Depression

Makayla, thanks for your very kind words. I think you and I could find a lot to talk about. I especially agree with your observation that most people in our society aren't comfortable sharing feelings. I discovered that when I was depressed - I wanted to talk about it but no one was interested, it made them uncomfortable. Until I met my friend. I also agree with you that part of the cure is doing things that you enjoy (for me that was exercise.) But for some poeple that's impossible, because a big part of depression involves wanting to shut down, to do noting, to turn away from life. That's what it's all about. So you need that special friend to get you moving. Anyway, in retrospect it was beneficial for me, it changed my views on nearly everything and that's helped me move forward into the next phase of my life. I think I was lucky.

Makayla, would you expand on your thoughts regarding my post above about "American Society" (i.e., agree, disagree, etc.). I would be interested in your views.

I agree that supplements can be a big help if taken in conjuction with an overall fitness program. I take several myself, mostly vitamins. But if you're taking them in place of a fitness program you're kidding yourself. Pills can't take the place of proper diet and regular exercise.

Hey, FONDL, I take SAME-e, which not only enhances mood, it supports healthy liver function and keeps the joints in good working order. You can get it at most supermarkets for about $15.00 for a two week supply. I also take DMAE, which is great for memory and mood. Available at most markets, and health food stores. Only costs about $6.00 a month. Try to avoid excess boozing, it will make you unhappy, but a few drinks a day keep the doctor away...:-)

Mouse, I really have no idea. Suffice it to say that it was enough to make a big difference in her life but had little impact on mine. In any event I agree with Kyle, I more than got my money's worth. I feel very good about it.

I think depression is pretty common among men (and probably women too) in our society, largely because of our screwed-up values. For example, our over-emphasis on money and material goods. One factor in particular that I think hits middle-aged men hard is the fact that many of us have been taught from day one to put everyone else's needs ahead of our own. So all our lives we sacrifice for our family, for our jobs, for our friends, etc. I think this often leads to depression. My one piece of advice to any of you in this boat is to put your health first, make it your number one priority in your life. Take the time to eat right, cut back on the booze, and start living in the gym. This may sound selfish but every other area of your life will benefit. You'll be doing those around you a favor. And your chances of ever getting depression will be far lower.

I think whatever Fondl gave her $$$ wise it was CHEAP IN THE EXTREME!!! :)

Exercise--weight lifting in my experience--can help alleviate depression. Like a drug there might be side effects . . . AGGRESSION and RAGE and SEXUAL PROWESS.

I liked the strength training compared to building a beautiful body. Based on latest tid bits I was doing it all wrong. I focused on doing 50 or 60 or 80 reps with relatively light weights. Fortunately or luckily this didn't build big muscles. Supposedly the way to build strength and avoid muscles (my ideal) you need to lift very heavy weights just a tiny number of reps. Doesn't sound enticing.

I thinking of getting back into weight lifting because I don't think aggression will be a problem now that I'm old. My main concern is to do it right so that I AVOID THE MUSCLES. For a big man muscles to a point are fine, but for someone of my short stature . . .

FONDL, how much money have you given her outside the strip club?

I also want to answer Mouse's question about money. Yes, when she was still dancing I sometimes gave her money for meeting me outside the club, but she never asked for it and was often reluctant to take it. And I've continued to help her quite a bit over the years, in fact I treat her pretty much the same as I did my own kids. For a long time she resisted my help because she didn't want to owe me or anyone else anything (which by the way I've found to be typical of other dancers.) And in fact I can only remember 2 or 3 times that she's ever asked me for help, she's a very proud person and values her independence. So yes I have given her money. And she has been equally generous with her time with me.

And before anyone raises the issue, no there has never been anything sexual between us. If there had been we'd have never gotten to the friendship we have now.

I think ours is a very unusual friendship but she's a very unusual person. She's very intelligent. She's very determined and hard working. She's very personable and very giving. And most of all she has a genuine love for people. The thing I find most amazing is that she's from just about the worst background that I could ever imagine, and that's been a huge education for me. (For example, I used to think I was better than people like her; now I realize that I'm just luckier.) I feel honored to call her my friend.

Feel free to ask any questions about what I've written. I enjoy telling this story but there aren't many people I can tell it to.

Thanks for all the kind words guys. Actually I haven't completely finished the story yet, so for those who are interested, read on.

First of all, I forgot an important element of the story. About the time my ATF (who I used to call Funny Girl) and I were first getting to know one another, and shortly before the other dancer (who called herself Cuddles) was about to quit, I was forced into early retirement. That turned out to be a big help in my fight with depression because I eventually ended up in another job which I enjoyed. I also did one other thing a little later on that helped me - I took up a new interest by buying a boat.

