Flag-worshippers need to understand that stepping on the flag IS a consititionally protected right and NOT a "gut punch to military kids." Wtf? I know there are some Flag-worshippers here who will disagree but this mindless worshipping of a flag is getting way too sensitive.
Here is the thing..... Is it a freedom of speech issue.... YES. Does he have the right to do that... YES. Did he go about it the wrong way.... ABSOLUTELY. He is a public figure and needs to think about how his actions are viewed by others. He needs to think about his career (especially as a first year teacher), he needs to think about the school he represents, etc. That is where he really screwed up. He will lose his job and should rightfully so. It is bringing unwanted attention to his school. He has a code of conduct I am sure he broke. Teachers get fired over that stuff daily. Also with this teacher stating he wants the student to be brought up on legal charges.... ummm.... wrong. The student has the right to take the pictures of him (he could be breaking a school policy but not legal policy)..... that teacher makes the comment.... If I cant take a picture of him, he cant take a picture of me..... WRONG... One is a minor and you need parent permission to take a picture. The other is not.
Nina.... you say it isn't a gut punch to a military kid? How do you know? I got a question for you.... when ever the N word gets said.... do you feel a little gut punch? Or do other Black Americans feel a gut punch?? Because that as well can be freedom of speech.
This business of desecrating the flag seems to be a phase that these children go through, I am starting to come to the realization that these people are acting out like a bunch of little children, and the best way for a parent to get children to behave and socialize normally is to ignore this ridiculous behavior, in other words don't allow them any reaction at all. If they keep getting attention from the adults they keep on acting out. This isn't new or even original, I remember protesters against the Vietnamese war using the flag as a prop.
I and many others have pointed this out on many other threads, that just because you can doesn't mean you should. As a question to those of you that really don't get it, why do you want to antagonize many people, that are on your side in this discussion? Make no mistake about it this type of behavior is as inflammatory to many of us who believe in social justice, as using derogatory slurs against other races or religions.
In the course of human history real change has never come by alienating the majority, rather change has occurred by convincing the majority to get on the right side of history,because it is the right thing to do!
I don't like anyone to stomp or burn the American flag. But it is a form of expression that should be protected. I don't think the teacher should be fired or suspended, but I would tell him I don't like what he did.
Lots of things that are protected by the constitution are still morally reprehensible. Those asshats that protest funerals instance...
To a lot of people, maybe even most, the flag represents a lot of important things and some very strong emotions. How can anyone then suggest it's trivial to desecrate that representation?
Did the teacher do something illegal? No, of course not.
Was it a really poor use of judgement and a bad way of explaining the first amendment? Absolutely, especially given he was teaching in pretty big military town.
-->" Here is the thing..... Is it a freedom of speech issue.... YES. Does he have the right to do that... YES. Did he go about it the wrong way.... ABSOLUTELY. He is a public figure and needs to think about how his actions are viewed by others ... when ever the N word gets said.... do you feel a little gut punch? Because that as well can be freedom of speech." -->
I think that's the right analogy. They are both spoken provocative acts of protected speech. I'm not a "flag worshipper" and frankly don't care much when people do these types of things. But a teacher, who is in a position that usually requires good judgement, should probably refrain from both of these acts.
I don't understand why people equate the flag with expeditionary wars. The flag stands for our Constitution, not our armed forces. The military doesn't own the flag; the people of the United States own it. After all, the president is a civilian.
Haha did anybody else catch that last paragraph on this article? Typical fox news quick to make snarky bias jokes and not stick reporting. Really faux? Props to God for the nickname
here is a question I have for our Black - Americans....... How do they feel about the Confederate Flag?? It is just a flag right??? You have to remember if one thing is offense or viewed as offensive and wrong...ie: confederate flag.... how can stomping on another flag not be deemed offensive and wrong?? It is a two way street here. Just food for thought is all.
twentyfive..... I think this teacher will be fired. Not because he stomped the flag.... because of his conduct. Like I mentioned many schools have "conduct" policies and procedures they have to follow in the classroom. You know... dress codes, follow certain state standards, things they can post on the walls, behavior, interactions with students, etc. I believe this will fall into that category.
