Deja Vu

I don't have any in my area (South Florida) but have read complaints about them in general.

IDK if all Deja Vus are corporately owned or it some just license the name? Until recently I'd read the one in COI offered pretty-good mileage and value but I think something happened a few months ago.

When I lived/SCed in Dallas in the mid-2000s there was a tiny Deja Vu next to the old Baby Dolls which I liked, and felt provided good mileage per Dallas standards.

Hustler in cleveland is the best in town (not saying much though since it is a bad clubbing town). Kahoots in columbus was once the best in the city (now it is a rip off due to new restrictions on contact). Deja vu in cincinnati and toledo got shut down by authorities

I work at a Deja Vu in MI a few times a month. They are all corporate owned and run. In my experience, the dancers are usually 1.) brand new to dancing or 2.) girls who couldn't cut it in Detroit and are looking for a club to be more "respected at" (not my words).
I've found the girls to be closed minded, alcoholic (they bring in their own and use work to get drunk instead of actually work), feministic personalities (especially when I tell them stories of working at Legends), naive, and uninformed/uneducated in the industry.
This is just my own observation of working along side the girls. There was a meeting shortly after I was hired about girls being ROBs. For example, I give a high contact dance for $20 and the rest tell you you can't touch for $20, but a $30 dance will allow light touching.
Many of the customers at my location are newbie customers, underage, or sober. Coming from Detroit and being super fit, I run laps over most of the girls I work with at my Vu location.

@samsung- I never knew Kahoots was under the DV umbrella. I don't see it listed under DV locations on DV website.

Anyway, post topic could make good subject for a book. I haven't set foot in a DV in over 10 years. From the early 90's until 2007, I visited 15 DV clubs in 9 different states. In several cases, DV was the only game in town, or else had little meaningful competition. In those monopoly cases, I appreciated them coming in. Over time, the gimmicky lean of the club became wearisome. Mileage depends on the area, but in SF, mileage came at a price. Posted price was $20, but was told that would only get a bikini dance, but $40 would get a good nude contact dance. (late 90's). At first I went along with that, rationalizing that SF was a high cost area, but when they jacked price up to $60 in early 2000's, I said screw that and left. (Hello, Crazy Horse )

As for dancer attractiveness, IME, club chain had a good solid midrange of lapable prospects, and very few dogs. There were more true hotties than dogs, but in areas with meaningful competition/alternatives, they weren't the club to have the hottest dancers in town. Since I like hot dancers, good mileage at a reasonable price while abhorring gimmickry/cheesiness, I've seen little reason to patronize DV clubs in the last decade.

Havent been to any deja vu except the one in lake station, in. I thought it was just average but dances were cheap.

Yes, they all seem to suck and Waffle's observation of the dancers is in line with mine, new, young, inexperienced. I have been to them mostly in the midwest, but I haven't been to one in damn near a decade. The one I frequented the most was in Akron, Ohio and I have no idea if it's even still in business.

Yeah... I wrote a review about Deja Vu Ypsilanti and never posted it because I realized I'd written a complete bitchfest about how I can barely stand the other dancers and much I internally laugh at them. Hardly anything I'd written was usable for a conducive and practical review.
The immaturity and inexperience of the girls I work with makes me wonder how the fuck they could ever last at Legends. And yes, many have expressed interest in working there after learning the club had to ban extras. I was not very welcome my first two weeks there because I was still working in Detroit and didn't have the "anti-Detroit" mindset many at Vu had. Not ALL Detroit entertainers are extras providers, but a few Vu girls argued with me that yes, all Detroit dancers are. I argued back asking if they wanted me to bring all of my friends from Legends out to dance with me - providers and "clean" dancers. I didn't let them get to me and ignored them. I feel they realized I wasn't going anywhere and eased off me. Now that Legends is extras free, many of the Vu girls have asked for my agent's info and expressed desire to work there. This is also considering I witnessed TWO of them cry on busy weekend nights! one cried because a gentleman slapped her ass when she was on the satellite stage. Another cried because somebody had grabbed one of her butt cheeks and shook it while walking behind her. It's really hard for me to suppress laughing at some of the shit I see and hear when I work there.

I’ve only ever been to 2 Deja Vu clubs, both in the Detroit area. I will shamefully admit that I used to frequent the one in Ypsilanti a lot. It’s been nearly a year since I last visited, though, and the reasons why I no longer go there (besides lack of extras) were already mentioned by Waffle.

Deja Vu clubs really are for the enjoyment of those who are young college students that aren’t hardcore strip club customers like most of us here on this board. Why else would a lot of their clubs be located in college towns?

I haven't been to the Deja Vu in Ypsilanti in many years. It had no alcohol and no touching and no hot dancers. But if Waffle is working there, I might reconsider.

I enjoy meeting fellow forum posters! I won't be back at Vu until EMU and U of M Fall semesters have begun.
There's still no alcohol, but most of us smuggle in some and leave it in the locker room. I guarantee many of the dancers are either buzzed or just drunk. I allow touching because why the fuck not touch what you are paying to see up close? (Does not apply to vagina - club rules.)
I used to post on TwoSheds very frequently under my stage name, so if you're familiar with that site, then you know who I am as I use the same stage name from that site at both clubs I work at.

I will say that I highly enjoy the frequent feature entertainer shows though! Meeting Kendra Lust was awesome and she has been my favorite feature to meet and see perform since I started at Deja Vu Ypsi!

Just an FYI. Deja VU bought out the remaining 4 Platinum Plus clubs in Allentown, Greenville(Bucks), Columbia & West Columbia. The Columbia club burned down shortly after the purchase. This was not for the better.

I have been to a Deja Vu once,and will never go back. The whole juice bar thing is just senseless to me. If I'm in a titty bar I want to enjoy some libations. The girls there were "ok" but they were very clear that it was very low mileage and a no contact kind of place. Lots of cameras in the dance booths and a bouncer watching like a hawk. If the Vu is the only game in town.......I'll pass.

^^^^^ Juice bar? Well in some states, like CA, you cannot have alcohol and nudity. Otherwise DV would not do it that way. They have to operate by local regs and considering the strictness of the regulatory environment.

As far as lazy girls or ROB's, I don't see any reason this is more likely in DV than in other clubs. DV is a very organized operator. If you find one with Lazy Girls or ROB's, then that will probably be the place I'll be getting one of their girls into a front room makeout session, and then be taking her home with me.

Spectator Magazine, writing about San Francisco, used to call DV McStripClub.

I used to be completely against them, on account of San Francisco, taking over, destroying front room action and turning the places into 'wanna dance' clip joints.

Their position is that San Francisco just has high real estate prices and actually it is they who are keeping the clubs open. And then zoning regs prevent anyone from opening more clubs.

So I accept that. It is not DV that is the problem, it is LE.

DV has run some of the most raunchy and TUSCL loved clubs in the US. And then they also have their TJ operation.

At the TJ operation, they insist that there is no regulation of the women. So it should be then front room make out session, then arriba, then seeing your girl regularly outside for TLN. No onsite TLN, but still hard to beat.

They tried to make it like this in Pahrump, and they definitely have assembled a GFE Team, but NV has all kinds of screwy laws which make it all impossible. So they spent $4 Meg to get TJ going.

In the US, many of their places have been completely unbranded, so no one knew DV owned them.

Their position is that it is their job to make money for their share holders, not to give their customers the most off the hook experiences. Legal troubles cost money.

So I do accept this. The problem is LE, not DV.

And then also, being a big corp, DV is a target for LE. So they have used unbranding, but they still probably are not going to want to push the envelop the way some smaller operators might.

So for me, then the objective should be to create more competition in all places, like for example San Francisco.

But just trying to cut into DV should not really be the objective. If they are one thing, they are well organized and they work more like a think tank, or a brain trust. They have learned how to squeeze the most money out of these clubs. This is why at many of them, it's 'wanna dance' instead of front room friendliness.

They bring more young girls in, whereas the more experienced one's will want to go to high mileage independents. A girl I knew from SF was leaving to got to MBOT, wanted less controls upon her.

So anyway just leave them be.

I have written about possible other business models, like membership clubs and things which combine the best of strip clubs and AMPs.

Some of the most raunchy places are coming from the underground. I believe SF Black Diamonds was like this, originally just a bar, drag queen bar, or hooker bar, and in a heavy street hooker neighborhood.

Walking in and seeing a beautiful black girl on stage, peeled down to just high heels and makeup. No way that could possibly be legal in a CA place which serves alcohol, but there it was.

