Not a Sex Worker, Why Not?
san_jose_guy
money was invented for handing to women, but buying dances is a chump's game
I think about my ex-wife and how time with her turned into a nightmare. The main mark this has left on me is just age.
I think about past girlfriends. I think about some people I knew from high school who I have been able to find out some about, mostly long term married, with children, and very well-off.
I think about other's I've known and worked with.
Why weren't these women ever sex workers? Strip Clubs? Escorts? Massage Parlors? Why not? What is really different? Many of the women who do such things really love it. All the more so when they have most of the control over it, so they do what they want with who they want, and no more.
Is it just money, and family economic support? Is a lack of this what drives women into sex work?
Why isn't JS69's legendary 19yo Dream Stripper living with her parents and going to community college while she works in an ordinary job and goes out with her fiancée? This was the first thing I thought about way back when he first mentioned her over a year ago.
Most of the women I've listed above are about as far from being sex workers as you could get.
I know that it is not just money that is the issue.
Is it always sexual abuse with sex workers? Do they have to go highly sexual in order to reclaim their own lives, from the hands of their abusers? Is it like this for us Monger/PL's too?
Some of the smart and politically aware minority of the local white girl dancers have pretty much said this.
One thing about sex workers, their first response to relationship discord will be sexual infidelity. The ability to do this is extremely important to their sense of being. Whereas say with my ex-wife, she would never have done that. Her infidelities where in her idolatrous relationship with money, and with the fraud artists she became involved with.
The other women I've know were pretty much the same way. Sex / Money, pretty much two sides of the same coin, when it comes to women.
Most of those I've known were always already committed to middle-class values, 'till death.
Do women become hookers and men become mongers because for some reason they are barred from pursuing an ordinary life? This could be, even though they don't actually understand it.
I read about these well-off and long term married with children people I knew from high school. Some of them really are extreme, but they seem happy. Some of them are basically people I like, but others no. No I don't want to live like they do. But I do feel that there were reasons that my life never could have been like theirs have been.
Are their things which marginalize people early on, and then this plays out differently in men and women? I have always felt this.
SJG
O'Jays - Cry together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9yRGwRQ…
I think about past girlfriends. I think about some people I knew from high school who I have been able to find out some about, mostly long term married, with children, and very well-off.
I think about other's I've known and worked with.
Why weren't these women ever sex workers? Strip Clubs? Escorts? Massage Parlors? Why not? What is really different? Many of the women who do such things really love it. All the more so when they have most of the control over it, so they do what they want with who they want, and no more.
Is it just money, and family economic support? Is a lack of this what drives women into sex work?
Why isn't JS69's legendary 19yo Dream Stripper living with her parents and going to community college while she works in an ordinary job and goes out with her fiancée? This was the first thing I thought about way back when he first mentioned her over a year ago.
Most of the women I've listed above are about as far from being sex workers as you could get.
I know that it is not just money that is the issue.
Is it always sexual abuse with sex workers? Do they have to go highly sexual in order to reclaim their own lives, from the hands of their abusers? Is it like this for us Monger/PL's too?
Some of the smart and politically aware minority of the local white girl dancers have pretty much said this.
One thing about sex workers, their first response to relationship discord will be sexual infidelity. The ability to do this is extremely important to their sense of being. Whereas say with my ex-wife, she would never have done that. Her infidelities where in her idolatrous relationship with money, and with the fraud artists she became involved with.
The other women I've know were pretty much the same way. Sex / Money, pretty much two sides of the same coin, when it comes to women.
Most of those I've known were always already committed to middle-class values, 'till death.
Do women become hookers and men become mongers because for some reason they are barred from pursuing an ordinary life? This could be, even though they don't actually understand it.
I read about these well-off and long term married with children people I knew from high school. Some of them really are extreme, but they seem happy. Some of them are basically people I like, but others no. No I don't want to live like they do. But I do feel that there were reasons that my life never could have been like theirs have been.
Are their things which marginalize people early on, and then this plays out differently in men and women? I have always felt this.
