tuscl

Am I Antisemitic?

Book Guy
I write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
Friday, May 3, 2024 7:26 PM
A new US House of Representatives' bill re-defines antisemitism for some governmental purposes (mostly educational institutions etc.) on the basis of the Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's working definition. (Bill not yet passed by Senate. Also, definition includes statement that it should be "non-legally binding" so Congress uh ... doh ...) Associated Press story -- [view link] Story links HRA definition "What is antisemitism" -- [view link] This definition includes the following bullet point: "Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor." Bullshit. I think that the existence of a State of Israel is indeed a racist endeavor. I know the definitions of all the operative verbal terms, I have a good background in international law, and I say, Israel is indeed a racist endeavor. Nowhere else ON THE PLANET in the modern world have we ever condoned the level of race-based exclusion and preference as we do for Israel. Choosing to put it on land owned and occupied for two millennia by thousands (millions) by Palestinians and other Middle Easterners was a racist choice, in which one racial or ethnic group (Jews) was preferred and allowed to supplant others. We're stuck with it now, I don't necessarily advocate dismantling Israel since it's there and it's a fact, but I can't simply say, "Oh it's not race-based." Fact begs otherwise. Also, I believe Jews are normal humans. I do not consider people of Jewish heritage to be less valuable, less worthwhile, less smart capable valid etc., than any members of any other group. They have as much of a right to self-determination as anyone else -- that is, within the confines of a nation-state where you live, you get a vote. Methodists all get one vote; Dutch Reform, one vote; Moslem, one; Jews, a WHOLE GODDAMNED NATION? Why do they get the special treatment? As an extension to this discussion, I heard some friends of mine assert that the campus protests are all antisemitic. I don't find this to necessarily be the case. I think a more nuanced analysis is merited. Many of the leaders and organizers may have anti-Jewish motives; and the act of supporting Hamas is an act of supporting a terror group, obviously. But meanwhile there are plenty of well-meaning, though perhaps misled, young college kids who just want the world to know that (a) they really dislike the attacks on civilians that are going on in Gaza, in which Israel the nation-state attacks Palestinian civilian people; and they also just want the world to know, "hey I'm cool I go to protests." So I can't categorize ALL protesters as necessarily pro-Hamas or antisemitic, though I can see that much of the protests may behind-the-scenes have been organized under those motives. I think many (I don't know the percent) of the protesters think they have good motives, probably don't think they're disliking Jews by demanding that the nation-state Israel please stop the attacks on civilians, and probably just desire less war and especially less civilian casualties over all. Whether they're voicing those desires effectively is of course a different discussion; as is, whether the desires are reasonable. But what about, are those desires antisemitic? No. I don't think so. So am I the antisemitic one here, for saying Israel is a racially founded state? No, probably not. Am I antisemitic, for agreeing in principle with some of the basic desires of some of the protesters, in particular that attacks on civilians are bad? No, not.

36 comments

  • skibum609
    2 months ago
    Nope you are just a piece of shit jewelry hating progressive terrorist supporting lying sack of shit. International law expert? Lmao. Go fuck yourself. Why aren't you bitching about all the Islsmic states, just the one Jewish one? No wonder you support the terrorist supporting protestors, you are an ignorant bigot as well. Not one person killed in Gaza is innocent and every death on both sides is the fault of Hamas and their despicable bigoted supporters. Don't breed, we have enough vermin on earth.
  • skibum609
    2 months ago
    Fuck you and auto correct.
  • Book Guy
    2 months ago
    Oh I bitch about the Islamic states, and I certainly don't support the terrorist groups (as I made clear, but you missed it) but why don't you elaborate on this idea instead: "Not one person killed in Gaza is innocent." OK, convince me. Children? Doctors? Hamas hostages?
