Serious topic: at what point do you stop?
zipman68
the speed force!
Rick's post about his seriously fucked up favorite made me wonder about the point at which one should decide to stop contributing to to problems of a stripper.
We all know the reality -- nice, well-adjusted girls stripping to pay their way through university are few and far between. I've actually met a few, though they typically have a bit of an edge. But certainly nothing where I felt that I was contributing to a girls downward spiral.
Then there is the "typical stripper range". For example, I've visited one particular girl about 4 or 5 times in the past few months and I place her near the top of that range. Obviously, I don't know her completely but she seems basically OK. Nice enough girl, not a Rhodes scholar, didn't complete a degree but did start one at a good state university, no obvious life problems. In our last conversation she asked if i ever drank (i was abstaining since i was driving -- sometimes I'll drive after 1 drink but never more and I typically don't drink at all when I drive). She then as much as admitted to needing to drink because she had to deal with so many drunk guys, but added that she always got rides to and from the club. Don't know if that was true, but even if she was lying she had the sense to recognize that I wouldn't find drunk driving cool.
I don't feel at all bad about taking a girl like that to the VIP for some fun. No definite feeling that I'm contributing to a fucked up life. Stripping probably isn't the best life choice, but it also isn't the worst. She did state that she does not do OTC, further stating that "you never know who will turn out to be psycho and at the club there are bouncers". So points for having sense (even if it bums the OTC mongers among us).
Big point is that while one never knows what is really going on for anybody else I don't feel bad about paying for a little time with somebody who appears able to take care of herself...
Even for girls at the lower end of the normal range...well, I usually don't know details of their life. Realistically, I would rather keep it that way in a number of cases.
Then there is Rick's girl. I won't duplicate Rick's description but - oh my God did she seem fucked up. 4or 5 std deviations outside the normal range. Nothing you can really do to help, but at what point are you contributing to a really fucked life. I feel I would just want to extricate myself from such a situation. I find it kind of funny when Juice jokes about crazy stuff...but I don't want the over the top crazy in my life. I'm a boring middle aged dude and I like it that way.
So...BIG QUESTION...where do my fellow pervs draw the line? Did Ricky-boy pole vault over it?
We all know the reality -- nice, well-adjusted girls stripping to pay their way through university are few and far between. I've actually met a few, though they typically have a bit of an edge. But certainly nothing where I felt that I was contributing to a girls downward spiral.
Then there is the "typical stripper range". For example, I've visited one particular girl about 4 or 5 times in the past few months and I place her near the top of that range. Obviously, I don't know her completely but she seems basically OK. Nice enough girl, not a Rhodes scholar, didn't complete a degree but did start one at a good state university, no obvious life problems. In our last conversation she asked if i ever drank (i was abstaining since i was driving -- sometimes I'll drive after 1 drink but never more and I typically don't drink at all when I drive). She then as much as admitted to needing to drink because she had to deal with so many drunk guys, but added that she always got rides to and from the club. Don't know if that was true, but even if she was lying she had the sense to recognize that I wouldn't find drunk driving cool.
I don't feel at all bad about taking a girl like that to the VIP for some fun. No definite feeling that I'm contributing to a fucked up life. Stripping probably isn't the best life choice, but it also isn't the worst. She did state that she does not do OTC, further stating that "you never know who will turn out to be psycho and at the club there are bouncers". So points for having sense (even if it bums the OTC mongers among us).
Big point is that while one never knows what is really going on for anybody else I don't feel bad about paying for a little time with somebody who appears able to take care of herself...
Even for girls at the lower end of the normal range...well, I usually don't know details of their life. Realistically, I would rather keep it that way in a number of cases.
Then there is Rick's girl. I won't duplicate Rick's description but - oh my God did she seem fucked up. 4or 5 std deviations outside the normal range. Nothing you can really do to help, but at what point are you contributing to a really fucked life. I feel I would just want to extricate myself from such a situation. I find it kind of funny when Juice jokes about crazy stuff...but I don't want the over the top crazy in my life. I'm a boring middle aged dude and I like it that way.
So...BIG QUESTION...where do my fellow pervs draw the line? Did Ricky-boy pole vault over it?
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39 comments
No sense in getting dramatic about it - they certainly don't. In fact, white knights are among their favorite sources of income. ;)
What I said is that single motherhood is one of the issues for many of them. As you know, a solid % of dancers are single moms who do the job because they need the money and the scheduling flexibility. Heck, I have nothing at all against single moms. If not for them, there would likely be far fewer accommodating OTC dancers for us all to enjoy. ;)
But there is also a range. Obviously we don't know everything about who the posters on this board are, but Duo seems together. I don't know all of the life issues with the girl I described, but she seems to be fine. Not my business to probe deeply, but there is no evidence I'm contributing to a human train wreck.
But you seem to be portraying a model where pursuing girls whose life is right in the middle of a train wreck is the way to go. My point is that you know some seriously fucked up shit is going on and you're writing about it like "cool, now my OTC will be cheaper". That is fucked up dude.
Is that your system?
