tuscl

SEGREGATION . . .

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:42 PM
I visited Angels one fine afternoon and the club was busy. Plenty of GIANTS and SUPER HOT dancers. Almost immediately I start getting dances from a small hottie that I've known for sometime. Out of nowhere she asks "Why are you getting dances on this side of the room?" I say "Why do you care?" and "I've been getting dances from you over here since the speaker broke." She was upset about her perception that the club was segregated by race. Turns out ALL the white customers were on one side of the room and ALL the black customers were on the other side the room. (BTW, ALL the dancers are black and it is my understanding that some of the black dancers work to keep it that way.) Anyway, I thought it was humorous that she cared one way or the other (most of her customers are white). But, to her it was a serious matter. :) She was certain the white customers were segregating themselves. I told her it was more likely the noise pollution and that the DJ should be shot! :) Anyway, she couldn't believer it was just the noise issue. I pointed out that the club was much quieter on the "white side" because the speaker was dead and that when it was a white club there was either NO MUSIC or VERY quiet music. She says the music isn't that bad. I said "You're black and the music is that bad." I then pointed out that the GIANT dancers were on one side of the room (the "black side") and the SMALL dancers were on the other side of the room (the "white side"). She protests and says black men like SMALL women and she has black customers. I say "Before or after they snap up ALL the BIG women?" She got real quiet. :) Of course, some or perhaps even most or very few or etc. of black customers prefer SMALL dancers. I was just pointing out to her what I had observed. It certainly doesn't make it a fact at ALL strip clubs at ALL times. It may NOT even be a fact ALL the time at the strip clubs where I have observed that black customers seem to have a preference for GIANT dancers. (Perhaps they're merely afraid of SMALL dancers or perhaps they feel pity for GIANT dancers or whatever! :) ) Believe it or not there is actually a possibility that some customers prefer GIANT dancers! Will miracles ever cease???

21 comments

  • FONDL
    •
    20 years ago
    Kyle, what I enjoy about your comments is that, like me, you are obviously a contrarian. Whenever I hear several people express the same opinion I immediatly begin to lean toward the opposite point of view. That can make one very unpopular at cocktail parties but it's also a hell of a lot of fun.
  • Mikeybush
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    20 years ago
    This isn't exactly what this thread is about but it is on topic. One thing I always do when I go on a trip is check out this site to figure out if I'm going to hit strip joints . . .okay which strip joints I'm going to. I check out several things... proximity, ratings, contact versus none. Race is a factor I admit. I'm a white guy and all things being equal I'll go with a white club then mixed. I've been challenged on this attitude by some black dancers I know and even some white dancers and bartenders. My feeling is like speaks to like and since my taste in women is young white girls with natural boobs that is where I spend my money. And I have a right to spend my money where I see fit. Apparently, others feel the same way because why else would there an ethnicity category at TUSCL?
  • FONDL
    •
    20 years ago
    Kyle, I must admit, I enjoy most of your remarks and even agree with some of them (eg. you are absolutely right that our welfare system, which rewards out of wedlock births and penalizes families where a man is present in the home, has destroyed the black community - but it isn't politically correct to question such thinking.) I also like people who are independent thinkers like you obviously are. Most people are uncomfortable around views that differ from their own, but let's face it, that's the only way you can learn anything.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    Hi Fondl, It is very unusual for someone to enjoy my remarks. :) My schooling as a youngster was sporadic. I remember my math teacher very emotionally telling the dean that I was a moron and a cheater. The dean asked me what punishment I thought would be appropriate. I said I had no interest in seeing the teacher punished. Of course that sent the teacher off the deep end, and into *explaining* that the punishment was for me. :) Another time a science teacher told the class the only dummies use drugs. In unison the class said "What about Kyle?!" :) It was amusing to hear the teacher explain that I was actually a very hardworking student who only pretended to sleep thru most my of classes . . . After being on the receiving end of so many misconceptions and erroneous judgments I've learned to try and question even the most obvious "truths." The norm was for a goodly number of people to consider me insane. The you should be locked in prison garbage is more recent by about 1 1/2 decades and it is depressing in that it seems to mirror the American people's love of prisons. At Angels the dancer that I fell in love with wanted me to spend time with her buddies. She was caught off guard when I stated but your friends hate white people. She asked "How do you know that?" (Her friends were outwardly friendly.) I replied "How dumb do you think I am?" So she says "If comes down to a choice between you and them, I choose you. Their dislike for whites is not the real problem. (she looked down) They think you're insane." I smiled and said "They're thinking just like most whitey's." One of my attorneys said the problem is that I like to think and that is unusual. Anyway, I can see why some people would be bored or tired or angered by my posts. At some point if I continue to post I wouldn't be surprise if you had negative feelings. But, like you said it would be very boring if we all thought a like. :)
  • Clean and Sober
    •
    20 years ago
