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Friends, one more time

FONDL
I know I'll hate myself in the morning for asking and that we've beat this topic to death already, but I have to ask, how do you define your "friends"? Some of you have said that if there's money involved there's no friendship - I disagree with that and here's why.

My ATF has a person who she met in massage school, and they have an arrangement, one week she gives him a massage, the next week he gives her one. Friends? She thinks so. She has another friend who she met through other friends, he's a hairdresser, and one week she gives him a massage, the next week he does her hair. Friends? She also has two friends who she used to work with when she was a waitress and they still socialize together, and now they are her customers, she gives them a reduced price for massage but they still pay her and their tip usually brings them up to full price. Friends?

Last year I bought her a couple of gifts for Christmas and wrapped them up and sent them to her; this year she was starting a new business and needed some stuff so I sent her a check instead, which we both greatly preferred. Friends?

Keep in mind your economics course which taught that money has no intrinsic value, it's only worth what someone else is willing to exchange it for, and it's only reason for being is to make the barter process more efficient, and that bartering is the exact same thing as accepting money in exchange for goods or services. And if you don't agree ask the IRS.

So how do you define who your friends are? Does that definition change if you are of different sexes? Of vastly different ages? If the girl is or used to be a stripper?

16 comments

Latest

AbbieNormal
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19 years ago
Next we will take this thread to Cuba.
AbbieNormal
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19 years ago
FONDL, I agree, it is far more about power than "doing good" for most. The one I used to actually like the best was The Nature Conservency. They actually raised money to buy the land and maintain it in trust rather than just force the owner to pay taxes on land he could neither sell nor develop due to their lobbying and legislative efforts. In the end they dissapointed too. Conservation was at someone elses expense. Amnesty international was great when fighting aparthied and opression in various autocracies. When they started to see the US as the worlds greatest human rights violator, because that's what the big donors wanted to hear, I lost interest. They still probably do good work at some level, but they sold their souls as far as I'm concerned.
FONDL
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19 years ago
AN, the environmental groups suffer from the same problems that all organizations eventually do. Organizations are formed to accomplish some purpose. But as the original founders leave and are replaced by others who are less committed to the original goals, and as the original goals are largely accomplished, it becomes all about power. I worked very closely with senior people at several of the best known environmental organizations, and it was obvious from their actions that their major goal was accumulating personal power and reputation, not about saving the environment. They were more interested in playing politics than doing good. If people understood how their money was actually being spent, private donations to nearly all nonprofits would decline drastically. And that's true whether you're talking about liberal groups or conservative ones.
AbbieNormal
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19 years ago
Don't get me started on "environmental" groups and NGO's. I used to give money to a lot of them until it turned out their main interest was passing legislation, not actually, you know, doing anything about the problems they were supposedly formed to address.
FONDL
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19 years ago
AN, you are absolutely correct, inlike most members of the media you understand how government works. Organizations are forced to lobby congress to protect themselves, and abuses result. And it isn't just business, nonprofits are equally active if not more so - for example the environmental community is one of the strongest and most active lobbying groups on the Hill. The only way to reduce the abuse is to reduce the size and power of government. Actually there's probably more abuse at the state and local level than at the federal level because there is often less oversight.
AbbieNormal
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19 years ago
FONDL, I know, most lobbyists represent specific single clients, such as professional organizations, trade associations, manufacturers, industry groups, etc, etc. Most of what they do is pass information and studies to the congressmen and their staffs considering legislation. Still, the one thing that always gets me when people decry the corrupting influence of money and lobying in government, nobody considers why so many buisnesses, organizations, trade associations, etc, etc, find it necessary to lobby so hard. Because a congressman can destroy your entire net worth with a careless line (or a deliberate one) in a 100,000 page appropriations bill that nobody ever reads before voting on it. Any buisness would be insane to not try to buy, or at least be on very good terms with a number of congressmen considering the power congress has to punish or bestow favors on buisnesses.
tropicalH2O
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19 years ago
Part 2: It doesn't matter if the friends are same sex or not and the age doesn't matter, in my opinion. If I don't like someone, then I don't make time for them. Being a former stripper is fine. It's good that people work and support themselves in a legal (mostly) occupation, then eventually move on and get another career. Because your friendship survived the switch from the club environ indicates that you genuinely enjoy spending time together. Are you unhappy with your relationship?
tropicalH2O
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19 years ago
FONDL, I think that all of your examples could be considered frienships that share an element of business. A friend is someone that I voluntarily spend my time with and look forward to seeing or hearing from.

