OT: Continued RANK THESE PRESIDENTS/PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES
Dominic77
Cleveland, Ohio
Expanded political answer.
reference: https://www.tuscl.net/?page=post&id=5239…
7. RANK THESE PRESIDENTS/PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FROM YOUR FAVORITE TO LEAST FAVORITE. GEORGE W BUSH / DONALD TRUMP / BERNIE SANDERS / HILLARY CLINTON / BARACK OBAMA / MARCO RUBIO.
GEORGE W BUSH / BERNIE SANDERS / DONALD TRUMP / MARCO RUBIO / BARACK OBAMA / HILLARY CLINTON.
I do regret my last two votes for President. Voting for Hildebeast was a mistake. Also I was probably too quick to dismiss Mittens, despite him being a Plutocrat and that whole 47 percent comment.
President Bush valued freedom. He had a simplistic view of the world and saw the U.S. as an imperial power to export democracy. I throw him under the bus for the Iraq War, for torture, and No Child Left Behind. He appointed advisors and trusted them, some I wish President Trump would do more of, but sometimes I have to be careful what I wish for.
I don't know that U.S. or Roman style democracy works elsewhere. What foreign nations seem to want is democracies that previous administrations have worried were Socialist in style. We fought proxy wars or fostered regime changes in the 20th century to subvert that (Vietnam, Iran, Cuba). If Socialism really runs its course because of failure to generate wealth and reinvestment of capital (machinery and money) then wouldn't it have been better to let those collapse on their own rather than intervene?
Sometimes I see issues in black and white like W. Too bad he was such a neocon. But the man valued freedom, free speech, and protest. He let citizens freely protest or speak out against him all the while pointing out how great America was for people to have freedom and rights to do that.
I can overlook the democratic socialist agenda of Bernie Sanders. I do feel like there is less of a feeling that he can be bought by special interests. The issues surrounding his expensive home do worry me, like they do with Marco Rubio but for different reasons. I do feel that Mr. Sanders doesn't have thin skin, like Mr. Trump does. I do feel that Mr. Sanders understands many of us getting killed in this economy. I don't agree with the 1 percent comments. Many of the 1 percent are professionals like doctors and lawyers. The real issue, if there is one, is the 0.1 percent or the 0.01 percent. And even that isn't the real issue. The real issue is that productivity gains (since 1990 or since 1970) are only going to the top 17 percent or so. Why are the rest being left behind? How do we retool skills and market value of the human and social capital for those not taking advantage of the booming economy. Mr. Sanders is not perfect, but he's at least talking about it. He also respects gun rights. He's wrong about the minimum wage and healthcare. We need more protest candidates like him.
I like that President Trump is a New York cosmopolitan. He isn't working to subvert abortion rights for young women. He isn't working to restrict gay marriage. He respects the police and the military who keep us safe from harm. He thought he could drain the swamp. I said he couldn't be bought by special interests.
He's perhaps a compassionate conservative to a fault, like Mr. Reagan was. It's admirable that he supports Medicaid and Medicare. It's admirable that he supports aspects of the ACA (Obamacare): pre-existing conditions, no life time limits or caps, keeping Medicaid people covered. That's compassionate conservatism. It will be expensive.
I like the Mr. Trump tries to (unsuccessfully though!) strike deals with Congressional Democrats. That is something I remember Mr. Reagan doing with Congress, too.
He's a protest candidate. We need more like that.
Mr. Rubio, Mr. Obama, and Mrs. Clinton are all the establishment, do they go to the bottom.
Mr. Rubio was rushed into his candidacy. He often repeated phrases in debates, he felt like a manufactured candidate, and truthfully I let his stances on abortion bother me too much at the time but I factor this less now. If he'd had been able to verbally out-judo Mr. Trump or articulate his leadership better, he might have been ranked higher. He also had some alleged corruption issues regarding the sale of his home at above market value to a suspected lobbyist. I'm just done with lobbyists. I love his high-maintenance, former pro-cheerleader wife. I can't blame the guy there. :p I like that he was a former Cuban who hated Cuban and Soviet Socialism. We need more success stories like that. What we need less of is less bought and paid for establishment candidates.
