One key difference between SA girls and OTC strippers

I have had similar experiences. There is often a very fine line between a recurring OTC and SA relationships, but what you said about disengagement is very true. In my limited experience, the SA disengagement is often difficult and messy - similar to a civilian breakup. I think this is because SA girls generally do not think of themselves as escorts or sex workers, and they have to work a lot harder to find a real, decent, and paying benefactor.

Most of the guys on SA sites are frauds, and just want to text and flirt with a hot girl, get her attention, and get her to send sexy pics with no intention of ever meeting - or paying. And if they do ever agree to meet, will do everything to string it out as long as possible before having to pay for anything - and then they try to cheap out as much as possible (NGL - I have been guilty of this myself). So it could take a SA girl literally hundreds of hits and a lot of time before she lands on a decent deal. So when she lands one, she wants to hang on to it.

OTOH, the rules of engagement with OTC are so much better defined. Girls get paid with every meet up, and literally every contact leads to a paying gig. So OTC girls are more willing to move on more easily since their business model is much more efficient.

What is an SA girl?

Many of the girls on SA are looking for a sugar boyfriend. And I have found the same thing. The breakups are very close to civvie break ups. In fact, many of the girls have convinced themselves that SA is just a dating site. We are having dates that I just happen to give them money for.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy, lol.

I actually have come across several profiles of "older" women that I found very attractive, yet I didn't message them on purpose for that very reason. If I date a girl in her 20's, she knows what I'm using her for. A woman that is close to age-appropriate may say she wants NSA, but deep down she's looking for her next ex-husband.

I have never been on SA and likely won't. I've read enough anecdotes on this site about what a pain it is to find potential options, meet up, arrive at terms, etc. Who's got time for all that. To me meeting a girl at a club feels way more natural.

On a recent work trip in a city that I rarely visit I did have a dancer at a club propose that I take care of her for $5k a month. The balls.

It was the first time I had ever met her. All I can figure is that she makes that offer to a lot of guys and she's just playing a numbers game and eventually some chump bites.

@Captain,

In the early days I felt the same way, but the longer I do this the more efficient I get at it. The fake accounts become easier to identify (they almost all have telltale signs), I've developed a genuine sounding copy and paste intro which seems to work in getting girls to my profile and I've become good at adeptly moving a conversation from SA to text when the opening chatter is promising.

All of this has dramatically reduced the amount of time I need to invest in casting lines out and getting a few bites. From there, my profile is also pretty good now (after a few reconstructions) and my pic is what it is (though I replaced it once as well), lol. I don't spend more than a few hours a week now in replenishing potential prospects.

I am not old - just older now. When I was young - on SA in its early stages I was close in age to several of the girls I was courting. Many of them (especially from smaller towns and smaller metro areas) were on there with the end goal of locking down a guy whether it be a long term boyfriend or even marriage. I think a lot of naive women on there thought if they put hot photos of themselves up on the site some rich guy would come sweep them off their feet.

My point is sadly some women on their think they don’t have any options in life or any self motivation but to find a well off guy to take care of them. Of course that’s not everyone on there, then there’s the ones who try to get 10 sugar daddies so their calendar is full the entire week doing extravagant things. Some women are successful at that, I’ve know “ugly” ones that are always being taken on exotic trips. I laugh because I can only image what the dudes look like that they’re having to put up with.

A few years back I spent about 3 months on SA, I met a few girls, some were genuinely hot, problem was I didn’t have the patience for the endless conversations required before a meet actually happened. I always had better results with strippers and there were a lot less complications.
In my opinion it’s a lot less complicated meeting women in the flesh, at the very least you see who you’re dealing with, and get a better handle on what you can expect.

@25: I agree with a lot of that. There are definitely pros and cons.

The cons are that: (1) you don't really know what you're dealing with until you meet her in person; and (2) there is some "get to know you" groundwork that has to be laid in advance. A recent example of that was the girl that ranted about politics for almost two hours before we moved things to the hotel. I had a great time in the sack, but I don't think that the 2 hours of torture before the event was worth it.