Speaking of conduct, this is from the Cumberland County School Policy Code 1710/4021/7230:
Prohibition Against Discrimination, Harassment and Bullying
...
A. PROHIBITED BEHAVIORS AND CONSEQUENCES
1. Discrimination, Harassment and Bullying
Students, school system employees, volunteers and visitors are expected to behave in a civil and respectful manner.
...
Any violation of this policy is serious, and school officials shall promptly take appropriate action.
...
Employees who violate this policy will be subject to disciplinary action, up to, and including, dismissal.
--------
Tiburon, check the top of the web page, its an opinion piece that is in Fox's opinion section.
Beaver.... that is exactly why I say this teach will get fired. Because of what you just posted.
Then I am sure he will get a lawyer and try to sue the school district. He will settle for less and the tax payers for that district will pay in taxes because of this law suit and the fact that the school districts insurance will go up because of this action. If you people don't think that the schools insurance wont be affected.... you are blind. The school will go into their Errors and Omissions policy to defend this action along with their liability policy. And because a suit is brought up against them and the insurance company pays. It will make their experience mod (or other factors) increase the premium they will pay for years to come.
Just like if you are involved in an auto accident and your insurance company pays money out... your premiums can increase and typically do.
crsm, it was kinda funny that I had just looked up their policy and then saw your post. It dovetailed perfectly for you.
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I think administrative leave for a week or two is appropriate.
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“That was not the goal, that was not the point of the lesson,” he said. “For me, it was about the First Amendment, teaching about the Bill of Rights, the beginning of what we call America.”
I wonder if he planned to teach the the 2nd Amendment in similar fashion. You know, bringing in a Barrett .50 cal.
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And thx Nina for invalidating an active duty parent's opinion. Who else would know better about how these military kids feel than stripper four states away?
Todd Sternes is still a representative of Fox News and would have to be processed through editorial staff before publishing. Thus it's still the like mind of Fox News.
I agree that administrative leave would be better. But here is the thing... .he is a first year teacher. Most of them are on 1 year contracts (most schools I have dealt with) and he has no pull with school boards, parents, etc. So odds are he will be terminated.
I also like your take on what is his lesson plans for the other amendments.....LOL
He went about the wrong way of teaching it. There are many vids he could have showed in class with "flag burnings" or other demostrations where people stomped, stepped on, burned, spit on, etc.... the flag.
But again... poor delivery will be his downfall and cost him his job.
You're probably right. I've taught flag history and protocol to Cub Scouts and Daisies (Girl Scouts). I always cover flag burning, both respectful retirement and political speech. Never felt the need to actually give a demonstration of political speech. I try to instill that if you desecrate the flag, you better be very sure that's how hard you want to go at an issue. This guy had no issue, just wanted to do it.
I agree with the Beaver in that he could have had an effective lecture minus the shock value. You don't need to demonstrate that flag desecration is a protected form of speech.
What if in a demonstration of free speech he started calling Obama a lazy, shiftless nigger? He would have been fired on the spot for Constitutionally protected speech, but rightly so. Even in a college class, professors need to be respectful and keep their politics to themselves (unless that's the point of the class at least).
"here is a question I have for our Black - Americans....... How do they feel about the Confederate Flag?? It is just a flag right??? You have to remember if one thing is offense or viewed as offensive and wrong...ie: confederate flag.... how can stomping on another flag not be deemed offensive and wrong?? It is a two way street here. Just food for thought is all."
I don't care for one or the other. Stepping on(or burning for all the fucks I give) either one is not offensive to me. I wouldn't do it but fuck both flags.
What I am getting at is that one time it was debated about the Confederate Flag here and other places. Where people said that the flag offended them. Then some of those same people are saying.... why be flag Worshipers.
The point I am making is you can't say one is offensive..... then in the same breathe say why does it matter about another flag. It is hypocrisy at its finest.
Just like someone commented on here, "Flag-worshippers need to understand that stepping on the flag IS a consititionally protected right".... Well isn't flying a certain flag a constitutional right?
Disclaimer..... I don't give two shits about the confederate flag. But just saying that if people deem one as bad and needs to be abolished. Yet if someone wants to desecrate one it is freedom of speech. I hope people see the Hypocrisy.
