Someone recently asked me what the life expantancy was for a dancer. now i know they were asking about how long they would be able to work but it got me thinking about how dancers start vs how they finish their time inside a strip club. No little girl say that her dream job is stripping. No college student wants to dance. The motivation for becoming a stripper is money. across the board money makes girls strip. The first few years its a job with great money and hours that fit for most college girls or girls with families that need attention during the day. But at some point there is a shift. Girls seek attention. Its almost a learned skill after a year or so of dancing. Money remains important but attention becomes a close second. Eventually that attention stops and alot of girls move to drugs or drinking to cope. Family and friends shun dancers for nothing more then getting paid for being naked. Sometimes more happens then that. Then some decide to dance to support habits. At the end of a dancers career its about one of two things. Hatred or acceptance. Hatred of adult entertainment, men, drugs etc. or acceptance of knowing you did what you did and your now out. Either way their lives will be changed forever just by choosing a short career in dancing.
Just a word: No two dancers are right but this is my take on things. and also as most know im not a customer shamer one bit. Girls make decisions and we live with them but this is something that i was requested to write and hope i touched on it well. PS i take suggestions for post also.
Hmmm okay let me ask this. You have 20 girls working in an average club, could be anywhere in America. How many of those girls are regularly on some sort of drug? How many of those 20 have a drinking problem? Lastly, how many of those girls are clean? By clean I mean may have a few drinks at work, on a rare occasion may get a little tipsy, but aren’t drunk every night and usually aren’t drinking at home, and no drugs at all.
Another question, you mentioned college several times in your post. Again take 20 girls in an average club, how many of them are college students. By college students I mean currently enrolled, I’m not counting the girl that did one semester, dropped out 4 years ago and keeps telling everyone she’s going back into school. That girl certainly doesn’t count as a college student.
Interesting perspective, pd. You should turn it into an article and get it published, it's 100x more interesting than the usual by-rote "we are not hookers, tip us if you're at the rail, no we don't have sex with customers" obligatory article you see all over the place.
The point about shifting to seeking attention is interesting. Being as honest with yourself as you can be, to what extent do you think this is somewhat universal among strippers, versus to what extent are you projecting your personal experience?
So basically every dancer likely is going to hit a rock bottom most likely. What her personal rock bottom is will shift with her moral values, and how much they are tempted by the money or drugs. I'm sure at some point they say "I need to get out of this life". Hopefully it's after the first incident, and not after years of neglect and damage both mentally and physically.
Now I'm sure there are clean girls who don't drink, do drugs, extras, etc. But I would imagine they are quite the minority.
It's sad when you think of how lives can be affected on both sides of the spectrum.
Attention is 100% because attention is self worth in this kinda business. Attention is money and money is attention. If i put my tits in someones face and they are to busy watching a game on tv then that is gonna do two things 1 piss me off and 2 make me feel less attractive or noticable.
@poledancer83, you're probably right. But in my experience, dancers also undergo a different progression. They arrive as squeamish 20-somethings (or even teenagers), unwilling to do anything but dance. In other words, no extras. This is how they are able to tell themselves that they aren't prostitutes. But they still make plenty of money because they're young. Then they leave at some point, and they either get a "real" job outside the sex industry, or they shack up with some guy who promises to take care of them. So far, so good.
But most of them eventually come back once they realize that the real world kinda sucks: either the civilian job didn't pay enough, or they were late and/or high all the time, or the relationship with the guy didn't work out, whatever. So they come back to the club. Except now they're older. Sure they're still attractive, but you know how guys are: they want young, they want new. So now she has to do extras if she wants to earn the same amount of money that she used to earn from just dancing as a fresh-faced newcomer. If only she had sucked some dick 10 years ago and saved her money, she wouldn't have to be doing this now in her 30s or 40s. It's a sad story, but it seems to happen all the time, and the TUSCL board is probably filled with stories about it. Anyway, that's the progression I've noticed through the years. Once in a great while, I meet a stripper who actually is a college student. But the real education they get is learning that it's never too soon to start selling your ass.*
In regards to the number of strippers on drugs or alcoholic strippers...
