I've been going to clubs for only eight years and have always wondered how have they changed over the years. Are there any long time club goers who have any thoughts on that? I've talked to a few dancers and club employees who have worked in clubs a long time. What I have heard from them about the customers is that clubs used to be more crowded and this generation of guys don't go out as much. Also that there used to be more single middle aged white guys and now there are more groups of young guys. The clubs had stricter dress codes and played less rap. The girls had less tattoos and piercings and worked together better. The club managers watched out for the girls more and dealt harder with rude abusive customers. I haven't been going to strip clubs long enough to have personally noticed any big changes in the time I've been going.
I started clubbing in 2000 at the tail-end of the historic 90s bull-market an yeah the clubs were packed and lots of people buying dances vs hanging-out just watching - in good clubs a good dancer's biggest issue was being able to get to all the guys that wanted dances.
The '08 recession was a game changer and the economy although recovered has not been red hot since.
Add to that the proliferation of camming, and sugar-daddy websites and online escorts, and strip clubs have more stiff competition for the mongers' $$$ than in the past - today mongers have more options and more options that often give them better mileage/bang for the buck
There was a time when Chris Rock was right, there was no sex in the champagne room. The mileage options in clubs, at least in some parts of the country, has gone up every decade for 30-40 years. Maybe we’ve finally reached peak mileage.
There are several threads on TUSCL about the decline of clubs. Another central one is that clubs used to be common in decrepit downtowns. Cities have been trying to reinvest and gentrify, chasing clubs out of formerly neglected areas. Zoning makes it tough to open a new club.
When I started going to SCs in Atlanta 30 years ago, I don't think any of them had private dancing rooms, i.e. rooms that one couple went in to. The VIP rooms at my favorite clubs back then (pre-mob Gold Club and Taj Mahal) were not private - they were just separate so that you had some space to breathe away from the elbow to elbow crowd on the floor, got better service from waitresses, and dancers would come hang out more, especially if you let them drink the champagne you had to buy to get in the room.
The rooms always had more comfortable seating, the girls could sit in your lap, and even do a little lap dancing while naked (but never like true lap dance clubs).
To the best of my recollection, when the mob guy took over Gold Club and remodeled, adding private rooms where sex could take place, that kicked off the addition of private VIP rooms in other clubs around town.
In the 80s and 90s nearly every $1 I spent in a strip club ended up being expensed to the company I worked for. Well, maybe 80% of it. There would be a few times I'd go by myself (especially when I RIL'd for a JS69 style red head at Gold Club who had also been on the cover of a Playboy Lingerie issue). Customers in the big clubs were almost always in groups, so I imagine they were also spending company money. I always felt out of place when I was in a club by myself.
In the "hasn't changed" category, table dances have been $10 for all 30 years.
In comparison, the typical 1 hr rate for an escort has gone up from $150 in the 80s (I remember the uproar on TBD and TER when rates started going over $200) to $300 today (with lots of variation then and now).
Oh, also forgot to mention, that in 80s and 90s Atlanta had a whole bunch of "lingerie modeling" studios, usually in close proximity to strip clubs. These studios provided what seems to be the typical "extras in VIP" activities that are talked about today. Don't know if these went away when extras became available in the SCs, or if extras moved into the SCs because these went away.
Here's an idea of how it was. We all know of Tootsie's these days. One of the premier strip clubs in the US.
How Tootsie's was when I started going.
It was a small club located about a mile away from it's present location. It was about 186 St and NW 7th Ave. In that club, the dancers would walk around asking for quarters for the jukebox. Don't recall any "private" dances, but would get a quick "hands off" dance at your seat for the quarters. A couple of co-workers and I would go after work. I didn't go often as it was about 45 miles from my home.
Later, they expanded to included a shop next door. Only went there a time or two. About the only difference I recall is that notes replaced coins.
The building where they are now located was build as a places called, ironically, BJ Wholesalers. I and aforementioned co-workers and I installed their computer systems. Was quite surprising to see it become Tootsie's, much as it is today.
Still don't go there often as the 80+ mile round trip isn't worth it to me. Been to a couple of meet ups we had and also went on a visit by vincemichaels.
Fantasia (Richmond Hill, near Toronto Ontario)
Babes (near Richmond Hill; Ajax? Brampton? I dunno ... Ontario)
Roman's Babies (Welland, Ontario)
Tanga, Seven Seas (Tampa FL)
Pink Pony (Memphis TN)
These places (and many others) were locations of great enjoyment for me. I can never quite peg down what it is that causes a club to fall apart, get shut down, get raided, become less than excellent ... sometimes it's just dancer attrition, as far as I can determine.
@joc13
Good point about the lingerie-modeling studios. Tampa used to have a lot of those, too; but now they're all closed. The services that they offered do seem (now that you mention it) to have been supplanted by similar activities in the private rooms of strip clubs.