    Kyle I think you're full of shit.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    Hi Clean and Sober, That is a popular view. :) (You might also be happy to know that I was thrilled to see OJ acquitted. See I actually watched a good part of the trial; later I also read a few books on the subject.) Anyway, I was very surprised when SuperDude said that the managers agreed with my philosophy because it has been a very long time since I've met any people like that. Most love government control and it seems like ALL support anti-discrimination laws at least in regards to racial discrimination. Unfortunately, I think these managers probably also support anti-discrimination laws as to race, but their sense of egalitarianism to the particular circumstances prevails. The deal is that dancers are routinely discriminated against based on their weight, height, color, age, etc. Under these circumstances it is egalitarian to allow dancers the same freedom of choice as their (male) customers. In fact it might even be considered sexist to think only the usually male customer should have this freedom. Now, if a black female customer complained perhaps the managers would feel differently with the bugaboo of sexism removed from the equation.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    I think the reason racial discrimination is worse is because it was supported by government with the terror and violence of law. Eliminate the laws and I believe systemic racism is very difficult to support and will collapse on its own. I believe those laws directed at creating very wealthy blacks were successful to the extent they weren't circumvented. Looking at how wealth is created or stolen an absurd amount relies on government privileges whether it be copyrights, patents, contracts, loans, legal mandates, licenses, etc. Where I live, I think race relations are very much improved. Still I think racism -- especially the governments' prison system -- is responsible for the much lower dance prices at most black strip clubs compared to most white strip clubs. My sisters love to say that if I was black I'd have been rotting away in some government prison or dead. I think they're 100% correct. Another form of government racism is the way welfare laws especially undermine poor black families. Destroying families is an excellent way to keep dance prices low.
  • FONDL
    •
    20 years ago
    You're right on two counts: racial discrimination is much worse than most other kinds, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. And I don't think the problem can be solved by government, in fact I think governemtn policies of the last 40 years have made it worse, Solving the problem will take a change in attitudes. And that won't ever happen until we stop treating people as members of groups and treat everyone as an individual. Which is exactly what Martin Luther King urged. Unfortunately government policy has been the exact opposite of what her called for, which is why I think that his birthday is the saddest day of the year. As we so often do, we honor the man and ignore his message. I also agree with you that everyone's tastes in dancers are different. Personally I like the really young cute inexperienced girls the best, especially those from broken homes who are trying to support themselves while going to college. I don't mind spending a lot of money on girls like that, I feel like it's for a good cause. Unfortunately it's hard to find such girls in the kind of club that I like, which is the neighborhood bar-type place. So I often hang out in clubs that I don't especially care for because they have girls that I like. Guess nothing is perfect.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    Hi Fondl, According to my tastes, yes a black dancer has to meet much higher standards at predominately white clubs. And, I think looks are usually an advantage. But, some guys actually prefer FAT women. :) And, some guys actually prefer OLD women. :) And, almost all the guys I've known are damn desperate for honey regardless of the container. :) Of course, some guys aren't that interested in sex. One friend preferred cigarettes much more than sex. He serviced his DISGUSTINGLY UGLY wife (super nice person) once a week as part of deal to keep her happy. He'd prefer celibacy and she knew that before they married. Looks mean nothing to him--his sister was really special looking and I think it made a significant impact on him (as well as on her). I've definitely been discriminated against because I'm short both in business and romance. And, I discriminate based on how a woman looks. The history of racial discrimination is far more brutal than that which is why there are laws not only banning many forms of racial discrimination, but also regulating supposedly free speech. Bork the supposedly brilliant jurist believes that constitutional rights take away as much freedom as they grant. Preventing the government from controlling speech deprives people of their democratic rights to vote via their representatives on what is and is not lawful speech. It is sort of the argument that freedom is slavery. :)
  • FONDL
    •
    20 years ago
    A couple of thoughts here. First, I've often noticed that in predominately white clubs the few black dancers are always really good looking - the standards that a black girl has to meet to get a job are obviously much stricter than for white girls. Second, as I've said somewhere else, we're all discriminated against one way or another. For example, ask most women what they want in a guy and the first word will be "tall." How do you think that makes us short guys feel? Same is true in business, look in any board room and you'll find the average height well above average. And I'm sorry to disappoint you, Kyle, but looks are a big advantage in every field. But let's face it, discrimination is just another word for choice, the only alternative is random selection. We all discriminate and we're all discriminated against at times. One more thought: I think a lot of guys are intimidated by really good looking girls, and that's true in strip clubs as well as anywhere else. I think that's one reason why average looking girls often do pretty well in clubs. In fact a lot of guys are intimidated by all strippers, which is why so many guys act like total jerks in clubs, to cover up their insecurity.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    Thinking about dancers who refuse to provide dances due to the customer's race. At first I was assuming such dancers were racists (probably the correct assumption in the vast majority of cases). But, perhaps for some dancers it is just a business decision whether wise or not? It is easy for me to understand why black dancers would rather lose $$$, than dance for a white customer. If she hates my guts because of what she believes my skin color represents, then I would still want dances from her if she can do a good job. I sure as hell wouldn't want her forced to dance for me even if that *might* or *would* teach her that I'm a good customer and not a bad person. I can also see the social good in requiring all dancers to treat all customers equally. And, it seems like that is the prevailing law governing most business transactions . . . A side note: If dancers who refuse to provide dances due to the customer's race are not doing so in an attempt to maximize money making, then this seems to prove that not all dancer's are soley focused on the almighty $.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    Hi SuperDude, My understanding is that the preferred standard to use when evaluating dancers is 1) is she a good person and good company, 2) is she willing to do HS or FS or other high mileage, and 3) is she willing to be reasonable on price. Although this surprised me, it shouldn't have. How many men say NO to sex just because the woman is ugly? I would, but I think the norm is to get what's available while its available. :) I think there is some study purporting to show that men aren't looking for hotties, but rather looking for a woman who is their equal in looks . . . I'm curious how did managers handle your complaint about the white dancers?