I will just say this and maybe I'm rong. Who knows. The 40% clean sounds kinda accurate. But if all you see is "extras" strippers or strippers grinding patrons and being groped for $5 or $10 a song, I'm sure the percentage of strippers that have to be high or drunk is a lot higher. Personally I don't notice a widespread rampant drug and alcohol abuse in the "clean" clubs. Sure there are still dancers "under the influence" at these "clean" clubs but I'd imagine it's much easier to deal with that stuff sober than what goes on at extras clubs and cheap dives. Just my observations. Could also be they are on something but not out of their mind and I can't tell the difference.
I appreciate your insights PoleDancer. You've touched on many of the emotional challenges faced by dancers as the gain experience and as they age.
I think you've made excellent points. I think of dancers in a two-faced way - as I don't think dancers and any sex workers shouldn't be looked down upon as they work hard for their money - but the converse is that I wouldn't want my daughter to be a dancer. So my hypothetical view falls apart when put to the test.
very good point many many many girls get hi or drunk just to work. another thing to think of is the ease of just trying extras. i mean its exciting money possibilities. and not far from stripping physically but very much so emotionally. and to cashman every dancer is someones daughter. its a choice we made but none the less
Thanks for that perspective PD. You have great words of wisdom, and I didn't make that connection as I typed my post. I need to think about that - and let it sink in. I don't want it to diminish my enjoyment of debauchery - but it will help me see dancers in a different light.
Thanks for the perspective PD. I hadn't thought about the attention phase until you mentioned it.
I have a follow up question, if you don't mind. What percent of strippers actually bank some money through the life cycle rather than just blow it all? I assume that, unfortunately, a pretty low number have much saved up from their adventures but I'm curious as to your take.
chessmaster-->"I'm sure the percentage of strippers that have to be high or drunk is a lot higher. Personally I don't notice a widespread rampant drug and alcohol abuse in the "clean" clubs."
Chess, I'm not sure I agree. IME, at non-extras alcohol clubs, close to 95% of the girls drink every single shift, at least to the point of buzzed if not drunk. No, they don't have to deal psychologically with the idea of extras, but 1. there's no extras, so socializing is a huge part of the experience, many customers want to drink with the girls, 2. the easy availability of alcohol plus social pressure over bonding with other strippers means any downtime often leads to drinking.
In short, IME, if a girl absolutely insists on not drinking, it's far easier to do that in a nude club where the only pressure to drink is in the lockerroom, than it is in a no-extras topless alcohol club where everyone else is drinking and her revenue directly depends on drinking.
I got to discussing this a bit with a 30ish dancer who has been at it for a decade. She agreed that the work changes, that it becomes more important to cultivate regulars and guide them into conversations. 40ish ladies end up on the day shift, consoling lonely men... But she assured me she could still climb the pole now and wanted to earn money from dancing.
I also got the impression she was making some tradeoffs to have more reliable income and support a child. It was better to know regulars at a small club than to work a large one for strangers and have highly variation night-to-night in income.
Thanks PD. Your take of 10% saving money squares with what I was thinking. I'm well acquainted with more escorts than strippers but I think there are quite a few similarities here. I suspect that the "hatred or acceptance" ending might have a third category of "this has been tough but I've been rewarded" if more strippers could manage to have some money put away. Might give them something to look forward to and reduce the need to medicate.
Having said that, I've also learned to avoid the topic in talking with strippers (or escorts) as I think it's demeaning to give them my "wisdom" unless they've asked for it. As well intentioned as it might be, I think unsolicited help sends the message that I have a low opinion of them and it only makes matters worse. Sorry for veering from the main point of the thread.