@clubber
LOL ROFL at "BJ Wholesalers" oh shit that made my night :)
I'm disappointed that the economic strength of recovery now that the '08 recession is effectively over, hasn't led to recovery in the strip-club industry. I really like the angle or niche which strip-clubs occupy in the adult-oriented and sex-services fields. Personally, I cannot experience the same enjoyment from internet escorts, from web-cam sites, or from "massage" places. The thing about strip-clubs is, that you INTERACT WITH THE GIRL while you are trying to decide whether or not to get services from the girl. You look, you observe, you see whether you have good chemistry with her. This doesn't happen at a typical massage parlor, where you are "assigned" the next in line by the mama-san; this can't happen over the internet; and even if you do select an escort who seems to be "your type" the interaction doesn't have any of the foreplay and the sense of impending excitement, because the deal is already sealed. You'd have to book an escort for a LOT of time, to be willing to simply forego jumping in the sack immediately, IMO; this large amount of time, and its high cost, more than offset the otherwise advantageous ratio of price-to-service that escorts tend to hold over strip-clubs.
There is at least one FBSM place in Atlanta (used to be dozens) that has white girls, will send pics (as accurate as "glamour" pics ever are), and takes appointments. Some of the lingerie studios would tell you who was working if you called, and took appointments.
Before VIP rooms became common in strip clubs, I'd make an appointment at a massage or lingerie place, go to the SC for some fluffing, then go get my HJ/TJ/BJ (depending on where I went and who I saw; like a lot of SCs, the premium for CFS just didn't interest me). Was fairly common to see a car in the parking lot you just saw at the SC parking lot. In the case of Cheetah, there were two within walking distance.
Yeah but why are ALL the pay-for-play women so visually unappealing now? It doesn't matter where, it can be either at strip clubs OR at the last few remaining lingerie-modeling "studio" (rub and tug, or just tug) places ... I look in on there being no "hot young honeys" anywhere in the adult services industry any more. I don't understand that part. It doesn't make sense, relative to the rest of the general demographic historical shift that we're discussing.
It's really quite simple. If you're hot now, you can make money just by being hot, and not having to touch any dudes at all. Between webcamming and Instagram/Snapchat, hot girls are monetizing their looks and getting paid major $$$ without having to deal with us. And there's no legal issues with it, no worries about getting arrested for prostitution or getting an STD. For the girls, there's literally no downside.
Your comments about why strip clubs are the best for your entertainment dollar are exactly aligned with mine. I agree with every word you wrote. It's just that Strip Clubs may be going the way of adult movie theaters. In my neck of the woods, I remember the city of Santa Ana spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to eliminate its two adult theatres. Never worked. They did close down, but only because technology (videotapes) made them obsolete. We may be seeing the same thing with strip clubs, at least as far as the "hot" dancers availability is concerned.
@BookGuy Papi and Chili nailed it, I think. Lots of other options for hotties to make money off their looks.
Also, society is extending "childhood" (defined as the period of time during which a child's needs are being primarily met by the parents), so there aren't as many 18-25 year olds who have to take care of themselves who then turn to selling their body cause it's the only skills/assets they have. By the time they finally get forced off mom and dad's health insurance, car insurance, the high school/college car dies, mom and dad are ready to downsize, etc their potential new whore shine has already worn off.
I agree with you about the benefit of getting to meet girls in strip clubs before you set up p4p activity. When I was heavily involved in the Atlanta escort scene, we used to have monthly meet-and-greet parties. They were great ways to meet new girls before making appts. Met some of my favs at these parties. One of the reasons I got out of the scene was when these parties dropped off and stopped happening all together.
20 years ago I went to my club in the afternoon of Wed before Thanksgiving and the place was packed wall to wall with customers. This year I did the same thing, and the club was maybe 10% full. There's no doubt times have changed...
I would agree that the reasons are that hot girls have more options and when you get to really know dancers you discover NONE of them really like the job. The good ones like the freedom and money, but they'd rather be taken care of at home than have to dance.
Cam girls make as much as dancers, and it's a LOT easier for the girls. I know an ex-dancer cam girl and all she does is sit in front of her cam while people send her tips. She only does "shows" in private but she's pretty enough to get away with it. When she was dancing in clubs, she had to really hustle for the same money.
I had no idea that "camming" was such a big deal. And how do they make money off Instagram? Here I am, I look good, thank you for your time. Where's the monetization?
LOL @joc13 "... their potential new whore shine has already worn off." OK yeah, there's a point there that I hadn't thought about, as well.
So we've got some consensus, the internet killed it and the girls are older before they're desperate. These are the problems plaguing the strip-club industry.
