OT: Socialism at it's finest.
TheeOSU
FUCK IT!
AP Analysis: Why Venezuelans have lost hope life will change
By HANNAH DREIER and JOSHUA GOODMAN Associated Press
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuela is so short on food that tens of thousands are going hungry or even starving. Its murder rate is among the highest in the world. Its economy is so crippled that the average shopper spends 35 hours a month waiting in line — three times more than in 2014.
Yet even as the country becomes increasingly unlivable, the socialist government is more entrenched than it has been in years. A sense of hopelessness has settled over what was once among the richest nations in South America, a belief that nothing will really change.
To understand why people have given up, look at Jhorman Valero and his family.
Three years ago, Valero dragged his 24-year-old cousin, Bassil da Costa, to join thousands of others in a nationwide protest against the administration of President Nicolas Maduro. Hours later, Bassil was bleeding in his arms, the first of more than 40 people to be killed during weeks of unrest. Staring numbly at the floor, Jhorman recounts how he watched his cousin's skull come apart under his baseball cap from a bullet shot by security forces.
Now Valero and Bassil's sister, Yenicer da Costa, no longer bother to protest, even on the anniversary of the 2014 protest.
“What's the point of protesting if they just kill you in the streets and, three years later, everything is even worse?” she said.
The fear inspired by the 2014 crackdown weighs heavily on the present, with a government that is selectively repressive. Many of more than 100 political prisoners were arrested that year and remain in jail, according to human rights groups. Most are being held incommunicado in the dungeons of El Helicoide, a spiral-shaped modernist landmark built as a shopping mall during the 1950s oil boom, which is now the headquarters of the all-powerful Sebin intelligence police.
The creation last month of an “anti-coup commando unit” headed by the vice president has stoked fears of more roundups. The unit already has arrested three members of the party of Leopoldo Lopez, the highest-profile prisoner, who led the protest at which Bassil was killed.
As the price of oil has fallen and laid bare years of mismanagement, Maduro's administration has responded by becoming more repressive. It has purged state institutions of potential traitors, kept out foreign reporters, detained prominent businessmen and declared null all decisions by the opposition-controlled congress.
As a result, the young people who would be the natural fuel for any street protest movement are not turning out. At demonstrations these days, there are more grandparents than youths.
One reason is that so many young people have simply fled the country.
The protest this month got off to an inauspicious start, with an older man shouting, “Where are all the students?” ‘'They didn't come!" called back Diego Cerboni, student union president at the private Santa Maria University.
Many of the friends Cerboni used to rely upon to demonstrate have left Venezuela. Cerboni estimates 100 students are leaving Santa Maria each week, forcing professors to consolidate sections and cancel under-enrolled classes at the 12,000-student campus.
One recent survey found 88 percent of young Venezuelans want to emigrate. Venezuelans accounted for more U.S. asylum requests than any other country last year — more than 18,000, compared to a few hundred in 2013. So many people are applying for passports that the government has run short of supplies and all but stopped issuing them.
“The government has a smart strategy. They keep us looking over our shoulder, keep us busy looking for food and medicine. You're working on how to get out of the country, and you don't have time to march,” Cerboni said.
Protester Marcello Gonzalez, 69, said all his 15 grandkids and seven of his 10 children have left the country.
“There's a terror campaign here,” he said. “The government is using tear gas and arrests to intimidate the young people and make them stay home. We older people don't have to worry as much. We know we're not the target.”
To be sure, the streets are not always calm. Twice last year, the opposition rallied hundreds of thousands of people to protest the Maduro administration. But while popular movements have helped topple governments in places like Egypt and Ukraine, Venezuela's protests seem to have had little effect on the political calculus of those in power.
“Ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall, a lot of people are walking around with this myth in our heads that if you get enough people into the streets, the government will fall. And that's just not true,” said Steven Levitsky, a professor at Harvard University who specializes in Latin American politics.
The loss of hope is also tied to the opposition's failure to present a clear alternative to the government. It is perennially divided and absorbed by its own internal ego battles.
