Predatory Behavior--All the Rage!

I thought about starting a similar post. Because many people look down on strip clubbing, what we do is considered predatory by many people regardless of if it is or not.

There are many guys who come into a club who will grab dancers or grope dancers without permission. Because it's a strip club is it permissible? Or is it sexual assault?

Is it different once a dance starts? I always respect a dancers boundaries. If she allows me to touch I touch. But if she says something is off limits, I respect it. I may not get dances with them, but I don't hate on them for having boundaries.

There are some who go to clubs who don't respect the boundaries. That seems to fall into the assault category to me. No is still no regardless of where it happens.

Has anyone had a conversation with a dancer about this subject? I would love to hear from or resident dancers on this subject.

Somebody who is wrongfully accused can sue for libel or slander. But that costs a fortune and is beyond the ability of many ordinary people. Therefore, as a practical matter, there is no legal recourse for the average person who is wrongfully accused. Since most of these incidents seem to have occurred decades ago, a guy who is wrongfully accused usually doesn't even have the ability to prove their innocence.

Always ask what you can and can’t do? Sexual assault is the same no matter what the girls profession. Strippers are just people (maybe a bit more fucked up) with the same issues as all of us. Would you want someone coming into your job and groping you without consent all the time? I mean as a guy i wouldnt think that so bad, but what if the person revolted your was a gnarly smelly asshat? A big troll of a dude that you couldn’t stand and always grabbed your junk when saying hello and leaned in so you could retch because they smelled like death? I’ve always found being polite and nice got me farther in clubs than being a jerk. The girls talk when in the back and will not hesitate to tell others to stay away from you because you are hands-y or rude. I’ve seen many a friend be a dick because they thought they could act that way and they were not invited to any after closing parties.

I think @rh48hr said it properly when he said “no is still no - regardless of where it happens” - if a dancer says no in a club - I respect that. I’m all about extras - but I respect dancers boundaries.

I think some guys lack self control when they get highly aroused (and they drink) - so clubs provide an environment where guys might cross a line.

There are several issues that could be caused by a dancer filing a lawsuit against a customer. The suit will draw more attention to the club (which management might not want). It might draw more attention to the dancer’s activities - and past record. It could also discourage customers from coming to the club - as mongers might worry about getting sued too.

On the other side - no PL wants their name to be in the local papers with a story about them getting handsy with a dancer in VIP!

The whole allegation situation is interesting to me. Like RH said, there is certainly a line between consent and assault; from what I gather here, most PL's test the boundaries but seem to be respectful when they are set.

I'd venture to say that the most raucous behavior I've seen in clubs have been from "bachelor party" type crowds or loser drunks, who are generally not active members of this board.

I have wondered, and have been wondering more this last week, about the chances of a dancer regretting her current behavior and then making accusations in the future. It's a killjoy and unlikely, IMO, but still at the back of my mind.

With the dancer in the original post, she has become pretty angry and negative toward men (hardcore Portland feminist) in the last year whereas in the past she was always friendly and seemed to enjoy men. Two dancer friends told me they regret things they've done for money but were resigned that there was nothing they could do about it other than not do it again.

What's to keep these girls from making bad decisions for money in their hot 20's, then regretting and accusing in their 40's?

Based on the dynamics involved, it would be very hard to prove sexual assault, abuse or harassment in a strip club. Probably more so from a criminal perspective. But even in long drawn out civic suit, what could she realistically gain? She would have to convince a jury that a particular individual out of countless others (unless she sues everyone after the fact, good luck with that) caused her quantifiable trauma and pain and suffering in a he said vs. she said case. And the guy would have to have sizeable liquid assets as well for a lawyer to take the case (no pro bono public defender available for this). Having said that, i do agree about respecting a dancer's boundaries, but this environment has been and probably always will be "hostile" towards the dancer. The industry will probably end sooner than any real changes will occur. Unless a bitter dancer just wants the whole industry to go down.

What percentage of marriages occurred between co-workers during the 70s and 80s? 50%?? 70%?? Without the internet, back then, the workplace was the most target-rich environment for meeting future significant others (or even one night stand hook-ups). I can count at least 8 such love connections back then. Some I dated. Some I just fucked around with. I wonder, since I was upwardly mobile and successful if, under today's scrutiny, whether or not any of these connections could be twisted into an accusation of harassment? There was no quid pro quo. Even so . . .

Also, in the 70s and 80s, drinking alcohol during lunch was not unusual. Happy hour right after work was a super-common occurrence.