Mr. Obama lied to us about aspects of Obamacare. He made the government less transparent than even Mr. Bush. Drone strikes? WTF? Racial and class struggles are even worse now than when he started office. He may have stabilized the economy but he bailed out banks, Wall Streets, and General Motors. I guess wish I could figure out how to better improve my situation. I don't blame him for that but many of us did ask for advice but the answer of "keep doing what you're already doing" wasn't particularly useful people not in the top 17% or not on welfare. But that's a minor complaint and personal responsibility should be bore by me. He's wrong on Globalism. He's wrong on gun control.
Hildebeast. My views on her have evolved. She's the establishment, corrupt, inappropriate actions that were probably criminal but we'll never now. She's wrong on gun control. She felt entitled to support from Mr. Sanders supporters. She used social wedge issues. She's a Globalist. Bought and paid for. She needs to go.
reference: https://www.tuscl.net/?page=post&id=5239…
reference: https://www.tuscl.net/?page=post&id=5239…
7. RANK THESE PRESIDENTS/PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FROM YOUR FAVORITE TO LEAST FAVORITE. GEORGE W BUSH / DONALD TRUMP / BERNIE SANDERS / HILLARY CLINTON / BARACK OBAMA / MARCO RUBIO.
GEORGE W BUSH / BERNIE SANDERS / DONALD TRUMP / MARCO RUBIO / BARACK OBAMA / HILLARY CLINTON.
I do regret my last two votes for President. Voting for Hildebeast was a mistake. Also I was probably too quick to dismiss Mittens, despite him being a Plutocrat and that whole 47 percent comment.
President Bush valued freedom. He had a simplistic view of the world and saw the U.S. as an imperial power to export democracy. I throw him under the bus for the Iraq War, for torture, and No Child Left Behind. He appointed advisors and trusted them, some I wish President Trump would do more of, but sometimes I have to be careful what I wish for.
I don't know that U.S. or Roman style democracy works elsewhere. What foreign nations seem to want is democracies that previous administrations have worried were Socialist in style. We fought proxy wars or fostered regime changes in the 20th century to subvert that (Vietnam, Iran, Cuba). If Socialism really runs its course because of failure to generate wealth and reinvestment of capital (machinery and money) then wouldn't it have been better to let those collapse on their own rather than intervene?
Sometimes I see issues in black and white like W. Too bad he was such a neocon. But the man valued freedom, free speech, and protest. He let citizens freely protest or speak out against him all the while pointing out how great America was for people to have freedom and rights to do that.
I can overlook the democratic socialist agenda of Bernie Sanders. I do feel like there is less of a feeling that he can be bought by special interests. The issues surrounding his expensive home do worry me, like they do with Marco Rubio but for different reasons. I do feel that Mr. Sanders doesn't have thin skin, like Mr. Trump does. I do feel that Mr. Sanders understands many of us getting killed in this economy. I don't agree with the 1 percent comments. Many of the 1 percent are professionals like doctors and lawyers. The real issue, if there is one, is the 0.1 percent or the 0.01 percent. And even that isn't the real issue. The real issue is that productivity gains (since 1990 or since 1970) are only going to the top 17 percent or so. Why are the rest being left behind? How do we retool skills and market value of the human and social capital for those not taking advantage of the booming economy. Mr. Sanders is not perfect, but he's at least talking about it. He also respects gun rights. He's wrong about the minimum wage and healthcare. We need more protest candidates like him.
I like that President Trump is a New York cosmopolitan. He isn't working to subvert abortion rights for young women. He isn't working to restrict gay marriage. He respects the police and the military who keep us safe from harm. He thought he could drain the swamp. I said he couldn't be bought by special interests.
He's perhaps a compassionate conservative to a fault, like Mr. Reagan was. It's admirable that he supports Medicaid and Medicare. It's admirable that he supports aspects of the ACA (Obamacare): pre-existing conditions, no life time limits or caps, keeping Medicaid people covered. That's compassionate conservatism. It will be expensive.
