I loved you so fucking much...

IGU, I have to disagree with your comment that "nothing can become permanent because of my age." I'm proof that isn't true. In my case it did become permanent. Except that the "it" may not turn out to be what you think you want. "It" might be better. Mine is.

Evilcyn, why aren't there more dancers like you? You sound like what I look for and rarely find - a dancer who is a real person and treats me like I am too.

John, short answer to your original question. "am I a god. or a loser..."

LOSER!

ClifBar: He can and will be more pathetic, that's why all his ATFs tire of him and his neediness.

As a married dancer, who doesn't hand out strippershit, I don't know what to tell you...Most dancers are bullshitters, and will bullshit anyone they think they can make money off of... Telling guys I am happily married does lose me some money, but hey, I am there to dance, not find love or a sugardddy..
You must like drama, as others have said, otherwise you wouldn't keep going back for more..
We have a guy at my club who gets angry everytime he asks me if I am still married, and then will not talk to me because I won't lie to him..

When are you going to admit to yourself that you love the drama, that's what it's all about for you. I'm the same way. A main reason I started going to clubs regularly is because my life was on too even a keel (read boring) and I wanted more highs. But guess what goes with more highs - more lows. If you can't handle the lows, forget the highs, they go together, two sides of the same coin.

FONDL: You know me too well. By this time tomorrow I will be right in the middle of the drama and I should be on the HIGH side.

Yeah, you're flaming alright John! A real Dramaqueen.

Drama, drama, go away, come back some boring day.
:)

Sorry, couldn't stay off this thread, sounded like someone was having a senior moment talking to themselves. :)
Just joking of course.

casualguy: You have no idea how close to the truth you are. Generous portions of alchold helped. I wish I could withdraw the post but the damage has already been done and I wouldn't ask founder for help.

IGU...wish I could be down there to hang with you, but you know what I'm doing...give me a couple of weeks to get some time off.

evilcyn, your story reminds me of a time I was sitting in a regular bar or nightclub and suddenly started getting questioned by a girl I didn't know out of the blue. She kept telling me I must be married. I told her no. Anyway she kept insisting for so long, that I just gave up and told her yes, (I lied.) Then she finally left. hmmm, my memory is too vague now to remember what she looked like. I think I'll remember not to lie if she looks decent. Now that I think about it, she didn't leave right away after I said I was married. I must be a good liar. :)

By the way I didn't always lie so quickly. I once had a roomate in college with at least 8 girlfriends, someone said 23 but I didn't believe that. He sometimes had me answer the phone and would direct me as to what to say. The funniest stunt he pulled was to save on the expensive long distance. He called a girl up, then said our fire alarm just went off. Call me back in 5 minutes.

The above post was for a time before cell phones were too common. In dorm suites we only had one landline room phone. I actually liked it better when we had only one suite phone (for 4 rooms about 8 guys). We just had visiting girls answer the phone for our suite all the time. I probably wouldn't have remembered that except someone asked me what kind of guys dorm has a girl answer the phone all the time.

back on topic,

let the senior moment topic continue...

OK, IGU, here's my take on love, for what it's worth. I think every love is different, no two are alike. I think you can love a person or love your fantasy of that person (even though I think it's all fantasy, but let's not go there again.) I think the love of a close friend is one of life's special treats and maybe the best love of all.

And I've noticed that love and like don't always go together - just because you love someone doesn't meant that you will like them (which is why divorce is so common) or vice versa. But when the two are together, POW, it doesn't get any better than that. And as with almost anything else in life, love is a decision - you do or don't love someone because that's what you've decided to do. And love also takes hard work, it doesn't happen by accident, nor does it sustain itself.

The enemy of love is ego. Loving someone means giving up your ego. It means putting their happiness and well being ahead of your own. If you can't or aren't willing to do that, you'll never experience what love is all about. And love often springs from need - you choose to love someone because they fill an important need that in you and vice versa. And you have to love yourself before you can love anyone else.

And love and sex are two totally different things, sometimes they go together and sometimes they don't. And sometimes they interfere with each other. So love without sex may be the best love of all, but most of you are to young to realize that yet. I only recently learned it myself, from my ATF of course. How can someone her age teach someone my age so much? I think she has a very old soul.

One other point, to FONDL's wise comments. Establishing a love is as much an issue of "tricks" or, to put it less cynically, of social skills, as it is an issue of actually finding a compatible partner. You can spend your whole life meeting compatible people and never hooking up with them, if you don't have a certain set of socially mildly manipulative techniques that would cause them to being to notice you.

Oops, correction: "being to notice you" ... I meant "begin to notice you."

BG, there are no tricks or social skills required, other than the courage to be yourself and to be a friend. That last is key - in order to have a friend you have to be a friend. That's how I became friends with my ATF, I assumed that we were friends and acted accordingly. And once she realized that I was for real she reciprocated. But it took awhile.

