[OT] Bitcoin's Price, Modeled

^^ yes, but only for you. Whatever you do, Fun_loving... don't buy Bitcoin. Never ever ever :-)

Modeling a Ponzi Scheme. But it all depends on news representations and human response.

FTS, you are a smart guy, you must have better things you can do with your time.

SJG

Shot coins are real

Fuck you FTS

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Oh yes! Bitcoin is something I have owned before actually, and I've been an active member of their community since even though I haven't owned it in a couple of years. I got some in 2012 and sold it in 2014. Besides transactions I'd rather the government and/or my family not find out about what other use does bitcoin have? Also if it does have niche actual legal/moral uses I'd still be providing liquidity to people who use bitcoin to buy child porn on the dark web(not saying you do that FTS).

Yea, that's usually the first way people criticize Bitcoin.... "what about all the terrorists and child pornographers?" The fact is, more crime is committed with US dollars, which is harder to track. In fact, Bitcoin transactions are very easy to track! True, all of the transactions are encrypted, but if you can link a particular public key to a known individual then you can see all of the transactions that that individual made with that public key. This can be done with, for example, a free online tool called www.oxt.me. For example, there was a transaction made only about 8 hours ago that moved 1500 bitcoins (worth $12.2 million!). The chain of transactions can be visualized if you use the oxt.me tool. Check it out: https://oxt.me/graph/transaction/tiid/26…. You will see a blue dot. If you double-click on the blue dot then all of the transactions made pops out. Those transactions link to other transactions, which you can also double click. After several double-clicks you eventually get an enormous web of transactions, all of which are public and trackable! Zoom in, zoom out, it's actually kinda fun. You can literally track millions of dollars of value, and it's all public. Of course, there are no personal identification attached to these transactions... but if law enforcement can discovery your public key then it becomes very easy to track!

Compare that to paper bills. Col, hard cash. Much more difficult to track that shit. It's no wonder so many governments are trying to get rid of paper cash....

Shot coins are real

Another use case, which interests most people (including me), is the store of, and increase in, the value of Bitcoin. Scarcity alone is not what makes gold, diamonds, silver, etc. so valuable. Hell, if scarcity alone could make something valuable then 4 leaf clovers might be worth a decent amount of money! No, it's not merely scarcity that makes gold so valuable.. what makes it valuable is the fact that it's scarce and DIFFICULT TO CREATE. It's really fucking hard to make a pristine 1 oz coin of 99.999% pure gold. On the other hand, it's not that difficult to grow some clovers in the ground.

How hard is it to make a 100 US dollar bill? It's pretty damn difficult to counterfeit, that's for sure. And it's even more difficult to fraudulently increase your bank account balance by 100 dollars. That is.... it's difficult for me. And for you. And for Joe Schmoe. How hard is it for the central banks? Didn't they just expand bank reserves by $400 billion? I wonder how hard it is for them to make 100 dollars. I mean... they only did it 4 billion times in the last 4 months. Hmmm... how many seconds in a month?

So let's make a comparison: 4 leaf clovers, 100 dollar bills, gold coins, and bitcoins. Which one is more difficult to create? Does the FMOC have any inherent advantage in mining bitcoins?

Guess we'll just have to wait and see....

*FOMC

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Bitcoin does have a public ledger where transaction is viewable but what good does that do an everyday investor? Why should they care about that fact enough to invest so much money into it?

Also bitcoin being a finite resource, it can be forked an infinite amount of times. Its supply, through forking, is effectively limitless. Assuming bitcoin does last long enough eventually it will be forked.

Also have you heard of tether? Bitcoins price is heavily tied to it however tether can be printed at any moment without any oversight. Actually, the most recent price surge coincided with 500 million tethers being printed. I hope you consider coindesk a reliable resource for crypto news.
https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-climbs-…

These things are just too much for me to feel comfortable putting money into bitcoin.

Haha, looks like somebody did some Googling.

When bitcoin is forked, the forked chain becomes incompatible with the original; that's why it's a fork. It's like, when one element decays through radioactive decay into another element, a process called transmutation--they become totally different things. Bitcoin has already forked a couple times, but guess what... their forked versions aren't the original. They don't have the network, the mining power, the security, the popularity, that Bitcoin has. The Winklevoss twins aren't making multi-million dollar collaborations to build new Bitcoin Cash (a fork of Bitcoin) mining farms in Texas. No, they're building BITCOIN mining farms in Texas. Metal has different versions too... there's gold, silver, platinum, palladium, nickel, copper, etc. But... there's only one gold.

Yea, I've heard of Tether. IMO it's complicated how exactly Tether is related to Bitcoin. All I know is, there is real demand for Bitcoin. Every 10 minutes, a new block is created, and every 10 minutes, 12.5 Bitcoins are created. Miners have to sell a lot of the Bitcoins they get for mining, so they sell it on exchanges. If people weren't buying them up then the price would drop like a rock. But... every day for the past 11 years, it's still here. I also know that Bitcoin is getting more and more popular all around the globe, not just here in the US. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment… There's a loooooooooooot of people, all over the world, who want Bitcoin. From Africa, to Europe, to South America and Asia and Australia.

I wonder why they want it...

hahahahahahahahaha

I am really active in investing, strip clubbing can be very expensive. Since I invest a lot of my income I try to read up on different types of investments. I'm pretty active on r/Bitcoin and even anti crypto subreddits like r/buttcoin (subreddit that makes fun of crypto but they have some very good points sometimes).