The government has successfully made use of legal loopholes to hobble the opposition without much international protest. For much of last spring and summer, the opposition appeared to be getting back on track, collecting some 2 million signatures — 10 times the required minimum — to force a recall referendum against Maduro. Polls suggest 80 percent of the country want to vote him out. But after a mass demonstration with a million people in September grabbed international headlines, the government suspended the recall drive.
The Obama administration then dispatched a top diplomat to walk back the opposition leaders and tempt them with a Vatican-sponsored dialogue, which has since collapsed. In hindsight, to many it felt like capitulation, with the only result being that Maduro was never punished for trampling on the constitution. Now, there is an effort underway to block opposition parties from competing in future elections altogether.
The opposition may have found a more willing partner in U.S. President Donald Trump, who abruptly broke with the Obama administration's policy of relative restraint toward Venezuela. Trump met with protester Lopez's wife in the White House and slapped drug sanctions on Maduro's vice president within 30 days of taking office.
But while such a display of bravado is red meat to opposition hardliners, it could alienate the vast majority of Venezuelans who still revere the late President Hugo Chavez. And it only increases the odds that corrupt officials will close ranks for fear of being hunted down themselves should they ever lose power.
“It's the exact wrong thing. The opposition needs to convince the ruling elite that there's life after Maduro; that if they allow a transition, they're not going to end up in jail or exile. If the regime elite remains united, there's nothing in a protest movement that forces them to leave,” Levitsky said.
The protest to commemorate the 2014 deaths eventually grew to a few hundred people. Bassil's mother, Jineth Frias, showed up, somewhat reluctantly, and marched with other parents in front of a sign that said, “We remember our young.”
For the most part, she sees little point in taking to the streets, and turns to prayer instead. At her modest home on the outskirts of Caracas, she has built a tiny altar with a framed picture of Bassil in the black and yellow jersey of his favorite soccer team, hung alongside a statue of the Virgin Mary.
In the three years since his death, her family's predicament, like that of Venezuela, has only worsened. Her refrigerator is almost always empty and as a result she's lost 10 kilograms (22 pounds), in what Venezuelans call the “Maduro Diet.”
“I know it sounds terrible,” she confides between tears, “but I thank God he's not here to see this.”
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@TheeOSU Venezuela is a failed state not socialist it was run by an authoritarian dictator for years who had no opposition that could stand up to him. He killed and jailed all the opposition it has been on a downward spiral for years I wouldn't make that the centerpiece of anti socialist logic.
Every liberal's #1 or #2 news network.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/22/world/amer…
More for the non-believers
http://www.cityam.com/article/1393351308…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew…
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/…
--> "There is no such thing as socialism. You just end up with a few rich people and everyone else is equally poor."
I am skeptical that democratic socialism could ever exist or at least it wouldn't exist for long. It seems the end game is always Bolshevism or Chavezism, extreme concentration. It's similar to Strip Clubs. They might start out as show clubs but the market equilibrium is for brothels.
I have been seeing more self reflection on the left as of late, if you can believe that, following the election win of President Donald J. Trump. Many who were very egalitarian left leaning people (who left the safe spaces) are starting to realize that many of their ideals are Marxist philosophies that resemble the structure of the failed Eastern bloc, the failed Soviet Union, other totalitarian socialist states, like Venezuela.
Food for thought.
Hell, just seeming my healthcare getting even more fucked up after Obamacare was enacted FINALLY convinced me that you can, in fact, run out of other people's money. I actually thought you guys were bitching just to bitch. But you really CAN run out of other people's money.
Speaking of other people's money. On Doctors & Physician forums, they bitch and moan (very convincingly I might add) that the reason healthcare and drugs/pharma are so cheap, or the reason why shit is like less than 50% of what shits costs in the U.S., is that U.S. medicine (incl. R&D) is subsidizing the rest of the world. The Physicians that post there do make convincing arguments.
So in a way the U.S. is really propping up a lot of the rest of the world. The flip side is that the world cannot support 7 billion people with a U.S. standard of living either. So 1. There is give and take and 2. nothing exists in a vacuum.
Skibum and I know that socialism exists, it sucks, and it never works long term anytime it has been attempted.