Chess "Why does a flag mean more than black lives???" I will answer your question this way, the flag you are disrespecting is a symbol of the first, and one of very few countries on the planet earth to allow the protestors the right to speak out against almost any injustice, perceived or otherwise valid. BTW the flag is not intended to mean more than any lives, but is supposed to be representative of the principles, by which we pledge, to give our lives and our sacred honor to defend.
In other words I may disagree with you completely but I will fight till my death for you to have the right to disagree!
chessmaster..... First off...All lives matter......
Second.... this isn't a "race" debate. Race was brought into the mix to prove a point. Like how can someone say that the military kids shouldn't feel "gut punched".... yet those same people will say that others don't know what if feels like to be a person of color. It is the same thing..... we all don't know how another person feels about anything. I mean I love the Mc Rib...... You don't know what I am feeling the day it comes back on the menu or how I feel the day it goes away... (adding some humor...but truth behind we don't know how others feel about anything... that is why they are called personal feelings.)
This teacher didn't say he was being political about any of the stuff going on in the USA.... he was just trying to demonstrate the first amendment.
Here is food for thought... What flag did the North carry into battle? Which flag did the south carry into battle? So now if you disrespect the flag that the army carried into battle to fight for the right of freedom for the black slaves.... are you disrespecting what they thought it represented??? Just like people think the confederate flag represents black oppression??? Just something to think about.
"But just saying that if people deem one as bad and needs to be abolished. Yet if someone wants to desecrate one it is freedom of speech. I hope people see the Hypocrisy."
You Chess are being the hypocrite, I conceded that you have the right and am willing to defend it, you sir are being offensive by disrespecting my point of view.
^how so? I completely respect your point of view and thank you for your service. The flag represents something you and others fight to defend. So I understand and respect your point of view.
But still, we're having an argument over a piece of cloth.
Because to you my ideals are just a piece of cloth. Yet I also have the right to do things that offend you, the difference between us is I refrain from exercising that right as a show of respect to you, and yet you seem to feel a need to invade my space to try and prove a moot point. That will never work out well.
Before we can reach a compromise of any sort we need to decide what we agree on, the ultimate goal is to build on our shared strength, something that works, if you think my ideals are just a piece of cloth we wont ever reach a shared goal.
"But still, we're having an argument over a piece of cloth."
Chess, it means a lot more to a lot of people than a "piece of cloth." It's a piece of cloth people have died while defending it. Just like people have died defending their religious beliefs and their loved ones. It's more than cloth, it's a way of life, a meaning, a purpose, representing freedom to many, so significant people are willing to die for it.
A lot of other nations inhabitants would not be so passionate over their country's or territories flag.
Every time any topic comes up that's a debate you ALWAYS make it a race issue. Why do you do that every single fucking time?
People did not die defending the flag. They fought to defend a country and its civilians, not whether or not a flag should be "disrespected." Also, some of them died in wars driven by greed (like this current one), not an actual need to defend your family and/or fellow Americans. I think American lives take precendent over the life of a flag, and that's why soldiers defend their country, not "the flag."
Shailynn - crsm27 was actually the first to bring up race, when he made the unfitting analogy of the n-word (which is not comparable to the issue but I won't get into that. If you're going to blame someone for "bringing race into things," blame the corrent person --- not just the one whose view is different than yours. Many people brought up race before he did.
Nina is right. I'm saddened by how many people think the military owns the flag. It's a symbol of the PEOPLE; how it's citizens who are served by the government. What it stands for has NOTHING to do with any war ever though most veterans think it's all about them. Sorry guys and gals; the flag is about our Constitution, NOT you.
BTW.... people fight for "flags" all the time. History lesson..... All through out history armies carried flags with them into battle to show pride in their country and who they are and who they are fighting for and the ideals of that country they are fighting for or defending. So the flag is a symbol that represents our country. Just like a mascot represents a sports team or the Nike "swoosh" represents a company..... So yes people are fighting for that symbol.