Warren Buffet invested millions into Teva pharmaceuticals in 2019 and the price tanked. Just because some wealthy/smart people put money into something it doesn't mean it's a good investment.

I know your "I wonder why they want it..." is rhetorical but I also wonder why anyone would want it. I have no idea what use bitcoin has other than for transactions you dont want the government and/or your family knowing about. As of now the stripper I want won't accept .0185 bitcoin so I can finish in her mouth, and since I play alot of poker at the casino its easy to explain what happened with my money to my family. I dont want to make any other transactions that I want to hide.

"I know your 'I wonder why they want it...' is rhetorical but I also wonder why anyone would want it."

- So basically you didn't understand the rhetoric. That's okay, I expect you will eventually.

True I guess I should read up on rhetoric, thanks.

As for bitcoins actual use cases I only see it as transactions that people would like to hide from the government and/or loved ones which I have my own system for. That $12.2 mill worth of bitcoins that were moved kind of scares me though. Most of the time money changes hands it's a taxable event, so most likely the reason the transaction was made in bitcoin was to avoid paying taxes on some transaction (see my real use cases). I would like some accountability when things like this happen.

Arguing the ethics or the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is academic. It serves a purpose, is in demand, and can't be "shut off". You can either use it or not. Oh, and all transactions are viewable to every person on the planet via a public ledger.

It's totally fine and understandable that Bitcoin is very misunderstood, and that its use case is still questionable. Many Bitcoin enthusiasts and Bitcoin developers say that, as of right now, Bitcoin is kinda like the Internet in the early 90's. Here's an early- to mid-90's flash back about the internet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95-yZ-31… . Now, compare that video to this 60 minutes clip about Anderson Cooper trying to learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz_k3GYZ… . I'm guessing most of the guys on this forum were not internet pioneers, and you weren't sounding the alarm to your friends and family in 1990 that the internet would revolutionize society in the way that it clearly has by the year 2020. The smart guys figured it out, and jumped on it early, even in the dial-up days. "Dial-up was first offered commercially in 1992 by Pipex in the United Kingdom and Sprint in the United States." Here's when the biggest internet companies were founded: Amazon, July 1994; Netflix, August, 1997; Facebook, February, 2004; Paypal, December 1998; Google, September, 1998; Booking.com, 1996; Alibaba, April 1999.

The reality is this: 1) Bitcoin is here, it's an open-source network protocol just like internet, 2) Bitcoin and related technologies are being rapidly developed, 3) interest is growing exponentially around the world, so it's definitely not going away any time soon, 4) there's only so many Bitcoins to go around. Right now, 12.5 newly mined bitcoins are created every 10 minutes (1800 each day)... in a couple decades, that will be down to 20 or so new bitcoins each day. A couple decades after that, 1 or 2 new bitcoins each day.

IF Bitcoin is the future of money (admittedly, still a big "if"), and the entire financial industry competes over a few new bitcoins each day, how valuable will each bitcoin be? Let's take a look at gold (which isn't digital, it's a mineral humanity discovered millenia ago)... did you know that there are around 200,000 new ounces of gold mined EVERY DAY? One ounce of gold is about $1600 right now, despite the 199,999 other new ones that are created each day. How valuable would a bitcoin be if it became the preferred form of money for the entire planet, and every day there weren't 200,000 new ones, but just 1 or 2? I would venture to guess that it would be much more valuable than the current valuation of $8000. I would guess that it won't be merely 5% more valuable, or 50% more valuable, or 200% more valuable. I would guess more like... 200x more valuable.

So... if I buy just one bitcoin, then maybe, just maybe--if most Millenials and Gen Z, and whatever after that, decide they want to use bitcoins instead of dollars--my investment grows by 200x. If the technology dies and it's a failed experiment, then my investment goes to zero. So.... risk/reward, right? maybe it goes to zero.... or maybe everybody figures out what the Fed is doing, and they decide they want to use money that can't be debased, and my measly bitcoin becomes more valuable than is $1,000,000 in 2020.

You know what, you're right. The US stock market--at a current CAPE ratio equal to what it was at the height of the roaring 20's, right before the Great Depression--yea, way more potential upside in stocks, for sure. I'll just lay over and let the Fed debase my currency. What do I care? I don't want to be rich. I don't want extra wealth with which to spoil hot strippers. I just want to work for the man for the rest of my life............

Bitcoin is tha old wives tale about having a money tree in your yard.

"The US stock market--at a current CAPE ratio equal to what it was at the height of the roaring 20's, right before the Great Depression"

----------
Not sure about bitcoin -- but I sure agree with you about overpriced stocks.

Yea, that's usually the first way people criticize Bitcoin.... "what about all the terrorists and child pornographers?" The fact is, more crime is committed with US dollars, which is harder to track. In fact, Bitcoin transactions are very easy to track! True, all of the transactions are encrypted, but if you can link a particular public key to a known individual then you can see all of the transactions that that individual made with that public key. This can be done with, for example, a free online tool called www.oxt.me. For example, there was a transaction made only about 8 hours ago that moved 1500 bitcoins (worth $12.2 million!). The chain of transactions can be visualized if you use the oxt.me tool. Check it out: oxt.me. You will see a blue dot. If you double-click on the blue dot then all of the transactions made pops out. Those transactions link to other transactions, which you can also double click. After several double-clicks you eventually get an enormous web of transactions, all of which are public and trackable! Zoom in, zoom out, it's actually kinda fun. You can literally track millions of dollars of value, and it's all public. Of course, there are no personal identification attached to these transactions... but if law enforcement can discovery your public key then it becomes very easy to track!