  • groundball
    2 months ago
    this new law is so stupid. it's not going to protect anyone and people will do stupid shit with it like saying college football games on Saturday are antisemitic because they don't respect the sabbath
  • skibum609
    2 months ago
    Having them on Sundy disrespects the real Sabbath. As far as innocent? No one in a war is innocent and no one in a war isn't a target. The weak progressive ideas that civilians should be immune from war and that the deaths pf women and children somehow mean more than other deaths is insane. 70% of Gazans voted for Hamas; 70% support them now; they are reaping what they sowed, just like the Germans in Dresden (100,000 civilian dead in one day); Hiroshima and Nagasaki (almost as many dead as Dresden); Sherman's march to the sea (northers united states committing terrorism, rape and murder against a civilian population); Ukraine (Russia has been intentionally attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure since day 1). No one is going after Chhina for exterminating 500,000 Uighurs; no one is going after Russia; no one is intervening in Haiti and on and on and on. 1 set of rules for the tiny Jewish nation and 1 set of rules for everyone else is the worst type of bigotry and racism, except for those pretending otherwise, which is just a pussy, chickenshit type of racism, sort of like wearing a mask over your mouth, but not your nose as well and then claiming to be an anti-masker. International law is also clear that if you launch attacks from civilian areas, or retreat to civilian areas after you hide, any dead due to retaliation is your fault, not the retaliator. The exact opposite of the NFL. I don't care the Jew hating bigots exist, I just despise the limp cowardice that they exhibit when justifying their bigotry. When we were kids and the civil rights movement was going on, the same people who hate Jews, but pretend it's only Zionists and Israelis, would say I don't hate black people, I just hate N word. Thats who is supporting the protestors lol, cannot say that word about violent scum without a chuckle. Today's betting tip: Tomorrow night, this Bruins fans says that the Maple Leafs are a lock to win.
  • twentyfive
    2 months ago
    If you think Israel is a racially founded state you’re either an anti semite or tragically uneducated, Israel is the only Jewish state in the world, and they predate all of the Muslim countries, plus religion isn’t race. There are no such thing as Palestinians they were Egyptian, or Jordanians, or even Syrians, but Palestine is a made up name from the Roman Empire the folks in those parts were animists or worshiped no longer existing religions, just for the record Jews have lived in Eretz Yisroeal for over 5789 years our history goes back well before the founding of Muslims and Christian’s which both are offshoots from Judaism
  • ilbbaicnl
    2 months ago
    If, in 2024, Israel didn't exist, it's extremely unlikely it would be created. About as likely as a Roma state being created. Truth is, wherever there are undisputed borders, it's because, at some point in history, there was a successful genocide of the people who were displaced in the establishment of that border. It helps to have some basic knowledge of real history (the kind that's illegal to teach in Florida). You quickly see that Israel is not The Empire nor the Jedi Knights. It's Billy Dee Williams , just like the rest of us. Why care about an argument between two ignorant positions?
  • jaybud999
    2 months ago
    The only sabbath that's real is Black Sabbath.....you fucking War Pig Skibum. Israel shouldn't try to expand their little villages over the years, build walls and fences and not expect some form of animosity from the folks living there before WWII. Hamas was wrong to kill, rape, and kidnap in retaliation for years of subjugation. Israel is wrong for pounding through Gaza the way that they did. Skibum is a fucking sphincter. He's in his 60's....trying to keep his blood pressure and ateriosclerosis in check, hopefully unsuccessfully. This way, his generation, and their thought process dies. Oh, and the Bruins will take it. That is all.
  • 5footguy
    2 months ago
    I don't believe anything a person "claims" should be against any law. You can claim the earth is flat, and that makes you an idiot in my view. You can claim something about Israel, and that will make some people mad. And so on. If you are labeled as "anti-Semitic" and all they do is get mad, well, they have a right to do that. But if there is any punishment for making any claim, then I'm not for that. When a "claim" becomes a crime, we just take one step closer to 1984. It's become cliche because it's so damn accurate. Thought crimes are pretty much upon us.
  • Puddy Tat
    2 months ago
    LOL OP Palestinians there for thousands of years??? Jews were there for 2500 years before Islam existed. Even Yasser Arafat said there is no "Palestinian people," just a bunch of Arabs that are too terrorist for any other Arab country to want. Arabs enjoy more rights in Israel than Jews do in the rest of the Arab world. Hell, most of Israel is Mizrahi Jews forced out of the rest of the Arab world. Anyone who believes Hamas casualty figures is a first class dope. They've been caught smoothing their numbers so badly they claim record numbers of casualties on days no major battles have been fought, and they claim people shuttling fighters and weapons as "civilians." And for anyone who says Israel is committing genocide, why is the Palestinian population 8 times what it was at the time of the "nakba"? If Israel wanted to fuck shit up in Gaza there would be no humanitarian catastrophe because there would be no humans left. Fuck Hamas and its supporters, which are 3/4 of Palestinians.