But to continue the story where I left off, Funny Girl got busted big time. (By then she was waitressing and hadn't been dancing for over a year.) She ended up having to quit her job and going to a 30-day rehab program and needing my help. That took our relationship to another level completely and made me feel useful again. It was also the best thing that ever happened to her, as she will be the first to tell you, because she emerged as a different person. She replaced her drug addiction with a health and fitness addiction and became my inspiration. We became workout partners and still are when we can.

She eventually moved to another part of the country, with my help, in order to get away from all the people who were trying to drag her back down. She's been there for almost 3 years now, but we still visit each other regularly and we talk on the phone almost every day. We've become almost like a father and daughter, except that we can discuss things that a father and daughter could never discuss, so in many ways we're closer than that. We're nearly 40 years apart in age but neither one of us ever thinks about that at all. I'd say she's the closest friend that I've ever had. She's doing very well in a new career which I helped her get into, and she will probably be getting married soon to a really good guy. I will definately be there, I might even walk her down hte aisle.

I'm now in the best physical shape of my life. I've regained some of the weight that I lost but mostly it's muscle. I drink a lot less than I did. I haven't had any signs of depression in 6 years. I'm the happiest and most contented that I've ever been in my life, and I'm at peace. And she is too. I don't think it's too big of an exaggeration to say that she saved my life. And maybe I helped save hers too.

"I met a pretty Funny Girl
dancing in tall shoes
She smiled a smile that said hello
and chased away my blues...

An angel on a pedastal
or the devil in disguise
I was never really sure
both lurk deep within her eyes"

-- from "Smile for Me" a poem I wrote about her over 7 years ago.

THE END

Hi Fondl,

Thanks for writing the success story. :) It sounds like professionally you were very successful and the young stripper helped you become successful outside of work.



Hi Dain,

Well I placed an order for the book. I like his work. At one time I was into weight lifting *for strength NOT appearance* (most of the literature is focused on muscle appearance) and that packed a wallop of brain chemicals for me. Now that I'm older I might start again.

Gentlemen, you may find John Gray's new book on the different dietary needs of Mars and Venus very helpful. I've read thousands of books, and this is one of the most helpful for the viccisitudes of life.

FONDL, that's a very touching story. Thank you for sharing. I bet your story is very common for many middle-aged men living in American society. It’s a story worth telling here.

What fascinates me most is that your loneliness combined with feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness – the cause of the DEPRESSION – was largely cured by meeting a younger women (who also needed you). You and she brought meaning back into each other’s life. She needed avuncular (or fatherly) mentoring, but unconsciously she may have wanted something “more.”

On the other hand, she awakened something very deep within you – something you had as a young man – but, which had faded as your children left home and your wife “moved” on emotionally and physically. That inner awakening, renewed your energy, buoyed your spirit, and cured you of the depression.

I believe the syndrome you describe develops in societies where polygamy, mistresses, and the like are taboo – for example, American society. In other societies it is socially acceptable to take a younger mistress, even father a second family. In America growing old is bad, not venerated, as it is in many societies. Yet, as a middle-aged successful male, you could easily afford and father a second wife and family – a family that would re-infuse you with feelings a value and continued self worth. In many ways you have more to offer a women now than ever in your life.

I believe there are many women – young women – who would gladly hook up with an older, mature, and secure man – that is, if it were socially sanctioned. Some women at a deep biological level would prefer it! But it’s not allowed in our society, neither for them or the middle-aged men. If you were to do this, you’d be subject to divorce, lost life savings, ostracism by your children, and emotional penury, all occurring after your life fell apart and you ended up abandoned and alone. Not worth the risk – RIGHT!

But, strip clubs offer an escape from the American cultural prison – all-be-it for now a fantasy dependent upon payment for services. (FONDLE, were you paying your friend while you were having dinner with her?) I hope our culture loosens-up and allows more social freedom. Strip clubs may be the beginnings of this positive evolution, and over the next 50 years, maybe we’ll see the taboo sugar-daddy relationships develop into socially and culturally viable institutions – to the betterment of both men and women. Good luck with your depression; I hope it never returns.

The lonliness was the biggest problem. So I started doing all kinds of things to have some sort of social life and to meet people. And one of those things was to start visiting strip clubs. And the first time I went into this little hole in the wall of a place I met a girl who I really liked. She was an experienced dancer but new at this place, so neither one of us knew anyone else there. So we began to hang out regularly. And I did everything that you're not supposed to do because I was vulnerable, stupid and didn't know any better. I became infatuated. I became the classic RIL.