SJG
O'Jays - Cry together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9yRGwRQ…
31 comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYQ0R6pS…
SJG
That guy is in the San Quentin, but his church and their movement continue. What I really wanted though did happen, police, prosecutors, judges, and newspaper journalists learned the public does care about such cases and does not believe the lies.
SJG
So then, her looks are secondary. She is not the one in the fitness spa wearing the t-shirt which says "Trophy Wife In Training".
But then things have changed, well sort of. Our society is more fluid in certain ways. But I am also convinced that for those at the bottom that it is actually much harsher.
So maybe it is not the parent's money. But maybe it is really just family abuses, or lack there of.
I mention now one girl from my high school. Let me call her C1.
C1 one not only rejected me, she did it with the most extreme prejudice possible. She saw me as not even being fit to tie her shoes, and literally not fit to talk to her.
But in the long decades since, especially out of school and in the work place, women have usually treated me very well, and presented themselves as available.
Well with C1, the family was already fairly well-off, but even more so they were probably a happy and harmonious family, and based on what I can find it sounds like they still are. Her own kids have all earned graduate degrees from the most prestigious universities on the face of the earth.
In high school she would have seen me as awkward and inept. But this was just the world I was living in. But her harsh reaction, seeing me as an unfit and severe threat?
She went out with a couple of guys, who to me seemed very much like me. But an adult said, "Girls that age, if they come from families that care anything about them, are not ready for serious relationships."
Okay. But why was I seen as a potential 'serious relationship', when these other guys were not? My own experience level was zero, so I should have been the least of the serious.
In retrospective, I do believe that the crossed wires with me did change her. It made her become more approachable, and also more responsible for her reactions, and maybe less judgmental. Maybe her crossed wires with me made her more ready for her next boyfriend, and then finally for her long term husband.
Maybe some of us, future hookers and future mongers, are just marginalized early on and so there is a kind of desperation which comes across and sets off alarm bells in people?
SJG
My ATF is now 7 weeks sober after 15 years of addiction. She has a decent apartment, a car, and is still a beautiful woman. As she was sucking my cock this afternoon, she was bemoaning the fact that she has no friends who are not sex workers and now that she's sober she doesn't get along with them. She hates living alone and this , in my opinion, makes her vulnerable to relapsing. She met up with a guy that she used to do drugs with and he's now 3 years sober, has a decent job, and a girl friend. She knows she could "steal" him from his GF, but wouldn't feel right about doing so.
You indirectly raise the nature/nurture argument. Our heritage places sex workers as bottom of the barrel immoral harlots. I look at them and think if im partaking of their offerings I'm no better than they. Buying or selling - what's the difference?
I didn't get involved with strippers or escorts until I was in my mid fifties and had had a heart attack which reminded me of my own mortality and implanted a "live for today " mindset.
As far as I can tell, on the immediate level strippers just spread joy. I usually stop by the SC on the way home from work if work has stressed me out. Strippers consistently help me feel normal so I can go enjoy a couple of hours with my wife and get a decent night’s sleep. If I had to stop going to the doctor or the SC with the goal being to be as physically healthy as possible I’d fire my doctor without hesitation.
The downstream effects of strippers work is more complicated. I used to have only good feelings because of them. Now I also feel guilty and a little bit sad. But I’m beginning to think those feelings are the inevitable effect of being a slave to capitalism. I’m by no means wealthy but I have more money than most people and yet I feel absolutely no freedom to do what I want with my career which is a bigger and bigger part of my life every day; everything is about managing cash flow; everything is about making sure I have the life I’m supposed to have as an upper middle class well educated tool. And that’s not the strippers fault. In fact the stripper might be the thing that stands between me and a nervous breakdown.
It’s been a while since I read it, but I don’t remember Holden Caufield as some sort of abused dysfunctional social reject. I remember him as someone who had real feelings. I don’t think catching children in a rye field would have much status in our society, but I think Holden wanted to be a catcher in the Rye because he wanted to help people be happy. And that’s what strippers do.
Maybe the people who are marginalized or are living on the margins are there more because they have better taste than the rest of us. They spit out the shit that we gobble up.