Compare that to paper bills. Col, hard cash. Much more difficult to track that shit. It's no wonder so many governments are trying to get rid of paper cash....

^Set up an account on Coinbase.com

@Fun_Loving, I see no reason why you should be interested in learning about my preferred method. But, as it is quite inconsequential, I’ll tell you. I purchase bitcoins on one of the large exchanges (e.g. Kraken, Gemini, Coinbase, CEX.io, etc.). I transferred my purchased bitcoins to a cold storage bitcoin wallet, to which I am the only holder of the private keys.

Okay, just sent it to you.

If anybody else wants it, it’s abcdefg. Just type that in on your keyboard and you’ll have all my money.

Also, FYI, the final season of the HBO series Silicon Valley is about a company that launches a decentralized version of the internet. It seems decentralization is the hip new technology.

Isn’t there some digital currency that’s also decentralized? I forget, is it Mitcoin... or Itcoin... or FitCoin. Ah, who cares... it’s probably worthless.

I apologize if this comes off as rude but an HBO show about something doesn't mean that one thing is going to be a success. If HBO releases a show about mobsters it doesn't mean Americans will suddenly start doing drive by shootings.

Also a wealthy smart person (winklevoss twins) putting money into something (bitcoin) doesn't mean that one thing is going to be a success. See Warren Buffet into Teva Pharmaceuticals.

When I buy a stock that stock represents ownership in the company which has financial statements that have been audited . I can use those audited financials to determine if the stock is over or under priced. As of now stocks are overpriced most likely, but when everything is overpriced it just creates a new norm.

Also as for your mass adoption of IF(big if, if my aunt had a dick and balls she'd my uncle) millenials and gen z just forgo the dollar and use bitcoin..it goes back to my main question of why would they? What's the current issue with paper and plastic that they'd want to use pedo pesos, I mean bitcoin. I've been an active member of the bitcoin community for a couple of years and the only actual use case I can think of is transactions you want to hide from the government. Some people have said that it's supposed to be a digital store of value but its price is so volatile.

^^ I guess this entire thread is like a dirty joke told to an 8 year-old; it went right over your head.

Say hello to Jerome Powell for me, will ya?

Apologies if anything I said offended. I was mostly trying to prove the point that investments shouldn't be made on out there hypotheticals, such as millenials and gen z forgoing fiat in favor of bitcoin, by comparing it to my aunt who would theoretically not have a penis or balls. This analogy was made because millenials and gen z have no real use cases for bitcoin besides transactions they want to hide from the government. Investments also shouldn't be made by people you respect making the same ones either.

I do not have any contact with Jerome Powell nor have I ever had any contact with him, sorry.

Whoosh.

It appears as if I missed another jokez apologies again. It is difficult to distinguish between parody and true beliefs when it comes to something like bitcoin. Wish you the best of luck.

Say hello to Jared from Subway for me.

I did say hello to Jared. He said Bitcoin is the future.

Enjoy your paper money.

Jared from subway is bitcoins target market, completely reasonable to think he'd think it is the future. I shall enjoy my paper funbucks I hope you enjoy your digital pedo pesos.

Shows how much you know, bitcoin doesn’t have a target market. I’m sure you’ll figure it out eventually.

Well besides doing transactions anonymously you'd rather the government not find out about what else is bitcoin better than fiat for?

FTS, bit coin is just a ponzi scheme. You are far too smart of a person to be spending your time thinking about it.

SJG

Wow that link came put weird, it's an article about bitcoin SV price manipulation

Okay. Is there a point to that? Again, Bitcoin SV and Bitcoin are different. This thread is about Bitcoin.

^^^^^ FTS, you are far too smart to be concerning yourself with such drivel.

SJG

The Politics of Bitcoin: Software as Right-Wing Extremism (2016)

https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Bitcoin-…

https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Bitcoin-…

SJG

I.e. idiocy in a book.

Bitcoin is an Extreme Right Wing initiative. This should be obvious!

SJG

Yea, it's founded on libertarian principles... which means it's right. I agree with that!

Libertarian principles? There is no such thing. Libertarianism is just a scam to promote Social Darwinism.

The Politics of Bitcoin: Software as Right-Wing Extremism
David Golumbia
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M22…

From the book's back cover:

Since its introduction in 2009, Bitcoin has been widely promoted as a digital currency that will revolutionize everything from online commerce to the nation-state. Yet supporters of Bitcoin and its blockchain technology subscribe to a form of cyberlibertarianism that depends to a surprising extent on far-right political thought. The "Politics of Bitcoin" exposes how much of the economic and political thought on which this cryptocurrency is based emerges from ideas that travel the gamut, from Milton Friedman, F. A. Hayek, and Ludwig von Mises to Federal Reserve conspiracy theorists.

SJG

Gnosticism as a Viable Political Movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVIjBejt…

Hey SJG, I have you muted, but I still logout sometimes to read your comments in this thread. With that said.... you're kind of an idiot. Go away.

no offense.

FTS, you are the one who is posting bullshit, worrying yourself about something like BitCoin.