The entire system is out of control and Obamacare didn't help. The only real way to get the system back in control is regulation that isn't written by lobbyists, our representatives have no real incentive to fix the system, unless we can force them to access health care the same way that we have to, as it stands now all congressmen, senators, and federal legislators have gold standard health care paid for by the US taxpayers, if we took that away you would see how fast the system would change.
Remember the insurance companies are the ones that actually wrote the laws regarding health care, and they are the ones making the most money from the system as it exists.
If you want to see how advanced industrial democracies implement socialism, look to the Social Democracies of Western Europe, especially Scandinavia. This should show you both the good and the bad.
One thing, once they got a social safety net and universal health care, church attendance tanked.
SJG
There is no incentive for anyone to excel and reach their potential.
I guess some people do value panticipation trophies.
Everyone wants to do well, so that they can be admired by friends and family. People only get otherwise when they find everything to be completely unfair and so they give up.
And these Social Democracies of Western Europe, they are not places where you cannot own anything more than a shovel or where the government owns everything. They are moderate. They have a social safety net, and some public ownership, and they have maybe 10 to 15% higher upper income taxes.
And the reason for this is that they are democracies, all issues are openly debated, and people vote as they do.
The highest period of economic growth in the US was the Eisenhower Kennedy years, when upper income taxes exceed 90%.
Europe is nothing like that today.
During the mid 1960's the US was about on par with Western Europe, and going in the same direction. But then Richard Nixon unveiled his Southern Strategy, using our country's horrible history of race relations to drive the politics to the Right, and then following that up with strategies of using social wedge issues to peel off swing voters.
SJG
Most people realize that they don't get anything extra for working harder, get disallusioned, and slack off.
Keep living in Fantasyland.
And look at Scandinavia, that is reality right now.
No personal disrespect flagooner, but you and lots of our other members live in land of right wing ideology which has little to do with reality.
SJG
SJG
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun
1. a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
There is no incentive for anyone to excel and reach their potential"
In theory everyone would be well provided for and taken care of. They would excel for the general benefit of everyone.
To me that sounds pretty good. But that's just theory and we'll never actually see that because that's not human nature.
What a dumb fag.
The Scandinavians also tell me most people believe that way, but their system is so entrenched that nothing can be changed. Any time there is economic downward cycles the government usually is slow to respond and it takes them much longer to come out of it. It really doesn't work in Scandinavia as well as capitalism, it's just as a culture they've learned to adapt.
“a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated BY THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE.”
While that is a good definition, it is also important to look at how Socialism operates. The governing body owns and operates the means of production for the entire community’s benefit. In exchange, each individual is provided with their basic needs. The goal is equality for all, in terms of wealth. There isn’t a problem keeping up with the Joneses, the problem is that there isn’t an ability to do better. I won’t go down the path of the Joneses being lower-middle class at best in a socialistic society because my point isn’t about the merits of Capitalism vs. Socialism, it’s about whether the U.S. is in fact Socialist.
Of course it isn’t.
Yes there are portions of our society that are socialistic, but that is a far cry from Socialism. There is Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, Medicaid, education grants, … that provide safety nets for the disadvantaged, but the ability to thrive by working hard and smart is achievable. It’s called the American Dream. It may not be easy or guaranteed, but it is possible and one of the things this country is founded on.
I don’t consider the military to be Socialism. Yes, it is run by the government, but there is an opportunity to flourish by working hard and getting promotions. Also, it is strictly volunteer without a draft. I may be wrong here, there is always a first, but when evaluating if Socialism is in play I tend to look at how REVENUE GENERATING businesses are owned and how the profits are distributed. I also look at how coddled the masses are.
As for public and private companies, there is regulation to help prevent corruption and unfair practices. However, they are owned by individuals or groups of individuals (stockholders) but not the community as a whole. And the proceeds go to the owners, not the community as a whole.
I could go on, but I’ll get off my soapbox.
I’m starting to feel like I’m emulating SJG, writing a long-winded political post that will never get read.
I don't know if that's the same as everybody being equally well off, but it's close. Marx recognizes that different people have different needs and abilities, that people can't be mathematically equal. Everybody should be working hard to help everybody. Marx assumes a level of altruism that is unattainable.
