OT: Socialism at it's finest.

TheeOSU
FUCK IT!
I'm surprised that the left leaning usually socialist supporting AP has actually published a news report that shows socialism's warts.


AP Analysis: Why Venezuelans have lost hope life will change

By HANNAH DREIER and JOSHUA GOODMAN Associated Press

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuela is so short on food that tens of thousands are going hungry or even starving. Its murder rate is among the highest in the world. Its economy is so crippled that the average shopper spends 35 hours a month waiting in line — three times more than in 2014.
Yet even as the country becomes increasingly unlivable, the socialist government is more entrenched than it has been in years. A sense of hopelessness has settled over what was once among the richest nations in South America, a belief that nothing will really change.

To understand why people have given up, look at Jhorman Valero and his family.

Three years ago, Valero dragged his 24-year-old cousin, Bassil da Costa, to join thousands of others in a nationwide protest against the administration of President Nicolas Maduro. Hours later, Bassil was bleeding in his arms, the first of more than 40 people to be killed during weeks of unrest. Staring numbly at the floor, Jhorman recounts how he watched his cousin's skull come apart under his baseball cap from a bullet shot by security forces.

Now Valero and Bassil's sister, Yenicer da Costa, no longer bother to protest, even on the anniversary of the 2014 protest.
“What's the point of protesting if they just kill you in the streets and, three years later, everything is even worse?” she said.

The fear inspired by the 2014 crackdown weighs heavily on the present, with a government that is selectively repressive. Many of more than 100 political prisoners were arrested that year and remain in jail, according to human rights groups. Most are being held incommunicado in the dungeons of El Helicoide, a spiral-shaped modernist landmark built as a shopping mall during the 1950s oil boom, which is now the headquarters of the all-powerful Sebin intelligence police.
The creation last month of an “anti-coup commando unit” headed by the vice president has stoked fears of more roundups. The unit already has arrested three members of the party of Leopoldo Lopez, the highest-profile prisoner, who led the protest at which Bassil was killed.
As the price of oil has fallen and laid bare years of mismanagement, Maduro's administration has responded by becoming more repressive. It has purged state institutions of potential traitors, kept out foreign reporters, detained prominent businessmen and declared null all decisions by the opposition-controlled congress.

As a result, the young people who would be the natural fuel for any street protest movement are not turning out. At demonstrations these days, there are more grandparents than youths.
One reason is that so many young people have simply fled the country.
The protest this month got off to an inauspicious start, with an older man shouting, “Where are all the students?” ‘'They didn't come!" called back Diego Cerboni, student union president at the private Santa Maria University.
Many of the friends Cerboni used to rely upon to demonstrate have left Venezuela. Cerboni estimates 100 students are leaving Santa Maria each week, forcing professors to consolidate sections and cancel under-enrolled classes at the 12,000-student campus.

One recent survey found 88 percent of young Venezuelans want to emigrate. Venezuelans accounted for more U.S. asylum requests than any other country last year — more than 18,000, compared to a few hundred in 2013. So many people are applying for passports that the government has run short of supplies and all but stopped issuing them.
“The government has a smart strategy. They keep us looking over our shoulder, keep us busy looking for food and medicine. You're working on how to get out of the country, and you don't have time to march,” Cerboni said.
Protester Marcello Gonzalez, 69, said all his 15 grandkids and seven of his 10 children have left the country.
“There's a terror campaign here,” he said. “The government is using tear gas and arrests to intimidate the young people and make them stay home. We older people don't have to worry as much. We know we're not the target.”

To be sure, the streets are not always calm. Twice last year, the opposition rallied hundreds of thousands of people to protest the Maduro administration. But while popular movements have helped topple governments in places like Egypt and Ukraine, Venezuela's protests seem to have had little effect on the political calculus of those in power.
“Ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall, a lot of people are walking around with this myth in our heads that if you get enough people into the streets, the government will fall. And that's just not true,” said Steven Levitsky, a professor at Harvard University who specializes in Latin American politics.
The loss of hope is also tied to the opposition's failure to present a clear alternative to the government. It is perennially divided and absorbed by its own internal ego battles.