  • twentyfive
    2 months ago
    Saying that you are against Zionism, is being Anti-Semetic, Zionism is simply the desire of Jews in the diaspora to return to their homeland, and their holy city of Jerusalem, it's a very simple thing, same as Muslims making a pilgrimage to Mecca. Every year at Passover our parting salutation is next year in Zion (Jerusalem). that's how the Seder commences, it's not complicated at all.
  • twentyfive
    2 months ago
    ^ Not commences concludes that was Siri
  • wld4tatas
    2 months ago
    OP's comments about the protesters are spot on - sure some of them are anti-Israel, and some even pro-Hamas, but most of them are likely not. And many of those people are probably pissed that the agitators are getting most of the attention and changing the story.
  • WiseToo
    2 months ago
    I think a good number of these protesters are also there to meet girls and get laid.
  • ilbbaicnl
    2 months ago
    @jaybud Japan was isolationist, until the US sent a warship to their main port, and threatened to bombard the city unless Japan opened itself up to foreign trade. Since the US wronged the Japan, do you think the US should have just let them take over the Philippines? Just chalked it up to karma? Should Scotland and Wales raid into England and kill civilians because, without retaliation, because all of Britain was historically Celtic? How far are you going to go with this idea, that people can murder without retaliation, based on historic wrongs? There is historical precedent of armies unilaterally withdrawing from cities, and declaring them open cities, to avoid loss of life and other destruction. Hamas has done this exactly zero times in Gaza.
  • Jascoi
    2 months ago
    my GOD. peace damn it. tolerate others. live and let live. stop the killing. NONE of it is justified.
  • skibum609
    2 months ago
    Hey Jaybud - fuck you, ya little pussy. Go jack off to your pics of Adolph you fucking homo. You and your cum stain muslim buddies are nothing more than roaches.
  • Hank Moody
    2 months ago
    Netanyahu was on thin ice for years before this. Was indicted in 2019 for taking bribes and fraud. His trial began in 2021 and is still ongoing. His party had trouble for years establishing a coalition government and finally did so, by uniting disparate fractional parties. I’m not one to always blame a president for failures of a country’s intelligence services, but Israel ignored direct intelligence of the attack before it happened. This is not a stable situation and it’s right to question Bono’s motives. We as a country rallied around W after 9/11. In retrospect our decisions to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and kill tens of thousands of people, including civilians, are certainly open to question. It’s not wrong to question what Israel is doing. It may not be clear until the war stops and where Israel stops. Israel is destroying housing and infrastructure. There may be nowhere to house people after this is over, not to mention the destruction of property and the opportunity to make a living and survive. I have a problem with that. I condemn Hamas.
  • Hank Moody
    2 months ago
    Not Bono. Bibi.
  • Puddy Tat
    2 months ago
    Lol @Bono. I was wondering if he was popping off at the mouth again or if that was a typo. My closest Israeli friend is conservative but hates Bibi. Says Bibi has no principles beyond the acquisition of power. Says Naftali Bennett is his guy. I don't know internal Israeli politics well but I trust his judgment.
  • jaybud999
    2 months ago
    @Skibum Bruins won. That is all.
  • uniquename
    2 months ago
    If you have to ask…
  • skibum609
    2 months ago
    The Bruins did win and avoided being the first team in history to lose a 3-1 playoff lead two years in a row. One Stanley cup in 52 years says it all.
  • crosscheck
    2 months ago
    Ski - God Bless the Toronto Maple Leafs. The Bruins may be a choker organization, but Toronto is the biggest choker organization in sports. They find a way to lose. Always. They are who they are.
  • skibum609
    2 months ago
    I have to admit I wasn't aware of the Leafs record in 7th games. Since I watched the last cup winning team's 7 games at Rhode Island Dolls, I decided strip club for this 7th game, but went to Boardroom. My wife told me the next morning to keep going there for all clinching games lol.