Street hooker following me out later on, seeing if I wanted a date. Other street hookers, and their pimps, doing the same.

But things change. There might be hooker bars in Oakland now. I would suspect so.

DV, the standard branded type, I would say that it is more for tourists, business travelers who will recognize the name and go for that instead of a local dive. Its just like it is with chain restaurants.

In TJ, most who write about it do not like it, too pricey, not enough girls. But some here feel it would be safer, so they have interest.

I think that DV could help themselves in TJ, if they haven't already, by prohibiting smoking. That would give them an edge over the other places, and also put them in compliance with TJ's laws.

SJG

The Deja Vu I used to visit with quite some regularity has the best deal in town: 30-minute VIP for $100.00. With the right girl you can get a lot of mileage, even without tip. That said, dancer quality can be lacking but very few girls are outright unattractive.

Sounds good, above average. But the issue there is likely to be the lack of front room makeout sessions. So you are taking a girl to the back room, to see if she is good, not because she is already good.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

TrollWarnBot has been going from club to club, looking for indications of fake reviews. He also makes sure the FemBots are kept charged up so that guys can get their LDK's.

Now TrollWarnBot is undertaking a special assignment. Sunnyvale Brass Rail saw the ads, Tijuana Tim's Show Donkey Breeding Ranch, Proudly Serving The Needs Of Both Mexico And The United States.

So they sent in their money, prepaid, for an authentic Mexican show donkey, and to be trained and rehearses by none other than the Legendary Mamisan.

But where is it? What's the hold up?

So TrollWarnBot is going down there to find out.

SJG

They fucking suck. For dancers and customers alike. I have no idea how they still exist. They are hands down the worst club chain around, but in some areas they’re the best or only club so maybe that’s why..

^^^^ In my view part of it comes down to convincing the girls that their rules protect them from harm or abuse, and also protect their income.

No front room friendliness, etc.

But only very young and inexperienced dancers would believe this.

Otherwise, they are a well rehearsed kind of a think tank. They do know that they are doing. So they can squeeze out more money for the house, when there is limited competition.

But consider, they have run some of the most raunchy clubs in the country. They have run stuff comparable to Follies.

They bought the Chicken Ranch, to make it like TJ, and if they could they would make all their clubs that way.

And then as Pahrump really did not work the way they wanted, they spent $ 4 Meg to set up TJ.

So sure, DV, and a dive next door, I will be going to the latter. And I want to find some way to reintroduce competition to SF.

But I no longer see DV as the problem. It is LE which is the problem.

-->"They fucking suck. For dancers and customers alike. I have no idea how they still exist. They are hands down the worst club chain around, but in some areas they’re the best or only club so maybe that’s why.."

I wonder also if, with so many SC customers being "boys night out" customers rather than PLs, whether Deja Vu provides name recognition, the perception of a "safe" and consistent experience...

In SF, the DJV monopoly has been an unmitigated disaster. We have some of the worst clubs in any city -- and ironically, we're in a city where, at least in clubs that don't serve alcohol, there is no law enforcement action, period. DJV is free to do what they'd like, unencumbered by worries about law enforcement, and what we've got is that what was once one of the best SC cities (around the turn of the century) is one of the worst.

Yes, Spectator Mag used to call them McStripClub, saying that it was more for tourists ( hipsters, boy's night out ) not for locals ( whore mongers, PL, perverts, regular TUSCL posters ).

But this was more DV Centerfolds. As DV has bought up more stuff, the situation has become more negative.

But their claim is that they are protecting clubs from closure due to high rents.

But I tell you, I now know that they have run stuff in the US comparable to Follies.

It all comes down to LE. If they could, all their clubs would be like TJ. In TJ they don't regulate the women at all. So it should be just as extreme as anything else there is.

We need to re-introduce competition to San Francisco, but it has to be done in some other way. I say small membership, no alcohol clubs.

And for those new to this, Subraman is our uncontested San Francisco expert.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

TrollWarnBot is leaving now to go on a special assignment to see what the problem is at Tijuana Tim's Show Donkey Breeding Ranch, because the Sunnyvale Brass Rail paid up front, but still no donkey.

SJG

Yeah I remember years ago, back when I worked at Landing Strip in Romulus, a girl there started working to save up money before school. She worked the whole summer, then went off to Michigan State, then I saw her again in December and she said she was working at a Vu out there. I asked her how it was and she said it sucked, she made way less than at Landing Strip because they take half her money.

An old friend of mine worked at the Vu in Flint MI and we just met up a few days ago after having not seen each other in years, and she said it was her favorite club ever working at... I also think part of that is because it kept her in check. No extras and no alcohol, whereas at the Detroit clubs she worked at, it was a horrible environment for her. She is a recovered addict, and would get drunk and high and let customers do whatever they wanted to her for very little money and no condom use. So perhaps she felt/found some self worth at the Vu.

I worked briefly at Little Darlings in Kalamazoo MI. It's a Vu chain (there's literally a Deja Vu connected to the building which is weird). It wasn't bad, but I kind of was favored by the managers anyway because their multimillionaire regular fell in love with me and would always come in to see me.

A friend I danced with in Detroit came and worked there. The girls thought we were sketchy at first, as Waffle explained any Detroit dancer is automa judged as an extras girl there. But they learned pretty quickly that I was a "clean" dancer, good hustler, and not about their bullshit.

Girls from our underground clubs explain that 'wanna dance' does not make as much money as front room aggression and front room tips. With front room tips, no house cut. With front room aggression, it gets results. Wanna Dance usually goes no where.

DV has to play it safe because being so big they are a target for LE. They are there to make money for their share holders.

So we have to find ways of opening new clubs, I think some new kind of club.

SJG

^^^ INterestingly enough, there's a local PL insider who has been going to one of the underground Mexican hat dancing strip clubs. He's been giving light reports -- sounds pretty outrageous, lots of girls, lots of mileage, easy to pull OTC. No wonder these things get shut down by LE occasionally and have to move. Bit of a blessing that SanJo just doesn't have the manpower to pay much attention to it.

The underground Mexican Bar circuit comes and goes. Sometimes better than others.

Sometimes it is $20 a dance, and of course that is idiotic.

But sometimes it is $1 at a time, and that is great! Its not just the cost reduction, its that it is so much more interactive. They stay only as long as you keep feeding them money. No fixed time or money formula, just outlaw latinas.

But of course this violates alcohol license rules and so LE can close it anytime they want.

And yes, the girls who work in these venues do so in order to line up all the OTC they can. And they are good at it. And they make you know this when they are at your chair dancing for you, on you, etc.

If you let the girls do it their way it would be front room make out sessions, BBBJ's, and then FS.

SJG

I’ve been to the one in Minnesota. It used to be busy but was dead when I was there recently.

Zoey, what sucked about the Vu in your experience?

Have you been to one, or basing this on reports? Anyway, with Brass Rail shut down, there's been a BR stripper diaspora, and some of those girls have found there way to this particular underground club (which is how the local PL found out about it)

It all comes and goes. But I had not heard about any Brass Rail closure. Have to look into that. Overall, though I have made use of the local clubs for decades, the whole thing does suck. Fairly low cost though.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/15/s…

Yes, well its all been family run since 1960. I suspect that the patriarch, George Emmas likely died. Sad loss.

Real estate developers have been pillaging and plundering everywhere in the South Bay.

So that means two Sunnyvale clubs down in the last few years. Real bad!

To find the best underground now I suggest looking in Watsonville, Monterey, or Salinas.

To find if it is in San Jose, there is a bar in that 7 Trees shopping center, I would ask there. If you find one bar, then dancers will tell you about the others. And the Mexicans call it "Bikini Show".

Also, there is still one left on E. Santa Clara St. Ask there, sometimes some nice looking hookers in there too.

SJG

Also that old Mexicalli site on 13th st near 101. Then another one on White, either White and Alum Rock, or White and McKee.
SJG

Personally I've got my sites on that Club Fantasy in Sacramento, place most people see as a black shit hole. Can't be yet, but eventually. I believe I could really like it and some of their girls. Otherwise Oakland and its hooker bars. Or SF's great AMPs.

Bay are strip club scene has serious problems. But I don't actually blame DV any more.

SJG

@huntsman they take a shitload of money from the dancers, have a lot of rules and fines, and those vending machine style dance booths are a huge buzzkill. I like the sparkly stages and tacky decor though :D

The fine system is crazy. Since they have a near-monopoly in SF, they have further leverage over the dancers -- if a stripper makes waves, she can get blackballed from all DJV clubs, which basically means she isn't working as a stripper anymore in SF (ok, there's one non-DJV club left, but it's all nude dive club w/ extras, so not everyone's cup of tea).

