Over here yesterday there was a programme on radio talking about the 'Rumble in the Jungle' fight between Ali and Frazier, it was really interesting and they were talking to various journalists/trainers etc that were at the match. George Foreman was interviewed and he talked about the rivalry between Frazier and Ali, he said Ali used to call Frazier an 'Uncle Tom' to insult him. Apparently at the time (and maybe it still is?) it was deeply offensive for a black man to be called this. Can anyone explain this insult to me?
Comments
last commentHarriet Beecher Stowe wrote a book called "Uncle Tom's Cabin"
The title character Uncle Tom was a slave who loved his Masters and didn't seem to mind his enslaved condition.
Thus the pejorative in the black community -- Uncle Tom aka House Nigga (slave who worked in the house vs field generally seen as having it easier).
An Ucle Tom is a black person who is ashamed of his blackness to the point of hatred, and wishes he was a white man and is a sycophant to white people even though they think less of home (especially at the times of civil right 60's)
An Uncle Tom has no pride or dignity in himself and served mostly as an adversary to promoting the Black Equality movement, first as slaves, then second class citizens
So ya insult for at the time, it is still but there are other words like Oreo cookie, sell out.
Modern day Uncle Tom would be Supreme Court Judge Clarence Thomas (or Clarence "Uncle" Thomas as he's known)
Tim Duncan - center for the spurs basketball team- he's like the whites black guy ever.
Log in to vote
I guess I've never heard that about Tim Duncan, but yeah, I can see that.
Russell Wilson, QB of the Seattle Seahawks is the guy I often hear being criticized for "not being black enough"
Log in to vote
GACA, that was a very thorough reply.
Tim Duncan was my neighbor when I lived in San Antonio. But his house was bigger than mine.
Log in to vote
"Tim Duncan was my neighbor when I lived in San Antonio. But his house was bigger than mine."
Just his house?
Log in to vote
Jim Brown has famously called out Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods for not using their celebrity to promote black social causes. (although I don't think he used the word 'Uncle Tom').
I just expect Peyton Manning to sell pizza and insurance. I don't hear anyone being critical of him because he isn't being a social activist.
Log in to vote
The term "Uncle Tom",in the day was merely a survival tactic.The closest board member that comes close to being an "Uncle Tom" would be Ranukam.
Log in to vote
^^^ excuse me, I think you misspelled a word, I think you meant to spell it as "bored." Lol
I too have never heard that about Tim Duncan. I always just thought he was grouchy and hated everyone no matter what their race was.
I think that sucks, that Tiger, Timmy Duncan, Russell Wilson are being called out. Yeah, all of them are pretty "white" for black guys but I don't understand why they are expected to do so much for the black community. Does anyone see how much time Russell spends in children's hospitals? How much Duncan has given back to St Croix? Or how much money Tiger has spent on strippers in clubs regardless of their race?
I don't see white people pressuring Eli Manning to donate more money to the GOP?
Log in to vote
To be fair, in the original novel Uncle Tom was more of a Christ like figure who sacrificed himself to save others. It was an important anti slavery book.
It was future usage of the character where he became a sycophant.
Log in to vote
I think it's ridiculous when people say someone isn't black enough because they don't act a certain way or talk a certain way. A person will be who they are based on their personality, how they are raised and their life experience. Bottom line, regardless of who you are as a person, many people will react to you based on your skin color and nothing else. All adult black people today have experienced racism in some way shape or form at some point in their lives based solely on their skin color and not always on how they act. If you have been pulled over or followed by police for DWB when you have broken no laws you know what I mean.
Log in to vote
Rh: I've been pulled over and followed by police when I have broken no laws, on the highway and in neighborhoods where I wasn't out of place at times I might add. So would that be DWW?
Log in to vote
good call rech I can see why Uncle Tom might be made into less than the heroic figure Harriet Beecher Stowe must have intended for him to be.