  • Book Guy
    2 months ago
    I'm sorry I had to skip participating in this thread for a while due to internet privacy and family etc. (Maple Leafs notwithstanding) but then again, I'm not sorry. I guess it blew up in my absence and then repaired itself. For me, simple concept is, I think Jews are equal to all other humans and that really doesn't even need to be said; but I think "Zionism" in certain definitions is not a very good thing. I do believe in Israel's right to defend itself, now that Israel exists in the form as established in 1948 and we're definitely not going to simply eradicate it due to some theory, and I also believe in the Jewish people's right to self-determination. But there are some internet resources that go further, and say, I think wrongly, that any belief that is counter to Zionism is inherently antisemitic. I disagree, since I believe that one can be both (a) equal-minded about Jews (Jews aren't stupid, or greedy, or somehow a lower form of life, or any other dumb racial opinion) and about the Jewish people's right to self-determination, but one can also simultaneously be (b) unhappy about the usurpation of non-Jewish people's homes in 1948, which was a necessary component of the current Zionist establishment of current form of Israel the nation-state. I think many forms of Zionism go way too far into zealotry and racial exclusion. Thinking that Jews aren't allowed to racially exclude other tribes, is thinking (IMO) that Jews ought to live by the same rules we expect everyone else to live by. (And I do think most Jews try to do exactly that, and succeed most of the time, doing their best like the rest of us, slipping up like the rest of us, so I'm not saying they're to be criticized on that score.) So honestly, I was surprised when the first few respondents included the "duration" argument -- people who listed how long the Jews have been in that location, and the fact that it's their ancestral home. Yes, I wanted to say, but so what? By logical extension of that argument, I personally own the African nation of Mali, because it's my ancestral home (after all, Y-chromosomal Adam was from there, and I'm descended from him), and never mind the people whom I, the conquering White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, am going to evict on my way to my ownership. Or, by a less tenuous logical extension, the Volga Bulgars who are currently residing mostly in Bulgaria would, as a group, have a right to evict everyone from Kazakhstan all the way to Mongolia, to make more space for their horses, because the steppes are the Volga Bulgars' ancestral homeland. The Bulgars left that land much more recently than various portions of the Jews left the Levant area. But this is idiotic, and I don't believe either of those extensions does much justice to the Jewish duration argument. Yet the Middle East has had various conquerors and changes in leadership for thousands of years, Ottomans or Seljuks or Hittites or Babylonians or Persians or the damned British mandates or what-not else. Why do we pick one particular year, and one particular tribe, to privilege? I disagree with that privilege, since it so radically disenfranchised people who were right there well settled and had long duration leading up to the year 1948, but I also can't really come up with a better way to solve the problem, personally. And it's not like full eviction occurred in 1948. There wasn't wholesale mass-deportation everywhere, though it did happen in places. Today, the current nation of Israel is deliberately multi-cultural; the non-Jewish (mostly Arab-descent) people who live there are among the most successful and safe individuals in all the Middle East; and the population of Israel is mostly not European Jews traveling toward their ancestral home due to the Nazi holocaust, but rather, Israel's Jews are mostly Middle Eastern people in the first place. Further, it can be rightly said that the inhabitants of Gaza WANTED Hamas to run the place, they voted for them several times over, and it can also rightly be said that Israel did what it could to accommodate the "Palestinian people" (if such a tribe exists, which is questionable) on several previous occasions. (And BTW there's no such thing as a human "race." We really should be using the word "ethnic group" or similar, I guess ...) It's very mixed. I don't have an opinion that won't offend someone. So, for me, when I was playing a bit of an obvious devil's advocate up there in my first post, I think it was most important to me to see what other people's responses were. I don't know why I posted it, I didn't have my motivations well worked out, I just wanted to shake the hornet's nest and see which Maple Leafs shook out. The reliance on the 5000-years-duration argument to me is the least convincing. I think I can be both anti-Zionist and not antisemitic, but you have to fiddle with the definition of Zionism to make it logically coherent. I think many of the college protesters don't know that they've signed up for events sponsored by major political professionals whose agenda is to eradicate Israel. And I think eradicating Israel on the basis of tribal or racial animosity is definitely antisemitic, and also (in an enlightened-self-interest sort of way) a poor plan for the future. And I think Netanyahu's prosecution of this war is unreasonable, very much inappropriate, though this doesn't mean the whole state of Israel is at fault any more than the whole of the USA was at fault for the Vietnam debacle. I think the attacks on Gaza have gotten perhaps to the point of ICC's definition of War Crimes (attacking civilian targets, seems to me to be the easiest element to prove), but then again, how else ya gonna prosecute this war against what is essentially a civilian professional dug-in infrastructure? I mean, he couldn't send troops to go house-to-house with a questionnaire, right? "Do you like Hamas, or dislike Hamas? Right, check, dislike, nobody here, move on to the next house." Kind of "Cake or Death" Eddie Izzard ... So Go Leafs Go next year I guess.