  • SuperDude
    •
    20 years ago
    They agreed with your philosophy about freedom to discriminate based on race.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    Hi SuperDude, I'm very surprised. I haven't met any people like that in a long time except for a single family member who is more than a little crazy. :)
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    When I was young, it was repeated over and over again that the government cannot force people by legislation to love their neighbors i.e. blacks. (It was amusing to me even then because these were people who were proud to be slaves of the law. The thought of violating the law was completely condemned. The law was the end all be all. :) ) Anyway the legislation was not about forcing you to love your neighbor it was more like eliminating a negative or hostile environment which in turn might foster more positive relations or at least more equal relations.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    Hi SuperDude, I've met just a very tiny number of stunningly beautiful black dancers who wanted nothing to do with white customers. I tried a small bit of bribery on this one dancer who was EXACTLY what I was looking for. Even at higher rates she wasn't interested and thought that it was very wrong for me to try and use $$$ to change her mind. It is a sort of a long story, but years ago this hot white dancer at Angels told me that she wasn't going to dance for any whites especially me. Basically, she was just wild about black men. I don't necessarily see it as wrong that a dancer rejects customers based on skin color or whatever. And, I'm not a fan of forced integration, but perhaps the ends justify the means . . . I like the idea that people should be free to choose (Title -- Milton Friedman) and that includes choosing to discriminate based on race, religion, gender, national origin, etc. Not a very good American, am I? :)
  • SuperDude
    •
    20 years ago
    Judging by looks in a strip club is perfectly all right. I can't think of any other standard to use. What do you go there for. Too look at and be with attractive women. Of course looks matter. In other occupations looks are not relevant and judging by looks is wrong. Looks are the deciding factor in strip clubs and it's OK. If a white guy likes getting dances from white girls only, then that's his judgment on looks. If he likes all flavors, that's OK too. What is wrong is black dancers trying to guilt trip black customers into buying dances and trying to make white guys feel like racists if they don't buy dances from black girls. As a black customer I've had it with a few unattractive and untalented black dancers trying to make me feel ashamed because I didn't spend money on them. And I have complained to managers about white dancers who have walked away when I asked them if they were available for a dance. Yes, a lot of white dancers see a black customer and walk away even though I'm wearing a suit and carrying over $500.00 spending cash.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    I've had some black customers tell me judging dancers by their looks is WRONG and that it will hurt the rejected dancer's feelings and cause all sorts of problems. And, how did I get the idea to judge dancers by their looks etc. etc. etc.
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    I wonder if they would approve or disapprove of a numerical rating based on POTENTIAL. :)
  • Kyle1111
    •
    20 years ago
    I bought some dances from a ***PERFECT*** Cambodian dancer @ Angels and that caused some real outrage among some of the black dancers. (She refused to give her phone number; she thought she'd be working a long time @ Angels. :( ) The situation only calmed down when a favorite black dancer showed up and I was able to ask is "She black enough for you?" The problem is they do not see or at least claim not to see the difference between my favorite black dancer and themselves. The Cambodian dancer had beautiful light, almost white, skin leading them to the conclusion that I don't like black skin! More than a few times I've had to explain that skin color is not too important to me, which is usually met by incredulousness (sp?). The fact that I'm in a black club seems to carry no weight. More than a few friends, dancers, customers, and others have repeated the mantra that looks are irrelevant or worse the real garbage about a "trophy" woman.
  • SuperDude
    •
    20 years ago
    Racism and segregation are a fact of life in America and in strip clubs. This could be a long discussion.
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