The upsides OTOH are also pretty good. For example, I enjoy the willingness of most of them to move from meet n greet to the full monte on the first date, which all but one has done. I also have more control over the timing of the fishing and groundwork activities instead of having to go to the club and hope she's working in order to advance the conversation, which is important given my tight schedule.

Again, pros and cons. My fun has been a mix of the two and will probably continue that way for the foreseeable future. That's unless I finally land that really sweet stripper who I've been trying to see for months, at which point she may be getting a chunk of my spending for a while and my SA activities may go dormant for a bit. It looks promising as we finally have a planned OTC date, but that's another story for another time. 😉

^ I know a lot of guys do enjoy SA and have positive experiences, I did too, I just don’t want to commit the amount of time and energy necessary, I’m past the point where it’s worth the effort. I have other things that occupy my time these days, so you guys enjoy what you’re doing, it’s all good.

@rickdugan

I will play along and comment on your discussion.

You wrote and I quote:

“I ended one in particular because things were getting a little too heavy. She was probably a little too close to age appropriate to being with (late 30s), but she was hot as hell. We had some great sex to be sure and other fun times out on the town, but I was straight with her from the beginning that I’m not the solution to anyone’s problems – these nights are supposed to be my getaways from a very busy and complicated life.”

Pics and Vids of the “hot as hell” 30s yo and your “very busy and complicated life” or it didn’t happen.

:D

Seeking (Arrengements) is no longer a Sugar Dating site, now is being rebranded as a dating site.

In its sugar bowl times the website did work as a Sugar Dady Sugar Baby relationship site, with some degree of quality over quantity, both in Sugar Daddies and Sugar Babies. And some women made some good money when there were less girls, and some really wealthy men.

When it became more “popular” and a lot of girls from all “walks of life” joined, the quality diminished both of girls and men.

Now some “escorts” and “strippers” use Seeking to “screen” clients.

And the process to find a quality “date” is more time consuming, but worth the effort for some people.

So hookers on sa are more prone to gfes 👏

^Icee, are you educating us again honey? It's always cute when a 20-something year old girl shares her deep wisdom with guys twice her age and with 50 times her experience. Keep up the good work kiddo. 😉

At the risk of becoming the least liked person here :) There's a huge spread in the kind of women on Seeking. It's everything from escorts and other sexworkers, all the way to women who have a somewhat idealized view of arrangements, and everything in between. All of us on tuscl are experienced sexwork clients, and think in those terms: transactional, no strings attached, today's date does not imply any future dates, etc. This is the perfect outlook when we run into sexworkers, or sexwork-adjacent sugar babies who are looking at this as a job.

A huge number of SBs, especially the younger newer ones, are on the other side of the scale though. They may or may not even think of themselves as sexworkers, but whether they do or not, their view of sugar is that it's a longer-term relationship where an older man who actually likes them them, supports them financially, gives them advice they don't get from their parents, shows them all kinds of cool experiences they couldn't otherwise have, and potentially stays with them for a long time. If a guy treats them nicely, unless he specifically says he's looking for NSA/short-term, she thinks they're on the same page. IF that same guy smashes them a few times then moves on with no fucks given, they are pretty crushed, if not downright emotionally traumatized. You see this constantly on the sugar forum, it can be pretty heartbreaking.

This is most likely to happen when a no strings attached sexwork client type of guy (that is, all of us here), run into a longterm connected sugar relationship girl. He think she knows the deal that this is transactional, just a different sexwork variation. She thinks that, unless he specifically says he's just looking for something short-term, NSA, etc., that he's looking for the type of long term sugar relationship you see on slf, in the movies, etc -- this is the only reason she goes with him in the first place, she thinks they're both signing up for a more classic sugar relationship. He has sex with her a few times, then he's done and doesn't think anything of it, and she leaves with long-term emotional trauma.

Bottom line here is: if you don't want to traumatize these women, be up front that you're just looking for something NSA and fun and short-term, even if it's just on your profile. I figure it's a good way to keep my karmic balance from going too far negative, plus I genuinely don't want to traumatize anyone.