"Our heritage places sex workers as bottom of the barrel immoral harlots. I look at them and think if im partaking of their offerings I'm no better than they. Buying or selling - what's the difference?"
I thought it about it for a minute and it seems every stripper I have had a relationship with has had some sort of crisis in their life. Whether it's been financial, or abusive everyone of them have been pretty severe, and the majority were raised in horrible homelives while growing up. All of these girls are Gen Xers like myself. I tend to gravitate to these (now, women) instead of the younger millennials. I have had a little experience with millennials but I still haven't figured them out. One had some tragic things happen in her life, so I can see why she is where she is, but another came from what appears to be a somewhat normal working class family had no addictions etc. just excuses for her stupid mistakes.
As for me being in the same boat as them? Hmmm not really but I do admit my moral compass is way off when it comes to encounters like this. Regardless I do not feel like I am better than them and I am an equal to them when it comes to encounters.
"I look at them and think if I'm partaking of their offerings I'm no better than they. Buying or selling - what's the difference?"
I've always known this. I mean with my first FS GF I did for a while have trouble with the idea that she was on the Pill and was accustomed to fucking guys. But she said she didn't fuck more than one guy at a time, and this was true. But it still took me a while to get accustomed to the idea that she did fuck guys. This one had just graduated from college, where as most of the rest I'd known were from well off White suburban families and living in private dormitories. They and I usually did not get along. Yes, some of them did do some fucking, but not all. It was still mostly head trips.
But I've always known that it is not right to look down on sex workers, and all the more so when one has transitioned to partaking.
" I didn't get involved with strippers or escorts until I was in my mid fifties and had had a heart attack which reminded me of my own mortality and implanted a "live for today " mindset."
Yes, I'm really taken with this ^^^^^.
I hope things work out alright for your ATF. I mean that she stays sober. She doesn't need to steal any BF either. She can find her own way. She does not need a heroin addict, straight or sober, either.
I think the high rate of drug use among sex workers is tied to their low social status, being outcasts. Like with local RedBook AAMPs and Escorts, it always looked like the Asians spent their money and gambling where as the Blacks spent it on drugs.
These purely civilian girls I knew were not outcasts. They weren't usually rich, but they weren't poor either. They were though committed to perpetuating family life. Most of them had parents who had remained married and there was very little evidence of family unhappiness. At a minimum, these girls were absolutely committed to keeping up the façade.
I mean, having destroyed matrilineal society, what took its place is the Marriage-Prostitution system. More than anything it is just a pecking order.
I was just talking with a friend, at a super market, bemoaning the fact that in this area things are bifurcating, splitting into rich and poor. And of course when you see cities getting in bed with real estate developers and boosting, it is pitched at the rich.
We were talking about the use of Public Libraries. I noted that the kids of the rich are really kept under the whip! Always studying, $100 / hr private tutors, the whole works. Almost like I've read goes on in Japan and Korea.
SJG
Weather Report, I sing the body electric
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6thlPRA…
"If you work in the corporate world, you’re helping to destroy the planet and probably doing some other evil. "
I largely agree with this. And I can't even count how many strippers have told me things like, "I used to work in Corporate America", or that they still did during the day time. And this is why for myself, I've gone my own way and have my own affairs, and am planning on building things much bigger. When I was younger I succumbed to the pressure, and I got a job. So I became one of the extras, the spear carriers, of real life. Now I don't do that, I do my own stuff.
Yes firing the doctor! I can go for that. If you've ever had anything like a psychotherapist, they deserve much worse than just firing.
"But I’m beginning to think those feelings are the inevitable effect of being a slave to capitalism. I’m by no means wealthy but I have more money than most people and yet I feel absolutely no freedom to do what I want with my career which is a bigger and bigger part of my life every day; everything is about managing cash flow; everything is about making sure I have the life I’m supposed to have as an upper middle class well educated tool."