When you say progression of most dancers, you probably mean most dancers that stay in the business as it seems that most or the majority of girls try it and quit pretty quickly as do cam girls. Then there are the ones that really are in school and have real plans once they finish school, a small minority, but still a sizeable one. Many of these girls, tend not to be extras girls, unless their student loans are overwhelming. Sure some of them might come back if they miss stripping (maybe the money, or maybe the attention), but if they're smart, they'll only do it part time and keep their real full time job. But the ones that turn it into a career (however short) do have a tough(er) road ahead regardless of extras or drug use.
Once a girl strips say into her mid 20s, and still doesn't have a basic college degree, even an associates, realistically her employment options dwindle. Yes, she can still go to school, but at this age with higher responsibilities and expenses and quite possibly a child or more, and several years removed from the academic setting, it only becomes harder and more expensive (as it drags on) to earn a degree. She has literally no other work history and is basically competing for minimum wage level jobs. She then has about a 15 year window, realistically less than that, as most strippers don't last that long as strippers, to earn and save as much as she can to retire early (unlikely) or start her own business (less, but still unlikely). Some girls really do develop a lot of good business skills, marketing and salespersonship working in the club, but they still usually need considerable savings to start a business which is still much more likely to fail than succeed in the long term (something like 1 out of 10). The even more likely, but still unlikely option is to marry someone that can support her (and possibly children) financially.
The most probable option is that she eventually turns to straight up hooking to support herself (and her children until they're grown) until that's no longer viable. i have no idea when the average age of that is, but it largely depends on how well she takes care of herself.
So that's probably the double edged sword of the world of stripping (not including the darker elements of prostitution and drug use or the background of abuse many if not most strippers come from). If they do too well, they turn it into a career which in the long run usually turns out badly. If they do not that well, but okay, they still do it for a while, but don't really enjoy the benefits of it (more free time in their youth, money to enjoy it, higher standard of living) and have nothing to show for the 5-10 years of their life except treating it as just another modest paying job before they transition to another one. If they do real badly, they just get out.
@poledancer83, @Huntsman, yeah 10% sounds about right. These girls could be the masters of the universe (mistresses of the universe?) but they are mostly slaves to their habits and addictions, just like us poor dumb slobs. I have also given up advising them to save some money. You just come across sounding like their fathers. And even the ones with daddy issues don't want that.
I think the proportion varies Club by club, in the known extras clubs you get the most hardcore with bad habits and no future types. One thing I've noticed is in most of the fairly clean and very strict clubs most of the girls work less than 5 shifts a week and the few that I know that are genuinely attending college or some type of vocational classes dance even less 2-3 shifts at most.
@Poledancer. Excellent topic for this board. Have to agree with you on the attention part. That's a reason I tend to at least tip everyone something, unless the are out of line. Drinking? In that environment some kind of buzz is required and you need to build up a tolerance, so you can still function financially. We've all seen newbies falling out and being taken advantaged of in clubs.
IME its WAY better for a girl to get out within 2-3 years even if she went hard during that time, the psychological damage alone is enough. Hanging around the biz on a steady basis beyond that leads her down that dark path few return from.
@DDiggler, good write up the way out for them, hit largely on the head. I've been that guy to take her out the life before, but unless she is willing to make a TOTAL break from it, and still has enough humanity left in her, its a fools errand. Woe be the PL who marries an experienced stripper no matter what level she's on. They all wind up in the gutter dives at some point in their career. And that follows her like she's been sprayed by multiple skunks simultaneously. Impossible to get away from. Most of us can spot it out in the wild immediately.
I know one former dancer who is working at a senior level in a bank. She wasn't a full time dancer - and she did it to supplement her income when she was younger.
She kept her moonlighting stripping largely a secret (from most of her bank colleagues), but I knew about it after I'd watched her dance several times. It's an odd circle - as my boss started fucking her - and he offered her services to me - so I took several turns with her (to be a team player).