I feel like I'm missing out on some information though. Are you unhappy because you gave your friend a monetary gift or are you unhappy because you know that some of her other business relationships get a discount on their massage?
davids
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19 years ago
FONDL you have some stiff competition but I still think you are the most pathetic of posters here. Ok, JC is close, but he is only in his 30s and hopefully will recover.

It's really simple: If you call up your friend about going out to dinner just to talk and he/she says "Sure, but I am going to have to charge you $100/hr for my time". Then the person is not your friend.

You got an IQ of what? I mean you're above parodyman. I am guessing at least lower 80s. You should be able to figure this out.
looker123
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19 years ago
Just a thought, but I find most of my friends are people I have spent time with because of work. How does that work into the idea of time for money?????
FONDL
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19 years ago
Actually, AN, I was never powerful enough to achieve pimp status. There are only a small number of such guys, commonly called "rainmakers" but your term is an equally accurate description. There are many different types of lobbyists and most of them do more good than harm, in fact Congress couldn't function without them. It's a fascinating subject and one that's portrayed extremely inaccurately in the media. Much like strippers are.
AbbieNormal
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19 years ago
Well, if anyone would know the real definition of a whore it'd be a Washington lobbyist. Sorry FONDL, couldn't resist.

Just to clarify, the whores being the congressmen, the lobyist being the pimps.
FONDL
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19 years ago
T- water, you made an excellent point and I'm not sure you're even aware of it. And that's the value of our time. We all place a value on our time, and for some of us that's a large number while for others it's smaller. Which is exaclty why I said that there's no such thing as free sex, because even if you don't spend a dime on her, it takes time to get her into your bed. The only way you can argue that it's free is to say that your time is worthless. That's why a lot of wealthier people hire escorts, they have the money to pay for it but not the time to go looking for it for "free," in otherwords their time is worth more to them than the cost of the escort. When you talk about services, money almost always flows from the person whose time is more valuable to the person whose time is less valuable.

Chandler, that's pretty funny because I used to be a DC lobbyist. And I don't live my life according to the dictionery, I was merely pointing out that the dictionery definition of "prostitution" makes no sense.
chandler
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19 years ago
FONDL, I wouldn't use your interpretation of dictionary meanings as a way to live your life. Propositioning somebody's wife could get you in trouble. Likewise, we need to draw distinctions between people we pay to be friendly to us and true friends. That's not to say the two are mutually exclusive. But because there are gray areas doesn't mean that we can't distinguish between them. But then, you once said that it wasn't always obvious when an exchange is quid pro quo, which is the same as saying what's obvious isn't obvious. Excuse me, FONDL, but are you a Washington lobbyist?
tropicalH2O
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19 years ago
I don't think that there's a problem with sharing money or spending it on your friends. I'm glad that you are happy with your relationship.

Everyone is weird about money. I don't need a fancy car or fancy furniture, but I value living in a safe neighborhood. I could work in the club a lot more, but my child needs my time, more than I need the $$$ now. I spend a lot of money to go to a fancy gym and like it there because the high dues keeps the 'riff-raff' out. Vacations are something that I spend a lot of money on because I love to be entertained and experience different cities, countries and cultures.

My dad complains whenever he hears about a vacation, he thinks that I waste money and then I explain that he goes to the bar and spends his money there and on smoking. We all spend our money differently and this is one of are freedoms and pleasures. Glad that you're happy, FONDL.
FONDL
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19 years ago
T-water, I'm sorry if you got the impression that I'm unhappy with the relationship, nothing could be further from the truth. I'm only trying to understand the hangup some people here have with money being involved in a relationship. There's always something of value exchanged in every relationship - making an exception for money simply means that the peson making the exception deosn't understand what money is. It's the same with "free" vs. "paid" sex - there's always something of value exchanged for sex, there's no such thing as free sex. Which is why laws against prostitution make no sense - prostitution is impossible to define in a way that excludes some forms of sex. If you take the dictionery definition of prostitution, all sex is prostitution.
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