The corporatization is a disaster for both the girls and the customers

Yeah, sounds fucked up. We’ve got a Vu and a Vu-owned club around here and neither one exactly seems to be thriving in terms of numbers of strippers or customers in recent times from what I can tell.

deja vu coi used to be a fun nude place with some hot waitress. now it's bikini with no booze. they lost their nude license.

@ san_jose_guy

Club Fantasy recently applied for a liquor license and they did some remodeling as well. Based off the most recent review they may be changing to an after hours party club.

All this talk about Deja Vu made me curious about how many clubs they actually run - per Wikipedia:


Déjà Vu Consulting, Inc. is an American company that (as of 2017) operates about 132 strip clubs in 41 U.S. states, as well as multiple clubs in the United Kingdom, Australia, France, Canada, and Mexico.[1] The company also operates a large chain of adult retail stores, multiple online adult enterprises, gay bars, nightclubs, restaurants, and has substantial real estate holdings. It is the largest strip club operator in the world, and one of the largest adult businesses in history.[2][3] In 2016, the group opened Deja Vu Showgirls Tijuana, the largest adult entertainment club in the world, at over 140,000 square feet.[4] It also operates the second largest adult club in the world, Larry Flynt's Hustler Club in Las Vegas.[5]

The company is headquartered in Las Vegas, Nevada; it was founded and is controlled by Harry Mohney, who partners with Roger Forbes. Together, they opened their first Déjà Vu strip club in the Lake City neighborhood of Seattle in 1985. Many of the original clubs were converted adult theaters. Mohney had a humble beginning as a projectionist at a drive-in movie theater in Durand, Michigan, later converted the failing enterprise into the infamous "Durand Dirties",[6] and eventually grew the chain to about 300 adult theaters nationally. An elusive man often referred to as the "Howard Hughes of Porn", Mohney was the largest distributor of pornography from the late '60s to the early '90s,[7] grossing nearly $1 billion in the distribution business between 1970 and 1990. That business largely concluded with Mohney serving three years in federal prison for tax-related crimes.[8] While he was indicted dozens of times on federal charges, this was the only charge that ever resulted in a conviction.

The strip clubs are called "Déjà Vu Showgirls", "Little Darlings", "Dream Girls", or (by agreement with Mohney's long-time friend Larry Flynt, who is not involved in the management of the clubs) "Larry Flynt's Hustler Club" and "Hustler Barely Legal". Déjà Vu also owns most of the adult theatres and clubs (with the exception of Crazy Horse) in San Francisco, most being on Broadway; these, however, carry different names.[9] In 2012 Déjà Vu opened a club in collaboration with Vince Neil (of the rock band Mötley Crüe) in Las Vegas, Nevada, appropriately named "Vince Neil's Girls, Girls, Girls." Déjà Vu also operates many clubs that do not carry their typical brand names, as well as the Erotic Heritage Museum in Las Vegas, Nevada.

The clubs typically aim for a clean and upscale atmosphere and offer fully nude or topless stage dancing as well as lap dances. Many do not serve alcohol, to avoid stringent liquor license requirements. Several clubs have associated "Déjà Vu Love Boutique" stores selling sex toys, lingerie, adult DVDs, Déjà Vu merchandise, cigars, etc. There are also several stand-lone boutique locations, many of which are the largest stores in the country. The chain organizes nationwide club competitions such as "Déjà Vu Showgirl of the Year", "Showgirl Spectacular", and "Pole Princess."


Little Darlings in Las Vegas, Nevada
Déjà Vu published the adult magazine Showgirls from 1990 to 2002. Issue #1 was published in October 1990 and the magazine ran monthly until November 2002. In 2002 the magazine published four quarterly editions until it ceased publication in the fall of that year. Showgirls magazine featured nude layouts of dancers from Déjà Vu Showgirls clubs, as well as adult film stars; strip club reviews; coverage of events ranging from new club openings to adult film conventions, to special events like Mardi Gras, Daytona Beach and Myrtle Beach Bike weeks and more; erotic stories; adult video reviews and adult industry legal news. Many of adult film's top performers have appeared on its pages and covers, including Jenna Jameson, Tera Patrick, and Serenity, who also served as the magazine's "guest publisher" from November 1997 to the fall of 2002.

Déjà Vu has sponsored many sporting events such as charity golf outings, unlimited hydroplane (speedboat) racing, off-road truck racer Gene Woods and female funny car driver Leah Pruett Leduc. Its publicity stunts at various clubs often garner international media attention.[10]

Dancers in the clubs have the legal status of independent contractors or "space tenants."

Formerly: Deja Vu Services, Inc.

Type: Strip clubs and adult retail stores

Industry: Adult entertainment

Founded: 1978; 40 years ago

Founder: Harry Mohney

Headquarters: Las Vegas, Nevada, U.S.

Number of locations: 168

Area served: International

Brands: Deja Vu Showgirls, Hustler Club, Dreamgirls, Little Darlings, Buck's Cabaret, Penthouse Club, Gold Club, Gay '90s, Love Boutique, Adult Emporium, Pleasure Emporium, & Many Others

Revenue: $400M+ (annually)

Number of employees: 8,300

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Déjà_Vu_(c…

EchoPizza, I hope you are not talking about Club Fantasy Sacramento CA. Getting an alcohol license would mean that they cannot be nude, and it would mean that LE can twist their arm much more easily. No Good.

https://www.tuscl.net/listing.php?id=162…

Chico has one, nude, and not DV
https://www.tuscl.net/listing.php?id=109…

Is this a shit hole or is this a shit hole? Chico has a CSU
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8513362,…

We also have our Mexican bars, and they usually have at least some takeout waiting.

We have a San Jose Mexican and Vietnamese underground.

Then I suspect that the full Mexican bar scene will be stronger in Watsonville, Monterey, and Salinas. And Monterey is known for a particular Vietnamese Hostess Bar.

And then SF AMPs are still off the charts.


But we can't expect DV to compete with these kinds of venues..

DV owns lots of clubs, but unbranded, through other names. They have owned some of the most Follies like things in this country. But then LE strikes, and LE usually does not play fair.

If we could could get laws changed, then DV's clubs, and others, would be like TJ.

But if we just got rid of DV, then there would be far less clubs. Most of the ones they have bought have been on the cheap, like in SF after the 2008 meltdown, and then earlier in the 90's, after Willey Brown was out and Gavin Newsom in. What this means is that the clubs would otherwise likely have closed.

So we should not be beating up on DV. Instead, try to get laws changed. And then also try to find ways to open some other type of higher mileage club. I say using the membership club model, incorporating the best features of SC's and AMP's. These other clubs would also help lead to legal changes, by changing attitudes.

Remember, the Puritanical Flavor of Feminism, back in the 80's, used to be crusading against porn. But now, because of the Internet, porn has become universal. So they can't attack that anymore. So instead they have shifted their focus to Trafficking.

DV Is not the actual enemy, it is LE.

And also, once you are seeing a girl outside, what they do at her club no longer matters.

SJG

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-->"But then LE strikes"

SJG, just to be fair here -- in SF, in no-alcohol clubs, law enforcement does not strike, period, and the DA will not prosecute prostitution arrests from the clubs, period. SJV is responsible and accountable 100% for the state of SF clubs -- and the fact that from the time DJV started buying clubs here, SF went from one of the best SC cities in the country, to one of the worst. You can't say we shouldn't hold DJV accountable -- they are the ONLY ones left to hold accountable. Given the fact that there's a law enforcement free pass, it makes the entire situation more ridiculous.

Add in the underhanded tactics they used to obtain ownership of the previous, actual fun clubs (research how they ended up with ownership of LA Gals, for example). And now add into that, the environment for the strippers themselves -- the incredible fine system, the fact that it's an open secret among the strippers that if they step too far out of line, they can't get jobs at any other strip club in the city (except Crazy Horse)

They are absolutely the evil empire. At least here in SF.

@ san_jose_guy

Unfortunately, yes, I was referring to Club Fantasy in Sacramento. They look to be changing themselves into more of a night club/make it rain type joint. Also, the private dance areas have less privacy too.

Well, I don't like their approach. But this is why I am not a highly paid executive with a nationwide strip club chain. They have to make money for their share holders, not give me my front room makeout sessions, like with that black girl at new century, long long ago.