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Naw...good post @flag and I read the whole thing. Not everyone has the aptitude to go into quantitative finance, and we have a moral obligation to provide health care and education for the poor -- even if some of them are lazy or not too bright. We have a great capitalistic society with some of the best elements of socialism.
Don't forget that we need enough government regulation to prevent unbridled capitalism from blowing up the economy, again.
...and we need enough incentive for people to work hard and innovate in areas like medicine, engineering, applied science. That doesn't mean we need more gold-plated toilets for billionaires. There's some middle ground that has the best elements of capitalism and socialism.
I'm NOT surprisded you use personal insults. It's who you are.
Of course it isn’t.
Yes there are portions of our society that are socialistic, but that is a far cry from Socialism. There is Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, Medicaid, education grants, … that provide safety nets for the disadvantaged, but the ability to thrive by working hard and smart is achievable. It’s called the American Dream. It may not be easy or guaranteed, but it is possible and one of the things this country is founded on.
I don’t consider the military to be Socialism. Yes, it is run by the government, but there is an opportunity to flourish by working hard and getting promotions. Also, it is strictly volunteer without a draft. I may be wrong here, there is always a first, but when evaluating if Socialism is in play I tend to look at how REVENUE GENERATING businesses are owned and how the profits are distributed. I also look at how coddled the masses are.
As for public and private companies, there is regulation to help prevent corruption and unfair practices. However, they are owned by individuals or groups of individuals (stockholders) but not the community as a whole. And the proceeds go to the owners, not the community as a whole."
^
This! Well said!
BTW North Korea is not socialist, the government and whom it benefits are only available to a select few that are privileged through their connections by birth there is no meritocracy, which is what many seem to be equating socialism with.
On a sober note what the fuck is wrong with you, dead kids of whatever race, is fucking terrible you really are rancid piece of bigoted shit.
At the time of his death, Mike Brown was 18 years old, was 6 ft 4 in tall, and weighed 292 lb, legally an adult and a mighty big one at that! His end started when he stole from a store and assaulted a store clerk that confronted him. The end came when he attacked and tried to kill a cop that had stopped him.
The Nobama justice department did their best to prosecute the cop that shot him but the facts are that the shooting was justified. That "kid" received his deserved justice.
TheeOSU has proclaimed me a leftist kook in another thread today, I think I have a balanced and cynical perspective here:
"Under Capitalism everything is Dog Eat Dog, Under Communism it is just the reverse".
I get it, The Castro brothers and Chavez weren't exactly doing things for reasons of charity... but they aren't the ones who have kicked me in the wallet lately- its more the Koch brothers and Wall Street that sold me down the street.
"
• I still say the US is the most socialistic country in world history because here workers through stock ownership including 401ks and business ownership own more of the means of production than anywhere else
"
He has said things like this before and it is patent bullshit.
Ownership of the means of production means real 'ownership', meaning the right to use them as you wish. It does not mean putting money into a Ponzi scheme.
And everyone wants to do well. In the Social Democracies of Europe, people still get large financial rewards for starting successful businesses.
But also in every country, most of what people do which is of social good, is not motivated by money.
Most all of our innovation is done by people who get very little money for it. Others come along later, in the Thomas Edison tradition, and capitalize on it and take credit for it.
SJG
John Dean: The Difference Between Trump & Nixon is Trump Says Publicly What Nixon Said on Wiretap
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/24/j…
This Modern World, by Tom Tomorrow
http://www.dailykos.com/blog/tom%20tomor…
Nice try to weasel out of your idiocy instead of just admitting you are wrong, moron. Political/economic is the same damn thing. And dictatorship unless it's the proletariat is fundamentally inconsistent with socialism.
Not at all surprise you tried to weasel out of that one, because, oh, boy did it prove what a complete shit for brains you are.
Here, Ro Khanna, claiming he is doing something for Silicon Valley, but replacing Mike Honda, a long serving congressman, with one of the most liberal voting records in the US House. Khanna is not going to do anything that Honda would not have done better.
But what he does do is put out his neo-liberal ideology. And all this does is denigrate working people.
He is working his hardest to build Dougster's two tier society, and to justify it. He seems to think that working class families are a social hygiene problem.
Khanna
https://youtu.be/ZGWWQQUGHAM?t=12m12s
SJG