SJG

I guess the people over at Fidelity Investments Inc. are right wing extremists also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment…

Either that, or SJG is just an idiot...

Telling people to put money into Bitcoin, yes that is stupidity being used to promote a Right Wing agenda.

It is disgusting that things like this have ever gotten going in our country.

SJG

The Politics of Bitcoin: Software as Right-Wing Extremism (2016)
p2

"
Dogma propagated almost exclusively by far-right groups like the Liberty League, the John Birch Society, the militia movment, and the Tea Party, conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones and David Icke, and to a lesser extent rightist outlets like the Fox media group and some right-wing politicians, was now being repeated by many who seemed not to know the origin of the ideas, or the function of these ideas in contemporary politics.
"

And then just look at the present situation, going beyond 30 years into the Reagan, now Trump's, supply side economic fraud, so we have an obviously smart guy like FTS, a guy who could be working on things which actually serve our society's needs. But instead he seems only interested in a stupid Ponzi Scheme!

SJG

Yeah bitcoin is pretty right wing. There are some left leaning people who enjoy it but right wingers like it due to the power bitcoin has of unregulated transactions.

I also promotes a right wing political agenda, as it undermines our economy and our society.

SJG

Lol all you "Right Wing" "Left Wing" yahoos make me LOL. Bitcoin is completely non-political to USA politics.

Have your fun trying to pin the tail on the donkey for your misunderstanding.

Bit Coin is a lethal attack on our political and economic system.

SJG

https://beincrypto.com/bitcoin-designed-…

I just googled bitcoin political leanings and this was the first article not behind a paywall, feel free to post links to articles that contradicts that bitcoin is mostly used by right wingers.

Also something to note, Trump thinks bitcoin is stupid so I think it's mostly fringe right wingers who think taxes infringe on human rights.

There is a problem in trying to pin down Bitcoin, in trying to fit into a particular category. The problem is that Bitcoin is so new, so novel, it can’t be categorized. This has been written about on Forbes, here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/spencerboga…

So, I think it is misguided to try to categorize Bitcoin in legacy terminology: right wing, left wing, currency, commodity, tech platform, etc. Bitcoin is its own category. Both liberals and conservatives love it or hate it. Liberals for the freedom from government control and, conservatives for the privacy and potential for sound money.

The big problem is that so many people, including those on this discussion board, are quick to dismiss Bitcoin, for one reason or another. Maybe they heard somebody call it a fraud (Jamie Dimon) and they are appealing to authority and delegating their responsibility to perform due diligence to some authority figure that they’ve never met. So many people are just downright LAZY, and they don’t bother to do the work to learn how the technology works, and what the potential impact could be. People don’t want to put in the work to read, to learn, to study, to analyze. “Look here, I found a book on Amazon that says it’s a right wing thing. It must be true. Herr dee deeerrrr.” Garbage. I would love to see just one person, other than me, post a full, concise and accurate description of how Bitcoin actually works. Until then, I don’t really take anything that anybody writes seriously. Why should I? Does anybody else here really know how Bitcoin works? How to use it? How to secure Bitcoin funds in a cold wallet?

End Rant

At the end of the day Bitcoin is a scam designed to attract suckers.

^ and that’s political how?

If I write something out that explains how bitcoin works you'll just say I googled it. If I dont then you'll think I dont like bitcoin because I don't understand it. Could it be possible I understand bitcoin and flat out just dont like it?

R/bitcoin had a tagline that reads "A large percentage of Bitcoin enthusiasts are libertarians, though people of all political philosophies are welcome." And you think bitcoin doesn't have political leanings? This is coming from somewhere you yourself linked to.

I've been an active member of r/bitcoin and r/buttcoin for years. I think I do have a solid grasp on it I just like fiat more. Bitcoin would solve some problems but it would raise alot more.

“If I write something out that explains how bitcoin works you'll just say I googled it. If I dont then you'll think I dont like bitcoin because I don't understand it.”

- I have google too. Using google to learn isn’t a shortcut... copying and pasting would be a shortcut. If you write it out in your own words, from your own understanding, then there is almost zero chance that I will find the same description when I copy paste your description into google. I could also ask follow up questions that aren’t easy to find on google. But I don’t really give two shits what you do.

Also, it would be unreasonable and unfair for me to say that you don’t like Bitcoin BECAUSE you don’t understand it. I don’t fully understand how my smartphone works, but I still like it. Rather, I would make the argument that you CAN’T have a strong opinion about it, for or against, if you have neither used it nor understood it. The conversation would basically be this:
“I don’t like it.”
“What is it?”
“I don’t know.”
“So how do you know you don’t like it if you don’t know what it is?”

It’s like... what the fuck are we even talking about? I have a decent understanding of what it is we’re talking about because I’ve studied it and used it. But, does the average Joe Schmoe know? No.

PS The argument has been made that Henry Ford would have been a supporter of Bitcoin. In fact, he promoted energy-backed currency before it was even a thing: https://link.medium.com/wAgdGwalu3

^^^^^ BitCoin is a direct attack on our democracy. It is tragic that a smart guy like FTS isn't busy working on other stuff, better stuff, REAL STUFF, instead of the bullshit that is BitCoin.

SJG

Warning-My definition of bitcoin is going to be based on why I dont like it.