Under Terrance Halinan, they were safe. But this does not mean that Halinan was a monger's friend. He was applying a harm reduction ethic. Hands off AMPs and SCs. But he was setting new records in his street enforcement, and his going after Johns. He used that chicken shit Nora Hoatling program, get the John's to plead guilty. He really did make a huge difference. SF does not look like it once did.

Then once Newsom came in, he took point an a string of AMP busts, which RBer's still call Black Friday.

So I am not sure that an 'off the hook' SF SC would be safe today. And this would mean a very front room place, what people have called 'orgy clubs'.

Then, they also have to serve their bosses, the share holders. And yeah, when there is no competition, it is different. They want to maximize the take.

So of course, they shut down front room friendliness.

If there were competition they could not do this. And recently they have been under different names running some of the most extreme places in the US.

They tried to make Pahrump a front room friendliness venue, with its own strip club. And they have a GFE Team assembled. Read their website. They are going as far as they can, its just that Nevada law is really screwy.

So they pub $4Meg into TJ. They insist that they do not regulate the women. So this should mean fitchas and tongue sucking, then arriba.

If they had their way and if there were competition, all their US clubs would be like this.

So why no competition? Zoning laws make it impossible to open more clubs in many places. These laws are as unconstitutional as their predecessors, which courts struck down. But getting this is hard and costly.

And new clubs cost money. Investors want to make money.

So I say, we invent a new type of club, membership, hard to get in the front door, soft advertising, minimal signage, and combine best of SC and AMP.

So you have some time getting through the front door. Then front room lengua, then back room AMP style.

Then you move to seeing your girl outside for TLN - MSOG - ANAL.

Lower cost to get it going. More like an AMP, not overtly an Adult or Sex Oriented business. Members only, so not even retail. Exempt from zoning. Hard for LE to crack.

This would make competition, and also serve the needs of our PL Mongers.

I wish things were easier. But I don't anymore think it accomplishes anything to blame DV.

Don't know about LA Gals. Most of their places are ones which would have otherwise gone under.

DV brings a professionalized and systematic management. No, I do not like the way the do it. I want that old New Century way, the little black girl, open tongue kissing on stage, then DFKing with me.

And I don't know that there is no front room tongue in any DV place. I don't know. Some of their places are still dives. And people post about dance booth lengua, and with FS.

There has been such for me. Girls have recited the "I don't kiss line", and then been demonstrably reversing themselves not too further on, and in the front room.

In some of these places the girls are tipping out the bouncers. Mostly it is to be able to do what they want in the back room. And yes, that is a chickenshit way to run a business. But it is a screwy world we live in.

So yes, as long as the big boss is not there, like on the day shift, when I have gone, probably a girl paying bouncers can do what she wants.

DV has power, but it is not omnipotent. And the girls I have been DFKing have really been dolled up beauties! And they were full on for OTC, like at the shift change. Probably why they were so GFE with me.

So lets build a competition, rather than just beating up on them. But it will probably be a different kind of competition.

SJG

Echo, thank you for that info. I think in most of the country, black clubs are more like regular night clubs at night time. But in the day time, or when ever they first open, people are always writing, "always a girl sitting on your lap". And if that is not conducive to GFE demo's, then I don't know what is.

We will have to wait and see.

Eventually I will be going to all of these places, always selecting and approaching the girl myself, tip, feel up, smooth talking, tongue sucking, back room first load, then taking her home with me and continuing to see her regularly.

SJG

As far as DV, the reason I posted is because 4 of 4 clubs I've been to sucked and not in good ways.

Vegas Little Darlings or 'LD'. Full of ROBs. Pricing is advertised as 20 per song but most gals tell you 40. Management asks you to tell them then they don't do anything except shrug or offer you a free cover. ITC and OTC goes down but for crazy prices. Gals will upcharge and try to steal from you (literally try to reach in your pocket.). Management is oblivious but because this is one of the few all nude clubs in Vegas some go and some tourists don't mind paying 400 for a HJ or 1k for a 10 minute screw.

Deja Vu Vegas - could be a good club. Has the bones. Parking is an issue and not many gals go.

Hustler Vegas - great happy hour pricing. Unfortunately pricing of VIP is insane. Like 700 for an hr before the gals asks for a tip. Gets busy at night because of the location but you're gonna pay through the nose and if one is going to do that, might as well get top shelf liquor at Sapphire or Spearmint.

Deja Vu COI - eh surprised with Paradise, Synn and Spearmint how this place stays in business since those are vastly superior.

All in all, I've made 20 trips among those and more often than not they suck and it was a waste of time. Doesn't sound like they're any different for the most part in other areas.

"4 of 4 clubs I've been to sucked"

Might you be more specific, and what is your expectation based on, and if there are better clubs, why did you not go to them?

Talk about ROB's? Well DV is a class act. If they have clubs which have ROB's, then probably there is a guy in a dark corner of the front room who is making out with one of their girls and will soon be continuing with her in his own bed. If a club has ROB's then it is a shit hole where anything goes, and the girls who work there are outlaws. These are the kind of clubs and the kind of girls I like.

I have personally experienced the DV $20 and then "$40 gets you a better dance".

But buying dances is a chump's game anyway. You get your wallet sucked dry, and not much else.

The upscale wanna dance club sells expensive fantasy. The high prices for high mileage are absurd. I don't like those clubs. When there, I have substituted DATYing girls in the booth. Has always gone over very well and left girls very well primed for outside liaisons.

But know, those kinds of clubs are not good for ejaculation services, or for FS-ITC. The offering is more a fantasy, only delivered on once in a while I believe.

Get your girl outside and get it so you are waking up in the mornings with her.

Of DV COI, people have posted about back room tongue.

But know, I would not really like the sorts of clubs you are describing. But I would not go to those places either. Only as a last resort, and always for the purpose of selecting a girl and getting her between the sheets regularly.

DV is about making money for its share holders, otherwise its bosses get fired.

What we should do is figure out how to create competition, but it probably has to be some other type of competition. Trying to do what DV does now would probably just end up going the same direction they have gone.

Strip clubs have some great characteristics, but they also have some serious limitations. A dancer long ago told me not to use strip clubs for sexual gratification, because, "That is perverted".

SJG

Sorry, 5 of 5. Forgot to mention DV in San Diego where the gal wouldn't tell me what anything was priced, which is typical of DV. And I wasn't asking for extras - just how much a standard lapped was and what the base rates for VIP were etc. And SJG not in the mood to get sucked into a debate with you. Sorry not sorry.

San Diego widely report as having shit clubs, but decent AMPs.

Better clubs available, why did you not go to them?

Where have you been to better clubs, and what made them better?

Strip clubs are great, but they also have serious limitations.

DV is there to make money for share holders. How exactly they are going to do this, in my view, depends a lot upon what the competition is doing, or if there even is competition.

In DV's view, strip clubs are a dying industry. In part they base this on alcohol sales, and in some states the records are public, so they track the competition. They track everything everywhere.

I say we should invent some competition, but it would best be a different sort of competition. The intent is not actually to squeeze DV, just to make better venues.

Thanks Pistola for the info and for speaking your mind. Not intending to debate, just to understand. And thanks for starting this thread.

SJG

If the management isn't doing anything about girls up charging, notify corporate. I guarantee those girls who are up charging will be suspended, fined, or fired immediately. The managers will be reprimanded as well. The advertised price is $20/couch dance. You are not required to pay more than $20/song and every song is counted by a bouncer. If you go back with the hottest dancer, and even if she tells you she charges $40/song, you can still give her $20/song as advertised.
This was a huge problem at the Vu I work at and management stepped in and threatened to fire girls who were up charging.

The $20 sign and then saying $40 gets you a better dance is a gimmick. Management undoubtedly knows about it, but it can do little. They aren't up charging after, before.

Where I was, you could pay only $20, but it would be little more than an air dance.

The women are not marionettes, the management does not own them.

But buying dances is a chump's game anyway.

Front room makeout session, back room FS, then take her home with you and continue to spend nights pumping loads into her regularly.

DV is probably not the best place to try this, but I would not say it is impossible either. But dives are probably the best.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

As far as San Diego, Cheetahs is the best non extras club I've ever stepped foot in. Day shift only. Gals are hot AF, some legit LA 8s and 9s and as par for the course in San Diego, usually laid back and chill. They will grind the hell out of you and well to paraphrase Bill Clinton as far as extras it depends on what your definition is. And with freedom to come and go during their shift to the bar 20 feet away (also owned by Cheetahs) one can chat them up to get to know them better. ''Tis a great place. I tried DV in SD once to try it and I'll never go back as it is a place that lives up to the San Diego rep of clubs generally sucking. As far as AMPs as an added benefit the best AMP in San Diego is a one minute walk from Cheetahs. But Mamisan is picky and doesn't let everyone in....