She definitely has issues regarding her body - as she's had quite a few plastic surgery procedures done. She was a good looking blonde - with large fake tits - but now she has the look of a woman who has had lots of work done.
She's most likely part of the 1% of girls who got out and were successful in other areas. I'm not sure if she would admit to her past life - if asked in a social conversation - but it would be interesting to see her reaction.
I saw first hand a co-workers wife go from laughs at a amateur hour at a club to full blown drugged out crack whore in a couple of years. Wasn't a pleasant episode. The husband survived pretty well, but she hooked up with some sleaze bag that was likely her drug source.
The stigma that dancers feel, and the fact that they come to crave attention, these are some of the reasons why dancers and I usually get along very well, and that they often just open right up to me.
No matter high high of a mileage the venue is, and no matter how forward the girl is being, I always treat them completely as civilians, and I never act like money buys them, buys their affections, or that they sell sexual services. Always 100% civilian, like I was just meeting her at a college party.
And I never pass up the opportunity of approaching the girl myself, and in front of her fellow dancers.
^^^^^ Part of their craving for attention is that they see other girls getting it, and they measure it in money. And then, their all dolled up and wearing little or nothing, so that really hurts them when they are being ignored.
Again, understanding this is why more often than not dancers will really open up to me.
This is why girls don't send more v pics. If we said stuff like that whenever we got a dick pic, we'd never get any. And you know how we love dick picks! I think I'll check my messages now. :)
"no" little girl dreams of being a stripper, nor college girl wants to strip?
I dunno, the generations are changing. For a girl born in 1965, thinking about it when she's at college in 1985, the idea of working in a strip club would indeed have been a fall from grace. She would be disappointed, find the idea almost abhorrent. But for a girl born in 1995 considering it in 2015? I think the kinky experimental side of stripping, and the take-your-own-life side of it, and the don't-need-a-man but rather take-advantage-of-males side of it, might actually be enticing, instead of negative.
I don't think any of them WANT to become drug-addicted or to get dependent on anything. And I think everyone, male or female, any generation, would sensibly WANT more options rather than fewer, of it's a sane person. But all those career-questions included -- don't want to be in a goddamned office; like to make my own hours; making my own choices; etc. -- may be tipping strippers to the mainstream.
I think the interchanges with Poledancer on this thread hint at a fact I was trying to uncover, recently, in a (badly written) article I put here (that is much too long). I was trying to figure out the way that SELF-ESTEEM worked its way into the otherwise standard economic equations of supply and demand, what the service was that was being provided, what was being paid for, etc.. Because self-esteem is a gain to the service-giver, even though the service-giver is also the person receiving the money and therefore in standard economics, that would somehow be a loss to the service-receiver, etc.. For me, the self-esteem problem is at the root of a lot of the sex and adult services industry questions of economics and feminism and human rights and so forth, interesting that PD brought it up here as well.
And to think I was wondering about a dancers perspective on going though months or years of providing extras. This thread is pretty eye opening, thanks Poledancer83.
Thing is, I don't think it's ever gonna end. The lure of that great money will always leave an attractive option for a young beautiful woman. And surely there will always be PLs like myself willing to spend the cash to get next to these beautiful woman that we'd otherwise never find ourselves close to.
So where does that leave us? Will anything change in the future? Myself I doubt it.
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Another question, you mentioned college several times in your post. Again take 20 girls in an average club, how many of them are college students. By college students I mean currently enrolled, I’m not counting the girl that did one semester, dropped out 4 years ago and keeps telling everyone she’s going back into school. That girl certainly doesn’t count as a college student.
Could also be the sex with customers and the drugs. I know just rumors that some girls really do those things.
Dougster. yeah that does happen alot but why is that a reason for family to shun someone . My point is this is all part of some dancers progession
I believe you! Just responding back!
Now I'm sure there are clean girls who don't drink, do drugs, extras, etc. But I would imagine they are quite the minority.
It's sad when you think of how lives can be affected on both sides of the spectrum.
