/
“I live in a blue state. I haven't encountered a single incident where an illegal immigrant has caused a problem”
—
I used to live in a county that was(and still is) a hot bed of illegal immigrants. There are plenty of jobs available that don’t require a lot of skill other than hard work.
What’s liberals like you don’t understand - it’s not that they commit crimes (despite the well documented cases that make national headlines) and it’s not that they take jobs from Americans - there are more jobs available than people - it’s the under publicized fact that they are willing to work for less. They work for employers who pay less than the competitive rate or don’t offer insurance and benefits. The trade off being they look the other way because they are hiring undocumented illegals.
This goes against the very core principles of libs like you. I’ve heard anecdotal cases of employers even paying less than minimum wage. But the illegals don’t care. A group of 6 of 7 guys live cheaply in a one bedroom apartment. This is the dirty literal secret liberals either don’t know or turn a blind eye.
Ronjax2
You have an issue with reading comprehension. I never once indicated I was a xenophobe or even didn’t like immigrants. I simply said if the majority of the world claim they hate America, then why do they still want to come here.
@Ron yeah man there’s a lot of free shit they get. Free housing, free clothes, free food, in NYC they are giving them credit cards to buy what they want. The kids go to the already full schools, emergency rooms are treated as primary cares, they are not turned away. A lot of these hospitals are in financial due to this. And the hardcore criminals that do come in add to the chaos that has already overwhelmed many cities. What did you miss all that?
Notice how the side that wants open borders, they always come in saying I’m gonna show everybody how awesome a person I am and how welcoming and not xenophobic. It’s never “Hey uhh how we gonna pay for this???” But adults in the real world who actually leave their house once in a while and have a job, just have to ponder that supposedly racist question about being able to afford shit.
And as far as bringing in the race stuff I don’t where that’s coming from. Check out NY or Chicago many black folks sound like Ann Coulter now a days they see what’s up. Many Mexican Americans near the border, they see the bs thats going on, they don’t like it. It’s all in the polls. Americans need come first because this is America.
Also not to mention the future terror attacks. There a lot of people that don’t like this country and wish to do us great harm, now a days those very folks can just waltz right in.
Biden owns this.
And there is the big question.... what is "this"?
Neither side has provided a comprehensive and balanced overview of the issue. So it's been up to the individual voter to do their own research. My general conclusions have been: Biden has done an overall poor job on the issue, Republicans have exaggerated and distorted the issue, and Biden has not effectively countered that. Messaging is absolutely a factor.
“I live in a blue state. I haven't encountered a single incident where an illegal immigrant has caused a problem”
Tell that to New York City Mayor Eric Adams. He says, "the migrant crisis will destroy New York City." He issued an executive order restricting bus arrivals of migrants. He says New York City is paying for a national problem; the southern border is in crisis and is a disaster.
Migrant = illegal immigrant.
And here's the most effective message that Biden can deliver in the upcoming debate, and he doesn't even have to say it directly.
He just needs to outline the provisions of the bipartisan Senate immigration bill, the bill Trump encouraged his supporters to kill, and put Trump on the spot: "Mr. Trump, will you encourage Congress to pass this bill so we can make real progress on immigration?" And keep repeating and hammering at it when Trump tries to deflect.
Then Americans will once again be reminded of the fact: Trump is a self-serving, self-promoting douchebag who will enable more American murders like the one Muddy posted on, for his own political gain.
^ Abortion was never a right. Roe v. Wade itself was a violation of the 10th amendment. All Roe was, was progressive cheating and an example of why we have the second amendment. Only a total cunt would call the bipartisan immigration bill" a solution to anything. It's like another fucking ceasefire with the pigs of Hamas. There was a cease fire on October 7th, so another is useless. There have been immigration laws on the books to prevent the hordes of illegal fucking welfare leeches and criminals from flooding in, they aren't enforced so a new grandstanding law means shit. Fact is no such thing as an American progressive, they are just enemies of America who happen to have citizenship. I live in a blue state too you fucking cum stain and we have had four native born citizens die at the hand of illegal alien drunk drivers, but het that's been over the last year, the killers weren't white and collected welfare, while the victims were white taxpayers, so who fucking cares about them in a blue state.
“And there is the big question…. What is ‘this’?”
@ wld4 - "This" is all the abnormal, immoral and illogical things happening at our border. On issues you fucking libs support (like changing our border from a leaky faucet into a fire hose) you LOVE to demand absolute and provable statistics about what bad has come from it, without applying the slightest bit of inference or common sense as to what could be (and likely is) happening.
On the reverse side, for issues you’re against, you speculate, embellish and outright lie about what the potential terrifying effects of something might be, without a shred of actual evidence. AR15s must be banned, even though the last time you did that there was no measurable effect on gun crime. Climate change is going to kill us all in 12 years… or is that down to 7 or 8 by now? I could go on all day, but you see what I’m saying.
So to your arguments that “prove” illegals commit crime at the same or a lesser rate than ordinary Americans, or that these border jumpers as a whole somehow contribute more than the resources they consume, I say “this”:
Since the genius Joe Biden took office there have been over 1.7 MILLION border crossers we refer to as “gotaways”. Can I provide reliable statistics on what these runners are up to? No, I can’t. Why not? Because they “got away”. Duh! Nobody knows who or where they are. Now think about that for a moment, because I’m going to speculate a bit on what they “could” be doing, and I guaran-fuckin-tee you my assessment will be a lot more realistic than guessing how many lives will be saved by micro-stamping bullet casings.