I like the Mr. Trump tries to (unsuccessfully though!) strike deals with Congressional Democrats. That is something I remember Mr. Reagan doing with Congress, too.
He's a protest candidate. We need more like that.
Mr. Rubio, Mr. Obama, and Mrs. Clinton are all the establishment, do they go to the bottom.
Mr. Rubio was rushed into his candidacy. He often repeated phrases in debates, he felt like a manufactured candidate, and truthfully I let his stances on abortion bother me too much at the time but I factor this less now. If he'd had been able to verbally out-judo Mr. Trump or articulate his leadership better, he might have been ranked higher. He also had some alleged corruption issues regarding the sale of his home at above market value to a suspected lobbyist. I'm just done with lobbyists. I love his high-maintenance, former pro-cheerleader wife. I can't blame the guy there. :p I like that he was a former Cuban who hated Cuban and Soviet Socialism. We need more success stories like that. What we need less of is less bought and paid for establishment candidates.
Mr. Obama lied to us about aspects of Obamacare. He made the government less transparent than even Mr. Bush. Drone strikes? WTF? Racial and class struggles are even worse now than when he started office. He may have stabilized the economy but he bailed out banks, Wall Streets, and General Motors. I guess wish I could figure out how to better improve my situation. I don't blame him for that but many of us did ask for advice but the answer of "keep doing what you're already doing" wasn't particularly useful people not in the top 17% or not on welfare. But that's a minor complaint and personal responsibility should be bore by me. He's wrong on Globalism. He's wrong on gun control.
Hildebeast. My views on her have evolved. She's the establishment, corrupt, inappropriate actions that were probably criminal but we'll never now. She's wrong on gun control. She felt entitled to support from Mr. Sanders supporters. She used social wedge issues. She's a Globalist. Bought and paid for. She needs to go.
reference: https://www.tuscl.net/?page=post&id=5239…
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51 comments
Anyway, I don't think Bush was philosophically a neoconservative, as you claim. He was from the social conservative wing of the party. But he did surround himself with neocons... and that mattered quite a bit, as it turned out. It doesn't make a difference, really, just splitting hairs. Also, Obama didn't technically bail out those companies, Bush did. Obama just continued the bailout, so it isn't fair to put all, or even most, of the blame on him. But he was more "into it" than Bush was, I guess.
Nobody asked me, but I would rank them this way:
Bush 2000 campaign
Imaginary Rubio presidency
Rubio 2016 campaign
Actual Trump presidency so far
Bush 2004 campaign
Obama 2008 campaign
Trump 2016 campaign
Actual Bush presidency
Actual Obama presidency
Sanders 2016 campaign
Obama 2012 campaign
Hillary Clinton 2016 campaign
Hillary Clinton 2008 campaign
Imaginary Hillary Clinton presidency
Imaginary Sanders presidency
Unfortunately, I have no idea how to rank pre-2011 Trump relative to campaign Trump and President Trump, because everything I used to agree with him about I now disagree with, and vice versa.
But if you voted for him you bear the responsibility for the mess and chaos that is happening now.
I think Lincoln said that, not PT Barnum. And I didn't vote for him, but I get your point. Just try to look past his style and personal behavior. Think about his actual policies.
Are you referring to Trump or Obama?
Division: That is basically the Democrat's platform. Instead of looking at our population as Americans it's how can we get the black vote, women's vote, Latino vote, ...
Praising Killers: the BLM movement
Refusing to stand for what’s right: the flag is what's right and he praised CK.
Try to have an open mind and not see things through the prism of what you want to see.
BLM is a separate issue, really isn't where my focus is here, Gladly discuss that issue another time not saying I totally agree with their point at all.
Praising Putin , Duarte,
Taking his sweet time denouncing David Duke, Richard Spencer, the riot in Charlottesville,
The Flag issue he made 10 times worse by starting his fight with the Basketball players for declining his invitation because he couldn't bully them into agreeing with him, and then pivoting to start a fight with the football players, it would have been a big nothing burger if he would have just shut the fuck up.