She became quite popular and eventually had less and less time for me. And then she eventually left. Meanwhile I had gotten to know a lot of the other dancers there. And I started to spend time with this one really cute really young (19) girl. And we found out that we had an awful lot of common interests. For instance we discovered that we both suffered from depression. And that we were both trying to get in better shape. And we were both beginning to explore spiritual concepts. And that we enjoyed many of the same things. We sat and talked for hours, about all these things but also about our feelings. In fact it's probably the first time I've ever been able to talk about my feelings with anyone. And we started getting together for dinner. And found that we liked the same wines. I got her hooked on going to the gym. She got me hooked on reading self-help and spiritual books. And we became friends. And one day I discovered that I wasn't depressed anymore. And she got busted on drug charges.

OK, so there I am, you're typical overweight heavy drinking middle aged corporate burnout, suffering from depression, lonely as hell, feeling old and useless and sorry fo myself and thinking my life was just about over. I was at the lowest point of my life.

I knew I had to make some major changes or drop dead of a heart attack. So the first thing I did was to try to get in better physical condition. I was lucky here because I wasn't too out of shape, I'd gone to the gym in cold weather and did some running in warm weather for years and I always enjoyed exercise. So I began to do a lot more of it. I also cut down on drinking - I'd been in the habit of several before dinner martinis and wine with dinner, I gave up the martinis but kept the wine (hey a guy's gotta have some vices.) I also made dramatic changes to what I ate, cutting way back on fatty foods and sugar. I stopped eating fried foods, switched to skim milk, and cut way back on butter and margarine, switched from white bread to whole wheat and similar stuff. Not surprisingly I lost a lot of weight fast, partly because of the conscious changes and partly because I had lost my appetite as a result of the depression.

The next thing I did was to begin taking winter vacations in Florida to combat the winter blues and lack of sunlight. (And it was on that first trip that I encountered lap dancing for the very first time.) I also started reading self-help and spiritual books and eventually began meditating and praying every day. And I began to write poetry, mostly about my feelings.

And one of the most important changes was a change in attitude. All my life I'd tried to be the person who everyone else wanted me to be. Finally I decided to be myself. Which was like lifting a large weight off my shoulders. (All these changes, especially this last one, scared the hell out of my wife by the way. She didn't especially want me to change but I really had no choice.)

But in spite of all these improvements I remained depressed, largely because I was so lonely all the time. And that didn't end until I met my ATF. Which is a chapter in itself. (Actually some of the stuff mentioned above may not have happened until after I met my ATF, I'm really not sure, but anyway it's easier to tell it this way.)

Mouse, I am truly flattered. This is going to take several, perhaps many, posts because it's a very long story. But I'll at least get started.

I've always suffered from what I used to call my winter blues. Now of course it has a fancy name (SAD) but personally I still prefer the name winter blues because it sounds less serious. Anyway, about 10 years ago it was worse than usual and when spring arrived the blues stayed with me. I can vividly remember walking down the sidewalk in the middle of a warm sunny spring day and starting to cry for no reason whatsoever.

Except I knew the reasons all too well. For starters, I was stuck in a job that I hated. I'd started out in a large corproation doing things that I enjoyed, I moved up the ladder fairly quickly until I was a key advisor to the CEO. I was making good money and having fun. Then over a period of years we were taken over by a very large foreign company and our CEO was kicked upstairs. Suddenly I was moved to a job I knew little about and had no interest. I went through the motions but I knew my career was over. And I was still fairly young.

I know, the smart thing would have been to look for another job. But I had 3 kids in college and we loved living where we were. So I tried to hang on as long as I could. But I hated it.

Add to that the fact that I had spent the past 25 years actively involved with my kids. We were very close and I felt needed and valuable. And suddenly they were gone, off one their own.

Add to that the fact that because I was travelling so much my wife became pretty independent of me. She developed her own circle of friends and her own routine. We never fought or anything like that but again I no longer felt needed.

Add to that the fact that I'd gottne in the habit of drinking excessively and had gained a lot of weight over the years. Put it all together and I woke up one day feeling old and useless.

I'm sure that this is a pretty common story. And I'm sure a lot of guys just like this end up in bars all over the country. And I'm sure that some of those bars have naked ladies dancing. Anyway that's where I was about 10 years ago. But I think I was luckier than most.

I'll leave the next chapter for tomorrow.