Log in to vote
I've been pulled over before simply because of my hair and a certain fraternity sticker I had on my car.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous when a successful black person gets called out for not being "black enough". For whatever reason you have people in the black community who think someone successful should share the wealth. There are too many examples where you see someone get bled dry and end up bankrupt because they end up with a whole community of "friends" expecting to get hand out after hand out. When someone tries to be smart with their finances and even live a normal life without allowing a huge entourage to bring them down you always hear the "not black enough" yells coming at them.
It's one of the dumbest damn things I've ever heard in my life. Guarantee the people screaming wouldn't freely give away their own money if they had it.
Log in to vote
Rech, that was a good link. It has been many years since I read the book, but I remember Uncle Tom being a better person than what "Uncle Tom" has come to mean.
Log in to vote
Some people have hurled the 'Uncle Tom' insult at Obama, because he has never used his race as a justification for any of his initiatives, much to the dismay of both the AA community and the GOP. I for one admire him for it.
Log in to vote
^^^neither have white presidents
Log in to vote
I think to call a black person an Uncle Tom is to say that they are seeking approval, like by accepting Christianity, or that they are even seeking pity.
The first use of it this way was in 1853, when someone spoke before the Massachusetts Legislature committee on the state militia. They felt that blacks had to be allowed to serve in the militia, otherwise they would always be second class citizens. And this was only 1 year after the novel had been published between two covers.
Then in 1865 Frederick Douglass used it in praising some black troops, contrasting them with the literary Uncle Tom
Then in the 1950's in the first issue of a French magazine James Baldwin totally destroyed anything which might have been left of the novel, in an essay entitled "Everyman's Protest Novel".
This idea of standing up for oneself, instead of seeking pity or approval was the basis of the work of Malcolm X.
youtube.com
For myself, even before these drugging for sex charges, I have always considered Bill Cosby to be an Uncle Tom.
Today the novel has become of interest to feminist scholars, because of the extremely strong female characters. But for it's writer, Uncle Tom was supposed to be an exemplar of Christian virtue, being tortured to death without betraying his comrades. No one else saw it that way, and this is the problem with Christianity. Beecher-Stowe taught at a Presbyterian Seminary.
Today I think the idea of an Uncle Tom is relevant in lots of other quarters, like poverty, supposed learning disabilities, and supposed psychiatric conditions. So you have government supporting and endorsing religious charities which are designed to make the poor pitiful and to keep them from standing up for themselves.
And then you have White Coats and Disability and Psychiatric Activist Groups who do nothing more than teach people that they have an innate defect. They teach people to live as Uncle Toms, and that with help, pity, and medication, they can be made passably acceptable to most people most of the time. They also serve to legitimate familial child abuse, as it is the parents who need to have their child stigmatized and they who want to be vindicated in their blacksheeping. It is another variant on Munchausen's By Proxy Syndrome, or Medial Child Abuse.
Great thread!
SJG
sites.google.com
Extremely Good, Yale's David Blight, Civil War and Reconstruction
youtube.com
Heart, Stairway to Heaven
youtube.com
Log in to vote
OSU - I'm not saying it can't happen to white people, (And maybe you were just giving me shit) but this happens to a disproportionate number of black people. I've had cops who were going in a complete different direction change where they were going to follow me because I was driving a nice vehicle and was in a decent neighborhood. I've been pulled over for nothing when they were looking for drug dealers. cops will follow just long enough to run your plates And as soon as it come back clean they turn around And go elsewhere. And all of my friends have had similar dealings. We are all college educated with good jobs, kids and no criminal records. But we still are targeted for the color of our skin. So you might have been followed once or twice but I guarantee you have not experienced what me and my friends have experienced.