Nina..... I used that analogy to show that you don't know how a military kid feels when a flag is getting disrespected. So it was very appropriate. Just like a person of non color doesn't know how it feels to be called or hear the N word.
But you saying that it doesn't apply or doesn't show my point..... YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG. Because you came out saying that it isn't a gut punch to a military kid. Again how do you know how it felt to that kid or any military kid.
But again you will bring up how people of color cant be racists and with that, I am sorry to say, you lose all credibility with me to have an open discussion about anything race related.
The flag is about our country.... Everyone. The military defends our country.... they put their life on the line for our country. The flag symbolizes our country.... So you know what.... If a military person wants to say they fight for that symbol.... Then I am all for what they say. You are correct it isn't "thiers"... it is "ours". But they put their life on the line for that symbol.... that symbol that represents the USA..... They wear it everyday on their uniform.... they salute it.... so they feel pride in it. Just like people feel pride when they put on a football jersy of their favorite team.... (or any sports team, company logo, etc)
Yes, military people are far more involved with the symbolism of the flag than most people. You don't take a job that might kill you without some pretty lofty ideals to begin with.
But they shouldn't take it personally when someone takes a knee during the national anthem because the protest is not about the military. As I said, I'd be burning American flags as a protest if burning were illegal. This has NOTHING to do with the brave men and women sent out in expeditionary wars! My dad is an army veteran in fact. My protest would be about limiting political speech in what I would consider a violation of our Constitutional right to make politically unpopular speech.
The athletes protesting today are saying that they feel like second class citizens the way they are treated in many instances, and I agree. My original complaint was they should protest on their own time, but I've changed my mind. I think getting white people upset and starting conversations is probably going to lead to a better country in time. That being said, I do stand and remove my hat when the anthem is played because I don't feel as compelled to protest inequalities as some of my brothers.
This thread and debate was about the teacher stomping on the flag to show first amendment rights. Then Nina says the military kids shouldn't feel "gut punched".... well how does she now how they feel. Just like I stated a person of non color doesn't know how it feels when someone of color hears or is called the N word. Then Chestmaster called the flag a "piece of cloth".... well that is how he sees it but others don't.
Now the teacher was right in that demo of the 1st Ad. rights..... but he did it very poorly. It is like teaching sex ed and showing how a baby is made by showing a prono. Same message but wrong delivery. Plus like beaver showed.... he broke school conduct issues.
Like I said before.... this teacher will lose his job because of a poor delivery of a good message.
This is a circular conversation.
Most of us here have conceded that acting like a disrespectful jerk is a form of protected speech. The real problem is that being a disrespectful jerk is becoming commonplace.
Rockstar if you didn't want me to take it personally, why would you do it ? That is just being stupid. A little respect goes a long way.
The way i see it is i will not stoop down to your level and call you names, so you folks that think the flag is something to be used as a pulpit for their own personal agenda, are wrong, and no amount of moralizing or trying to invent false equivalencies will make your lack of manners and decency any less obvious.
I love America. Freedom is fantastic. And I love the fact we live in the USA, not China or North Korea. You can desecrate our flag, and maybe look like an idiot, but it's free speech. As a fan of the Constitution, I believe in free speech.
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Nina.... you say it isn't a gut punch to a military kid? How do you know? I got a question for you.... when ever the N word gets said.... do you feel a little gut punch? Or do other Black Americans feel a gut punch?? Because that as well can be freedom of speech.
I and many others have pointed this out on many other threads, that just because you can doesn't mean you should. As a question to those of you that really don't get it, why do you want to antagonize many people, that are on your side in this discussion? Make no mistake about it this type of behavior is as inflammatory to many of us who believe in social justice, as using derogatory slurs against other races or religions.
In the course of human history real change has never come by alienating the majority, rather change has occurred by convincing the majority to get on the right side of history,because it is the right thing to do!
To a lot of people, maybe even most, the flag represents a lot of important things and some very strong emotions. How can anyone then suggest it's trivial to desecrate that representation?
Did the teacher do something illegal? No, of course not.
Was it a really poor use of judgement and a bad way of explaining the first amendment? Absolutely, especially given he was teaching in pretty big military town.