Bitcoin is decentralized so it doesn't run from one server, because of this user's computers are used to process transactions. In exchange for using user's computers bitcoin rewards them by giving them some bitcoin, this is called mining. This mining uses alot of electricity and this is before mass adoption, you could imagine the electricity usage when more people use it. https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/technology-…

Because it is decentralized it is impossible to police bitcoin transactions. This means the government has no oversight on it and can't block certain transactions would be common on the dark web. Elon musk even says that bitcoins only use case is transactions you would like to hide frhttpsom the govt. And he's been saying that since 2014.
www.forbes.com/sites/ktorpey/2020/01/23/…

I am vehemently opposed to dark web transactions. Of course alot of people who dont like the government telling them what they can or can't purchase get pissed about that (libertarians). Which is why alot of people say bitcoin is a right wing tool.

^^^^^^ !!!

SJG

Well, at least you were able to write something....

Welcome to Who's Bitcoin is it Anyway, where nothing is made up, but it's okay because the points don't matter. CTLennay..... You get one point for using the word "decentralized." However, you lose one point for mischaracterizing the mining process*. You get a half point for identifying the government's lack of control, but you lose half a point for saying the government has no oversight**.

Congratulations, your score is zero. Coulda been dozens of points if you tried harder. Thanks for playing.

* Any given individual is not required to mine bitcoins in order for that individual to use Bitcoin. Your description seems to conflate the concepts of mining and general usage of the Bitcoin network. The fact is, mining is a distinct process. The entire globe CAN use Bitcoin, and that DOESN'T mean everybody is mining bitcoins; far from it. An increase in user adoption does not necessitate increases in energy consumption by mining activity.
** While the dictionary definition of the word "oversight" often implies some type of managerial activity, and therefore control, it could easily be interpreted as literally "over"-"sight", i.e. seeing over the network activity. Interpreted this way, the statement "the government has no oversight" would be false. In fact, the government can very easily trace the movement of Bitcoins and track the activity of any and all public keys. Therefore, if the government associates your identity with your public keys / addresses, then the government can monitor all of your transactions. This is why Bitcoin is often referred to as a pseudonymous network, and not a totally anonymous one.

But why FTS, an obviously bright guy, don't you have more important areas to apply your time and talents?

SJG

Also, for quality information on Bitcoin's mining activity and energy consumption : https://coinsharesgroup.com/assets/resou…

From their conclusion: "Finally, using a combination of estimates of global mining locations and regional renewables penetrations we again calculate the Bitcoin mining industry to be heavily renewables-driven. Our current approximate percentage of renewable power generation in the Bitcoin mining energy mix stands at 74.1%, more than four times the global average. This estimate is marginally lower than our November 2018 estimate of 77.8%, reflecting the upstart of major mining clusters in fossil dependent regions such as Iran as well as relocation away from hydro-dependent regions such as Oregon. Overall, our findings reaffirm our view that Bitcoin mining is acting as a global electricity buyer of last resort and therefore tends to cluster around comparatively under-utilised renewables infrastructure. This could help turn loss making renewables projects profitable and in time—as the industry matures and settles as permanent in the public eye—could act as a driver of new renewables developments in locations that were previously uneconomical. "

But BitCoin is just a ponzi scheme, why do you FTS even consider it twice?

SJG

Page 8
"Our main assumption is that miners, wherever
they are located, utilise the same mix of power
generation (fossil/nuclear or renewable) as the
average reported in their region."

So the writers are saying bitcoin is heavily renewables focused because the electricity in the region they are mined is heavily renewables focused and they want to use that as a pro to bitcoin? Lol.

Warning-My definition of bitcoin is going to be based on why I dont like it.

Bitcoin is decentralized so it doesn't run from one server, because of this user's computers are used to process transactions. Mining is not required to own bitcoin. In exchange for using user's computers bitcoin rewards them by giving them some bitcoin, this is called mining. This mining uses alot of electricity and this is before mass adoption, you could imagine the electricity usage when more people use it. www.bbc.com

Because it is decentralized it is impossible to police bitcoin transactions. This means the government has no control over it and can't block certain transactions would be common on the dark web. Elon musk even says that bitcoins only use case is transactions you would like to hide from the govt. And he's been saying that since 2014.
www.forbes.com

I am vehemently opposed to dark web transactions. Of course alot of people who dont like the government telling them what they can or can't purchase get pissed about that (libertarians). Which is why alot of people say bitcoin is a right wing tool.

If we allow transactions to be separated from the enforcement of taxation then powerful business interests will come to control the wealth, the land, and the labor supply. This is how it has gone in most every historic society. But it will be all the more so in our society of extreme material surplus where labor has no intrinsic economic value.

SJG

As it is now, decades of Supply Side and New Economy doctrine in play, our society does not create enough opportunities for bright people, otherwise someone like FTS could be doing some really great stuff, rather than worrying about some idiocy like BitCoin.

SJG

"they want to use that as a pro to bitcoin? Lol."

- I don't think they were intending to use that as a... "pro".... to bitcoin. To quote the research paper: "This document does not contain, or purport to be, financial promotion(s) of any kind.... The purpose of this document is to provide objective, educational and interesting commentary and analysis in connection with Bitcoin Mining."