Most people wait for the other person to make the first move. But love doesn't work that way, you have to give love - unconditionally - to get love, which is the opposite of tricks and manipulation. I sense that you're reluctant to take that risk, that you'd rather be lonely than risk getting hurt.

Hahahah ... "be yourself." That works great for Pierce Brosnan and Brad Pitt.

I learned a LONG time ago that I'm MUCH happier when I stop "being myself" and start being someone whose company, and initiatory skills, are appreciated by other people. To "be myself" would be, to sit on my thumbs and twiddle them and bemoan my outcast state. To "be someone else" includes making approaches, being friendly in an outward manner, making someone else's day a little brighter ...

Har. "Just be yourself and I'm sure some girl would be very lucky to have you as a boyfriend." What hot chicks tell the drippy "best friend, never a lover" types of guys they'd never date.

BG, the trouble with not bing yourself is that sooner or later it gets you in trouble. If your relationship is based on a lie, it won't last long.

As I said earlier, the first step is to love yourself. Sounds to me that you haven't cleared that hurdle yet.

Naw, I'm perfectly happy with who I am. Women aren't, but *I* am ...

OK OK, that was a flippant silly comment. (And I should have said, "I'm perfectly happy with who I am. OTHER people aren't, but *I* am ...". That would have really made the point.)

I get your point, FONDL, and I certainly wasn't advocating that any human relationship of the "real" sort should be based on a lie. (Although, to beg the question, what normal relationship isn't? We are all of us trying to put our best foot forward rather than our schleppiest and least desirable. I bathe every day, for example ... ) I do think that there's a way to "be yourself" and not engender the interest of attractive women; and a way to "be yourself" and also gather unto yourself people whom you happen to value, or even people who can give you something you value, such as furtherance of your career or love life. I haven't managed the latter, yet. Perhaps you have. Doesn't mean we aren't both of us BOTH "loving myself" and "being myself".

BookGuy:
You are way too hard on yourself, and probably have a very unrealistic view of how others perceive you. Afterall, you are one of the top posters on this board, based on which posters have something that I would want to read. You are articulate and have a good sense of humor...

Seriously, as Fondl said, if you are not yourself, it can (and probably will) come back to haunt you. When you think about it, if you are acting more extroverted, for example, are you really acting? You are just choosing not to just "sit on your thumbs", right? It's still you.

If you have the attitude that you can't be liked if you are being yourself, you are probably putting up a wall around you and are making yourself appear standoff-ish.

I'm also a quiet guy, and am not of the casanova-type ilk. But, I have dated some pretty girls in my life - and have been married to one for almost 22 years.

In my highschool years, I didn't date that much for a few reasons - the biggest reason is that I felt like I wasn't good enough to go after the really hot girls that I drooled after, and those that showed me that I had a chance with them were usually those that I wasn't interested in. But there were a few (some pretty hot) that I DID get the courage to ask out (only because I was pretty sure the answer would be yes), and my success rate was pretty high.

In retrospect, I sort'a built a wall around me, like you are doing. In later years, I've heard from several sources that a LOT of girls thought I was cute, and would've gone out with me, had I asked... also a lot of people (not just girls) thought I was stuck up and full of myself, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

Moral of the story, most likely, your low self-opinion of yourself is probably not shared by others, and if you came out of your shell a little, you would probably be much more successful than you could ever dream.

DougS, I disagree, I think his opinion of himself IS shared by others. And frankly that's often the problem, because others will usually treat you the way you treat yourself. If you have a high opinion of yourself, others usually will too. And vice versa. Which is exactly what I mean when I say you have to love yourself first. Nobody is going to love you (except maybe your mother) if you don't love yourself.

Excuse me for not joining in the 'Help Book Guy Deal With Himself and Learn to Find Love' campaign, but I think you're all missing the point about "be yourself" advice. It's not about "being yourself" all the time and never trying to be anything else for fear you'll be "found out". That's boring, even for Misters Pitt and Brosnan (who are, y'know, actors). It's about being revealing of your true self, open about your feelings and, yes, vulnerable. Which, BTW, doesn't preclude putting on an act most of the time.

Book Guy is right that adopting an impressive persona gets you noticed, but it only gets you so far. When do you fall in love with someone? When they're cool? No, when they drop their guard and allow their awkward, insecure, less than ideal selves to show through. To be lovable, you have to be human.

It's a tough thing to express, how you have to be "your best version of yourself" without being "something fake." And how "loving yourself" isn't the same as being a cantankerous old coot whom nobody wants to be around because he's so danged proud of himself that he aggravates everyone.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread with my "manipulative" comments. I was just trying to make a single (and to me obvious) point, that "be yourself" is vapid and empty advice quite often. It basically means, "I find you unappealing and I don't know what else to say" and also "I personally wouldn't want to think I was being fooled."