The government has successfully made use of legal loopholes to hobble the opposition without much international protest. For much of last spring and summer, the opposition appeared to be getting back on track, collecting some 2 million signatures — 10 times the required minimum — to force a recall referendum against Maduro. Polls suggest 80 percent of the country want to vote him out. But after a mass demonstration with a million people in September grabbed international headlines, the government suspended the recall drive.
The Obama administration then dispatched a top diplomat to walk back the opposition leaders and tempt them with a Vatican-sponsored dialogue, which has since collapsed. In hindsight, to many it felt like capitulation, with the only result being that Maduro was never punished for trampling on the constitution. Now, there is an effort underway to block opposition parties from competing in future elections altogether.

The opposition may have found a more willing partner in U.S. President Donald Trump, who abruptly broke with the Obama administration's policy of relative restraint toward Venezuela. Trump met with protester Lopez's wife in the White House and slapped drug sanctions on Maduro's vice president within 30 days of taking office.
But while such a display of bravado is red meat to opposition hardliners, it could alienate the vast majority of Venezuelans who still revere the late President Hugo Chavez. And it only increases the odds that corrupt officials will close ranks for fear of being hunted down themselves should they ever lose power.
“It's the exact wrong thing. The opposition needs to convince the ruling elite that there's life after Maduro; that if they allow a transition, they're not going to end up in jail or exile. If the regime elite remains united, there's nothing in a protest movement that forces them to leave,” Levitsky said.

The protest to commemorate the 2014 deaths eventually grew to a few hundred people. Bassil's mother, Jineth Frias, showed up, somewhat reluctantly, and marched with other parents in front of a sign that said, “We remember our young.”
For the most part, she sees little point in taking to the streets, and turns to prayer instead. At her modest home on the outskirts of Caracas, she has built a tiny altar with a framed picture of Bassil in the black and yellow jersey of his favorite soccer team, hung alongside a statue of the Virgin Mary.
In the three years since his death, her family's predicament, like that of Venezuela, has only worsened. Her refrigerator is almost always empty and as a result she's lost 10 kilograms (22 pounds), in what Venezuelans call the “Maduro Diet.”
“I know it sounds terrible,” she confides between tears, “but I thank God he's not here to see this.”

63 comments

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skibum609
8 years ago
Socialism caters to those who take and harms those who give, so its' failure is guaranteed, unless of course a socialist country (europeans) can find a capitalist country filled with morons who will pay for their defense and protect their welfare states. America is that country of morons.
Papi_Chulo
8 years ago
Venezuela is a corrupt dictatorship and the main reason it has become a 3rd-world country - in Venezuela's case is not so much socialism that is the problem but an inept corrupt dictatorship that is closer to communism than European style socialism
twentyfive
8 years ago
Papi don't forget to add that Hugo Chavez was one of Fidel Castros understudies.
@TheeOSU Venezuela is a failed state not socialist it was run by an authoritarian dictator for years who had no opposition that could stand up to him. He killed and jailed all the opposition it has been on a downward spiral for years I wouldn't make that the centerpiece of anti socialist logic.
TheeOSU
8 years ago
25 are you saying a dictator can't run a socialist country, check your history. Venezuela was socialist under Chavez and yes it is slipping towards communism but it's roots are in socialism.

Every liberal's #1 or #2 news network.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/22/world/amer…

More for the non-believers

http://www.cityam.com/article/1393351308…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew…

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/…
twentyfive
8 years ago
What I said was not the best argument you could make against socialism and FWIW Venezuela was hardly a socialist state. It was capitalist before Chavez who tried to impose his brand of socialism better to cite maybe Peru as a quasi socialist or maybe Chile.
TheeOSU
8 years ago
Ahhh OK, maybe you should contact the AP and ask if their reporters can write articles about Peru and Chile while you sidestep the facts about Venezuela.
TheeOSU
8 years ago
Now i have to get back to work in our capitalist society. :D
twentyfive
8 years ago
Me too. )
Dominic77
8 years ago
I've talked with a few people, mostly college students in my classes and a couple instructors, that grew up under socialism and fled for the US. They all say the same thing:

--> "There is no such thing as socialism. You just end up with a few rich people and everyone else is equally poor."

I am skeptical that democratic socialism could ever exist or at least it wouldn't exist for long. It seems the end game is always Bolshevism or Chavezism, extreme concentration. It's similar to Strip Clubs. They might start out as show clubs but the market equilibrium is for brothels.