  • twentyfive
    2 months ago
    ^ you want a real simple response, here goes, there was a truce until 10/7, not just broke a truce but created the most horrific slaughter of Jewish people since Adolph Hitler, now explain to us how any government any place in this world can make their citizens feel safe living side by side with such a vile group of murderous idiots. That in a nutshell is why being anti Zionist is no different than anti Semitism. In the history of the modern state of Israel which was created to give the Jews of the diaspora a safe haven, never have Zionists committed such heinous crimes.
  • gammanu95
    2 months ago
    Twentyfive is wrong. There was never any truce or cease fire between Israel and Hamas. There was only a pause in hostilities. It was foolish of israel to literally let down their guard. The State of Palestine was created by the British in the 1920s. Jewish immigration to Palestine led to fighting between the Israelis and the Palestinians until the Palestinians were expelled. Thus, a liberal could argue that Israel occupies stolen land. You cannot equate anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Anti semites would be anti zionist by definition, but not everyone who opposes the location of Israel on formerly Palestine is necessarily an antisemite. It is a very complicated issue that has plagued the global community for nearly eighty years and will not be solved at an point in our lifetime. Regardless of whatever atrocities Hamas commits, you must be even more monstrous to support the obliteration and destruction of Palestinians or Palestinian lands in response. Genocide is a cardinal evil. Those are the facts.
  • twentyfive
    2 months ago
    ^ BULLSHIT
  • Puddy Tat
    2 months ago
    "You cannot equate anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism." @gammanu - it isn't that anti-Zionism is NECESSARILY anti-Semitic, it's that most of it is. Yeah, Israel needs to stop bulldozing Palestinian settlements in the West Bank, and that won't happen because Bibi is beholden to the far-right (including outright Jewish supremacists) for his coalition). But the Palestinians themselves? One of the most fucked up, detestable cultures on Earth. 3/4 support Hamas and 10/7. They pay the families of martyrs well over the average monthly salary. They reward murders of Israelis, and teach kids language with UN-subsidized textbooks that glorify martyrdom and killing Israelis. And as part of negotiations, they want these criminal cocksuckers released. They have been offered their state, 95% of their land under Arafat before they backed out. If you believe Hamas' casualty figures, you're a first class retard. LOL did you see even the UN's casualty figures mysteriously cut in half? If this were a "genocide" you wouldn't see the Palestinian population growing faster than the Israeli population. The IDF takes great pains to avoid civilian casualties and by independent analysts, are damn good at it; we weren't dropping "door-knockers" in Mosul, for one. If this were a "genocide," Palestine would be radioactive glass and dust. Jew-hating cunt Rashida Tlaib was lying when she said "from the river to the sea" is a cry for coexistence. In Arabic, it's "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be ARAB." Tolerance, my left testicle. I love watching these "queers for Palestine" when they'd get their gender-bending asses tossed off skyscrapers, against the most LGBTQ-tolerant country in the region. Until the Palestinians kick Hamas out, unfuck themselves, and show themselves to act like a civilized people, may they meet the fate of all the enemies of human progress and civilization.
  • ilbbaicnl
    2 months ago
    "From the river to the sea" means a one state solution. But, LIkud, the PLO, Islamic Jihad, and Hamas, have different versions of what the single state would be like. [view link]
  • georgmicrodong
    2 months ago
    The Jewish people aren't the only Semites, so defining "Antisemitism" in term of the Jewish people is, itself, racist. Both Israelites and Palestinians have a right to exist. And even if the Jewish people have the prior claim to the *land*, that doesn't excuse what either of them are doing to the other.
  • skibum609
    2 months ago
    Let's stop pretending that like the Kurds, who don't get a homeland, the Palestinians are a separate ethnic group with a clearly defined homeland. From about 1300 to 1918 the entire area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. There were Turks, Jews and Arabs there. There was no Israel; no Jordan; no Iraq; no Syria; no Lebanon; no Palestine and no Palestinians. Just Turks, Jews and Arabs.
  • gammanu95
    2 months ago
  • Studme53
    2 months ago
    I respect Israel and the Jewish people. I just don’t like the U.S. financing wars.
  • gammanu95
    2 months ago
    ^Agreed. We should be selling arms and armaments, not giving away free stuff. We should also prioritize our own borders and our own security before that of Israel or Ukraine!
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