Every person on a journey to illegally cross the US Border knows that if you throw your hands up and surrender to the authorities, you’ll be treated fairly, given food, water, and medical attention, a place to sleep, and be released with a “notice to appear” in a few years. So why would any sane individual want to take off running through life threatening terrain and temperatures, just to enter the US without being processed? Unless you’re completely blinded by your idiotic liberal ideology, you must agree these are not the “good ones”. These are the gang members, rapists, murderers, and all-around scum, many of whom have already been deported multiple times but keep coming back. You want statistics? Again, impossible to know. But I would venture a strong educated guess that 99% of these have ill intentions. And we should HOPE that they are only rapists or murderers, and not part of an organized terrorist movement.
It only took 19 guys to pull off the events of September 11. Now we have 1.7 MILLION gotaways that disappeared into our country. Among those, do you think there are fewer, or more, than 19 America-hating jihadists?
Yet people don't want Trump back in office, merely because he hurts peoples' feel-feels when he speaks.
But, illegals flood the country and commit heinous crimes..... still not grounds for ousting Biden.
^ nah people don’t want Trump back in office because they actually remember what was going on during his time as president. He never did anything he promised, including building a wall and making Mexico pay the cost. BTW legal immigration went down while he was president
I don’t give a shit about who’s responsible for this mess, all I want is for the folks who’ve been elected to these various positions do their fucking jobs and fix this mess.
of course we have illegal immigration under control. I mean people work from home now so the commute I have done for the past 25 years (11 minutes) should be the same or less and not 22 minutes, except on Friday afternoon when its 35 minutes. The government admits to 45- 50 million legal and illegal immigrants since 1990, which means its probably 80-85 and why when I landed in Boston after a week in South Florida, it felt like coming back from a foreign country.
I knew I always liked long John Daly
The gotaway numbers are huge, but with a divided government we need a bipartisan effort to get the funding needed to address the issue, including more border patrols. The only truly bipartisan effort has been the Senate bill, which Trump blocked for his own political gain.
PuddyTat thinks it's too late for messaging, but that's only for folks who have already drunk the Trump kool-aid. The undecided voters in swing states are going to determine the election, and they are going to be reminded that Biden is the guy looking for a bipartisan solution, while Trump and Republicans are just playing political football.
rofl @ "deathbed conversion" I self-identify as "Progressive" (sometimes) but definitely agree on that analysis of Biden's border slumber. A lot in this thread is invective, but I can read things that convince me, here and there, or, if not convince, then at least inform me of what the other side is worried about. I can't personally justify turning in favor of Trump simply because Biden is demonstrably bad about some things, and I certainly can't favor the insurrectionist criminal for his strengths in insurrection and crime. I think the strongest point the Right has, is the fact that the "entitled Left" of (what they call) "elites" treats the American people as though "they" (the citizens) aren't "good enough" for "us" (the elected leaders). It ought to be the other way around. Democrats long ago lost the moral high ground on being the "party of the people", I think when they (and the citizenry) abandoned the Labor movement (and the necessary background education in what it ought to be, what it accomplishes, what it works against, what it is not).
So, I understand the Right's derision of the "elites" (with all that they mean by that term). I can't defend the Biden Harris ticket (or Hillary Clinton; or ... a lot of others) on that score. I'm probably still voting for them, largely because as an educated citizen I value having expertise in leadership rather than bluster and personability. I'd rather have a snot-nosed snob who knows what he's doing as long as what he's doing is policies in favor of working-class and at the expense of multi-millionaires. So I still stand by "eat the rich" but I'm duly chastened by the consistent repetition, by Right winger one after another, of just how annoying and out-of-touch and patronizing and downright corrupt the "elite" leadership is. If you could come up with someone OTHER than Romney / Trump / McCain / Bush1 / 2, all of whom inherited gaboodles of wealth and were (most of them) born into political insider-ship, I'd completely believe you on the "elites" issue. But Trump inherited a Manhattan real estate empire, so, you can't completely whine that he represents something counter to insider-elite leadership. He's on good record referring to working class people as "chumps" and military enlistees as "suckers." Sounds pretty snot-nosed and "elite" to me.
Democrats could learn from this discussion, just by listening harder. "Elites" don't do much of that. They think they "know better" from the outset. I'm really impressed with Bloomberg, who says in all his interviews that political leadership is about building coalitions, finding the people who are with you and bringing along the other people who might not start out with you. Biden doesn't really try to do that, he thinks he knows what's best. With something like Fauci's leadership of the Covid response, where it's simply plain science, he's got a good claim for being right. But with almost everything else, he needs to learn some humility. Stop telling people that this particular goal is something they should want. Even if they do want that goal, they still will hate being told what they should do.
@PuddyTat - No, one data point and message will not turn the tide, but cumulatively they can have an impact. Have a look at the latest Fox News poll.
For most Americans this is an issue playing out in the news, not in front of their faces. Your statement is bs. Trump and Republicans are playing political football and attempting a con (just like you) to exaggerate and distort the issue. You will see this countered and exposed in the Dem spending leading up to November.
The great plague on America is immigration, especially muslim immigration.