That’s a great quote, “I’m not the solution to anyone’s problems.”

There’s an old joke that says a woman tries to find one man to solve all her problems. A man tries find all women to solve his one problem!

===> "At the risk of becoming the least liked person here :)"

I don't think you said anything terribly out of line Sub. But I AM going to split the difference with you a bit.

To set the table a little more, as I've mentioned previously on here, I go to great lengths to weed out the pros. Thankfully in a market as small as Jacksonville it's manageable. So pretty much every one of my dates (maybe with one exception that slipped through my screening) has been with a girl who leaned towards the other side of the scale that you described.

But with that said, they also have to be realistic about this thing. In any dating situation, paid or otherwise, the odds of something hitting an expiration date are high. This is, quite logically, even more the case when there is a commercial element to it. So while the brilliance of SA is indeed that it gives women the fig leaf needed to convince themselves and others that they are not prostitutes, there is a wide gulf between emotional deniability as far as what they're doing and a complete divorce from reality relating to the commercial element involved.

So with that said, while I hear you regarding those girls who are sobbing on a discussion board, I'm not feeling quite as sympathetic. Virtually every single girl I've met except one, including those firmly in the "classic sugar" camp, put out on the first meetup. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that it wasn't because they wanted to get paid. Also each of them agreed to use a ppm model at least in the early days until we figured out how things were going to go.

Now to be fair, I agree about telling them if you're just looking for a one and done as she has the right to decide if that's enough for her to have sex. I'm actually not looking for that myself as I'm so fucking busy that having something fun and reliable is something that increasingly appeals to me, especially in a date night format. But I'm not going to feel bad when I hit it a few times, but then have to walk because things are going sideways. Also sometimes a girl becomes a one-and-done not by design, but because something about the date didn't go well. Shit happens.

Yeah, first strongly agree that sometimes you have a one-and-done not because of intent, but because the date didn't work out. The sex sucked, turns out I can't stand her personality, whatevs. I think that's a risk we all take, nothing to be done about it. Or if things go sideways -- listen, there's no guarantees, just intent. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. I move on fast if I'm not enjoying it.

Fair point on: had sex on first date and agreed to PPM. But I don't think that's totally incompatible with "I'm agreeing to these things because I think he wants to build something longer term" -- PPM and sex on the first date are the norm in sugar, and the women quickly learn they either do those things, or give it up, so they do it assuming a guy is looking longer term or he'd tell her. But those are conscious decisions, point taken.

In the end, we seem to agree: if you're looking for one and done (or a few dates and done), NSA, you don't give a fuck about them, let them know in advance, there's plenty of girls on seeking who are fine with that and a number prefer it. We're used to dealing with professional sexworkers, many SBs don't remotely have a professional sexwork outlook, and I don't think any of us are out to traumatize young women, so be upfront, let them down with some empathy, etc.

I'm with you, way too busy to keep looking for new girls, added to the fact that I enjoy sex more with someone I know better, whether it's an ATF or an SB I've seen a bunch of times.

^ ah now I get it - all this drama is why you’ve moved on to bathhouses. Makes sense…

@Subraman: I’ll expand upon what I posted above about first meetup decisions. I can’t do coffee or lunch meet n greets because I just have too much going on during daylight hours. So that leaves dinner or drink events.

In each meet n greet situation, I made sure she understood that she would get something for her trouble. Now purists on some of the discussion boards are adamant that they shouldn’t have to pay a girl for a meet n greet, but IMHO it’s only fair with a nighttime meetup when they have childcare and other issues to deal with. I let them know that it obviously wouldn’t be what I’d give them for a full night out, but at least it will cover their expenses and maybe a bit more so that we could figure things out. But I also tell them that if the meet n greet goes well, we always have the option of continuing the date.

With the exception of one girl, who let me know well before the meet that she was on a clock due to childcare limitations, every single one chose to continue the date.