Dominic77
8 years ago
OSU --> "I'm surprised that the left leaning usually socialist supporting AP has actually published a news report that shows socialism's warts."

I have been seeing more self reflection on the left as of late, if you can believe that, following the election win of President Donald J. Trump. Many who were very egalitarian left leaning people (who left the safe spaces) are starting to realize that many of their ideals are Marxist philosophies that resemble the structure of the failed Eastern bloc, the failed Soviet Union, other totalitarian socialist states, like Venezuela.

Food for thought.
Dominic77
8 years ago
Also if one is determined to engage in wage theft or wealth theft, it's better to just 'do it yourself' and cut out the middle man (i.e., government). I'm sarcastic but while it is not PC (and downright chilling), there is logic there.
skibum609
8 years ago
Whenever Socialism fails, someone else is to blame, or the country isn't "really Socialist" and its all bullshit. Greece is the epitome of Socialism and has been a failed basket supported by others, for longer than anyone posting here has been alive. Iceland failed. Italy is failing and so is Spain. In fact, none of these Socialist countries would have ever existed if the Marshall Plan didn't save them and we didn't defend them. We don't border Russia and if Europe was left to defend itself there'd be no Socialism at all because we wouldn't be paying for their military. If they had t o spend what others spend there'd be no money left for the free loaders.
twentyfive
8 years ago
^^^Why do you give a shit you haven't paid your fucking taxes in years, dumbass.
Dominic77
8 years ago
I accidentally left out Greece, thanks for including that. Other than a setup like small Greek city states, it probably wouldn't work. The takeaway like skibum said is that almost every socialist or communist attempt fails.

Hell, just seeming my healthcare getting even more fucked up after Obamacare was enacted FINALLY convinced me that you can, in fact, run out of other people's money. I actually thought you guys were bitching just to bitch. But you really CAN run out of other people's money.

Speaking of other people's money. On Doctors & Physician forums, they bitch and moan (very convincingly I might add) that the reason healthcare and drugs/pharma are so cheap, or the reason why shit is like less than 50% of what shits costs in the U.S., is that U.S. medicine (incl. R&D) is subsidizing the rest of the world. The Physicians that post there do make convincing arguments.

So in a way the U.S. is really propping up a lot of the rest of the world. The flip side is that the world cannot support 7 billion people with a U.S. standard of living either. So 1. There is give and take and 2. nothing exists in a vacuum.
Dominic77
8 years ago
Skibum, I think what the legal immigrants mean, whatever academic ideal exists for Marxism, is doesn't exist, and every experiment ends in failure. That's more a sematics lesson for the students that for you and me.

Skibum and I know that socialism exists, it sucks, and it never works long term anytime it has been attempted.
twentyfive
8 years ago
@Dominic the main reason that health care is so expensive is the fucking insurance companies take 11 cents out of every dollar spent on health care, they take 27 cents on every dollar that physicians earn,(malpractice) and hospitals are run by companies that spend tremendous amounts of money for things that are marked up egregiously, the supply side of health care is an industry that is hell bent on gouging everybody that comes in contact with them because unlike a car or any other consumer product when you need care you need it now, no time to shop around and compare costs, as a result the costs are out of control, other factors effecting costs, lawyers specializing in getting money for nonexistent losses, pharma companies gouging consumers and so on.
The entire system is out of control and Obamacare didn't help. The only real way to get the system back in control is regulation that isn't written by lobbyists, our representatives have no real incentive to fix the system, unless we can force them to access health care the same way that we have to, as it stands now all congressmen, senators, and federal legislators have gold standard health care paid for by the US taxpayers, if we took that away you would see how fast the system would change.
Remember the insurance companies are the ones that actually wrote the laws regarding health care, and they are the ones making the most money from the system as it exists.
jester214
8 years ago
We've never seen pure socialism. We probably never will. It's seemingly great in theory but absolutely impossible to put into practice.
san_jose_guy
8 years ago
Usually the right holds up Venezuela, Cuba, Russian, and China as negative examples of Socialism. But the problem with all of these places is that they have no history of democracy. Their leaders may claim to support socialism, but there is no working democracy, so it is just an autocracy.

If you want to see how advanced industrial democracies implement socialism, look to the Social Democracies of Western Europe, especially Scandinavia. This should show you both the good and the bad.

