Denial

Kyle, I'm usually very good on grammar. But I'm well aware that I can't spell worth a shit. Nor am I very good at typing. Hey, one outa three ain't bad.

And, how do you plead on "definately"?

Yoda, I can't believe how much you and I think alike. I totally agree that each person has their own "truth" which works for them be may not make much sense to anyone else. I find it interesting that most people don't recognize that. When someone attacks me personally for viocing an opinion, as opposed to disagreeing with the opinion itself, I always interpret that as a sign that they agree with me but can't admit it to themselves. That's one of the things I mean when I say that people are in denial.

I also agree with you that most dancers would do something else if they could make enough money, alghouth I've met a few who would probably dance even if it only apid as much as flipping burgers. My current favorite says that she loves dancing on stage but doesn'l like the rest of the job - I think that's pretty common. She says that when she was in high school she coundn't wait til she turned 18 so she could start dancing. She's fairly shy until she's on stage, then she's a different person. And yes, I always start out treating dancers with respect. Whether I continue to do so depends on whether they treat me with respect in return.

By the way, guys, I notice that on several occasions I've typed "they're" when I meant "their." Sorry about that - I do know better, but sometimes my typing runs ahead of my thinking. Hope my old English teacher doesn't catch me, she'd skin me alive.

TGG: yeah the reg posters here just go there to watch, huh? So the strawman is your favourite rheoterical trick, eh? Neat.

I have to agree somewhat with FONDL. I have posted a few topics over there as well and some of the dancers seem cool but then there are some real "A" holes as well. Like he said they tend to be the more experienced dancers not necessarily older in age. I mean it is kind of funny they supposedly welcome the male customers question but if you say something that they think is wrong you get flammed for it.

Davids, I just believe in treating dancers with normal human respect. You, on the other hand said you "don't think they are quite human". Then you try and make us feel guilty because they may have had some abuse in their past, so we shouldn't enjoy watching their bodies. Bullshit!

FONDL: I understand what you are saying. I think where we may differ slightly is that, IMHO, the "truth" in many of the issues you raise may be different for different people. Most of the topics that get discussed on SW are related to how women who dance or customers who patronize them deal with the industry. The pink side especialy deals with some fairly personal issues that people are discssing openly. Most dancers would do something else if they could, that's a given that, though it may not always get mentioned, is at the base of a woman's thought process. What you and I see as fun they see as work and survival. I know you are well aware of these things and I also am quite sure that, like me, you treat the ladies that you patronize with respect and act as a gentleman. Younger or older dancer, that is all they really want-aside from our money of course!

Yoda, in case you haven't already noticed, I sometimes have a problem both here and on the pink site of being misunderstood. My writing tends to be fairly direct and as a result I come across as being much more abrasive than I really am. I also am a contrarian - if I read 5 or 6 opinions that all agree with each other I will almost always express the opposite point of view because I usually think that the truth (if there is such a thing) lies somewhere in between the extremes, and that all points of view on any issue need to be considered, especially those that aren't politically correct. In person I'm very agreeable. And believe it or not, I usually get along really well with most dancers. I've had a ton of them tell me that they wish all their customers were just like me, and I hear all the time that I'm they're favorite customer, which may or may not be true but who cares. I'm always very polite and I tip well when I like someone, and I'm not hard to please.

Which thread FONDL?

FONDL: I think your probably right about what we each go to clubs looking for but thats not a big deal. The world is full of different people all just trying to have a little fun. Your absolutely right about dancers being internaly conflicted-most of the women I know who dance or have danced talk to me freely about it. Dancing is not an easy job but dancers already know that and they have their own ways of dealing with the stress. I think it's fine to try and discuss the issues and agree or dissagree but trying to put yourself in a dancers head will only cause them to resent you. You can't really understand their lives or their problems fully-you are not a dancer.

Thanks Yoda. What I find especially interesting about the pink site is how much of a person's personality shows through in their posts. I could make a list of the girls who I would like to spend time with, and I could also make one of those I'd try to avoid. And you know what's interesting about that? The list of the ones who I'd enjoy would be mostly the young inexperienced girls, and those I'd avoid would include many of the more experienced ones. The pink site seems to have a lot of mature experienced dancers expressing attitudes that I dislike. And that's why I sometimes feel compelled to question their beliefs even though I know I'll get beat up. I also see many of these girls as having internally contradictory opinions, and that will always get a rise out of me. But then I value internal consistency and I realize that most people don't. Guess it's my engineering training. Anyway, you and I obviously go to clubs looking for entirely different kinds of experiences.

TopGun is the master of the strawman.