I think that's the right analogy. They are both spoken provocative acts of protected speech. I'm not a "flag worshipper" and frankly don't care much when people do these types of things. But a teacher, who is in a position that usually requires good judgement, should probably refrain from both of these acts.
twentyfive..... I think this teacher will be fired. Not because he stomped the flag.... because of his conduct. Like I mentioned many schools have "conduct" policies and procedures they have to follow in the classroom. You know... dress codes, follow certain state standards, things they can post on the walls, behavior, interactions with students, etc. I believe this will fall into that category.
Prohibition Against Discrimination, Harassment and Bullying
...
A. PROHIBITED BEHAVIORS AND CONSEQUENCES
1. Discrimination, Harassment and Bullying
Students, school system employees, volunteers and visitors are expected to behave in a civil and respectful manner.
...
Any violation of this policy is serious, and school officials shall promptly take appropriate action.
...
Employees who violate this policy will be subject to disciplinary action, up to, and including, dismissal.
--------
Tiburon, check the top of the web page, its an opinion piece that is in Fox's opinion section.
Then I am sure he will get a lawyer and try to sue the school district. He will settle for less and the tax payers for that district will pay in taxes because of this law suit and the fact that the school districts insurance will go up because of this action. If you people don't think that the schools insurance wont be affected.... you are blind. The school will go into their Errors and Omissions policy to defend this action along with their liability policy. And because a suit is brought up against them and the insurance company pays. It will make their experience mod (or other factors) increase the premium they will pay for years to come.
Just like if you are involved in an auto accident and your insurance company pays money out... your premiums can increase and typically do.
---
I think administrative leave for a week or two is appropriate.
---
“That was not the goal, that was not the point of the lesson,” he said. “For me, it was about the First Amendment, teaching about the Bill of Rights, the beginning of what we call America.”
I wonder if he planned to teach the the 2nd Amendment in similar fashion. You know, bringing in a Barrett .50 cal.
---
And thx Nina for invalidating an active duty parent's opinion. Who else would know better about how these military kids feel than stripper four states away?
Mods, please delete and ban.
I agree that administrative leave would be better. But here is the thing... .he is a first year teacher. Most of them are on 1 year contracts (most schools I have dealt with) and he has no pull with school boards, parents, etc. So odds are he will be terminated.
I also like your take on what is his lesson plans for the other amendments.....LOL
He went about the wrong way of teaching it. There are many vids he could have showed in class with "flag burnings" or other demostrations where people stomped, stepped on, burned, spit on, etc.... the flag.
But again... poor delivery will be his downfall and cost him his job.
What if in a demonstration of free speech he started calling Obama a lazy, shiftless nigger? He would have been fired on the spot for Constitutionally protected speech, but rightly so. Even in a college class, professors need to be respectful and keep their politics to themselves (unless that's the point of the class at least).
It was a slip up that happens to teachers every year. They don't deliver their lesson in the correct manner which conflicts with the schools policy.
I don't care for one or the other. Stepping on(or burning for all the fucks I give) either one is not offensive to me. I wouldn't do it but fuck both flags.
Why does a flag mean more than black lives???
What I am getting at is that one time it was debated about the Confederate Flag here and other places. Where people said that the flag offended them. Then some of those same people are saying.... why be flag Worshipers.
The point I am making is you can't say one is offensive..... then in the same breathe say why does it matter about another flag. It is hypocrisy at its finest.
Just like someone commented on here, "Flag-worshippers need to understand that stepping on the flag IS a consititionally protected right".... Well isn't flying a certain flag a constitutional right?
Disclaimer..... I don't give two shits about the confederate flag. But just saying that if people deem one as bad and needs to be abolished. Yet if someone wants to desecrate one it is freedom of speech. I hope people see the Hypocrisy.
In other words I may disagree with you completely but I will fight till my death for you to have the right to disagree!
Second.... this isn't a "race" debate. Race was brought into the mix to prove a point. Like how can someone say that the military kids shouldn't feel "gut punched".... yet those same people will say that others don't know what if feels like to be a person of color. It is the same thing..... we all don't know how another person feels about anything. I mean I love the Mc Rib...... You don't know what I am feeling the day it comes back on the menu or how I feel the day it goes away... (adding some humor...but truth behind we don't know how others feel about anything... that is why they are called personal feelings.)