One thing, once they got a social safety net and universal health care, church attendance tanked.

SJG
flagooner
8 years ago
How is it great in theory??????

There is no incentive for anyone to excel and reach their potential.

I guess some people do value panticipation trophies.
san_jose_guy
8 years ago
Flagooner, lots of people say things like what you are saying. But I disagree with you.

Everyone wants to do well, so that they can be admired by friends and family. People only get otherwise when they find everything to be completely unfair and so they give up.

And these Social Democracies of Western Europe, they are not places where you cannot own anything more than a shovel or where the government owns everything. They are moderate. They have a social safety net, and some public ownership, and they have maybe 10 to 15% higher upper income taxes.

And the reason for this is that they are democracies, all issues are openly debated, and people vote as they do.

The highest period of economic growth in the US was the Eisenhower Kennedy years, when upper income taxes exceed 90%.

Europe is nothing like that today.

During the mid 1960's the US was about on par with Western Europe, and going in the same direction. But then Richard Nixon unveiled his Southern Strategy, using our country's horrible history of race relations to drive the politics to the Right, and then following that up with strategies of using social wedge issues to peel off swing voters.

SJG
flagooner
8 years ago
I guess that is why it is theory and not reality.

Most people realize that they don't get anything extra for working harder, get disallusioned, and slack off.

Keep living in Fantasyland.
san_jose_guy
8 years ago
Most people want to do good things, and so they work hard to prepare and to do this. What they do is not just based on what they are paid.

And look at Scandinavia, that is reality right now.

No personal disrespect flagooner, but you and lots of our other members live in land of right wing ideology which has little to do with reality.

SJG
san_jose_guy
8 years ago
Most people don't want an US versus THEM kind of society. It is Right Wing think tanks which try to make people want that.

SJG
larryfishsticks
8 years ago
bring the world together through fish and tartar sauce
Dougster
8 years ago
I still say the US is the most socialistic country in world history because here workers through stock ownership including 401ks and business ownership own more of the means of production than anywhere else. And this is the reason the US is (easily) the most successful country in world history.
twentyfive
8 years ago
Most of these idiots here don't realize that most everything, run by any government is socialism, the United States Armed Forces is the definition of socialism.
twentyfive
8 years ago
so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
noun
1. a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
jester214
8 years ago
"How is it great in theory??????

There is no incentive for anyone to excel and reach their potential"

In theory everyone would be well provided for and taken care of. They would excel for the general benefit of everyone.

To me that sounds pretty good. But that's just theory and we'll never actually see that because that's not human nature.
Dougster
8 years ago
I'm using Marx's definition.
Dougster
8 years ago
Even by that definition, the US seems like the closest. Lots of people don't own any part of the means of production: no stocks, no private equity, but that % is probably smaller than in any other country. So more people own some part of it here than anywhere else.
skibum609
8 years ago
Socialist frauds always claim that "true socialism" makes everyone equally well off and all are provided for and taken care of. They never explain that without the ability to leach off America and the fact they are far north and don't border impoverished countries is why Scandanavia has succeeded for a brief, coming to an end, period of time. Hey TWENTY FIVE that gubmint cheese you love is paid for by my taxes. Socialists have a great idea, except for the fact they need to leech of capitalists and contribute nothing in order to succeed. They are adored by those who cannot and will not compete. Those who fend for themselves survive and that isn't socialist.
twentyfive
8 years ago
Hey skidum when did you get back from the klan meeting. Did you socialists decide which yard you were going to burn a cross in this month or have you run all of the minority's off in your neck of the woods. We'd like y'all to come around these parts our minority's are getting mighty uppity maybe they can Lynch your rancid bigoted ass Don't worry we all paid our taxes so we stills gots some guberment cheese for sammiches at ow paty
rockstar666
8 years ago
Both pure capitalism (like in Thailand) and pure socialism (N. Korea) are bad ideas. America has what I consider the best of both systems, at least we will when we get national health care. We have free enterprise in most areas, and the government runs things that only a government can do.
Dougster
8 years ago
^^^ see there is another brain dead twit (this time on the left) who confuses absolute totalitarian dictatorship with "socialism". What on earth do workers own and control in N Korea? Answer nothing. Certainly not the means of production.
Dougster
8 years ago
And skihomo, as usual, is hilarious for his idiocy as usual. He be like "you can't give me an example of Socialism working. It always fails. Always!" Then someone throws out Scandanavia and he is like "Yeah, okay that worked there, but it's about to end. (I guess when we see the market crash he is talking about?) But only for a while. Like I said it never works anywhere. Never!"