So, 35 years later, who is to say that what was unwanted sexual assault and what was somewhat intoxicated flirting that was considered appropriate for the time? If I remember correctly, the overt flirting went both ways.

I am sure some of what we are hearing about is legit and despicable. No reasonable man would support obvious harassment (i.e., blow me or else, etc.) But, I cannot help but feel some of this is opportunistic rewriting of history. They use to call it "sleeping her way up the corporate ladder." Now, on reflection, it is rape.

2017 -- Guilty upon accusation. You're fired! You're fucked!

I'm glad I'm old.

@pensionking - I experienced a similar work environment in the 80’s (when I started working in an office environment). There were many relationships that began at work, among folks recently graduated from college. Most of us understood how to handle ourselves, and we respected the boundaries, and we acted professionally at work.

However, there were folks who took things too far; a senior manager fucked his secretary in the office, a temp became the guest of honor at a gang fuck by several office guys, a secretary ordered a cake shaped like tits for a luncheon. Those actions stand out, since most folks acted professionally.

One thing that I’m thankful for is that there were no camera phones - and no video cameras - as I think young professionals - a few drinks - and cameras can make for dangerous results.

@Cashman -- I didn't think about it, but you're right -- with a camera in every pocket -- yikes!

Think about the open bar, employee-only, company Christmas parties in the banquet room of a hotel back then!

I must say, even the senior manager banging his secretary in the office, for me, isn't sexual assault, if both parties are consenting. It shouldn't matter that their pay grades differ dramatically. Who is to say she is not entitled to try to bag an exec as her future husband? Maybe it worked out, maybe it didn't. If the temp wanted a gang bang, god bless her! Good for her!

However, you'd be well advised, in the current climate, to stay away from it all now.

@pensionking - you are right! The office Christmas parties were often held at hotels with banquet facilities. Guys would book rooms in advance - so they wouldn’t drive drunk. I respect that. However, the reason for booking a room was to have a room ready when an attractive girl was ready to give it up.

I don’t have any issue with folks hooking up in the office. I think whenever a manager has a relationship with a subordinate, it can open the company up to lawsuits - from other subordinates who might perceive favorable behavior given to the other subordinate. But consent is given in both cases - and that’s fine with me.

I think we're all in agreement on consent vs. assault. Hell, even 15 years ago when I was just entering the professional work force, I was smart enough to know the work environment and not to mess with any woman from work, even at the drunken Christmas parties at fancy hotels!

I guess the situation with dancers accusing photographers struck a nerve with me since I shoot with dancers and it makes me second guess whether or not I want to be involved in that whatsoever since who knows when an accusation will come given the current environment. I already had a girl lash out at me about a month ago because I removed all of her photos from my portfolio and it pissed her off.

I had to explain that I was cutting my portfolio down to only show my absolute best work, which meant I cut 75% of my published images. I had lived up to my end of our contract, (providing 15 edited images within 2 weeks of the shoot), and that none of the images we shot together ended up making the cut, in part because she kept getting distracted by her boyfriend who was at the shoot.

At the time I wondered if she might be a problem because she kept talking about her bipolar disease, her severe depression, problems with her aunt, etc. while we were shooting. Thankfully she seemed better after a couple of texts but who knows if this will pop up again in 10 years. Yikes.

A lot of people I worked with who came of age in the 70s and 80s left spouses and married the secretaries (especially since I worked in two firms with offices in the south - this happened more often than not). I will also say that harassment didn’t happen at work. But socializing at happy hour, Xmas parties, house parties, etc. brought out the wildness in many people (both males and females). Post-work socializing seems so 80s now. They call it “networking” , usually it’s a more random meet-up group, and it specifically targets single people. What’s a middle-aged guy to do with coworkers being off-limits? So here we are.

Wouldn't it be funny if @JohnSmith was really Roy Moore? Both lawyers from the deep south, both with a penchant for teenage girls. And look at Smith's defensive post in this thread. I think it's possible.

Lock her up!
Lock her up!
Lock her up!

Some interesting insight from some of the older guys here. Thanks for sharing.

I will say this, I have noticed over the last 3 or so years, many companies I deal with have been overrun with female employees, especially females in management positions. In the past 5 years, several companies have went from male dominance (10 employees, maybe 2 female the rest male, no females in management) to the same company today having 10 employees and 6 females to 4 males, and all management is female now.

I used to think the future was, if you're a white male, everyone hates you, but now I think it's just if you're a male in general you're hated. Maybe these transgender guys are onto something? Juice, why don't you go transgender at work and see if you get promoted?!?!?!?!