DV is probably not the best place to try this, but I would not say it is impossible either. But dives are probably the best.

I can do whatever TF I want at DV!! Management loves my pussy!!

1. Like any other business, Deja Vu exists to return profit for its shareholders. Deja Vu would not operate the clubs in a way that is not profitable. So sometimes that means eliminating illicit activity, operating it like a real business, and not just "letting anybody do whatever they want."

2. Deja Vu is the absolute largest operator by far, so something is obviously being done correctly.

3. Sometimes the experience that is best for the guest is not always the best for the business' bottom line. Everybody on this forum seems to think they know how to run an adult club, but I guarantee nobody on here has ever even been a shift manager, nor dealt with the legalities, problems, and details of such a large operation. If you really do think you have what it takes, please apply online for a manager position ad give it a shot!

You live in capitalist America. Businesses exist to maximize their profits and sometimes that might not be to the guest's advantage.

P.S. If entertainers over-charge, please provide that feedback at www.dejavu.com/feedback. This practice is not tolerated and can only be fixed if guests report this instead of just complaining about it on some anonymous online form.

@vu

So where do I apply? I have lots of experience in taking the cut off my bitches and keeping them in line.

I’m wonderfully qualified!

Yo Vu, agree that capitalism is good. So is freedom and lucky for both of us we have the rights to our own opinions. You know what you do well? Your adult stores are nice and you buy good real estate that you can leverage to grow and you hire good people to get the proper licenses. You know what you don't? Having the people run the day to day of your clubs. Has nothing to do with illegal activities or anything else. Of course, this is my opinion as a customer who doesn't walk into any place expecting illegal activities, just a good time and to be treated fairly by those employed, whether on staff or temp 'independent contractors.'

You should let Daddy Tricks run one of your spots, he'll keep those hos in line and run a tight ship.

Assuming this is really someone from Deja Vu, which we have no reason to believe, but pretty awesome if it is:

-->"1. Like any other business, Deja Vu exists to return profit for its shareholders. "
-->"Deja Vu is the absolute largest operator by far,"
-->"You live in capitalist America. Businesses exist to maximize their profits and sometimes that might not be to the guest's advantage."

Agree (although this aspect of Deja Vu's business is not under discussion or criticism here -- it's the customer experience that's being discussed). Just like McDonald's (largest fast food chain in the world) and Subway's (largest restaurant operator in the world) goal is to return profit for its shareholders. But, if you go into a "foodie" forum, you'll find no discussion at all about how efficient McDonald's is at returning profits to its shareholders, that's not what food aficionados care about. If they talk about McDonald's and Subways at all, it will (justifiably) be the incredibly poor quality of the product and customer experience, compared to a good restaurant. Hell, in some ways, McDonalds is everything that's wrong with people's relationship with food.

This forum may be filled with scalliwags and ne'er-do-wells, but nevertheless it's the strip club version of an aficionado forum. DV's efficiency at generating shareholder value isn't going to trick us into thinking the customer experience is anything but shit, laid consistently out across nearly any DV we go to. Yes, we know that a business's practices might not be to a guest's advantage -- we're pointing out that in DV's case, it never is. It's a shit customer experience. Congrats on turning a McDonald's-like product into money; in retrospect, that's probably predictably the type of product that always wins out. Just don't expect SC aficionados to like it.

In reality, I think you probably won't find a McDonald's rep on a foodie or gourmand type forum -- corporatized dumb-down products sell amazing to the broad public, but just aren't a match for what aficionados are looking for. I don't know that Deja Vu would benefit very much from participating here, unless they company made a conscious choice to build a customer experience that's attractive to PLs rather than the occasional SCer

PM's are still a bit snafu on this forum. I'm sure founder will fix it. He has written all of this himself. But I say this just to let people know ahead if they try PM's.

Thinking last night about how to reply to Pistola and get to some common understanding.

Pistola, you talk about bad experiences in 5 out of 5 DV clubs. You talk about one of the worst things, ROB's.

Did you experience an ROB? In how many of those 5 clubs.

And you must know that a large professional operation like DV would not tolerate such.

But people on this forum have posted details about ROB situations, and other people read it differently and see it just as a matter of crossed wires with an inexperienced dancer.

Say I see two clubs:

1. DV clip joint, 'wanna dance', no front room friendliness, high dance prices, LDKing at best, FS potentially possible but priced in the stratosphere. But probably young hotties, and more whites than latinas and few blacks.

Then right next to it:

2. Follies West and TJ HK combined, girl will be on your lap and ramming her tongue down your throat, and then it will be FS on the floor of a back room. Women are older, more street wise, more color.

I am going to go into club 2. I learned about wild off the hook places, and about outlaw girls who follow only their own rules, in our Mexican Bar underground.

Okay, but having said this, this does not mean that DV is doing any harm. It does not mean that DV is sanitizing the clubs.

DV does exist first and foremost to make money for its share holders.

In my view, just speaking for myself, how DV does stuff is mostly a matter of how much competition, how aggressive LE is, and how much lightning rod protection they have.

Because of competition, they might let things get loser. In some places LE is willing to invest vast man hours taking these places down. In others no. And then the other factor, the lightening rod. If there are other really off the hook places, then those protect the other clubs, because LE will strike there first. So then DV can go looser.

So what I am saying is yes, I don't like the typical DV club. But this does not mean that they are harming the industry.

Consider, if there really are some ROB's in DV clubs, what that means then is that even DV cannot fully control what goes on. That means that even if prohibited, there will be some girls who will engage in front room makeout sessions, back room FS, and then let me walk them out the front door.

So the less effective the controls the better. And if the hipsters on yelp hate a club, then that probably is the best endorsement of it one can ever find.

Strip clubs are very interesting, but they also have serious built in limitations. And then when you have super high real estate prices, that will drive clubs under. So I know that DV says they have kept SF clubs open when they otherwise would have closed. I understand this now, I did not before.

The main issue is LE and the real estate industry trying to sanitize neighborhoods.

So I am the one who continues to push front room makeout sessions and the ways that buying dances is a chump's game, and how ejaculation services just increase one's sexual frustration.

And it is true. Strip clubs have a great deal in common with carnival freak shows, more fantasy than delivery.

But this is what brings in the money and reduces the legal liability. So DV is obligated to go that way.

They don't open new clubs because they are convinced that it is a dying industry. And the numbers support this.

So though I have no interest in DV style clubs, this does not mean that I am in anyway against them. That they exist, keeping clubs open, paying the rent, makes things better, not worse.

As far as the looks of the girls, they can only select from those who apply. DV tends to draw younger and more middle-class girls.

At the best dives, they just hire as many girls as possible, and that means that the bosses can't really tell them what to do, they just have to look the other way.

Most DV clubs are of the former type, not dives. But there have been exceptions. Learning that they have run some of the most monger loved shit holes did a great deal to change my opinion of them.

And then they have their own TJ place where they do not regulate the women. So what this will tend to lead to is girls jumping onto your lap and ramming their tongue down your throat, and then asking for either fitcha or arriba. DV can go this way because no LE problem, and also because of the competition. They would gain nothing if they tried to control the women.

DV can do this in TJ because of the law. It can get like this in US clubs, but these are dives, considered expendable, not paying much rent etc.

DV is making money and keeping clubs open. They are not actually making things worse.

My own view then is that we should leave them be and not agitate against them.

Instead we should find a way to reintroduce competition into places like SF. But this will not be easy. We can't just do what DV does and try to beat them. We would face the same constraints of LE and high rents which they do, and investors wanting good returns.

We need to invent some other kind of venue which will be more conducive to the monger type of client. I believe that I have this figured out too.

And Subra, remember that because of LE, customer experiences are always going to be at odds with business interest when it comes to strip clubs.

So to get to that edge, the outlaw places, the off the hook girls, we need to invent some new kind of venues, less conspicuous, less overhead costs, and getting around lots of regulations.

SJG

Ginger Baker's Air Force (Jazz and Rock, 1970) Full Show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe9DA8pO…

Chicago - Full Concert - 07/21/70 - Tanglewood (OFFICIAL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oAoSZ2y…

Clubs don't have to go corporate and charge exorbitant prices to bank.

My club made money hand over fist. We catered to the older redneck crowd. I don't think any of the ladies that danced there were under 30, and none of them would be rated higher than a 5, but they knew how to keep me and the regulars happy.

Of course it helped that my brother was the Sheriff.