What a dumb fag.
Dougster
8 years ago
Finally, can someone find me a quote in Marx where he said the goal of socialism was to make everyone "equally well off"? Everyone seems to assume that is a goal, but if it's a "dictatorship of the proletariat" the proletariat could very well decided that get paid unequally in order to incentive people to work hard.
Mate27
8 years ago
My friends from Norway and Sweden will tell you that they'd rather not be in socialism. 50% of their earnings the gobernment takes, which is good when you need health care or education, but the majority of time you don't need it as a working stiff. They tell me they'd rather pay for those things when they need them, save up for those needs, and take the time to spend that tax money as they see fit.

The Scandinavians also tell me most people believe that way, but their system is so entrenched that nothing can be changed. Any time there is economic downward cycles the government usually is slow to respond and it takes them much longer to come out of it. It really doesn't work in Scandinavia as well as capitalism, it's just as a culture they've learned to adapt.
flagooner
8 years ago
Is that grape or cherry Kool-Aid?
“a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated BY THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE.”

While that is a good definition, it is also important to look at how Socialism operates. The governing body owns and operates the means of production for the entire community’s benefit. In exchange, each individual is provided with their basic needs. The goal is equality for all, in terms of wealth. There isn’t a problem keeping up with the Joneses, the problem is that there isn’t an ability to do better. I won’t go down the path of the Joneses being lower-middle class at best in a socialistic society because my point isn’t about the merits of Capitalism vs. Socialism, it’s about whether the U.S. is in fact Socialist.

Of course it isn’t.

Yes there are portions of our society that are socialistic, but that is a far cry from Socialism. There is Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, Medicaid, education grants, … that provide safety nets for the disadvantaged, but the ability to thrive by working hard and smart is achievable. It’s called the American Dream. It may not be easy or guaranteed, but it is possible and one of the things this country is founded on.

I don’t consider the military to be Socialism. Yes, it is run by the government, but there is an opportunity to flourish by working hard and getting promotions. Also, it is strictly volunteer without a draft. I may be wrong here, there is always a first, but when evaluating if Socialism is in play I tend to look at how REVENUE GENERATING businesses are owned and how the profits are distributed. I also look at how coddled the masses are.

As for public and private companies, there is regulation to help prevent corruption and unfair practices. However, they are owned by individuals or groups of individuals (stockholders) but not the community as a whole. And the proceeds go to the owners, not the community as a whole.

I could go on, but I’ll get off my soapbox.
I’m starting to feel like I’m emulating SJG, writing a long-winded political post that will never get read.
Dougster
8 years ago
I don't know, man. I traveled to Scandinavia. Did not seem like a country falling apart to me. Very prosperous actually. And the women... Out of this world. Finest on the planet.
jackslash
8 years ago
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."--Marx

I don't know if that's the same as everybody being equally well off, but it's close. Marx recognizes that different people have different needs and abilities, that people can't be mathematically equal. Everybody should be working hard to help everybody. Marx assumes a level of altruism that is unattainable.
JimGassagain
8 years ago
The psychological benefit of Scandinavia socialism is that nobody thinks they're better than anyone else, because they can't. It's too difficult to get ahead so most just do enough to get by. There is not as much jealousy or people thinking they're missing out on prosperity. Everyone is mediocre with mainly complaining about taking care of the lazy people.
RandomMember
8 years ago
"I’m starting to feel like I’m emulating SJG, writing a long-winded political post that will never get read."
--------------------
Naw...good post @flag and I read the whole thing. Not everyone has the aptitude to go into quantitative finance, and we have a moral obligation to provide health care and education for the poor -- even if some of them are lazy or not too bright. We have a great capitalistic society with some of the best elements of socialism.

Don't forget that we need enough government regulation to prevent unbridled capitalism from blowing up the economy, again.