Again, you seem to think that more adoption, more usage = more electricity from mining activity. That is just plain incorrect. It is probably true that large increases in user adoption creates additional incentive that motivates more mining activity, but that is not a feature of Bitcoin! That's a feature of human greed! If people wanna mine for Bitcoin, they're gonna mine! Nothing you can do about it, buddy, and nothing in the Bitcoin code that says they have to do it. Also... why do you write, "In exchange for using user's computers bitcoin rewards them by giving them some bitcoin?" First of all, it seems you misused the apostrophe. Second... who is "them?" The users? The miners? Whose computers do what now? How many bitcoins? What is the fundamental operation that is performed during mining? Why is it important? How is it related to security? Isn't there some cryptography involved in cryptocurrencies? I think you can do better than this!

Also, as I said previously, it seems you are delegating your due diligence to an authority figure... wait, scratch that, you are delegating your due diligence to an engineer / tech entrepreneur who has no expertise in this particular technology. Elon can talk all he wants in theoretical terms, but he obviously hasn't learned about how Bitcoin is used by law abiding citizens every single day. If people are using it legally, every day, then it must have a use case other than concealing transactions!

1/2 point for a correction. But, you also lose 1/2 point--I forgot to mention that, actually, decentralization alone is not what makes it impossible to be policed; there is another feature, another "d" word, that is also needed.

Zero points. Thanks for playing (again).

I've been trading bitcoin since 2014 P2P cash and other payment methods. If you look at the low price each year, it has increased in value nearly every year.

Do you expect all of these in a definition of bitcoin? Any time someone asks you what bitcoin is do you really answer all of these questions or do you give a basic overview? Lol. If a coworker asked me what bitcoin was I'd give that explanation. If they have more questions I'd answer it. What would you say if a boomer coworker asked you what it was? I'm not sure you'll get more converts if you jumped straight into the inner workings immediately.

You say "more usage = more electricity from mining activity. That is just plain incorrect." Then you give examples of how that's wrong sentences later lol. I thought libertarians factor in human greed into everything.

Simply put if bitcoin didn't exist that electricity would never have been used in the first place. Saying bitcoin uses 70%+ renewable energy means the areas bitcoin is mined uses 70%+ renewable energy. Same information but if you were trying to convert someone to bitcoin which would you prefer to use?

I'm also sorry for quoting Elon Musk, I did it mostly because you were linking other people who were successful to prove a point just because they think one way about bitcoin it isn't right. You used the winklevoss twins as a pro to bitcoin so I guess we can scratch that off as a pro. I will refrain from citing successful people's opinion on bitcoin if you do the same and we can focus on bitcoin itself. Either way the main point of it's only practical use is illegal activities still stands.

There are transactions that are made legally using bitcoin however they are taxable since the IRS considers it as you selling bitcoin for cash. How many people actually follow that? If you dont, you are breaking a law.

@max bubbles can happen such as beanie babies and the tulip bubble. However, bitcoin is alot more useful than them in dark web transactions so perhaps this isn't a bubble. However I'd rather not be involved in something that supports dark web transactions.

Also I'd rather not get into grammar, however, you yourself make mistakes like using "gonna" and "wanna". This is the last I'd like to speak on grammar because it really adds nothing to the main topic.

While browing r/bitcoin I happened across this thread about someone trying to hide away his bitcoin. To your point about the govt being able to catch people buying horrible reprehensible things on the dark web., there are work arounds to tracking bitcoins. Who knows what this guy is about to buy and/or who or what was harmed in the creation of that content :(.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment…

If the feds really want to, they can use banks and banks of CPU's and decode whatever they want and track you bitcoin moves.

It really is pointless.

SJG

"Do you expect all of these in a definition of bitcoin? Any time someone asks you what bitcoin is do you really answer all of these questions or do you give a basic overview? Lol. If a coworker asked me what bitcoin was I'd give that explanation. If they have more questions I'd answer it."

- Maybe not all of them. And, technically, I didn't ask for a definition; I believe my exact words were, "a full, concise and accurate description of how Bitcoin actually works." Admittedly a semantic point, but that's neither here nor there because you didn't even provide a good definition of bitcoin. The fact is, you didn't mention ANY of the innovations introduced by Satoshi Nakamoto, or by those who preceded him as they tried to develop a digital currency. There are some very specific concepts that you didn't even hint at. What you described has as much in common with Bitcoin as does an Excel spreadsheet. Go onto r\Bitcoin and try telling people that Bitcoin is basically a shared Excel spreadsheet, I can only imagine the reaction you'll get.

I had some free time on my hands, so to demonstrate this point I actually went ahead and programmed an Excel spreadsheet that is pretty darn close to what you actually described. It's called ShitCoin.xlsm, you can download it here: https://mega.nz/#!B0w2zYxI . It's actually better than what you described because this program doesn't use a lot of electricity. It's only 90 lines of code, took me about an hour to write (and I'm not a programmer by profession). And it does just as you describe: users' computers are used to process transactions and it uses users' computers and rewards them by giving them some ShitCoins. If you put it in a shared location and let a limited number of users edit it, then it's decentralized. Is this spreadsheet worth hundreds of billions of dollars of value, like Bitcoin is? No. Maybe EXCEL is worth lots of money, but not this specific spreadsheet.

Teaching Bitcoin to people is not an easy task and there is no such thing as a basic overview. I mean... think about this: They're called "cryptocurrencies." Did you even write anything about cryptography in your description? The one root word that is actually IN THE NAME, you failed to mention. How can you think that you came even close to getting it right? That's like trying to describe baseball without mentioning bases and balls. Impossible. If you give that explanation to a coworker then you would do him/her a disservice.