I almost cried when we had to shut down after those damn kids from Angel Beach vandalized the place.

Thank you for the comments.

1. You are 100% right! Deja Vu’s product isn’t always for the aficionados. The target market at many clubs is college kids, one-time bachelor parties, etc. This is a drastically larger market than the “aficionados.”

2. The way that Deja Vu has to operate is different from the way “mom and pop” clubs can operate. The scrutiny is different and the problems are different, so the operation is different. Also, what is making “money hand over fist” to a “mom and pop” is not the same for a large operation.

I think when criticizing clubs, sometimes it helps to think about what their target market is. A guest will never be happy with a club whose product is tailored to a market in which he does not fit. It’s the same as trying to shop for a Rolex at Walmart.

If you ever want to reach out, please contact us at dejavu.com/feedback and we will be more than happy to take all ideas and considerations into account.

SJG, of all people, confirmed that you really are Deja Vu (and with his sky high credibility, I'm buying it :)... which, as I said, is pretty awesome -- and ballsy -- to post here, so thanks for your comments.

-->"1. You are 100% right! Deja Vu’s product isn’t always for the aficionados. The target market at many clubs is college kids, one-time bachelor parties, etc. This is a drastically larger market than the “aficionados.”"

Yep -- agreed. From the point of view of an aficionado forum, I'm sure you can see that that's not the customer experience we're looking for. A chain that's mostly for college kids, bachelor parties, it's-our-one-boys-night-out-per-year-woooo! style crowd isn't going to have the customer experience we're after. To the extent that this is a zero-sum game -- in SF, for example, DV has all but one club, so our choices are that club, or the corporate DV experience everywhere else -- DV's dominance is not to our advantage.

In any case, the feedback link is appreciated. I'm a DV customer, by virtue of being in SF and not having much of a choice, but I've managed to figure out which clubs and shifts cater to me (as a PL, not as twice-a-year customer) at least a little, versus which don't at all.

@Vu then explain to us how other corporate entities such as Ricks and Spearmint Rhino are able to reach multiple target markets and their bottom line actually percentage wise beats your margins to pieces, not speaking from any experience with your product just looking at P & L statements and such SEC filings that are used commonly to do due diligence by investors ?

Dude, you are such a grouch. Why do you need to be so hostile?

Flagooner, your place must have been great!

A lot of what has happened in SF is I am sure driven by an insane real estate market. DV has gotten clubs when there were economic down turns, and likely clubs would have otherwise closed.

And it is also because the city did close Pink Diamonds, so it no longer provides lightening rod protection for other operators.

You or I can say that a club owner should not sell out, but unless we want to own it, then what we say is pointless.


Vu writes,

" The target market at many clubs is college kids, one-time bachelor parties, etc. "

Yes, and so this is still very class based. DV tends to draw whiter, younger, and more middle-class dancers. These are girls who believe that the club rules make it safer and make their income larger. And this is true, with some clientele and so long as there is no more off the hook competition.

But more experienced dancers know that they can get more money with aggressive front room friendliness. No house cut, and most guys will give them something. And then this is also what is likely to result in a front room makeout sessions, followed by FS-ITC.

But not all clients really want this, or are ready for it. And especially when there is no more raunchy competition, the club owners can get more money by keeping it more regulated. We really don't have any basis to complain about this, unless we are willing to open some competition.

And yes, DV is a larger target for LE and for lawsuits. They do have to be more careful.

I say that we need to start making new types of clubs, not to compete with DV, but to give the aficionados more of what we want, and also to re-introduce competition from the more off-the-hook end.

Remember, DV has a place in TJ, spending $4 Meg to get it going and they don't regulate the women. So it will tend to be always a girl on your lap, ramming her tongue into your mouth, and then asking for fitcha or arriba. DV runs this. They have no ideological commitment to clip joints, only to making money.

So I am not saying to go to DV Clubs. I'm just saying that there is no reason to be beating up on them and dissing them. And this is not how I had seen it when I joined this forum. My view has changed.

If we want better options, then we need to figure out how to create them, and then do it ourselves.

SJG

Ginger Baker's Air Force (Jazz and Rock, 1970) Full Show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe9DA8pO…

Chicago - Full Concert - 07/21/70 - Tanglewood (OFFICIAL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oAoSZ2y…

Chicago Old Days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey1D4mAR…

Boz Live 2004
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wNKQ7RR…

TwentyFive, Could you show us what financial statements you are looking at? Unless a company is publicly traded, they don't have to disclose much of anything.

DV is likely fairly far extended, its money still going into expansion, more clubs, and $4 Meg for TJ.

I have no knowledge of Ricks and Spearmint. I do not have any info to say that they are other than "wanna dance" clip joints. The issue, as I have tried to push it, is the front room friendliness restriction. In a club with no rules, it will tend to result in front room makeout sessions. That is the most certain way of getting a girl opened up for great back room experiences.

In a no rules club, really nothing prevents this. And not having committed to the back room, it is not very hard to get it to go that way with a girl.

But the clip joint approach prohibits this and so it is just "wanna dance", and what you get is basically bullshit. Buying dances is after all a chump's game.

Can you give any specific info about the practices in this Ricks and in Spearmint? Any reason to say that they can meet the expectations of an aficionado clientele better than DV?

And remember, with a lot of this stuff Vu is never going to be able to say anything.

Subra, I had thought it was a zero sum game, as you say. Either a club can be a Pink Diamonds, or an orgy club, OR it will get turned into a DV 'wanna dance' clip joint. But fact is, San Francisco is an extremely tough place to operate, the real estate prices. 2008 was a real melt down. Clubs likely would have closed if DV didn't grab them up.

If people want to open more clubs, where are they?

I say we should open more clubs, but of a very very different type so they get around most of the rules and are much harder to crack. Membership, smaller, cheaper to start, and combining the best features of a Strip Club and an AMP together.

SJG

Jeff Healey, and I love this black girl who sings background
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCaL_v2E…

The front room makeout session is the Philosopher's Stone. Its how TJ runs. The makeout session is what AAMPs offer that AMPs don't. Its how you get a girl opened up for real intimacy and really letting go.

Our Latina Escorts do it, as they sometimes did in the underground clubs.

Though the girl might be totally surprised, I can usually make it go like that in AMPs.

I believe it was like that for Countryman in TJ.

AMP girls who have wanted me to be seeing them outside always let it go that way.

It makes all the difference. Even before I learned here about TJ, I knew that. In our totally strict no touching clubs, it still happens when a girl wants to line up immediate OTC.

In many situations I have seen, when a girl is trying to make something happen, she wants results, she goes to DFKing. Just how it works.

What happens in the front room determines how good the back room will be. I think this should be obvious.

But frat boys and hipsters probably don't want to get that intimate with a stripper, to them she is just an object, a source of LDKs, a FemBot.

SJG

So Vu, you write:

"
You are 100% right! Deja Vu’s product isn’t always for the aficionados. The target market at many clubs is college kids, one-time bachelor parties, etc. This is a drastically larger market than the “aficionados.”
"

So thank you for posting here on TUSCL. I had not previously understood before what all was at hand. I had not understood how many San Francisco clubs would likely have closed due to high rents.

So we accept that the sole obligation of a corporation and its executives is to make money for the share holders.

And we accept that aficionados are only a small portion of the market.

But consider here also that a long established tactic in American business is to segment the market.

So this is why General Motors long ran five different divisions, differing mostly in image. And this is why the entire auto industry loved Ted Koppel and kept him on the air. Whereas they could advertise one type of vehicle with NFL games, they had Koppel bring them a very different market segment.

So we know that DV has a whole range of business models. And I have always seen this as its strength. Its that professionalism which DV brings when it takes over the management of a mom and pop strip club.

So how about yet another business model, one for the aficionados?

Some background here, going back a could of decades, in San Francisco it was well known that the North Beach Clubs, including DV Centerfolds, were for business travelers and tourists. They were for people coming from more conservative areas of the country, and looking to names like The Condor, and like DV, as the sign posts to guide them

But for the local regulars there was Market St. Cinema, New Century, and MBOT.

Spectator Magazine was how we all stayed informed.

Okay, so now things have changed, DV runs most all the clubs, maybe really all of them soon.

So how about one for the aficionados. And since this is a market not now being served well in San Francisco, serving it should bring in more money for the shareholders and it should help keep more clubs open in the face of high rents.

So of course this needs to be a no alcohol club, as those are subject to less forms of regulation. And as this is an experiment, it might be a smaller club.

So it should be unbranded, and it should not use any name associated with DV.