...and we need enough incentive for people to work hard and innovate in areas like medicine, engineering, applied science. That doesn't mean we need more gold-plated toilets for billionaires. There's some middle ground that has the best elements of capitalism and socialism.
Dougster
8 years ago
^^^ +1 (cflock quality post)
twentyfive
8 years ago
@Flagooner another example of socialism right here in the USA The Green Bay Packers, the fans own the team, the employees make more money than the shareholders, and the wealth that the team generates is not equally distributed.
rockstar666
8 years ago
Dougster, I'm surprised you're confusing an economic system with a political system. Not all socialist countries are dictatorships.

I'm NOT surprisded you use personal insults. It's who you are.
TheeOSU
8 years ago
"While that is a good definition, it is also important to look at how Socialism operates. The governing body owns and operates the means of production for the entire community’s benefit. In exchange, each individual is provided with their basic needs. The goal is equality for all, in terms of wealth. There isn’t a problem keeping up with the Joneses, the problem is that there isn’t an ability to do better. I won’t go down the path of the Joneses being lower-middle class at best in a socialistic society because my point isn’t about the merits of Capitalism vs. Socialism, it’s about whether the U.S. is in fact Socialist.

Of course it isn’t.

Yes there are portions of our society that are socialistic, but that is a far cry from Socialism. There is Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, Medicaid, education grants, … that provide safety nets for the disadvantaged, but the ability to thrive by working hard and smart is achievable. It’s called the American Dream. It may not be easy or guaranteed, but it is possible and one of the things this country is founded on.

I don’t consider the military to be Socialism. Yes, it is run by the government, but there is an opportunity to flourish by working hard and getting promotions. Also, it is strictly volunteer without a draft. I may be wrong here, there is always a first, but when evaluating if Socialism is in play I tend to look at how REVENUE GENERATING businesses are owned and how the profits are distributed. I also look at how coddled the masses are.

As for public and private companies, there is regulation to help prevent corruption and unfair practices. However, they are owned by individuals or groups of individuals (stockholders) but not the community as a whole. And the proceeds go to the owners, not the community as a whole."

^
This! Well said!
twentyfive
8 years ago
Guys our military is by it's very definition socialistic, it is run by the government for the benefit of our country, nowhere in socialism is there an equality compact, of course talented and harder working folks get ahead that is generally accepted, even in completely socialist countries. Think of Putin and the Russian oligarch's, the middle and upper classes in many Scandinavian countries, so on and so forth.
BTW North Korea is not socialist, the government and whom it benefits are only available to a select few that are privileged through their connections by birth there is no meritocracy, which is what many seem to be equating socialism with.
skibum609
8 years ago
As we say around ehere TWENTY FIVE you are a wicked fuckin tahd. Your silly poor me I am a minority act doesn't work with anyone other than progressives, you know, insecure dweebs. The best example of socialism isn't the Green Bay Packers, its in fact Mad River Glen ski area. Owned by people, sort of line a non on-line crowd funding. Poor people pay a lot to ski there and the rich own it and never miss a cent they lose in owning it. By the way Dougie, I realize you're a fraud, but you're also a lousy liar. I explained that socialism works when there are others to leech off; thats why it works in Scandinbavian countries. Can you please make up more strip club lies in the future and leave lying about other things to others? Thought not tahd.
twentyfive
8 years ago
Do they hold KKK meetings in Mad River Glen, sounds like a place just for you.
skibum609
8 years ago
So racist ignorant 25 how is Mike Brown doing? Still dead? Like he so richly deserved? Do Black Lies Matter?
twentyfive
8 years ago
Holy hell skidum is melting down just like SJG,
On a sober note what the fuck is wrong with you, dead kids of whatever race, is fucking terrible you really are rancid piece of bigoted shit.
skibum609
8 years ago
Fuck off you ignorant, racist, whiny, little bitch. Talk about melting down lol. I am watching people move my office today and teasing an ignorant low life. Glad Mike Brown is dead. He was a violent criminal.
twentyfive
8 years ago
Guess you needed to move the protesters were killing your practice
TheeOSU
8 years ago
@25, kid?
At the time of his death, Mike Brown was 18 years old, was 6 ft 4 in tall, and weighed 292 lb, legally an adult and a mighty big one at that! His end started when he stole from a store and assaulted a store clerk that confronted him. The end came when he attacked and tried to kill a cop that had stopped him.
The Nobama justice department did their best to prosecute the cop that shot him but the facts are that the shooting was justified. That "kid" received his deserved justice.
skibum609
8 years ago
We bought a building 25. Protesters? LOL. The "big" protest, wlll it looked big on tv, by the left in Boston, in support of illegal aliens was about 195 - 201 people by my in person count. No I wasn't protesting, I am always curious about the get a lifers with nothing to do on the left. Next time you're in Massachusetts 25 come watch me in Court with my clients. When you get a look at them and have a coronary it will be great fun. OSU - the Justice Department investigation and autopsy, performed by the racist Eric Holder, came to the conclusion that Mike Brown, was shot at very close range, in the cops car, as he struggled for his gun. It was the third investigation that showed a justified shooting. Of course the white guy who the cop in Plymouth, Massachusetts last summer, who was totally unarmed, never gets a mention in police brutality stories.
twentyfive
8 years ago
@TheeOSU. Let me be crystal clear at no time was I defending Mike Brown I am not looking to relitigate this matter as nauseum this idiot used what is a tragedy in a way that is just stupid iand warranted and he isn't fit to be a lawyer let alone be in the company of moral people. If you can't make a distinction between what he did and my reply let me lay it out for you. What his agenda is is similar to SJG takes a thread about socialism where reasonable people can disagree and twists it to fit his narrow minded narrative And yes at my age 63 an 18 yo is just a kid don't you think it is a tragedy that his behavior was such that the police officer felt he had no choice. In my book that is a tragedy.
TheeOSU
8 years ago
Fair enough 25 I see your perspective but IMO the real tragedy is the way the media tried their best to incite people and pushed their fake agenda to find that cop guilty all in the name of factual honest reporting, of which it was anything but. There are still people out there that believe the lies that were pandered regarding that case. That's tragic.
jester214
8 years ago
As I recall Marx very pointedly never described the society he saw coming. That was for the workers/people to plan together afterwards.
flagooner
8 years ago
This has disintegrated into a pretty humorous thread.
Hugh_G_Rection
8 years ago
^^^ Flagooner nailed it!