BTW the ballplayers are within their rights, and if you disagree you can bring your money elsewhere, if enough people agree with you that'll mean that our capitalist system is working, the president doesn't need to involve himself at all.
Why does he even bother getting into it the the mayor of San Juan, Puerto Rico, they are American citizens and we need to help them now,
Obama is gone any attempt to bring him up, is just an attempt to shift blame, away from who is supposed to be in charge, stop with the ceaseless scapegoating and get to work.I could go on but my focus is on the future,
I remember the past well you can say what you like, but there is a record and I don't believe history will be kind to Trump.
My comment was not an endorsement of Trump, though I did vote for him and do agree with his stance onot the anthem issue.
My point was that the quoted comment was equally descriptive of our previous impotent president.
"Obama is gone any attempt to bring him up, is just an attempt to shift blame"
Wasn't blaming Bush Obama's predominant strategy for 8 yrs?
Trump has some good ideas and I believe he's truly working for Americas interest. I for one am glad we don't have a pacifist in office right now.
oh shoot. he's allready dead.
And the anthem/flag thing... Trump is kind of winking and nodding through this. He actually mentioned in a recent meeting with activists that he is happy with the way his feud with the NFL is going (presumably because it's drawing attention away from his failures and bad luck so far). The real question is why the fuck do we even play the national anthem before a sports event anyway? It's obnoxious and grotesque. Why do we fly military jets over a baseball game? Why are there even flags and soldiers there in the first place? People have this real tribal need to find an enemy and simultaneously reinforce their group loyalties. I'm glad I don't have that need, personally.
But at the same time, what does police brutality have to do with the flag or the anthem? There is government overreach and there is racism everywhere and in every country on earth, now and forever. The fact that it exists here, too, in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, is meaningless. It just proves that people are people no matter where you go. And it shouldn't diminish the great things represented by our national symbols. Singling the US out for special blame is really stupid. This is not a uniquely racist country. It's like saying everyone in prison is a criminal... and here's one prisoner who wants to reform himself... so that makes him the worst one of all!
I would also point out that Kaepernick has spoken out vocally against Hillary Clinton, too. And he says he didn't vote because he didn't like his choices. He gets points in my book for that.
Lastly, let's all agree that people have the unique right to disrespect this country and its institutions. That freedom is part of what makes this a great country. If we all woke up tomorrow and the United States had somehow disppeared overnight, its place in history would be very much secure.
And
"Ahh looks like you have been paying attention you are agreeing with my major points."
Yes, but if you believe that Trump supports all the things he says now, then you are also allowing him to define himself. It's an act.
He used to be pro gay, now he's anti.
He used to be super duper pro-choice, now he's pro-life.
He used to be in favor of ending the war on drugs, now he has Jeff Sessions in charge of the Justice Department.
He used to be pro immigration, hired illegal immigrants, had an immigrant mother, married two immigrants, etc... now he's anti immigrant.
He used to want to raise taxes, especially on high income earners, now he wants to cut them.
He used to be pro gun control, now he's anti gun control (I think).
He used to criticise Ronald Reagan, now he praises him.
He used to hate the 1986 tax reform, now he loves it.
He used to love John McCain and Barack Obama, now he hates them.
He used to basically sweat Chuck Schumer's nuts and donate to him all the time and eat lunch with him, now he calls him a clown.
He used to say that the government should leave the Washington Redskins alone, now he says that the government should do something about the NFL.
He used to support universal socialized medicine, now he wants to repeal Obamacare.
And on and on and on. You can count on one hand the number of issues that he's been consistent on through the years. So you tell me, which one is the real Donald Trump? Is he really this right wing ideologue that scares you? If so, then you're just letting him tell you how "conservative" he is.
I am more right than left but I believe in being progressive.
Trump has been in office for 9 months. He is still staffing up and trying to move his agenda. It will be years before we can evaluate whether his foreign policy is a success.