So DV has three no alcohol clubs right next to each other on Broadway. From my perspective, mostly via online, they look to be the same.

Is this the best use of the share holder's money?

As I remember, they aren't even open during the day time.

So if a new business model was introduced to reach an under served market segment, then that could very well bring in more revenue and also bring enough patronage to warrant daytime operations.

TO BE CONTINUED

SJG

Also a new post here, about who is a PL, coming:
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…

They say that Ginger Baker was the first one to be using an expanded drum kit - full album
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cte9Bk_f…

Continuing from above:

So then to create this new business model, it should be at a club which does not use a name associated with DV's other clubs. And probably it should be a smaller club. So I believe that two of those smaller DV's on Broadway meet this requirement.

The dancers, they might emphasize Latinas and Blacks, but they should also come from all racial and ethnic groups. Mostly its just whoever wants to work there. This not only reaches a new market segment, it gives the benefits of dancer segmentation too.

So it should have enclosed VIP rooms. And as at many of the much loved historical SF clubs there was also a collective VIP room. Having this would be nice.

So then what though is the real difference? Mostly it comes down to the layout and the furnishings. It is designed to support dancers being able to sit with customers and to sit on laps.

So I don't think bar stools are that good, nor is the immediate stage side seating.

So I have seen pictures of places which for the second row of seating, they have these double wide high back boxes. So just one row back from the stage side stools, you have these high back wide seats, love seats if you will.

So this is not some roped off or special fee area for dances, it is part of the main seating.

And then knowing that these clubs are small, the way then to walk around the stage is behind these seats. So probably the bar stools along the walls would have to go.

The stage is less important, and any roped off couches are no longer needed.

So a girl could sit with a customer and there would be no house cut.

This place would not have alcohol, but i guess it could have the SoCal style fruit drink hustle.

So as far as front room tips, that would be entirely between the dancer and the customer, and mostly they are just left alone.

This would not be depriving DV of money, as it reaches a new market segment, currently undeserved. And front room friendliness does not deprive the house either. Rather it is how dancers get customers into the VIP rooms.

And we know that comparatively speaking, San Francisco is still fairly loose. And I think failure to capitalize on this is what our buffs are complaining about. I think it also is penalizing share holders too.

No one is San Francisco is going to seriously try and say that kissing is illegal.

SJG

Addendum, also another good thing would be to let dancers come and go as they please. The way I have seen this work is just not to have schedules. So they show up when the want to show up, they leave when they please.

So any concerns about loss of revenue for the house are remedied by just having more dancers on the roster. And so then remember that this is a self select group, who have opted for this business model of club, as opposed to the others. So DV would also get this benefit of taking on dancers who might not work so well at their other clubs.

It just makes it simpler to have no schedules, less head butting with dancers. They know what the demand level will be, and they also know how many other dancers are likely to be there. So it does work out, I have seen this.

To me it is more of a Latino style of club. But it works.

Some want to be there as many hours as possible, and they are hard workers. Others just want to be there for small time intervals. Either way, it works out.

You might call this new business model, "Local Regulars".

SJG

Who is a Pathetic Loser?
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…

Ginger Baker - first to play with an expanded drum kit - full album
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Deja vu is for chumps!

Trying to be polite and not seeing them as the enemy, what you are saying is what they have already admitted to.

SJG

So I've got three posts above delineating this Local Regulars Business Model, a way which DV could make more money for its share holders.

And we should acknowledge DV, because without them, after this 2008 meltdown, so many SF clubs could have gone the way of Real Estate Developers, and the lots used for condos.

So let me offer one more idea about the Local Regulars business model. It is a settled matter, Dianne Fienstein tried to convict Jim and Artie Mitchell in the early 80's, but she failed. So no one in San Francisco is going to get jailed over consensual adult feel ups. So have a place, ass display stations, feel up stations, where a guy can approach a dancer standing up, and what happens between them is between them. It is the TJ model, an excellent way to show good will with some money and get friendly with a dancer. And have some open wall space, as backing yourself a against a wall and fraternizing with a dancer is also good. Remember, everyone is of legal age.

So okay, lets hear what people think. Should we re-write the 4 posts, and submit them as an article? Submit them on DV's web site?

Founder, tag line idea: "originator of the Local Regulars business model".

SJG

Farm 1971
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WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

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So we have been challenged here to make recommendations to Deja Vu. So I want to refine what has already been posted and then solicit more discussion on it to the ends that we might have a collective recommendation to submit:

*****************************************************

So first of all, I want to thank Vu for posting here. He wrote:

"
You are 100% right! Deja Vu’s product isn’t always for the aficionados. The target market at many clubs is college kids, one-time bachelor parties, etc. This is a drastically larger market than the “aficionados.”
"

So thank you for posting here on TUSCL. I had not previously understood before what all was at hand. I had not understood how many San Francisco clubs would likely have closed due to high rents.

So we accept that the sole obligation of a corporation and its executives is to make money for the share holders.

And we accept that aficionados are only a small portion of the market.

But consider here also that a long established tactic in American business is to segment the market.

So this is why General Motors long ran five different divisions, differing mostly in image. And this is why the entire auto industry loved Ted Koppel and kept him on the air. Whereas they could advertise one type of vehicle with NFL games, they had Koppel bring them a very different market segment.

So we know that DV has a whole range of business models. And I have always seen this as its strength. Its that professionalism which DV brings when it takes over the management of a mom and pop strip club.

So how about yet another business model, one for the aficionados?

Some background here, going back a could of decades, in San Francisco it was well known that the North Beach Clubs, including DV Centerfolds, were for business travelers and tourists. They were for people coming from more conservative areas of the country, and looking to names like The Condor, and like DV, as the sign posts to guide them

But for the local regulars there was Market St. Cinema, New Century, and MBOT.

Spectator Magazine was how we all stayed informed.

Okay, so now things have changed, DV runs most all the clubs, maybe really all of them soon.

So how about one for the aficionados. And since this is a market not now being served well in San Francisco, serving it should bring in more money for the shareholders and it should help keep more clubs open in the face of high rents.

So of course this needs to be a no alcohol club, as those are subject to less forms of regulation. And as this is an experiment, it might be a smaller club.

So it should be unbranded, and it should not use any name publicly associated with DV.

So DV has three no alcohol clubs right next to each other on Broadway. From my perspective, mostly via online, they look to be the same.

Is this the best use of the share holder's money?

As I remember, they aren't even open during the day time.

So if a new business model were to be introduced to reach an under served market segment, then that could very well bring in more revenue and also bring enough patronage to warrant daytime operations.

So then to create this new business model, it should be at a club which does not use a name associated with DV's other clubs. And probably it should be a smaller club. So I believe that two of those smaller DV's on Broadway meet this requirement.

The dancers, they might emphasize Latinas and Blacks, but they should also come from all racial and ethnic groups. Mostly its just whoever wants to work there. This not only reaches a new market segment, it gives the benefits of dancer segmentation too.

So it should have enclosed VIP rooms. And as at many of the much loved historical SF clubs there was also a collective VIP room. Having this would be nice.

So then what though is the real difference? Mostly it comes down to the layout and the furnishings. It is designed to support dancers being able to sit with customers and to sit on laps.

So I don't think bar stools are that good, nor is the immediate stage side seating.

So I have seen pictures of places which for the second row of seating, they have these double wide high back boxes. So just one row back from the stage side stools, you have these high back wide seats, love seats if you will.

So this is not some roped off or special fee area for dances, it is part of the main seating.

And then knowing that these clubs are small, the way then to walk around the stage is behind these seats. So probably the bar stools along the walls would have to go. Or, these high back double wide seats could be adapted from restaurant style booths and just along the outer perimeter. Either way.

The stage is less important, and so it could be made smaller, and any roped off couches are no longer needed.

So a girl could sit with a customer and there would be no house cut.

This place would not have alcohol, but i guess it could have the SoCal style fruit drink hustle.

So as far as front room tips, that would be entirely between the dancer and the customer, and mostly they are just left alone.

This would not be depriving DV of money, as it reaches a new market segment, currently undeserved. And front room friendliness does not deprive the house either. Rather it is how dancers get customers into the VIP rooms.

And we know that comparatively speaking, San Francisco is still fairly loose. And I think failure to capitalize on this is what our buffs are complaining about. I think it also is penalizing share holders too.

No one is San Francisco is going to seriously try and say that kissing is illegal.

Addendum, also another good thing would be to let dancers come and go as they please. The way I have seen this work is just not to have schedules. So they show up when the want to show up, they leave when they please.