Yes, I can completely identify with this. Now of course strippers and civilian women will chase after you because of your large income corporate career, and they will tell you that they love you. But if you lost that career and income, they would tear you to shreds and dump you. So who is it that is really the most dangerous, the professional hooker who does what she does out in the open and who admits that she is herself an outcast, the civilian gold digger looking to do social climbing, or the middle class ingénue who feels that she is already what everyone should aspire to, and who will chew you up and spit you out if she sees that you don't go along with this?
Richard Feynman used to say that love was just bullshit, invented by women who were looking for husbands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Cau…
Interesting, I was never a teenage rebel. I completely rejected any and all claim to authority that my parents might have had when I was in elementary school. And what I found to be most disgusting about the then teenagers, were all the ways they were obviously just like my parents.
So I always have seen myself as the upholder of my own moral standards. I see teenage rebellion as just tribal conformity. So you have tribal conformity, which then evolves into middle class conformity. I oppose both.
"Maybe the people who are marginalized or are living on the margins are there more because they have better taste than the rest of us. They spit out the shit that we gobble up. "
Yes, I do go along with this. I don't see teenage rebels as rebels. I see them as spineless conformist. The challenge is in coming to see that we want something different, and in learning how to articulate that and to actualize it.
Actually I've tried to communicate to our local public health tobacco control people that their efforts do both good and harm. We set it up so that adolescents have to rebel, and so they use what devices, bullshit they are, to do this. Presenting a hygienic message only goes so far in opposing this, then it actually encourages it.
But these girls I've described above were 100% committed to middle class conformity. And myself, pursing a high wage corporate career, I was attracting them and encouraging them to try and harness me.
They go for sex, but only the kinds of sex that support middle class values. And then with my wife, ultimately she was not able to harness me. Beyond a point I saw that things were going the wrong direction and that I was contributing to my own enslavement and denigration.
She applied every type of pressure she knew of. I her mind, she was doing what a woman was supposed to do.
So yes, far too often the most marginalized end up in the psychiatrist's office. Or like Elliot Rodger of UC Santa Barbara, they crack and do something which no one will ever condone.
Or then like Ed Kemper, if it been just his mother, I think he could actually make for a likeable character, sawing the heads off of his sister's Barbie dolls. I don't have any sympathy for his mother. I say that what she got is what she deserved.
Imagine if someday it could be that women organize and deal with people like Ed Kemper's mother?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efePO3q9…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTyIa6_4…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q887vyH2…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTnEY8y-…
Our society also attacks children directly via learning disability labels like Austims, Asperger's, ADHD, and all sorts of other things.
The challenge is in learning to articulate what we want, and it is of better taste, and then to find others and work with them. Lots of people are marginalized, or have better taste, and want other. As I was telling one, the issue is not being a "have not" as it is being one who "wants other".
SJG
To Vince-- I have to stop reading this its way too much for me.
To Shailynn-- are you starting to lose it for real.
"I thought it about it for a minute and it seems every stripper I have had a relationship with has had some sort of crisis in their life. Whether it's been financial, or abusive everyone of them have been pretty severe, and the majority were raised in horrible homelives while growing up."
As I have seen, this is less likely with Blacks, Latinas, and Asians. It is more with Whites.
Non-whites go into stripping and sex work because they want to earn a living. Whites do it because they have been turned into shit heads by the abuses and family blacksheeping they have endured. This is because Whites are the dominant racial group and so Whites are supposed to have an advantage, and also because poor whites have no excuse and no underclass solidarity, so they are looked down on and so their families are more likely to be abusive.
But then you can further divide these Whites. A few are self aware and politically aware. These are no longer shit heads. But the rest are shit heads, and of course their lives revolve around stuff like alcohol, drugs, born again Christianity, and psychiatric medication.
Those that are self aware and politically aware could potentially be mobilized for revolution.
So does all of this also apply to us mongers?
SJG
Murder, no motive, 1984. They say 4000 per year. This is much much higher than I had imagined. I had always thought that the vast majority of homicides are of the more conventional type, and that serial killer murders were very small in number.
As I know it started in London with Jack the Ripper.