Log in to vote
Rh, no I wasn't giving you shit. And yes I've been stopped followed more than once twice or even three or four times. I had a State Trooper turn around on an interstate highway, follow me for around 8 miles to the entrance to the Ohio Turnpike and follow me for another 10 miles on the Turnpike all the way up to the time I stopped at the toll booth to pay my toll. He then turned around and drove off in the direction we came from. I hadn't done anything but I was sweating for most of that drive. There have always been asshole cops on an ego or power trip who want to roust innocent people if just to make them sweat or looking for a reason to bust them. Nowadays most cities are hurting for revenue too so cops are looking for more reasons to write tickets so really, don't think that it's always racist pigs.
I have some thoughts on some of the other things you and others have said in this and other threads regarding racism and my thoughts on reverse racism, it's a two way street, but it would end up reading like a novel or something that kid from San Jose posts so until I can condense it and still get my points across i'll stay quiet.
Log in to vote
^^^ @OSU cute but racism is about institutions in power. Reverse prejudice is what you are most likely speaking about.
I get along with everyone, have been accused of being an "Tom" myself. Sometimes at work even the white guys have the nerve to call me "Carlton" (Fresh Prince of Bel Aire reference ) because I'm an assimilated minority.
That said, a lot of niggas are poor as shit. Mostly due to a cause of a historic and systematic system that ensured they could not achieve past a certain level. I know that civil rights was achieved some 50 years ago. But it was 400 years of keeping a nigga down. Now in 1/8th of that time niggas are supposed to have their shit completely together and get over it? SMH.
There is today a lot of black people who are doing very well, especially here in the Southeast. But culture doesn't change over night just like Rome wasn't built in a day. I do think that the USA is on a trajectory where race will become a complete non-issue. But we are still another 50 years away from this.
Also why is it hard for some people to understand that the oppressed class is naturally going to resent the oppressing class. In the same way the middle east resents America even though individually they may like some Americans.
I don't take it personal when some prejudice white guy let's his opinion about black people fly out of his mouth, I feel sorry that his limited experience has shaped his Zeitgeist.
The way I have experienced the world has been very different than a lot of poor black people. I acknowledge there is some racism out there but mostly I see classism as a bigger issue. Poor people have a harder time than anyone regardless of color.
Log in to vote
GACAclub: "Racism is about institutions in power".
Exactly. It frustrates me when people say they don't understand why 'black power' to get justice is different from 'white power' as an excuse just to be racist. I was born 100 years too early because while I'm not shy about expressing my opinions, I'm sad that there's a need for me to stand up for injustice. I would prefer a country that already has worked this out. I even get angry at people that inspire me to try and talk sense into them...I'd rather they inspire me to find new ideas that are useful.
Log in to vote
Uncle Tom...
Any black man OR woman that does tow the liberal line. IE:
Urgent: Who Should the GOP Nominate in 2016? Vote Here Now
Latest News Update
00:1105:57
Get Newsmax TV At Home »
And I am sure many others not listed or as well known, like many black people I personally know.
Log in to vote
I see SJG has an apostle.
Log in to vote
^^^ right...who's gonna read all that?
Log in to vote
Oh...Lary Elder. Ya, he's such a TOM he actually embarrasses Fox News.
Log in to vote
I think it's absurd to call Clarence Thomas an Uncle Tom. The left hates black people who think for themselves and come to conservative conclusions, such as Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain, and Ben Carson. Blacks certainly don't have to be leftists to be true to their race.
Log in to vote
Clarence Thomas should be admired and looked upon as a role model by the community. He did not come from a background of privledge. No one else in his family had gone to college, yet he graduated from Yale Law School. Instead of behind honored by the black community, he's villified. Just because he's black, it's assumed he should be a liberal. Isn't that the worst kind of racism?
Log in to vote
Clarence Thomas is not an embarrassment to the black race. He's an embarrassment to the human race.
Log in to vote
Colin Powell is a conservative who is not considered an Uncle Tom, and actually he us very admired by the community.
It isn't a liberal or conservative agenda, it is about being a proponent of black equality.