But most of them eventually come back once they realize that the real world kinda sucks: either the civilian job didn't pay enough, or they were late and/or high all the time, or the relationship with the guy didn't work out, whatever. So they come back to the club. Except now they're older. Sure they're still attractive, but you know how guys are: they want young, they want new. So now she has to do extras if she wants to earn the same amount of money that she used to earn from just dancing as a fresh-faced newcomer. If only she had sucked some dick 10 years ago and saved her money, she wouldn't have to be doing this now in her 30s or 40s. It's a sad story, but it seems to happen all the time, and the TUSCL board is probably filled with stories about it. Anyway, that's the progression I've noticed through the years. Once in a great while, I meet a stripper who actually is a college student. But the real education they get is learning that it's never too soon to start selling your ass.*
* I mean, as long as she's an adult.
I will just say this and maybe I'm rong. Who knows. The 40% clean sounds kinda accurate. But if all you see is "extras" strippers or strippers grinding patrons and being groped for $5 or $10 a song, I'm sure the percentage of strippers that have to be high or drunk is a lot higher. Personally I don't notice a widespread rampant drug and alcohol abuse in the "clean" clubs. Sure there are still dancers "under the influence" at these "clean" clubs but I'd imagine it's much easier to deal with that stuff sober than what goes on at extras clubs and cheap dives. Just my observations. Could also be they are on something but not out of their mind and I can't tell the difference.
I think you've made excellent points. I think of dancers in a two-faced way - as I don't think dancers and any sex workers shouldn't be looked down upon as they work hard for their money - but the converse is that I wouldn't want my daughter to be a dancer. So my hypothetical view falls apart when put to the test.
I have a follow up question, if you don't mind. What percent of strippers actually bank some money through the life cycle rather than just blow it all? I assume that, unfortunately, a pretty low number have much saved up from their adventures but I'm curious as to your take.
Chess, I'm not sure I agree. IME, at non-extras alcohol clubs, close to 95% of the girls drink every single shift, at least to the point of buzzed if not drunk. No, they don't have to deal psychologically with the idea of extras, but 1. there's no extras, so socializing is a huge part of the experience, many customers want to drink with the girls, 2. the easy availability of alcohol plus social pressure over bonding with other strippers means any downtime often leads to drinking.
In short, IME, if a girl absolutely insists on not drinking, it's far easier to do that in a nude club where the only pressure to drink is in the lockerroom, than it is in a no-extras topless alcohol club where everyone else is drinking and her revenue directly depends on drinking.
I also got the impression she was making some tradeoffs to have more reliable income and support a child. It was better to know regulars at a small club than to work a large one for strangers and have highly variation night-to-night in income.
Having said that, I've also learned to avoid the topic in talking with strippers (or escorts) as I think it's demeaning to give them my "wisdom" unless they've asked for it. As well intentioned as it might be, I think unsolicited help sends the message that I have a low opinion of them and it only makes matters worse. Sorry for veering from the main point of the thread.
Once a girl strips say into her mid 20s, and still doesn't have a basic college degree, even an associates, realistically her employment options dwindle. Yes, she can still go to school, but at this age with higher responsibilities and expenses and quite possibly a child or more, and several years removed from the academic setting, it only becomes harder and more expensive (as it drags on) to earn a degree. She has literally no other work history and is basically competing for minimum wage level jobs. She then has about a 15 year window, realistically less than that, as most strippers don't last that long as strippers, to earn and save as much as she can to retire early (unlikely) or start her own business (less, but still unlikely). Some girls really do develop a lot of good business skills, marketing and salespersonship working in the club, but they still usually need considerable savings to start a business which is still much more likely to fail than succeed in the long term (something like 1 out of 10). The even more likely, but still unlikely option is to marry someone that can support her (and possibly children) financially.