FONDL: I'll be honest with you because I respect your opinions even if I don't always agree with them. I think your showing sour grapes over here because you keep getting beaten up on SW. TUSCL and SC are two very different sites populated by very different kinds of posters. What we get here is a decidedly male perspective on strippers and strip clubs. What you get there is a decidedly female viewpoint. I find both interesting. I don't think anyone over there is in denial about anything. It's just a simple case of differing opinions. I give you credit for starting some of the threads you have started over there, even if I come down on the opposing side, I admire your perseverance!

Any stripper making 200k+ a year is doing serious extras: probably paid sex OTC, and or some serious scamming of her customers. Think we discusses this in a seperate thread. And again it's like 1-2% making that much doesn't prove anything about the VAST majority. I see you folks are up to your usual rheoterical tricks. Sad really.

I treat the ladies with respect and dignity. I play by their rules. I tip well. I have no problem with the fact they are beautiful women, showing off their beautiful bodies. Should they cover up in burkas to be respectable? People in all walks of life across this planet endure terrible things happening to them in life. Working in a strip club in not the best, but by far from the worst. Grow up, Davids.

I'm curious what exactly would you define low sense of worth as? Would it be working a job with very low pay when you know you could make a little bit more somewhere else? If a stripper makes $200,000 a year then she must have a really low sense of worth doesn't she? Just think, she could be working at burger king flipping burgers instead. I suppose some people are going to always throw in their own personal distaste for anything sexual and equate that with low self esteem. A girl rated a 10 making minimum wage flipping burgers at Burger King would have a higher self esteem than a stripper making $250,000 a year in some people's opinion.

I don't know what kind of strip clubs some guys go to but the ones I go to no sexual services are offered by the strippers. Some people must go to strip clubs alot different than the ones I go to. I'm not surprised someone went to a few bad clubs somewhere and suddenly believes that almost all strippers across this country are selling sexual services and that only one or two do not. Times have changed in my part of the country now though, I don't believe as a customer you get kicked out of a club for asking something sexual but the dancers will avoid you like a jerk in a corner.

Oh no, we should all be worried because someone says we as customers are exploiting other people. Well I got news for you, all of us are getting exploited every single day we work for a living. We all sale ourselves to try to get higher wages and will offer our services to try to get a certain level of monetary satisfaction in whatever career we choose. If that's exploitation then we are all getting exploited every day by our bosses or whomever we work for. I don't see anything wrong with it. It's just a fact of life. You learn to live and deal with it. However, I know some people like to always complain about this or that constantly.

Hi Fondl,

Doesn't seem like a very pleasant site--at least the threads you were involved in. Considering the contents of your posts it seems like a person would have to really work to get angry.

Yoda, I'm not sure why I posted this either. I guess I find it puzzling that there's so much angst expressed on the pink site. For example there's a current thread about whether or not stripping and lap dancing are "sex." C'mon, who cares what you call it, it is what it is. It just seems to me that many of the girls who post there aren't willing to admit to themselves what it is that they are doing and so they try to invent less derogatory names for it. Or they pretend that they're better than other dancers - they put down the girls who are willing to do a little more than they do, then complain at how society puts them down. If you read the posts it sounds like they're all a bunch of goody two-shoes. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of those girls do a whole lot more in the VIP room than they are willing to admit. There seems to be a political correctness on that site - if you disagree with the prevailing notions you will get slammed. As you've probably noted that's happened to me a lot there - the ladies don't seem to be interested in a customer's opinion if it disagrees with what they want to hear. I'm old school, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, as far as I'm concerned it is a duck. Euphamisms and political correctness are bullshit in my book.

I've never been on the blue site. What's it about? How do I get there? Are the people there interested in sharing divergent opinions or are they there just to slam each other?

Well my conclusion is that strippers for the most part have a very low sense of self worth. Customers, for the most part, are exploiting this low sense of self worth and/or the unfortunate circumstances these women find themselves in: taking advantage of their willingness to do acts they find demeaning in order to support children or drug habbits, etc.

Also consider what strippers boyfriends tend to be like when determining their sense of self worth.

Thus it seems fair that strippers should feel contemptuous of their customers given what their customers are doing: exploiting people in unfortunate circumstances in some case, paying money for things in life that ought to be free.

And yeah, alot of strippers do expect money for nothing, but they have grown used to it: alot of customers, apparently, will give it to them.

Stupid "industry".

(Oh, and before you give your stupid counter argument that you have met 500 strippers and 2 or 3 are not like that, I am only talking about the VAST majority here. Your rare exceptions do not redeem the "industry" overall.)

FONDL: I'm not sure why you are posting this here but...

I think what you see on the SW is a group of women who are professional dancers and have a good handle on their own thought processes. You and I are not dancers so it stands to reason that we may not share the same opinion that the ladies of SW do about thier occupation. Again, I don't really understand why you are posting this here. Wouldn't the blue side of SW make more sense?

He is referring to Stripperweb.com

What is the pink site? Sorry if this is a novice question.