But then again, perhaps this thread deserves to be hijacked ... :P ...

How do I love Thee? AT 65, I have no desire to jump into bed with a grandmother. I am the most elegible bachelor that I know of. I have it all. I could date 40 Yo's but they have baggage. Teenagers. I have aleady raised 3. So I go to strip clubs for my cheap sexuall needs. Cheaper than another wife. But shit happens. I have never sought out an ATF. It just happend twice and maybe a 3rd time to come. And when it does, I love them. Sex ITC is a given. OTC a no no. Since I have been burned twice by ATF's for OTC meals. That is no longer on the menu. Serious fucking only.

Chandler, well said. I agree 100%. It's what I've been trying to say. The anomoly is that we all wear masks and play different roles - it's part of who we are (which is another way of saying that it's all fantasy, but you don't agree with that.) So when I say you should be yourself, that includes the various masks we all wear at times.

I once was told that getting to know someone is like peeling an onion - each time you remove a layer there's another and different one underneath. The interesting question for me is what happens when we remove the last layer and find nothing underneath?

Thanks, FONDL. I might have made too much of your aversion to tricks and social skills as a belief that all artifice is an obstacle to revealing oneself, whereas I believe that artifice can reveal deeper truths.

Is your question a reference to the Paris Hilton friendship in another thread? I'll let you know what happens.

Chandler, I'm averse to the INTENTIONAL tricks that some people use in social situations to manipulate others. The masks we all wear are mainly unintentional and unconscious, alternate personas that we all assume in various different situations. We learned to do this as children and it's part of who we are. In fact, I sometimes wonder if that isn't all of who we are, that if we took off all of our masks there'd be nothing left, as I asked earlier.

I wasn't aware that there was another reference to Parris Hilton here. I was simply joking that her type isn't very appealing to me, that I'd have no interest in a friendship with her. In fact I doubt if she's capable of friendship.

Another reference, and you commented on it, was in 'When does stripper shit turn turn into bonifide conversation between friends?' Her dubious capacity and accessibility for friendship, not her desirability, was the whole point of that reference. The likely void at her core is the point of this one, in case that wasn't clear.

And sorry, I don't really buy a distinction between intentional artifice as bad and unintentional as good. The opposite is as often the case. Conscious masks can be adopted amiably (and can be fun), while unconscious ones can be malignant and boring.

I still think I'm a great guy who has very bad social skills. I think a lot of strip-club goers are just lonely men who've been unlucky to slip into a mode of life where their generally normal, average, vanilla sexual desires are managed and fulfilled by their straightforward ways of life. Joe Blow tries to have normalcy ... can't get it ... probably a very great guy who just doesn't know how to show it to other people.

I can't explain how this can be the case (since, presumably, the capacity to be "a great guy" actually implies, among other things, GOOD social skills) but it's like so many of us are diamonds in the rough. Waiting to figure out how to reveal our better, less timid, selves to the rest of the world. It's not JUST about timidity, either; it's also about ... oh, I don't know ... the capacity to understand just how much of someone else's buttons need to be pushed to just how much of a degree of "control" or "manipulativeness." And how to do that without being that Machiavellian evil-manipulative thing that we all know is actually a bad way to live your life.

Good-button-pushing. Many of us just don't GET it. That's why we're at strip clubs. At least, that's why *I* am, and probably a lot of guys who don't show up on these boards. Loneliness, inability to shift our lives to where we aren't continually lonely; horniness, similarly.

Chandler, I agree with you. I didn't mean to imply that all intentionally-adopted masks are bad, only those that are used to manipulate (in a bad way) other people. Nor are all unconscious masks good, I never said that. All I said is that the unconscious masks are part of who we are, good and bad. And we're the only ones who know what's under all the masks, others rarely see that, we're usually afraid to let them.

BG, I agree with you that a lot of guys who hang out at strip clubs are lonely guys with poor social skills. I think the clubs serve a useful purpose in that regard.

FONDL: either they serve a useful purpose, or they exacerbate the guys' lack of social skills and hence increase their eventual longer-term prospects for loneliness and reduce any hope those guys will ever change or improve, hence serving quite a negative purpose. :)

Just playin' devil's advocate there ...

BG, most of the lonely guys who I see hanging out regularly in clubs are old geezers like myself. We're way past the point where it matters whether we have any social skills or not (actually I do but that's beside the point.) We're not lookin for anything other than a little friendly conversation with a scantily-clad young girl to go with our beer, while we dream about our lost youth and pretend that these young gals find us attractive. Most of the guys like that who I see probably don't have any social skills and never did. And at this point in their lives they could care less. We're way past caring whether she likes us for our money or because we're so clever or cute. You go worry about shit like that, I don't have the time or the energy. Or the interest.

Uh oh I'm turning into a lonely old geezer ... Maybe I need to turn my free time to better use!