The most probable option is that she eventually turns to straight up hooking to support herself (and her children until they're grown) until that's no longer viable. i have no idea when the average age of that is, but it largely depends on how well she takes care of herself.
So that's probably the double edged sword of the world of stripping (not including the darker elements of prostitution and drug use or the background of abuse many if not most strippers come from). If they do too well, they turn it into a career which in the long run usually turns out badly. If they do not that well, but okay, they still do it for a while, but don't really enjoy the benefits of it (more free time in their youth, money to enjoy it, higher standard of living) and have nothing to show for the 5-10 years of their life except treating it as just another modest paying job before they transition to another one. If they do real badly, they just get out.
IME its WAY better for a girl to get out within 2-3 years even if she went hard during that time, the psychological damage alone is enough. Hanging around the biz on a steady basis beyond that leads her down that dark path few return from.
@DDiggler, good write up the way out for them, hit largely on the head. I've been that guy to take her out the life before, but unless she is willing to make a TOTAL break from it, and still has enough humanity left in her, its a fools errand. Woe be the PL who marries an experienced stripper no matter what level she's on. They all wind up in the gutter dives at some point in their career. And that follows her like she's been sprayed by multiple skunks simultaneously. Impossible to get away from. Most of us can spot it out in the wild immediately.
She kept her moonlighting stripping largely a secret (from most of her bank colleagues), but I knew about it after I'd watched her dance several times. It's an odd circle - as my boss started fucking her - and he offered her services to me - so I took several turns with her (to be a team player).
She definitely has issues regarding her body - as she's had quite a few plastic surgery procedures done. She was a good looking blonde - with large fake tits - but now she has the look of a woman who has had lots of work done.
She's most likely part of the 1% of girls who got out and were successful in other areas. I'm not sure if she would admit to her past life - if asked in a social conversation - but it would be interesting to see her reaction.
The stigma that dancers feel, and the fact that they come to crave attention, these are some of the reasons why dancers and I usually get along very well, and that they often just open right up to me.
No matter high high of a mileage the venue is, and no matter how forward the girl is being, I always treat them completely as civilians, and I never act like money buys them, buys their affections, or that they sell sexual services. Always 100% civilian, like I was just meeting her at a college party.
And I never pass up the opportunity of approaching the girl myself, and in front of her fellow dancers.
SJG
Thomas Piketty's 'Capital' in 3 minutes - Newsnight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL-YUTFq…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpGG3_pB…
Again, understanding this is why more often than not dancers will really open up to me.
SJG
http://artsandfacts.blogspot.com/2012/02…
SJG
Casino Royale Sound Track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhmZULZX…
Nice piss flaps! Lmfao
Progression: Clean dancer. Broke clean dancer. Extras dancer. Whore. John Smith's DS. 26-year old ex-DS. Clubber's CF. Drugged-out crack whore.
She wasn't broke (LEXUS THEN MB SLK), no drugs, no extras. Age WAS 28. :)
I dunno, the generations are changing. For a girl born in 1965, thinking about it when she's at college in 1985, the idea of working in a strip club would indeed have been a fall from grace. She would be disappointed, find the idea almost abhorrent. But for a girl born in 1995 considering it in 2015? I think the kinky experimental side of stripping, and the take-your-own-life side of it, and the don't-need-a-man but rather take-advantage-of-males side of it, might actually be enticing, instead of negative.
I don't think any of them WANT to become drug-addicted or to get dependent on anything. And I think everyone, male or female, any generation, would sensibly WANT more options rather than fewer, of it's a sane person. But all those career-questions included -- don't want to be in a goddamned office; like to make my own hours; making my own choices; etc. -- may be tipping strippers to the mainstream.
Thing is, I don't think it's ever gonna end. The lure of that great money will always leave an attractive option for a young beautiful woman. And surely there will always be PLs like myself willing to spend the cash to get next to these beautiful woman that we'd otherwise never find ourselves close to.
So where does that leave us? Will anything change in the future? Myself I doubt it.