It’s certainly fair game to say you don’t like Trump, or his policies. It’s way, way too early to declare him a failure, or a success for that matter. That will take years to sort out.
;-)
Bush 1 wishy washy political insider weasel who Reagan distrusted enough to no let him attend cabinet meetings, Reagan allowed him onto ticket to get power brokers in line. They thought Reagan would do what insider Bush told him to do.
Clinton 1: Smoked a cigar after up Monica's butthole... nuff said.
Bush 2 A know nothing idiot who allow himself to be surrounded by Clinton insiders after he and his oldman bargained with the demo's to let him in. Father of the "patriot act" AKA the biggest civil rights violation since John Birch putting us on the road to UN dictatorial rule
Obama: Soros Puppet, Crooked lawyer who lost his license to practice from the most corrupt political machine in the history of the USA.
Hilda Beast: Just plain an egomaniacal elitist felon who truly believes we all are serfs/slaves that should serve her.
Sanders: Another crook who think he has a right to rule and take what he feels he deserves (his wife is looking at 15 years for embezzlement and he is looking a jail as an accomplice) all the while professing social equality just as long as he is in charge and can have 4 or 5 luxury homes.
Trump: Motor mouth who has dared to challenge the status quo threatening the washington cash machine so the crooks on both sides are fighting back with all the mud they can find.
SIX Words: TERM LIMITS, No Pensions Until 65
Six more: Subject to all laws they pass!
It takes that long to see the full impact of how much good or how much bad they did during their term and to see the ripple effect of their tenure.
With that in mind I'll offer two examples --most people thought Truman was a disaster when he was in office ---you'll find a hard time finding many who feel the same way now.
The opposite at least to me is Carter---many feel he was bad, some felt he was good......in my estimation he was a walking disaster and much like VD he is the gift that keeps on giving --none of the names in this discussion mentioned can come close to the negative impact Carter had and continues to have on this nation.
@poolyD and @BurlingtonHoFactory: great points! In my response I admit I was weight President Bush (43) more based on his campaign and his beliefs than his actions. I loved "Campaign Bush 2000." He was so cool. He was a gangster. I though I elected a gangster. It turned out he wasn't quite as gangster as I thought.
I was weight President Obama based on his terms as POTUS. I go admit to being sucked into the "Hope and Change" promises. We didn't get much hope and change.
Interesting that the poster above me likes Mr Rubio so much and doesn't think he's part of the corrupt establishment.
And maybe in closing, one general observation. On a forum of free thinking Liberty guys who LOVE young women. I'm surprised more of us aren't upset over the GOP pushing so strongly for anti-abortion rhetoric. Even though I think history will judge us to be in he wrong side (as pro choicers) I can't see why we'd want public servants pushing so hard to restrict her choices and fail to take the emotional feelings in account for these young women trapped with hard choices in a tough world.
Trump is mostly clueless on healthcare. Compassionate conservative? Far closer to deadly narcissism on Trump's part.
This means that we are each free to be assholes, to dress like Nazis or confederate soldiers. History will have to judge whether this freedom was a good thing or a bad thing, but let's not give up on Jefferson's Experiment when it's only been going on for a few hundred years. After all, the Romans had a thousand years!
As for Rubio, it's amazing how fast he went from being seen as a Tea Party upstart to a member of the Establishment in just a few short years. When he ran for his Senate seat in 2010 against Charlie Crist, the Republican establishment came after Rubio with everything it had, while supporting Crist. (And of course Charlie's a Democrat today.) To me, Rubio seemed like a natural choice for the GOP presidential nomination in 2016. The party had moved to the right and I knew they weren't going to nominate another Romney or Bush, but they also weren't ready yet for Cruz or Paul. I figured they would choose someone like Rubio, who has some very conservative positions but who speaks with a moderate "tone of voice." Instead they went the opposite way: they chose Trump, someone with lots of moderate positions but who speaks loudly and angrily. Oh well.