This teacher didn't say he was being political about any of the stuff going on in the USA.... he was just trying to demonstrate the first amendment.
Here is food for thought... What flag did the North carry into battle? Which flag did the south carry into battle? So now if you disrespect the flag that the army carried into battle to fight for the right of freedom for the black slaves.... are you disrespecting what they thought it represented??? Just like people think the confederate flag represents black oppression??? Just something to think about.
Ok. They should both be abolished. :)
But still, we're having an argument over a piece of cloth.
Before we can reach a compromise of any sort we need to decide what we agree on, the ultimate goal is to build on our shared strength, something that works, if you think my ideals are just a piece of cloth we wont ever reach a shared goal.
"But still, we're having an argument over a piece of cloth."
Chess, it means a lot more to a lot of people than a "piece of cloth." It's a piece of cloth people have died while defending it. Just like people have died defending their religious beliefs and their loved ones. It's more than cloth, it's a way of life, a meaning, a purpose, representing freedom to many, so significant people are willing to die for it.
A lot of other nations inhabitants would not be so passionate over their country's or territories flag.
Every time any topic comes up that's a debate you ALWAYS make it a race issue. Why do you do that every single fucking time?
Nina..... I used that analogy to show that you don't know how a military kid feels when a flag is getting disrespected. So it was very appropriate. Just like a person of non color doesn't know how it feels to be called or hear the N word.
But you saying that it doesn't apply or doesn't show my point..... YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG. Because you came out saying that it isn't a gut punch to a military kid. Again how do you know how it felt to that kid or any military kid.
But again you will bring up how people of color cant be racists and with that, I am sorry to say, you lose all credibility with me to have an open discussion about anything race related.
The flag is about our country.... Everyone. The military defends our country.... they put their life on the line for our country. The flag symbolizes our country.... So you know what.... If a military person wants to say they fight for that symbol.... Then I am all for what they say. You are correct it isn't "thiers"... it is "ours". But they put their life on the line for that symbol.... that symbol that represents the USA..... They wear it everyday on their uniform.... they salute it.... so they feel pride in it. Just like people feel pride when they put on a football jersy of their favorite team.... (or any sports team, company logo, etc)
But they shouldn't take it personally when someone takes a knee during the national anthem because the protest is not about the military. As I said, I'd be burning American flags as a protest if burning were illegal. This has NOTHING to do with the brave men and women sent out in expeditionary wars! My dad is an army veteran in fact. My protest would be about limiting political speech in what I would consider a violation of our Constitutional right to make politically unpopular speech.
The athletes protesting today are saying that they feel like second class citizens the way they are treated in many instances, and I agree. My original complaint was they should protest on their own time, but I've changed my mind. I think getting white people upset and starting conversations is probably going to lead to a better country in time. That being said, I do stand and remove my hat when the anthem is played because I don't feel as compelled to protest inequalities as some of my brothers.
This thread and debate was about the teacher stomping on the flag to show first amendment rights. Then Nina says the military kids shouldn't feel "gut punched".... well how does she now how they feel. Just like I stated a person of non color doesn't know how it feels when someone of color hears or is called the N word. Then Chestmaster called the flag a "piece of cloth".... well that is how he sees it but others don't.
Now the teacher was right in that demo of the 1st Ad. rights..... but he did it very poorly. It is like teaching sex ed and showing how a baby is made by showing a prono. Same message but wrong delivery. Plus like beaver showed.... he broke school conduct issues.
Like I said before.... this teacher will lose his job because of a poor delivery of a good message.
Most of us here have conceded that acting like a disrespectful jerk is a form of protected speech. The real problem is that being a disrespectful jerk is becoming commonplace.
Rockstar if you didn't want me to take it personally, why would you do it ? That is just being stupid. A little respect goes a long way.
The way i see it is i will not stoop down to your level and call you names, so you folks that think the flag is something to be used as a pulpit for their own personal agenda, are wrong, and no amount of moralizing or trying to invent false equivalencies will make your lack of manners and decency any less obvious.