"yes I think most customers have low self esteem and rightfully so most of the time. Where else can these guys get a beautiful woman to spend time with them ? NOWHERE that's where. They [sp] pay for dances and/or conversation ; depending on what they are interested in doing with a beautiful woman. What right do you have to try and stop them from enjoying the ONLY pleasure they have in life RL? If they don't pay for dances and/or conversation, women would NEVER EVER give them a second of time."
Davids: Your story is fascinating though not surprising. What does continue to surprise me is that you really have no idea what my "model" is, though you seem to think you do. The only real difference between you and I is that learned all of my SC lessons 15 or 20 years ago and got over the bitter taste before I started posting here. I know whats out there in the clubs and I simply avoid the bad stuff. I don't have much use for young strippers (in college or not) at this point. I prefer slightly older dancers. Some of them may be in school after getting out of a bad marriage or deciding to further their education but that's just coincidence and not an attraction for me.
The dancers I am friendly with are simply their to make as much money as possible until they get tired of the job.
Do they hustle guys? Of course they do, that's how you make money in a strip club. Don't kid yourself. A low pressure approach can be just as much of a hustle as a high pressure approach.
Davids, you can keep trying to put words in my mouth if you want but you won't find anything unrealistic in my posts, only in the way you choose to interpret them. That is of course, your business.
Mouse: Ok I will answer in greater detail than you (or anyone) probably ever wanted to know:
I had a similar experience. When I first started going to strip clubs I expected strippers to conform to Yoda's model: Just regular girls, probably mostly just college girls trying to make a little extra money to pay for tuition by having a little harmless fun.
I didn't make any real attempt to talk to them. Hell I had so little interest in talking to them that I didn't even try to negotiate price. But then something strange started to happen: they started talking to me. Acting like, even explicitly saying, that we were friends. Suggesting that I should get together with them OTC for various dating/friends activities. At first I didn't know what to do about this. I let the ambiguity linger in my mind without following up on it. I just continued my regular SC pattern.
Then one day the turning point arrived: I decided to call up a phone number a stripper had given me (I did not ask for it: she volunteered it) to follow up on her suggestion of getting together to "hang out with me outside of work sometime". Her response "Ok, I'm working tonight. Why don't you come in and see me and get some dances and then we will decide what to do after work?" My response "Let me think about that, I'll call you back in an hour or so". Hang up the phone and I am totally pissed off! What the hell does hanging out with her have to do with me getting dances from her? Phone her back. Voicemail: "That's not exactly what I had in mind. I won't come in to see you and am disappointed that you are only interested in me for money even though you were indicating otherwise". No return call.
(Note here that I did not get any dances from her between the time she gave me her number or after I made that call.)
Ok, just one bad apple, maybe, I thought. Now I was determined to get into the stripper's mind. When I went to the clubs I started talking to them more. And guess what? That meant them lying to me more and trying to scam me more. Some even literally stole money from me.
I am sure that there was something about my demeanour or body language or age or outlook (happy, trusting) that made them think I was an easy target.
More false suggestions (them initiating) "of getting together with me outside of work sometime". At this point I knew what to do, though: call them down on it the instant they said it. It was kind of fun to watch them squirm. But still I could not think of them as good people with all of their dishonesty. They were trying their scams so often I could only imagine that someone must be falling for it. (A recent conversation with one of these girls revealed that approximately 2/3 of her customers fall for some kind of scam she tries to pull.)
At this point I started reading and posting on discussion boards to figure out what the hell was going on. I ran into an army of strippers and ass kissers, Yoda being the apparent field marshall, telling me that this is all in my mind or if I do encounter dishonesty that I was the one responsible for it. I decided it was time for a break.
Then I returned, but my view has changed: I will just take it for granted that strippers are dishonest, but I am going to learn to beat them at their own game. I started talking to strippers even more than ever now: some nights not even getting dances. Guess what? They think I have a clear view on things. I started talking to other club employees too: they agree with my views too. Finally I sense they are starting to respect me because "I am getting it".
Final stage: I decide to formally study the subject of "seduction" to why they are doing what they do. I knew what they were doing (despite all of Yoda's denials) but needed to understand the "why"s. (This was actually triggered by one of RLs posts: thanks, buddy: you made a big contribution to my life!).