TheeOSU has proclaimed me a leftist kook in another thread today, I think I have a balanced and cynical perspective here:

"Under Capitalism everything is Dog Eat Dog, Under Communism it is just the reverse".

I get it, The Castro brothers and Chavez weren't exactly doing things for reasons of charity... but they aren't the ones who have kicked me in the wallet lately- its more the Koch brothers and Wall Street that sold me down the street.
san_jose_guy
8 years ago
Dougster wrote:

"
• I still say the US is the most socialistic country in world history because here workers through stock ownership including 401ks and business ownership own more of the means of production than anywhere else
"

He has said things like this before and it is patent bullshit.

Ownership of the means of production means real 'ownership', meaning the right to use them as you wish. It does not mean putting money into a Ponzi scheme.

And everyone wants to do well. In the Social Democracies of Europe, people still get large financial rewards for starting successful businesses.

But also in every country, most of what people do which is of social good, is not motivated by money.

Most all of our innovation is done by people who get very little money for it. Others come along later, in the Thomas Edison tradition, and capitalize on it and take credit for it.

SJG

John Dean: The Difference Between Trump & Nixon is Trump Says Publicly What Nixon Said on Wiretap
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/24/j…

This Modern World, by Tom Tomorrow
http://www.dailykos.com/blog/tom%20tomor…
Dougster
8 years ago
rockstar: "Dougster, I'm surprised you're confusing an economic system with a political system. Not all socialist countries are dictatorships"

Nice try to weasel out of your idiocy instead of just admitting you are wrong, moron. Political/economic is the same damn thing. And dictatorship unless it's the proletariat is fundamentally inconsistent with socialism.

Not at all surprise you tried to weasel out of that one, because, oh, boy did it prove what a complete shit for brains you are.
san_jose_guy
8 years ago
The dangerous political and economic system today is neo-liberalism.

Here, Ro Khanna, claiming he is doing something for Silicon Valley, but replacing Mike Honda, a long serving congressman, with one of the most liberal voting records in the US House. Khanna is not going to do anything that Honda would not have done better.

But what he does do is put out his neo-liberal ideology. And all this does is denigrate working people.

He is working his hardest to build Dougster's two tier society, and to justify it. He seems to think that working class families are a social hygiene problem.

Khanna
https://youtu.be/ZGWWQQUGHAM?t=12m12s

SJG
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