And as for abortion, I'm very pro-choice, but I don't vote on that issue because I know that Roe vs Wade is there to prevent too much pro-life legislation. If Roe were overturned, I would be more hesitant to back a Republican in an election. And there are lots of people out there who feel the exact same way. The party establishment is aware of this and they probably secretly don't want Roe to be overturned as a result. The GOP establishment is pro-life, but they are pro-GOP, first and foremost, and they want to make sure that their party has every possible electoral advantage, just like the other side does.
Four years later, I voted for Reagan.
Plus Carter deregulated lots of industries, from airlines to trucking to beer, and many things in between. Don't conservatives still like deregulation? And he didn't raise taxes (yes, I know, that's a low bar, but he's still a Democrat and we have to grade on a curve). People seem to remember him for a bunch of symbolic bullshit: the "Malaise" Speech, putting solar panels on the roof of the White House, asking people to please turn down the thermostat and drive the speed limit, etc. But who cares? How does that make him so horrible? And I don't see how the Iran hostage thing was his fault either. It just seemed like bad luck. He tried to get them out, didn't he? But the helicopter crashed. It's not like he trained the pilot himself.
Having said that, he did create the Departments of Education and Energy, two money-wasting boondoggles if ever there were any. And he also reinstituted the Selective Service registration, which is just a precursor to military conscription. Plus the interventions in Central America, and I think Afghanistan. So, on balance... seems pretty standard and mediocre to me. The good cancels the bad, by my standards. Nothing to get worked up about.
I think the US was blessed with a string of mediocre presidents, basically every single one of them from Gerald Ford to Bill Clinton. Considering the awful ones that we had during the middle of the 20th century (namely FDR, Truman, Johnson, and Nixon), having five mediocre ones in a row might be the best we can hope for, and that's probably part of the reason why the last two decades of the 20th century were some of the best ones ever.
Every now and then, Carter would preach to us, like the malaise speech, acting as though he was morally superior to the rest of us. That also didn’t work for me.
I had to stop there. That’s maybe the funniest line I've ever read on here.
I would have figured that would be one of those comments made never.
Anyway, whenever I talk to a
Hillary-bot, an Obamatron, or a Trumpkin, I always go out of my way to talk only about their actual policy stances... even though I really hate the sound of her voice, and I think Trump and Obama are both showboating assholes. I would take Jimmy Carter over Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And Carter's presidency was about as good as Trump's has been so far (both thoroughly mediocre). So... any thoughts on policies?
Rising energy prices
Oil shortage
Gas lines
Staglfation
Double-digit inflation
Super high interest rates
Iran hostage crisis
Lastly, Carter was perceived as an undignified peanut farmer. Reagan won in a landslide due to the malaise crippling the nation in 1980 and due to the perception that Reagan would bring dignity to the role.
Prediction: Trump will be replaced by whoever appears the most reasonable and presidential as counter-measure to Trump's irrational and un-presidential temperament.
As for someone dignified beating Trump... I don't know. After Trump won the GOP nomination, I stopped making political predictions LOL
The media remains so caught up with the president’s tweets that it has missed Mr. Trump’s project to transform the rest of the federal judiciary. The president is stocking the courts with a class of brilliant young textualists bearing little relation to even their Reagan or Bush predecessors. Mr. Trump’s nastygrams to Bob Corker will be a distant memory next week. Notre Dame law professor Amy Coney Barrett’s influence on the Seventh U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals could still be going strong 40 years from now.
Mr. Trump has now nominated nearly 60 judges, filling more vacancies than Barack Obama did in his entire first year. There are another 160 court openings, allowing Mr. Trump to flip or further consolidate conservative majorities on the circuit courts that have the final say on 99% of federal legal disputes.
Prior to President Trump’s inauguration day I predicted we’d see this story arc play out in the media:
Spring 2017: “Trump is Hitler!”
Summer 2017: “Okay, Trump isn’t Hitler. But he’s incompetent!”
End of year 2017: “Crap. He’s effective. But we don’t like it.”
Consumer confidence is peaking while the president’s approval rating is in the cellar. That means people expect him to be effective on the big stuff. But they don’t like him because of the other stuff.
Right on schedule.