By going to strip clubs and especially by paying for extras/sex/whatever, we're almost certainly funding addictions, abusive relationships and other fucked up lifestyles. How many people on here brag about how little they pay for sex in Detroit clubs? You can delude yourself and/or ignore it, or choose to simply not care.
While I don't really find what Rick posted to be admirable I don't really think it's that much more fucked up than any of the posters on here who actively seek extras and OTC or visit massage parlors and prostitutes.
But if that is real world scenario, even this hardcore mileage hound OTC monger has to take step back and shake my head in sadness. I'm as far from a white knight as one can get on the spectrum, but I never visit AMP's because most of the women in there are essentially indentured servants until they pay off their debts. Even though it's easy pickings, I don't go after the "desperate to make rent at the end of the month" strippers, either. I've never offered dancers drugs (nor, frankly, would I know where to get them anyway) for sex, and if they look like tweakers, I wouldn't be talking to them anyway, let alone sexing them up at a Red Roof Inn.
In my mind at least, the dancers are making choices of their own volition when they agree to have sex with me outside the club. I'm a safe, easy, and hopefully fun alternative for them to make additional cash, not a last ditch effort to stay afloat above water.
CP
If a single mom who is not drugged out or alcoholic chooses to strip, more power to her.
Again there is a range of how bad off people are (and I stress that many non-strippers -- including some superficially successful folks -- are fucked up). It is one thing to view clubbing as a business relationship where you exchange money for the service of nude dancing, lappers, or even more. That is exactly what it is and I don't have any illusions about it. Hell, I've probably contributed to some bad life decisions on the part of girls I've paid for dances. But I've never gone LOOKING for the worst off.
It is a WHOLE 'nother thing to play like you're a lion trying to pick off the sickest wildebeest in the herd. That is what you seem to be BRAGGING about. Uncool!
Sounds like rickyboy is a sick sick men man
Perhaps I am just more desensitized to this stuff than most, but in the 80+ nights I spend in the 40+ clubs I visit each year, I hear enough sob tales and down-on-your-luck stories to fill a volume. And for every one that I hear, I have no doubt that there are a shitload more of those stories that I could hear if I had the time to speak with every dancer and they were all as talkative.
Net-net, a lot of these girls have problems, whether you know it or not. Guys who cannot handle that concept need to stay home with their milk and cookies and watch the Hallmark channel.
These girls don't want our sympathy, they want our money. I never forced anyone to do what she was not willing to do. We are all grown adults and make our own choices, regardless of how bad our past issues were.
"Not only are many of them single moms..."
Some women that get into stripping do have psychological/emotional problems and that they don't have any other options. Some women feel as if it's the best option at the time and some women just plain enjoy it. Just like some people become police officers because they want to protect and serve and others just want to feel like they have power and a big dick to swing around. You can't say that the majority of strippers are fucked up just because you go out of your way to deal with those that are and you feel as if you can get more bang for your buck.
I agree with @zipman: indirectly contributing to a problem and directly, knowingly contributing and exacerbating a problem are two entirely different things.
Got it. ;)
Personally, it's rare I even know a dancer's real name (unless she insists on telling me), let alone know about her housing or personal situation, other than the fact the she's agreed to fuck me for "x" dollars. There are dancers I've seen for years outside the club that I barely have conversations with inside or outside the club, and that's just the way I like it. OTOH, your modus operandi strikes me of finding the wounded wildebeast on the plains and attacking it. Not my cup of tea, but if it works for you, please feel free to continue.
CP
Sure they all need money, so what? You can take that need for money and work it your way so they play for you. Otherwise no use for them. I have heard all their BS stories how they are going to law school, studying nursing, etc. In the final analysis it will dawn on them they can make more money as an extras girl or provider. Old ATF's I have kept in touch in with are for the most part still providing. Some have careers but once a whore, they are in it for the long term.
At what point do I stop: When the girl rushes me, is a ROB, puts pressure on me for money, tries to use drama to extract funds, requests money for services not performed, does not get me off, is unreliable or late, gives lousy dances. These are when I will drop them.
Yea I will complement them about going to school or humor them and say how neat it is. But as a player I am looking to recruit a girl I can put on roster as a fuck fav (assuming I have recruiting needs).
After they finish their school after you have helped them with big bucks of your hard earned money will they give a shit about you - no. Wake up and smell the coffee.
You have been doing this for a long time and understand, quite well in fact, that the dancer population has higher degrees of exposure to certain issues than the general population. Yet whatever her motives are for fucking you, as well as her intended uses for the money, are all ok simply because you don't know what they are.
And contrary to your other assertions, I neither look to get into dancers' heads nor hunt for wounded animals. Given my particular gig in clubs, however, I do tend spend more time talking with dancers, during which time some of them choose to share details about their lives. I don't need to stick my head in the sand in order to enjoy my time in the clubs, nor am I going to run from an OTC prospect simply because the veil of ignorance about her circumstances has been pierced.