Murder, No Apparent Motive (1984) Rare Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE8oqnrV…
This has got to be the guy to read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Wils…
In Mexico now, with Nafta and the maquiladoras, we now seem to have one or more serial killers of women dumping bodies near Juarez.
https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publi…
http://www.npr.org/2013/12/29/258160192/…
http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Homicide-Pa…
http://www.amazon.com/Whoever-Fights-Mon…
Serial Killers - Profiling The Criminal Mind (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVYKdi8H…
There's a few paths to stripperdom for middle and working class white girls. Teen pregnancy coupled with ano absent baby daddy and parents who can't provide financial support is one. Another is pure economic ambition.
I've also noticed what can make a girl cross the line and leap into stripping is knowing a girl who strips. Especially cousin or sister. It does make sense that it would be easier to get into with a guide of sorts
SJG
But for those who do go for extras, FS, and OTC, I am convinced that there has to be something which has cut them out from ordinary middle class life. They may or may not understand this, but at some level they must know it.
So for example, this C1 who rejected me with such extreme prejudice in high school, she obviously saw me as a threat, as someone who himself was already an outsider.
This is why I have always said that it is never just economics alone, the need to pay bills or to stay housed which do it. There are other things which cast one out, and then economic problems are the result, but never the cause.
Unusually the ones who end up being the blacksheep are the ones who cannot live the denial systems. They cannot live these, because they are the one's made into the scapegoats.
And then this C1 and those like her, if they were really doing something good, then they wouldn't have any need to react so negatively to me. They were simply propagating a denial system.
And I always knew that the same was true of my ex-wife.
SJG
Ingress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingress_(v…
SF Bay Resists
http://sfbay.resists.org/
Ann & Nancy Wilson (Heart) - Stairway To Heaven
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf2O3OAQ…
I wanted someone who would live responsibly and be an actual life partner. This meant that she could not be someone who simply worshipped money and consumption. If she were, then there would always be problems.
Money and sex are always closely coupled in women. It's just like in the Book of Hosea. The prostitute is the one who goes for the money and the luxuries being offered to her. At least that is how they present it. The Good Wife is the one who refuses that and makes do with what her husband can provide and never complains. So my wife was supposed to be like the Hebrew Good Wife.
But actually there was more to it. I wanted her to pursue a professional career. This ended up being a show stopper issue.
When I had met her she was doing some junk jobbing and also was just sort of carefree and directionless. But soon she announced that she wanted to go to school. This ended up being extremely important. Without this our relationship never would have developed.
The years when she was in school were our best times. Eventually she stopped junk jobbing and just went to school full time.
But then this also turned into a negative, as those graduating from college are subjected to a very high level of conformist pressure. Her impressionability was always a problem in our marriage.
She did not support my professional career. She raged against it. She did not understand or accept the premises of it. And so she tried to subordinate it to her control.
I assumed that she would also want to pursue a professional career and that we would work together to support each other in advancing each of our careers.
She never signed on for this. Never went for it. So instead she returned glorified forms of junk jobbing.
The reasons why one does this, the motivations, are different from one who pursued a professional career.
So she was never a partner, never ever. Sexual infidelity was never any part of the problem with her. Money worshipping was, but more it was just her impressionability and her unwillingness to let go of what she thought were means of social control.
But still, why are some girls working in FS AMPs and in FS Strip Clubs, when others like my ex-wife and this C1 from high school would never even consider such a thing?
They would say that it morality and self-esteem. I think it is just power. Some are just in social positions where they feel they can wield more power from a non-sex worker role. Where as others have had that kind of power nullified, and so they turn to the sex worker role to get at least some sort of provisional power back.
SJG
R&B/Soul Acts on The Midnight Special Show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WNPCkD…
Need to understand it, and then act. Usually it pertains to a social standing issue which has not changed one iota.
In this case it gets to what it was about me that made her feel that she could cut me out from our high school class and stigmatize me, and why she felt this necessary, and what this says about what else was going on in my life.
The solution is in new victories, taking scalps and then displaying them, but never ever just getting over anything.