-----------------------------

"You say 'more usage = more electricity from mining activity. That is just plain incorrect.' Then you give examples of how that's wrong sentences later lol."

- Dude, no. Please read more carefully. It is not at all obvious that energy consumption from mining will continue to grow indefinitely. The mining industry has matured considerably, and because of this it is very competitive. It takes a lot of startup capital to just break-even in the Bitcoin mining industry, so to think that its energy consumption is just automatically going to grow at the same growth rate as user adoption is not at all obvious. Plus, new hardware is always being developed to make the mining process more energy-efficient.

----------------------------

"I'm also sorry for quoting Elon Musk, I did it mostly because you were linking other people who were successful to prove a point just because they think one way about bitcoin it isn't right. You used the winklevoss twins as a pro to bitcoin so I guess we can scratch that off as a pro. I will refrain from citing successful people's opinion on bitcoin if you do the same"

- That's fine with me. But, just to set the record straight... I didn't cite the Winklevoss twins in order to promote bitcoin (i'm not really sure that that would even be considered a promotion). If you go back and look at the context, I mentioned the twins mining operation as an example of how Bitcoin is a completely seperate entity from its forked counterparts. It wasn't like I was saying, "look at what the Winklevoss twins say/do, Bitcoin must be good." Rather, just arguing the point that Bitcoin is separate from the forked projects by providing an example. Next time I'll just say "people" instead of [famous person].

-----------------------------

"There are transactions that are made legally using bitcoin however they are taxable since the IRS considers it as you selling bitcoin for cash. How many people actually follow that? If you dont, you are breaking a law."

- For the record, I did pay taxes on my gains. I had to fill out about 4 sheets of some IRS form just to give a record of all my crypto transactions.

-------------------------------

"While browing r/bitcoin I happened across this thread about someone trying to hide away his bitcoin. To your point about the govt being able to catch people buying horrible reprehensible things on the dark web., there are work arounds to tracking bitcoins. Who knows what this guy is about to buy and/or who or what was harmed in the creation of that content."

- Bad people are going to do bad things. That's just a fact of nature. Some animals eat their own offspring. I'm reminded of the debate about gun violence and gun ownership rights. The big difference being, of course, that digital stuff can't harm anybody, whereas guns are definitely lethal. I hope you understand the argument that you're making: somebody used some digital money to buy something that might have been created by harming somebody, so the digital money is bad.

So... are you okay with the millions of people who lost their homes during the financial crisis, brought about by centralized manipulation of money? You okay with drug cartels that use dollars? The terrorists that use dollars? Are you okay with the internet? Cuz, you know, if there were no internet then there wouldn't be a dark web. Why are you using the internet, buddy? Don't you know that the internet is the source of the dark web? WHY ARE YOU PROMOTING THE DARK WEB BY USING THE INTERNET? THE INTERNET IS EVIL! See, I can do it too, and it makes no more sense when I write it than it does when you write it.

Why haven't you mentioned anything about the potential good that Bitcoin can provide to billions of unbanked people in undeveloped or underdeveloped nations? Why haven't you mentioned the people in Argentina who are surviving hyperinflation in 2020 by using Bitcoin? Why did you mention that reddit thread and not something like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comment… .

We need to get that money which is inflating the stock and real estate markets back into circulation, so that there can be real jobs for our bright young people. We don't want them being corrupted by non-sense like BitCoin.

SJG

Sorry I've been kind of busy- I'll give a more detailed response when I can. There are definitely pros with bitcoin and yes alot of illegal activities occur in other payments too, but bitcoins is the preferred method of use for dark web transactions among people who do not need to meet face to face. If you use cash and meet face to face to purchase illegal things there's much more risk involved than dark web bitcoin transactions. Cash also doesn't scale as well as bitcoin for purchasing terrible content on the dark web.

But the idea of using bitcoin as an "investment", that just means getting into a Ponzi Scheme.

SJG

Humble Pie-30 Days In The Hole
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdXjm8pZ…

Frampton, Do You Feel Like We Do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0wVJE3V…

SJG's Photo Album
https://tuscl.net/photos.php?member_id=4…

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeldelc…

“Jack Dorsey-Backed Lightning Labs Raises $10 Million To Build Visa Network For Bitcoin.”

So, I guess all these millionaires and billionaires who invested in building the Lightning Network, and the 4,000 developers who helped build the Network, are all idiots? I mean... Bitcoin is just for terrible dark web transactions. It’s for drug dealers and pornographers. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, guys! Making a network for Bitcoin transactions that is as fast and as powerful as VISA.... that will be a disaster!

“ Carlson says the reason Venezuelans spend bitcoin is because the pain of using such an unstable currency outweighs the difficulty of spending bitcoin. But as projects like Lightning take off, which make spending bitcoin easier, that pain threshold will lower, making spending more likely. “Looking at the size of lightning specifically and bitcoin more broadly, it still feels so huge of an untapped area that I think it’s one of the few venture opportunities where we could see the 1,000X growth that we’re looking for,” Carlson says.”

- I guess all those Venezuelans are evil drug dealers and pornographers, because there is obviously no way that Bitcoin is actually useful for anything other than dark web transactions, riiiiggghhhhttttt???????

Whatever you do......... Don’t. Buy. Bitcoin.