I read DeAngelo, and other resources on the net. I wondered if was going to work on strippers too. I started my experimental phase: I am going to SC but now I am not going to spend money. Will strippers and other employees really talk to me for free? Yes. Have I gotten to the stage where I've been able to date or have ONSs with any yet? No, but perhaps a couple of near misses.
What's my goal now? To continue learning about the culture. To post here to counter Yoda and others disinformation and misunderstandings.
The main advantage strippers have over their customers is their greater community (including their army of ass kissers) and hence their access to information.
Will customers ever be on a level playing field? Probably not because they won't think they need to get educated before they go.
Can we try and help out the few here who are at least aware enough to try and educate themselves? Yes.
Can we, perhaps, someday, even dream of bigger projects than that? We shall have to see.
davids, it seems you're on a mission somewhat akin to RL. What happened in a strip club to bring out so much energy and emotion on your part?
I ask, because you remind me of myself, when I first started posting here. I was angry, but now I've cooled off - the emotions have dissipated. When I first started going to strip clubs, like many, I was naïve and entered a steep learning curve. I stupidly took people at face value and trusted the strippers, BUT I soon learned of the “strip-club fantasy” – a euphemism for legal scam. Although the strippers never succeeded in getting excess money and never affected my life away from the strip club, I found myself in the gun sights of some really smooth scamming and compulsively lying strippers (one in particular was a complete nefarious bitch), who wanted to take my money with no thought given as to how it might hurt me. Nonetheless, I felt like a victim of a crime – I was angry, like someone almost taken by a sleazy used-car salesman. Now I’ve cooled off. Now, wiser and in more control, I use strip clubs for entertainment and stay aloof from the strippers. I don’t have ATFs, and I mix it up with different clubs, I’m not really considered a regular at any one place. I find the club atmosphere is relaxing, and I make the R-rated ladies work for their pay. I go for high mileage, not relationships.
I’m wondering that you may have had a similar experience – maybe not. In any event, it’s clear something in strip clubs got to you and piqued your emotions. What happened? Please share; I might be able to put things in perspective.
That is one mean stripper who I predict has very low self-esteem herself. Probably a textbook case of PROJECTION.
I haven't paid as much attention to customers the clubs as I have to strippers so I can't give a good statistical estimate, but I think perhaps 33% and 66% could get attention from beautiful women if they simply stopped paying and told themselves they were worthy of it. The rest might have to do some work on self improvement: lose some weight, shower more often, dress better, project better body language, smile more, develop a sense of humor and what not.
It's hard to imagine anyone who could be a truly hopeless case who could never get attention from beautiful women for free if they were willing to put in the work. Heck I even had strippers tell me about customers who they met with physically handicaps, like Tourette's, or random spasms who they found "cute".
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The dancers I am friendly with are simply their to make as much money as possible until they get tired of the job.
Do they hustle guys? Of course they do, that's how you make money in a strip club. Don't kid yourself. A low pressure approach can be just as much of a hustle as a high pressure approach.
Davids, you can keep trying to put words in my mouth if you want but you won't find anything unrealistic in my posts, only in the way you choose to interpret them. That is of course, your business.
I had a similar experience. When I first started going to strip clubs I expected strippers to conform to Yoda's model: Just regular girls, probably mostly just college girls trying to make a little extra money to pay for tuition by having a little harmless fun.
I didn't make any real attempt to talk to them. Hell I had so little interest in talking to them that I didn't even try to negotiate price. But then something strange started to happen: they started talking to me. Acting like, even explicitly saying, that we were friends. Suggesting that I should get together with them OTC for various dating/friends activities. At first I didn't know what to do about this. I let the ambiguity linger in my mind without following up on it. I just continued my regular SC pattern.
Then one day the turning point arrived: I decided to call up a phone number a stripper had given me (I did not ask for it: she volunteered it) to follow up on her suggestion of getting together to "hang out with me outside of work sometime". Her response "Ok, I'm working tonight. Why don't you come in and see me and get some dances and then we will decide what to do after work?" My response "Let me think about that, I'll call you back in an hour or so". Hang up the phone and I am totally pissed off! What the hell does hanging out with her have to do with me getting dances from her? Phone her back. Voicemail: "That's not exactly what I had in mind. I won't come in to see you and am disappointed that you are only interested in me for money even though you were indicating otherwise". No return call.