So any concerns about loss of revenue for the house are remedied by just having more dancers on the roster. And so then remember that this is a self select group, who have opted for this business model of club, as opposed to the others. So DV would also get this benefit of taking on dancers who might not work so well at their other clubs.

It just makes it simpler to have no schedules, less head butting with dancers. They know what the demand level will be, and they also know how many other dancers are likely to be there. So it does work out, I have seen this.

To me it is more of a Latino style of club. But it works.

Some will want to be there as many hours as possible, and they are hard workers. Others just want to be there for small time intervals. Either way, it works out.

You might call this new business model, "Local Regulars".

And we should acknowledge DV, because without them, after this 2008 meltdown, so many SF clubs could have gone the way of Real Estate Developers, and the lots used for condos.

So let me offer one more idea about the Local Regulars business model. It is a settled matter, Dianne Fienstein tried to convict Jim and Artie Mitchell in the early 80's, but she failed. So no one in San Francisco is going to get jailed over consensual adult feel ups. So have a place, ass display stations, feel up stations, where a guy can approach a dancer standing up, and what happens between them is between them. It is the TJ model, an excellent way to show good will with some money and get friendly with a dancer. And have some open wall space, as backing yourself a against a wall and fraternizing with a dancer is also good. Remember, everyone is of legal age.

***************************************

So okay, lets hear what people think, before we complete this and submit it on DV's web site.

Founder, tag line idea: "originator of the Local Regulars business model".

SJG

Marxism 101: How Capitalism is Killing Itself with Dr. Richard Wolff
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Farm 1971
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I think it’s a nice enough idea, SJG.

But a club that encourages lower priced extras/more mileage than the surrounding area is going to drive out some dancers. You were correct to mention blacks and Latinas, as they do tend to charge less than white dancers. However, as demographics change in the US, I’m not too sure how long that will be around. (As least relative to PL income)

For example, there is the beloved Follies in Atlanta. First, the white dancers left the club to work elsewhere. And now that Follies is getting to be more popular and have more attention, the prices are rising (according to some on here.)

The best club for PLers, I predict, is a constantly changing thing. And it’s almost impossible for a place to stay “good” in a bubble forever. From what I’ve heard, the longest lasting is maybe Detroit area clubs.

I’m not sure a corporate executive can recreate such conditions in every club nationwide.

No interest in helping DV improve, as Mr Deja Vu alluded to, he is doing just fine and his clubs are not for everybody. He wants to give me a high paying job, I'll have LDK training and any dancer that overcharges will be shown the fucking door

@sjg this would be an excellent business model like tj you could go around and pick your own chica or dancer and would be less pushy want a dance constant push that deja vu does! I know the deja vu in lexington sucks because one they employ all 18 19 year old dancers its all about the 20 dollar very low mileage dances! No lady sitting with you or very little conservation! Sjg i think you have some great ideas! I think you should definitely send it! Because i was able to pic my own chica found my atf l! Local regular business model is okay in my book

SJG: Your laser focus on "front room action" is admirable, but IMO mostly your own thing. My interest in front-room kissing a high volume extras girl is 0, gross just thinking about it. Having been part of the local PL community for decades, I don't see any reason to think there'd be a ton of interest in the club you're describing, beyond you. I mean, you're obviously always free to make your suggestion to DV, but clubs that really appealed to aficionados, like MBOT and CH, ran on a completely, totally different model than what you're describing. Even MSC, with a Follies-like "high volume 5s and 6s" model, was merely driven by low priced extras and nothing more, not front room action or anything like that

The formula for a great aficionado's SC is not too hard: attractive girls plus mileage, at a price that is not outrageous (although prices are never low for this combination). Until MBOT imploded after it got hit with the consent decree in 2007, it was not just the best club in the city, but arguably the country ... hell, arguably, ever in the US.

My advice is simple: since DV now owns MBOT, if they are *not* subject to the consent decree anymore, that means they can re-structure the completely outrageous fee structure -- which I'll assure you is the reason we all abandoned that place from 2007 onwards. Decent fees would be enough to get the local aficionado crowd streaming back to it, which will draw hotter strippers, which will draw more local PLs, etc. If they are still subject to the consent decree, I imagine their hands must be tied on the fee structure, and we're just fucked

For that matter, Centerfolds has always had potential to be the next MBOT ... and it is not subject to any wacky consent decree, and already has decent-looking girls and booths. Put the place under strong management, with a fee structure that isn't outrageous (which it is, currently), remove the cameras, and I'll assure you, that's where we're all going ... at least those of us PLs who still go to strip clubs, after so many bad SC years.

Nicespice,

DV has many different business models which it uses per metro. It has alcohol clubs which are more tightly regulated, and it is has no alcohol clubs. It has the different skin levels. And they have branded and unbranded clubs. And they have clubs with food. Some of the clubs most liked on TUSCL are unbranded DV. And then they have clubs for tourists.

With this "Local Regulars" business model, there is nothing built into it which makes anything cheaper. Rather, there will just likely be more front room fraternizing.

And as far as who works there, it is just who ever wants to. That is the way the industry is, there are second and third tier clubs. And these don't get the fraternity and bachelor parties. These get local regulars, and the money goes further. All I am really suggesting is that they lighten way up on the front room restrictions, and at one of there SF clubs only.

Pistola,

The San Francisco strip club scene has been destroyed. I used to blame DV. Now I don't see it that way anymore. DV is just there to make money for its shareholders. Without DV some of these clubs would likely have closed and the property re-developed for condos. I am simply suggesting a little deviation for them, which should actually make more money for their share holders by serving a market segment with just one of their many clubs, one which is not now well served.

Countryman,

I am very glad that you had such a good experience in Tijuana. And I am glad that you continue to tell about it here, because it helps people to understand the issues. DV cannot admit to knowledge of anything which would get them into trouble. There are various accounts of how far things actually go in the booths in their clubs. I am not really suggesting any change there, only to the front room rules. You can always walk up to a girl and try to engage with her in a DV club. At bottom, she'll be getting money out of you. The issue is how far the front room engagement can go. DV has lots of clubs in lots of places. But the critical limitation is always on front room friendliness. And this is important as that is the biggest determinant of the quality of what might ensue in the back room, and also in how easy it would be to get a girl out the front door.

What they do does seem to have a lot to do with how much competition they are facing. And the lack of competition, due to zoning rules making it hard to open more clubs, and due to the high rents, in San Francisco are the root of the present problem.

Subraman,

Well, front room action is what determines the quality of the back room experience. I'm glad people from TJ are posting about the makeout sessions. That is the place to establish intimate rapport with a girl and see if you and she can get along, in the front room. And we have now lots of people coming back from TJ with their heads still in the clouds, as they say, ruined for US clubs.

Guys go to TJ for a reason. They may not be good about explaining what that reason is, but there has to be such a reason.

And then there is a great deal of reporting in reviews about US Club front room DFKing, and also back room DFKing. Some guys just don't want to see it.

At the dives of dives, most of the girls will not refuse this, and many even encourage it. Otherwise they lack any real ability to close and get the guy into the back room.

With the girls I've known who have worked at MSC, and who liked it, if you tried to kiss her, she would just love it.

A club management does not have that much say so over the looks of the girls or the pricing. They mostly just have to let what happens happen. But on the whole, the more conducive it is to front room friendliness, the better it will work out. A lot of it is monkey see monkey do.

And as far as what fees the house charges, that has a lot to do with the rent, and then just how much business is brought in. It also comes down to the level of competition.

FWIW, DV insists that in TJ they do not regulate the women or try to collect arriba fees of any type. They just depend on cover, drinks, and just how many people are brought in the front door.

Over all, front room friendliness is what makes it happen. It shuts off the brain, blood no longer makes it up that high.

"Centerfolds has always had potential to be the next MBOT"

By that I assume you mean just a large nice building, and nice looking girls. Okay, but Centerfolds is the worst of their clip joints. It is like this because they regulate the women the most tightly. There may actually be no limits in the VIP/ Fantasy Rooms, but there are extreme limits in the front room. So what you get in booths and the VIP Rooms is already highly compromised from the start. It is more fantasy than delivery.

Well, thank you all for posting. I'm going to wait a while for more comments, then write it up again and see if anyone else wants to sign on to it.

I also think it important to develop a new venue type, to restore competition in San Francisco.

SJG

Farm 1971
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WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

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^^^^^^^ TrollWarnBot works for me now, and I am sending him on his largest project to date, inspecting and ranking all of the DV clubs nation wide, to see how well the are meeting the needs of the Local Regulars Market Segment.

SJG

Carmen
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