Now then, what are we going to DO about these problems?
@Book Guy: There are now premium channels for certain social media places, and sites like "onlyfans" allows a chick to upload more risque photos/short vids and her fans pay a monthly fee for access (often $20/mo). Some of these chicks who have 500,000+ followers only need 1-2% of those to pay for the premium stuff and they make quite a living just posting selfies. That doesn't even count the product placement endorsements some of these girls have, or Patreon or other group funding sites.
There are so many new delivery systems in play now to get virtually anything you want if you know here to look. And it's only just scratching the surface.
They sponsor products and feature the products in their posts. Can be big $ if they have enough followers.
Another way is "private Snapchat". You pay a monthly fee to get/stay on the friend list of a specific Snapchat account. You get the illusion the girl is taking sexy (nude, sometime sex acts) pics just for you. Industry stats show that guys are buying personal Snapchat subs at $10-$30/month at a much higher clip than they bought membership to a one-girl web site, I guess cause they succumb to the illusion of personal attention.
Chili Palmer - re those 2 porn theaters in Santa Ana. One was owned by the Mitchell Bros and the other by my best friend. It was a mom 7 pop business and LE pretty much left them alone. His wife sold it when he died in his early 30's.
I’ve found many changes in clubs over the years. Some places have gotten shut down due to too much violence (but it probably didn’t help that the club offered FS). Some other clubs have upped the level of extras. Others have changed around to provide additional levels between air dances - lap dances - and then vip.
Maybe it's b/c I'm better informed now via TUSCL, but it seems many localities have become anti strip-clubs and have weakened if not killed the strip-club scene resulting in good SC cities/areas seemingly the exception
Detroit is still going with clubs, but its definitely not the same lots of small clubs have closed. Hell someone spent a small fortune building a Scores and it didn't even last a year. Like people mentioned you can be a hot girl and not dance now. If you build an IG premium following you can make a pretty decent living.
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The '08 recession was a game changer and the economy although recovered has not been red hot since.
Add to that the proliferation of camming, and sugar-daddy websites and online escorts, and strip clubs have more stiff competition for the mongers' $$$ than in the past - today mongers have more options and more options that often give them better mileage/bang for the buck
The rooms always had more comfortable seating, the girls could sit in your lap, and even do a little lap dancing while naked (but never like true lap dance clubs).
To the best of my recollection, when the mob guy took over Gold Club and remodeled, adding private rooms where sex could take place, that kicked off the addition of private VIP rooms in other clubs around town.
In the 80s and 90s nearly every $1 I spent in a strip club ended up being expensed to the company I worked for. Well, maybe 80% of it. There would be a few times I'd go by myself (especially when I RIL'd for a JS69 style red head at Gold Club who had also been on the cover of a Playboy Lingerie issue). Customers in the big clubs were almost always in groups, so I imagine they were also spending company money. I always felt out of place when I was in a club by myself.
In comparison, the typical 1 hr rate for an escort has gone up from $150 in the 80s (I remember the uproar on TBD and TER when rates started going over $200) to $300 today (with lots of variation then and now).
Oh, also forgot to mention, that in 80s and 90s Atlanta had a whole bunch of "lingerie modeling" studios, usually in close proximity to strip clubs. These studios provided what seems to be the typical "extras in VIP" activities that are talked about today. Don't know if these went away when extras became available in the SCs, or if extras moved into the SCs because these went away.
How Tootsie's was when I started going.
It was a small club located about a mile away from it's present location. It was about 186 St and NW 7th Ave. In that club, the dancers would walk around asking for quarters for the jukebox. Don't recall any "private" dances, but would get a quick "hands off" dance at your seat for the quarters. A couple of co-workers and I would go after work. I didn't go often as it was about 45 miles from my home.
Later, they expanded to included a shop next door. Only went there a time or two. About the only difference I recall is that notes replaced coins.
The building where they are now located was build as a places called, ironically, BJ Wholesalers. I and aforementioned co-workers and I installed their computer systems. Was quite surprising to see it become Tootsie's, much as it is today.
Still don't go there often as the 80+ mile round trip isn't worth it to me. Been to a couple of meet ups we had and also went on a visit by vincemichaels.
Fantasia (Richmond Hill, near Toronto Ontario)
Babes (near Richmond Hill; Ajax? Brampton? I dunno ... Ontario)
Roman's Babies (Welland, Ontario)
Tanga, Seven Seas (Tampa FL)
Pink Pony (Memphis TN)
These places (and many others) were locations of great enjoyment for me. I can never quite peg down what it is that causes a club to fall apart, get shut down, get raided, become less than excellent ... sometimes it's just dancer attrition, as far as I can determine.