Sure, this girl is by now an old hag. She is not important anymore, but the social position she occupies today is extremely important. And the underlying issues are as relevant today as they ever were. She was not just exercising a reasonable right to decline. She was perpetuating a form of persecution, and there was also institutional complicity. One such person just croaked. Too bad I was not able to act sooner.
SJG
But beyond that no.
I mean if she wanted to go to school full time for the rest of her life, that would have been fine with me. I didn't see income coming in through her as important at all.
But the problem comes in what values she is going to support. She did not support the values which underlie professional career building, and so this is where trouble came in.
I tried and tried to get her to work with me to build a professional career, to end this source of trouble. She NEVER yielded. Refusing seems to have been a key tenant of her being able to hold on to moralistic power.
She was never more than a job holder, and she used emotional terrorism to try and turn me into the same. So I fought back.
SJG
I think what really defines it is just that it is not part of any other goals or objectives. Someone is just doing it in order to be able to pay their bills, and for no other reason.
A glorified junk job is a junk job dressed up to look like it is something else. So as I explained, after graduating from college my ex-wife resisted any assistance or partnership in building a professional career, but instead went with glorified junk jobs.
They were junk jobs because the only reason she was doing them was to pay bills, or really even more, just to make it look like she was doing something instead of nothing. Actually it would have been better if she did nothing because then she would not be creating any problems.
These junk jobs were glorified because there were people connected with them who were making lots of money, and so that made it look like she was involved with people who were the exemplars of how one should live and conduct themselves. These junk jobs had trimmings which made it look like there were something other than a junk job.
Good Questions!
SJG
Evanescence The Open Door Full Album
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EPahGD2…
In my experience this is not necessarily true. DS I and II come from middle class backgrounds, had relatively stable "normal" family lives, and I'm pretty sure there was no abuse or trauma that led them to strip. What led them to strip was being a beautiful young woman will bills to pay, parents who couldn't provide most of their support, and this was the only way they could make good money. Both dislike stripping, but can live with it cause they work at no extras clubs.
But of course one of the reasons I enjoy these two girls so much is that they are about as non-stripper like as a stripper can get in many ways. As for my other regulars I don't know enough about their lives to comment except I do know that free girl was sexually abused as a child. So I guess it's really hard to know these sorts of details unless you get to know a dancer really well.
SJG, I know lengthy multi topic posts are your thing. And sometimes you have interesting topics to discuss. But you raise so many issues in one post it's hard to read/follow. It really would be a great if you could try to limit a post to one topic. Just try it a couple of times.
Aren't they committed, as most women are, or as they are expected to be, to propagating the middle-class family, and not to being sex workers and helping guys cheat on their wives and taking in lots of money?
There has to be something else going on. Abusive family. If there is familial animosity, then that is evidence of abuse. Economic hard ship, our country just going down the drain from 1980 'till now.
Thanks for your post, but sometimes posting about something does open up many more facets. A topic like this, if people join in, will cover much territory.
SJG
Gothic Belly Dance Music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyC_igtS…
Plenty of strippers come from middle class backgrounds, especially with the cost of higher ed. And of course there's teen pregnancy, and middle class families can't afford to cover those costs.
All you need to see to establish this is he existence of animosity.
SJG
Etta James, Gladys Knight and Chaka Khan - Ain't Nobody Business (live BB King & Friends)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoBlmp9c…
But when a girl's social and civil standing are shattered, and it takes more than having no money to do this, then she can transition. There has to be something which happens to her which leaves her with zero social status to defend.
I've spoken before about me helping to put a Pentecostal Daughter Molester into San Quentin. Well the eldest daughter had been talking about running away from home and becoming a stripper.
I don't think she actually knew much about this. And the defense tried to use it to discredit her at trial. It didn't work.
I've know specifically two strippers who had run away from home when very young.
I've know young women who have talked about what seemed to be going to Tijuana when under age to do prostitution in their strip clubs.
I still say there has to be something which just shatters a girl's life for this to be possible.
SJG
Frances Fox Piven
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQBgRPtL…
SJG