FONDL, I would be interested in the details - you tell a story that must be central to why many men visit strip clubs. Thus, it is valuable. In contrast to real life, the women in strip clubs are eager to meet and talk to you - although it is obviously for the money. The latter fact makes the entire experience surreal and to some extent deminishes the value. Nonetheless, stripper-customer contact works - you're a testimonial. Why pay a psychiatrist or use psychotrophic drugs, if you can get better results paying a beautiful stripper. This is another "added value to society" that strip clubs offer. But, you must use them with discretion by staying clear of the scams. Moreover, if you get too attached, you'll scare the stripper and get dumped. Your depression might deepen, not improve, if you handle yourself poorly.

Reading this Board is valuable, and the free advice is worth getting - what a bargin! Sorting through the BS can be difficult, but the many opinions expedite the learning curve.

Hi Fondl,

When people speak of depression I immediately think of it as a biological deal. Of course, just negative events could make a person depressed. For me, a young dancer can switch me into high gear which helps lift the depression. Perhaps medication is the answer . . . I could be like Ricky Williams. :) Actually, the very little smoking I did was pleasurable, but it was hit or miss and I much rather spend my limited funds on women. Besides with contact with police officers it makes a *huge difference* to some officers if they believe you're doing drugs *regardless* of any other facts. In this case I'd rather just say NO.

Mouse, you are absolutely right. At that time in my life I was feeling very lonely. I was obviously having a mid-life crisis (even though I was about 10 years late, but then I've always been slow.) In fact I remember the exact moment that it hit me - one day shortly after Christmas I looked in the mirror and saw my father looking back at me. I was the typical story - stuck in a mid-level job that was boring, overweight and drinking too much, no close personal friends, kids grown and no longer needing me, wife spending most of her time with her friends. In short I felt unloved and un-needed. Anyway I made a ton of changes in my life and no longer feel that way at all. But there's no question that my ATF, now my best friend, was a major help.

By the way, if any of you are having similar problems I'd be glad to share my story in detail. But I'd rather not bore the rest of you with it.

FONDL, your comments about your depression are very fascinating. They suggest that your other relationships - that is, those outside the strip club - were insufficient to meet your emotional needs. Thus, feeling "empty and hopeless" without the strip club connections, depression developed and was intractable until your ATF relationships supervened and cured the problem - right?

I'm not being critical in any way. In fact, I admit to having similar feelings myself, although I have not experienced clinical depression. Nonetheless, I have felt a certain emptiness that was filled by going to strip clubs and developing relationships with the girls. A certain exciting anticipation or rejuvenation occurred when going into the strip club and "being" with the girls. Sometimes high energy relationships can be difficult to develop outside of strip clubs, and old established relationships can become stale.

Personally, I believe men are hard-wired to seek out exciting female relationships, especially sexual ones. Otherwise, how is the "seed" get transmitted.

Mouse, the really surprising thing is that, yes, we both benefitted enormously and it has lasted. I haven't had any depression whatever since I met her and that was 8 years ago. And she is completely off medications which she was on for years. And we still talk to each other almost every day, even though we're a thousand miles apart now. I can honestly say that she is the main reason that I no longer suffer from depression.

And Yoda, once again you are absolutely right. It is so much easier to talk to a stranger, especially when she's nude and the two of you are snuggling. I've told my ATF all kinds of things that I've never told anyone else and she's done the same with me. In fact I often feel that she's the only one in the world with whom I can completely be myself and know that I will be accepted and not judged. And I know she feels the same with me. If that's not a true friendship, I don't know what is. Maybe this should be posted under "societal benefits."

My brother is on Prozac for OCD, and my girlfriend is on it for Depression / Anxiety.

It's rather ironic that the main side effect of Prozac and similar medications is decreased sex drive and pleasure, yet many of us head to strip clubs when we need a little cheering up.

Reading this board is depressing. (Yes, you're right I'll stop now.)

Seeing a bunch of pretty naked girls usually cheers me up too. :) Throw in some beer and it's a party.

When I look around the clubs at the customers, most of the guys are depressed. That's a major reason that they are there. All but the least experienced dancers are depressed, too. Some of them rationalize, but sooner or later they will get honest with themselves.

My retired ATF calls me "the Doctor" our visits used to be "therapy sessions". Another fav calls me "GPS" because she says I help give her direction. Sometimes two strangers can share things with each other that they can't share with friends of family. This can work for both dancer and customer and I think it is definitely part of any fav/customer dynamic.

FONDL, as you know depression is very common in our society. Did your "mutual therapy" help either of you recover - that is, assumming you have recovered. If she benfited most, maybe she should pay you some free dances.

Who wants a joint