@joc13
Good point about the lingerie-modeling studios. Tampa used to have a lot of those, too; but now they're all closed. The services that they offered do seem (now that you mention it) to have been supplanted by similar activities in the private rooms of strip clubs.
@clubber
LOL ROFL at "BJ Wholesalers" oh shit that made my night :)
I'm disappointed that the economic strength of recovery now that the '08 recession is effectively over, hasn't led to recovery in the strip-club industry. I really like the angle or niche which strip-clubs occupy in the adult-oriented and sex-services fields. Personally, I cannot experience the same enjoyment from internet escorts, from web-cam sites, or from "massage" places. The thing about strip-clubs is, that you INTERACT WITH THE GIRL while you are trying to decide whether or not to get services from the girl. You look, you observe, you see whether you have good chemistry with her. This doesn't happen at a typical massage parlor, where you are "assigned" the next in line by the mama-san; this can't happen over the internet; and even if you do select an escort who seems to be "your type" the interaction doesn't have any of the foreplay and the sense of impending excitement, because the deal is already sealed. You'd have to book an escort for a LOT of time, to be willing to simply forego jumping in the sack immediately, IMO; this large amount of time, and its high cost, more than offset the otherwise advantageous ratio of price-to-service that escorts tend to hold over strip-clubs.
Before VIP rooms became common in strip clubs, I'd make an appointment at a massage or lingerie place, go to the SC for some fluffing, then go get my HJ/TJ/BJ (depending on where I went and who I saw; like a lot of SCs, the premium for CFS just didn't interest me). Was fairly common to see a car in the parking lot you just saw at the SC parking lot. In the case of Cheetah, there were two within walking distance.
Yeah but why are ALL the pay-for-play women so visually unappealing now? It doesn't matter where, it can be either at strip clubs OR at the last few remaining lingerie-modeling "studio" (rub and tug, or just tug) places ... I look in on there being no "hot young honeys" anywhere in the adult services industry any more. I don't understand that part. It doesn't make sense, relative to the rest of the general demographic historical shift that we're discussing.
It's really quite simple. If you're hot now, you can make money just by being hot, and not having to touch any dudes at all. Between webcamming and Instagram/Snapchat, hot girls are monetizing their looks and getting paid major $$$ without having to deal with us. And there's no legal issues with it, no worries about getting arrested for prostitution or getting an STD. For the girls, there's literally no downside.
Your comments about why strip clubs are the best for your entertainment dollar are exactly aligned with mine. I agree with every word you wrote. It's just that Strip Clubs may be going the way of adult movie theaters. In my neck of the woods, I remember the city of Santa Ana spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to eliminate its two adult theatres. Never worked. They did close down, but only because technology (videotapes) made them obsolete. We may be seeing the same thing with strip clubs, at least as far as the "hot" dancers availability is concerned.
CP
RE: BJ's. That is a true story!
Also, society is extending "childhood" (defined as the period of time during which a child's needs are being primarily met by the parents), so there aren't as many 18-25 year olds who have to take care of themselves who then turn to selling their body cause it's the only skills/assets they have. By the time they finally get forced off mom and dad's health insurance, car insurance, the high school/college car dies, mom and dad are ready to downsize, etc their potential new whore shine has already worn off.
I agree with you about the benefit of getting to meet girls in strip clubs before you set up p4p activity. When I was heavily involved in the Atlanta escort scene, we used to have monthly meet-and-greet parties. They were great ways to meet new girls before making appts. Met some of my favs at these parties. One of the reasons I got out of the scene was when these parties dropped off and stopped happening all together.
I would agree that the reasons are that hot girls have more options and when you get to really know dancers you discover NONE of them really like the job. The good ones like the freedom and money, but they'd rather be taken care of at home than have to dance.
Cam girls make as much as dancers, and it's a LOT easier for the girls. I know an ex-dancer cam girl and all she does is sit in front of her cam while people send her tips. She only does "shows" in private but she's pretty enough to get away with it. When she was dancing in clubs, she had to really hustle for the same money.
LOL @joc13 "... their potential new whore shine has already worn off." OK yeah, there's a point there that I hadn't thought about, as well.
So we've got some consensus, the internet killed it and the girls are older before they're desperate. These are the problems plaguing the strip-club industry.
Now then, what are we going to DO about these problems?
There are so many new delivery systems in play now to get virtually anything you want if you know here to look. And it's only just scratching the surface.
CP
They sponsor products and feature the products in their posts. Can be big $ if they have enough followers.
Another way is "private Snapchat". You pay a monthly fee to get/stay on the friend list of a specific Snapchat account. You get the illusion the girl is taking sexy (nude, sometime sex acts) pics just for you. Industry stats show that guys are buying personal Snapchat subs at $10-$30/month at a much higher clip than they bought membership to a one-girl web site, I guess cause they succumb to the illusion of personal attention.