1. Definitely before you marry or have kids
2. Well before she attaches you with a baton and gun wearing a bullet proof vest.
Just ask Kris Benson:
[According to a police report, a fully armed Anna (Benson) confronted Kris (Benson) in the Smyrna, Ga., home they once shared, but that she now is under order to vacate. She was carrying a handgun and wearing a bulletproof vest. The former Penthouse model (and exotic dancer) also had a hatchet, expandable baton and a taser in her possession.]
Any of our ATL brothers recall seeing her in the ATL clubs way back when?
Of course he does both. Go back in read The System. RickyBoy fancies himself THE master of stripper psychology. Completely hilarious, because, in reality it turns out he is among the most clueless. They agreed to paid sex with you because you were the only wearing a suit in a dive club? Seriously Rick? He lack of psychological understanding is due to his narcissistic personality disorder. In nutshell narcissists either have severely impaired empathy or completely lack it, depending how close to anti-social personality disorder they also are. In essence they are only primarily capable of thinking of themselves and have been that way all their lives, so had the time to develop insights into other people. Hence, RickyBoy's ridiculous The System.
Now what was the other part? Oh, yes, wounded animals. Anti-socials definitively perceive themselves as predators. In their minds, the whole world is predator/prey "zero-sum" (although, for disguise they may make token statements that it is not). They are proud that they are predators in this game, and one of the ways they rationalize their actions is by claiming that everyone else would act that way if they got the chance, or if they were just stupid enough to see how much their "morality" (which they believe is just a calculated act anyway) enslaves them.
RickyBoy seems to admire the NY financial sharks the most, and alot of his posts her are his sublimated guilt that he cannot rise that high up the anti-social food chain.
You merely need to re-read The System to see he explicitly targets what he thinks are the weakest of girls - Go to dive clubs. Target single mothers, etc....
We have other narcissists on this board, but none so textbook pure as the RickBoy. It's quite the phenomena!
Don't get me wrong folks. I'm not advocating being a white knight. If it is clear to me that a girl is in a seriously bad situation the last thing I want to do is make a direct effort to help. Realistically, what could I do? I'm a random dude who walked in the club to see her and her co-workers get naked and maybe have some fun. Not exactly in a position to help. A white knight injects himself into situations that are none of his business. Not my gig in life. No good comes of it for ANYBODY.
I find it interesting that Rick-dude equates diapers and rent with drugs. Two of those things are normal parts of life. Drugs...not so much. Although moderate use of marijuana isn't that bad it IS illegal in most places and as such an invitation to life problems. I knew somebody whose life fell apart due to heroin and then methadone. Methadone maintenance is not an ideal solution, but it does have societal benefits. However, methadone is often covered by Medicade in many states. Maybe it isn't where you are. But I suspect you girl is probably using illicit drugs in addition to methadone. If she really is staying off heroin and other drugs good for her, but I still think you're contributing to a bad situation based upon your description. And you're bragging about it.
I have no issue paying a woman for services rendered knowing she will spend it on diapers or rent or a car. Why should I? All of those things are normal parts of life. I don't even care if she spends it on DVDs and x-box games. Nobody goes to jail for that. But if it is clear that the woman is really in a bad situation and will likely continue downhill...why should I feel comfortable contributing to and exacerbating that situation?
I think Duo summed things up nicely. It is one thing to INDIRECTLY contribute to a bad situation without knowing. It is another to ACTIVELY contribute to somebody's downward spiral.
At what point do I stop? When she does not treat me the way I want to be treated.
@ime - you mean, "loose AS goose". There is no "a" to accompany the urgency with which he must impart the undesirability of the lady parts. I like that "nice tight one" is in parentheses in case you didn't know what made a good fuck.
Delude yourself by pretending that you're "indirectly" contributing and that you "don't know" where the money actually goes, but if you're actively searching out and paying for sex then you're actively contributing to the same bad situations.
The hypocrisy in this thread is overwhelming. Even dugly, who thinks that 100% of dancers are whores (or is it lying whores?), has made sure to throw in some comments.
It's almost like you have a disorder which causes being oppositional to be of such primary importance to you. Much more important than you not being hypocritical. It's like part of your personality. Like an oppositional personality that is disordered. Like an oppositional personality disorder... Hey, that rings a bell. Isn't it a preferred name for "passive-aggressive personality disorder". Geee... Wonder if you epitomize that or what, jestie.
I have absolutely no problem funding diapers or babysitting or any other normal activity, irrespective of how bad off they are. In part, this is because I don't consider selling pussy to be any more or less immoral than most of the myriad other things human beings trade on a daily basis to make their living.
On the other hand, our man Gawker has an ATF who has a long documented history with drug abuse. His money still funds her abuses, but it seems as though Gawker actually cares for this girl beyond just a good fuck.
In the end, I think it's more of the motivation that makes me bristle with what Rick is describing.
Don't forget this is a guy who married a completely psycho chick because he thought it was his ticket into a rich family and a big inheritance. But that one didn't work out as he played and he ended up just screwing himself in the process.
How does one "indirectly" contribute to someone's downward spiral? Either you contribute or you don't. Ignorance, willful or otherwise, about her circumstances does not make the contribution any less direct.