Now I’d very much like to believe that my charm, wit and good looks were the overwhelming factors that tipped each girl over the edge and into a bed. But the cynic in me believes that receiving the full date payout was also a very big pull. 😆

So again, agreed with empathy, being upfront about what you’re really seeking, that ppm and putting out on a first time date doesn’t mean that she isn’t looking for long-term, etc. etc. But any girl who doesn’t understand that she’s making choices which could open her up to hit and run situations is really deluding herself.

My one experience with SA was similar to your best ones. Hot as fuck petite redhead who could suck a basketball through a drink straw and just wanted occasional spending money. She understood what I was looking for, and I understood the desires she stated. It was great, until she had to move out of town. She says that if either of us visits the other, it's on for as long as the visit lasts.

I guess she kinda spoiled me on that site, because I gave up on it a few months after she left. Even though, as rick states, it's not too difficult to weed out the fakes, scammers, and pros after a while, it's *still* tedious as hell. And while Louisville is a relatively small market, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Nashville, and St. Louis are bigger, and there seems to be a lot of spillover, and a lot of them were in the undesirable group. Even though my profile says that I'm inactive and unlikely to change that, I *still* get favorited and messages by accounts from those places, and those are almost certainly fake or pic sellers or other people I'm not interested in. It was jut no longer worth the time investment for me, not to mention the subscription cost for the "privilege" of wading through message after message of "hey wanna buy my pics" and "I read in your profile that you don't want a platonic relationship, but I thought you might make an exception for me" bullshit.

Within a week of quitting SA, I was back in the clubs more frequently and had plenty of prospects.

@rick: what is the rough difference in amounts between meet and greet money and full date money?

@all: how many of you do ppm and how many do (what I perceive to be) the classic SB arrangement of a monthly or other regular allowance?

I'll answer Rick's question first: do not EVER agree to pay for a meet & greet, beyond covering her travel expenses. If she won't show up to the M&G without getting paid, she's usually either an escort, a scammer who learned to charge men for meet & greets and then ghost, or a "pro SB" who runs this as a business, and you want to avoid them. If she shows up and she's cool, IMO give her a $50 or hundo if you want to see her again. The critical thing is she shows up to the m&g without promise of a payoff.

Drew: very close to 100% of arrangements start with PPM these days. There are too many scammers to start out by giving some chick you've only met once at a meet & greet for dinner, thousands of dollars. It's a stupid move. Maybe 1 out of 50 girls will insist on allowance to start, skip them; pretty much everyone else is good with PPM. So almost everyone starts with PPM. Many, many arrangements just stay with PPM indefinitely, some transition to allowance after a few months.

Subraman beat me to it. I would pay for the coffee/lunch/dinner/drinks, not the M&G itself. I would, on occasion, give her some extra if she "was cool" and I got the impression that it would sway her decision.

@Sub/GMD: I hear you both regarding paying for M&Gs and I've seen the same comments countless other places as well, but tbh I'm comfortable with my approach. Keep in mind that, by the time I'm meeting her in person, I've screened her against the local escort databases, Googled her number as well and otherwise interacted with her enough to trust my gut. All of these years doing this same shit with OTC strippers has given me pretty good (though not perfect) instincts. If a girl makes it through all of that and still manages to get one over on me for the cost of dinner plus an extra Benji, then all power to her.

As I said before though, I only actually handed over a M&G payment once and she kept communicating with me after to setup a full date, but eventually I blocked her. I just didn't feel the chemistry. But she spent two hours out with me and was a pleasant companion, so I didn't mind. All the others rolled on into a full date.

If I was in a larger market though it would probably be a different story. The ability to screen against escort sites is an important part of how I do this, but that would be impractical in a larger market. In that instance I could definitely see a promise of paying something for a M&G to be leading face first.
To be clear, I've

Since no one answered this, I'll ask again; what the hell is "SA"?

The site currently known as seeking.com used to be called seekingarrangement.com, or SA. Lots of people still just call it SA.

The guys saying getting otc is easier than sa . . . clearly don't live in columbus ohio.