Give me a break on Clarence Thomas he's an Uncle Tom and yes an embarrassment to the human race period. How he got past the Congressional hearing to have him pass into the supreme Court was nothing less than astonishing. He's a disgusting pig.
Log in to vote
Dr_O, both of your lists are very interesting. And yes, Don King is quite a colorful guy.
SJG
Log in to vote
If only Colin Powell could finally tell us just what exactly he was doing at Mai Lai.
SJG
Log in to vote
Would one of you Clarence Thomas haters care to expand upon exactly why he qualifies as and Uncle Tom. The improperly interpreted pejorative version, rather than the hero that was intended, that is.
Log in to vote
Here's an article:
Why Black America Calls SCOTUS Justice Clarence Thomas “Uncle Tom”-ish
urbanintellectuals.com
Log in to vote
I'll never grasp this attitude.
One of my coworkers recently told me members of his own family referred to his children, who are probably younger than 12, as "house niggers". He obviously got mad about it and out came an "Uncle Tom" reference.
I'll never be convinced there's not a serious amount of jealousy at play in such terminology.
Log in to vote
GACAclub,
^^^ I stopped reading when they mentioned his opposition of racial discrimination, IE: affirmative action.
Log in to vote
Mr_O
Bless your dixie flag waving heart...at least you tried.
Jester214
Yes there is a lot of jealousy in the black community, especially among the poor. Dubois called it "Crabs in a bucket"
That said Clarence Thomas and Larry Elder are still guilty of being TOM'S. Period.
Log in to vote
I don't get this Uncle Tom stuff. What would you call Marion Berry?
Log in to vote
^^^@Mikeya umm...A Crack Head
Log in to vote
I know, but the fact he smoked crack, some people would call him "stereotypical". Is that the opposite of being called "Uncle Tom?"
Log in to vote
Marion Berry at his finest
"First, it was not a strip bar, it was an erotic club."
"If you take out the killings, Washington actually has a very very low crime rate."
"The brave men who died in Vietnam, more than 100% of which were black, were the ultimate sacrifice."
Log in to vote
@GACAclub, I read that entire article, and its content can be summed up in one sentence: "He's not doing what I think he should be doing, so I'll call him names in hopes that he will."
There's a lot of supposition in there that he does what he does because he's afraid of white or something, but I don't see where the author has actually read much of what Thomas himself has written on the subject. Where he has, he's discounted it as lies to cover up his real motivation, which is...well, that's not really covered, except in more unsupported supposition.
Log in to vote
I admire Thomas for getting ahead in life, but I also think he's a complete idiot. I do not admire his philosophies towards the social contract at all.
Log in to vote
rockstar666,
And I would imagine that he looses sleep over your lack of admiration, ah, never.
Log in to vote
I don't challenge Thomas on his ideology but I do question how much he really wants to be there and/or whether he really pays that much attention.
At one point he went some ridiculous stretch without a question or a word during sessions.
Log in to vote
@jester214
it is wiser to keep one’s mouth shut and have everyone assume one is an idiot rather than to open one’s mouth (like supreme court justice kagan) and prove them correct
Log in to vote
Mr_O: IHe doesn't know me personally...if he did he'd be better off for it and probably would change his entire world view.
Log in to vote
^^
Yes it sure worked on us.
Log in to vote
rockstar666,
My, my, my, but aren't we all full of ourselves today?
Log in to vote
Personally, I think Clarence Thomas is quite the opposite of an Uncle Tom. Instead of just toeing the line and doing what the liberal community believes a black person should be like, he actually thinks for himself.
Log in to vote
^^^ Actually Alito tells him what to think!
Log in to vote
@ Motorhead, he thinks for himself. That is exactly why the libs don't like him and constantly try to take him down, he doesn't toe the lib line.
Log in to vote
True. Alito, Thomas and Scalia are all what's worst about the conservative point of view. I find them mean spirited in their rulings and frequently contradict themselves in order to justify their opinions.
Log in to vote