😄

^^^^ This is why we need a sound economic expansion plan, so that smart people don't end up applying their talent and abilities to things like BitCoin.

We should name BitCoin after Bernie Madoff.

SJG

So I completely forgot about this thread but bitcoins recent price surge reminded me of it...

Once again I'll say as a member of a stable country bitcoin is useless for me unless I want to do illegal transactions.

I dont really care if bitcoin can be used by Venezuelans because they dont trust their own currency. Do you think bitcoin will still be used when it's more stable?

I'm sorry, I don't know what this "Bitcoin" thing is. CTLennay, you seem to have made up your mind about Bitcoin, so you must know what Bitcoin is. Please teach me, what is Bitcoin? Please teach me what it is, and how it works, and how to use it, and how bitcoins are created. You must know all these things................ right?

:-)

You are incorrect if you think I've made up my mine on bitcoin. I've done my extensive research and feel very confident in thinking its either overpriced and/or my morals would stop me from getting involved in it. The biggest thing holding me back is real use cases for me where bitcoin would be better than fiat or plastic. The only true use case for someone in a stable aestern country is illegal transactions.

As for what bitcoin is and how its created...etc, there are plenty of YouTube videos on it. The one below seems perfect.
https://youtu.be/41JCpzvnn_0

^^^Don't like it then don't buy it or use it.

Arguing the ethics of bitcoin on the basis of traceability are like arguing the ethic of owning a briefcase full of cash. It's untraceable too just allot clunkier.

Yes, admittedly I have an intense dislike of bitcoin after all of my research on it. Bitcoin has much higher scale to sell abhorrent content than a suitcase of cash. If someone wanted to buy dispicable videos with cash they'd have to meet someone face to face. With crypto it is super easy and much less risky. It is an undeniable fact that crypto makes it easier to make those purchases.

I have enough dislike of crypto that I unironically enjoy debating with people who are pro crypto. I feel as if humanity as a whole would benefit if it didn't exist, and wholesomely enjoy listing off reasons not to buy it. I know I most likely won't change anyone who it pro crypto's mind but if even one person doesn't purchase because a pedo peso because of my warnings I am happy.

That's cool. Pro crypto guys like me are happy too. Win win!

There is no record at all with cash transactions. The Public Ledger records all bitcoin transactions (albeit anonmously). But if someone thinks that those electronic transactions cannot be traced then they may be in for a big surprise if they are doing something pretty scetchy . Silk Road was closed on this false assumption. These days there are even companies offering the trace service on the market for LEO.

https://bitcoinist.com/yes-your-bitcoin-…

People don't have enough outlets for their brain power, that they want to waste it on BitCoin?

SJG

Bitcoin can become anonymous through the use of bitcoin mixers.

I hate deflationary currencies too. I can either talk more about it here or you can watch this one minute video on why deflationary currencies are bad. (Bitcoin is a deflationary currency)
https://youtu.be/ouNKQ1OUnwc

Why dont you ask the dancers you give $ to if they properly declare their income to the IRS, etc. for transparency. After all its your untraceable cash.

You also love fiat money and inflation. Congratulations. The excessive manipulation of fiat currency is why bitcoin was born in 2008. It was not created to hide transactions.

Gold, Platinum, Silver, etc... have existed as currencies long before your hated bitcoin.

If bitcoin had a nice pair of decentralized tits maybe i wouldn't be so butthurt about it. And I know this sounds super nerdy but I have actually already asked some dancers if they declare the money they make dancing (all that I've asked don't). I am actually super passionate about taxes :).

As for inflationary vs deflationary currency. That's just a difference of "opinion". But inflation and debt is perfectly ok. I understand why people would think its scary, this increased access to loans to purchase assets bas strengthened the economy. Yes there were cons to it in 2008, but the overall system is good. You have to remember it hasn't been around that long in modern terms and we are still getting the kinks out of it. Tearing it down to go to crypto is trading in one problem for a thousand more.

You Can't Cheat An Honest Man
https://www.amazon.com/YOU-CANT-CHEAT-HO…

SJG

Jimi Hendrix Live Full Concert 1969 AMAZING Clear Footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPrAg3sX…

@Uprightcitizen, I don't think CTLennay is the type to be convinced. He seems like the type of controlling person who would watch "V for Vendetta" and think that the only good guy in the movie is the Chancellor. IMO, better to gradually adopt Bitcoin along with the rest of the world and let the stubborn, controlling people deal with the consequences of their inaction. We all know Bitcoin can't be shut down... all we have to do is wait.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1103…

SJG

Bitcoiners are the type of people who think it's ok for establishments to deny service based on religion or sexuality. There was a time when it was a mainstream idea that it was ok to deny service based on race. If that makes me controlling then so be it. When you live in a democracy you have to accept the decision of the masses. Yes, this means if (MASSIVE if considering all of bitcoins issues)America decides to adopt bitcoin I'll also accept it. Luckily I own real estate and my parents have a paid off home they can also sell if the worst case scenario happens.

Bitcoiners are also the type of people who think the revolutionary war against Britain was about high taxes when it was about taxation without representation. We have representation now, we have avenues to change laws. Taxation is not theft. If you dont like it vote in someone who will lower taxes., they would have to cut programs that are more popular than the taxes people pay.

It speaks ill of this country that seemingly smart people take any interest in BitCoin. Think of all the brain power which is being wasted.

SJG