(Note here that I did not get any dances from her between the time she gave me her number or after I made that call.)
Ok, just one bad apple, maybe, I thought. Now I was determined to get into the stripper's mind. When I went to the clubs I started talking to them more. And guess what? That meant them lying to me more and trying to scam me more. Some even literally stole money from me.
I am sure that there was something about my demeanour or body language or age or outlook (happy, trusting) that made them think I was an easy target.
More false suggestions (them initiating) "of getting together with me outside of work sometime". At this point I knew what to do, though: call them down on it the instant they said it. It was kind of fun to watch them squirm. But still I could not think of them as good people with all of their dishonesty. They were trying their scams so often I could only imagine that someone must be falling for it. (A recent conversation with one of these girls revealed that approximately 2/3 of her customers fall for some kind of scam she tries to pull.)
At this point I started reading and posting on discussion boards to figure out what the hell was going on. I ran into an army of strippers and ass kissers, Yoda being the apparent field marshall, telling me that this is all in my mind or if I do encounter dishonesty that I was the one responsible for it. I decided it was time for a break.
Then I returned, but my view has changed: I will just take it for granted that strippers are dishonest, but I am going to learn to beat them at their own game. I started talking to strippers even more than ever now: some nights not even getting dances. Guess what? They think I have a clear view on things. I started talking to other club employees too: they agree with my views too. Finally I sense they are starting to respect me because "I am getting it".
Final stage: I decide to formally study the subject of "seduction" to why they are doing what they do. I knew what they were doing (despite all of Yoda's denials) but needed to understand the "why"s. (This was actually triggered by one of RLs posts: thanks, buddy: you made a big contribution to my life!).
I read DeAngelo, and other resources on the net. I wondered if was going to work on strippers too. I started my experimental phase: I am going to SC but now I am not going to spend money. Will strippers and other employees really talk to me for free? Yes. Have I gotten to the stage where I've been able to date or have ONSs with any yet? No, but perhaps a couple of near misses.
What's my goal now? To continue learning about the culture. To post here to counter Yoda and others disinformation and misunderstandings.
The main advantage strippers have over their customers is their greater community (including their army of ass kissers) and hence their access to information.
Will customers ever be on a level playing field? Probably not because they won't think they need to get educated before they go.
Can we try and help out the few here who are at least aware enough to try and educate themselves? Yes.
Can we, perhaps, someday, even dream of bigger projects than that? We shall have to see.
I ask, because you remind me of myself, when I first started posting here. I was angry, but now I've cooled off - the emotions have dissipated. When I first started going to strip clubs, like many, I was naïve and entered a steep learning curve. I stupidly took people at face value and trusted the strippers, BUT I soon learned of the “strip-club fantasy” – a euphemism for legal scam. Although the strippers never succeeded in getting excess money and never affected my life away from the strip club, I found myself in the gun sights of some really smooth scamming and compulsively lying strippers (one in particular was a complete nefarious bitch), who wanted to take my money with no thought given as to how it might hurt me. Nonetheless, I felt like a victim of a crime – I was angry, like someone almost taken by a sleazy used-car salesman. Now I’ve cooled off. Now, wiser and in more control, I use strip clubs for entertainment and stay aloof from the strippers. I don’t have ATFs, and I mix it up with different clubs, I’m not really considered a regular at any one place. I find the club atmosphere is relaxing, and I make the R-rated ladies work for their pay. I go for high mileage, not relationships.
I’m wondering that you may have had a similar experience – maybe not. In any event, it’s clear something in strip clubs got to you and piqued your emotions. What happened? Please share; I might be able to put things in perspective.
I haven't paid as much attention to customers the clubs as I have to strippers so I can't give a good statistical estimate, but I think perhaps 33% and 66% could get attention from beautiful women if they simply stopped paying and told themselves they were worthy of it. The rest might have to do some work on self improvement: lose some weight, shower more often, dress better, project better body language, smile more, develop a sense of humor and what not.
It's hard to imagine anyone who could be a truly hopeless case who could never get attention from beautiful women for free if they were willing to put in the work. Heck I even had strippers tell me about customers who they met with physically handicaps, like Tourette's, or random spasms who they found "cute".