tuscl

Dilemna

JohnBuford
Massachusetts
Monday, October 22, 2012 5:30 PM
So I'm I'm the area on business and stop in a club I frequent from time to time.I'm quickly approached by a dancer I've never seen before.She's very touchy/feely.She's not my type at all,but as we're talking I can see she is very bright.We are discussing travel,politics,the economy [view link] I KNOW I'm not getting a LD from her,but I'm really enjoying the chat.I bought her a glass of wine and tipped her ten bucks when it was her turn.She finally pops the question,I tell her I'm leaving and she's stunned,but walks [view link] here is my question.Should I have told her upfront I was not interested in a LD ? Should I have given her some more money at that time ? What say you my fellow SC brothers ?

78 comments

  • pabloantonio
    •
    12 years ago
    Buford: I dont know how long you talked, but it is customary (imo) to tip a dancer about $20 for every 30 minutes or so of conversation. They are investing their time in you, so tip them so they won't lose income. Otherwise tell your dancer you are not going to get a dance and let her go.
  • kentuckywonder
    •
    12 years ago
    It depends. How much time did she spend with you? At least you tipped her $10.00? You probably should have tipped her more or been honest with her in the first 10 minutes.
  • georgmicrodong
    •
    12 years ago
    There's not many clubs in Louisville that don't employ the drink hustle for time with the dancers, which hustle nets them so cash, so this doesn't come up often. But when it does, such as at PTs, I'm generally up front with them, though there's one or two girls there interesting enough to tip some, besides the non-hustle drink, for their time.
  • Otto22
    •
    12 years ago
    What was so disgusting about this girl that you would not even attempt a dance with her? If I have enjoyed a dancer's company I am always willing to have a dance or two even if I do not find her particularly attractive physically.
  • Tecolote
    •
    12 years ago
    10 seems generous to me, but it depends on her opportunity cost. If she's losing money that she could be making from other customers, then I'd tell her something like, I'd love talking to you, but just so you know I'm waiting for a dance from someone else. If it was slow, and she's just killing time, then I wouldn't feel so bad if she opted to hang out with you.
  • JohnBuford
    •
    12 years ago
    The place was dead,but I should have given her more money.I see that now.Or,told her upfront I was not interested in a LD.Lesson learned.
  • shadowcat
    •
    12 years ago
    JohnBuford - "[view link]" appears in blue on your OP. So I clicked on it. Vely [view link].
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Tell her right you aren't interested.
  • jester214
    •
    12 years ago
    If you're not gonna get dances or pay for time, then don't engage them.
  • Clubber
    •
    12 years ago
    sc, I also click to see what happened. No alert from McAfee. but I still left the site quickly.
  • Estafador
    •
    12 years ago
    It wasn't japanese so I couldn't read it. It was korean and I can't read korean
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Any Koreans who are members?
  • pabloantonio
    •
    12 years ago
    VH Kicks: I don't know how much experience you have with dancers but they dont want their pictures posted, they don't want their measurements posted, and they sure don't want to go to a fucking kiosk to see which pathetic loser has picked them out of an app. Dancers are not E-bay merchandise, they like to appraise potential customers in person. The reason we have the current status quo is because it works. For some reason, for every guy who wastes a dancers' time, there is another who more than makes up for it.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    The reverse is true too. For every dancer who wastes a patron's time, there's usually one to rock your world.
  • shadowcat
    •
    12 years ago
    Clubber - I wonder what the odds are of that happening?
  • Estafador
    •
    12 years ago
    VH_Kicks, what are you trying to prove. I assume you're trying to prove something because you're goading people by calling them sheep because they accept what's already systematic?
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Any woman who might be a significant other of VH_KICKS I feel sorry for since he considers women pieces of meat. Don't use the argument that Dancers aren't women. I think EVERY single one would demand being recognized as women.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    I still feel sorry for any of your women significant others. Too bad they can't read your mind and discover how you TRULY see them.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    I've been in a whole lot more than you have. Treating dancers with respect has worked for me for 20 yrs of clubbing. Treating them like raw hamburger won't work VERY long, if it would work at all. A guy can be Horny without being an arrogant, fucking, stupid ASSHOLE.
  • jester214
    •
    12 years ago
    Another "brilliant" idea by VH that sounds awesome but would never work in the real world. This guy can't figure out why dancers might not want anybody with an internet connection to see where/when they work.
  • jester214
    •
    12 years ago
    Do they show every dancer in the club? Do they show whether they are currently inside the club? No, of course they don't. You have no grasp of the real world.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    VIP Room experiences are a mutually agreed upon transaction between two consenting adults. Any dancers who don't wish to participate are free to refuse. I respect their right to say "No Thanks" if we can't agree on terms. Treating them as a woman and NOT raw meat increases the chance that I get a satisfying experience and that the dancer gets what she believes she is worth in her transaction with me. jester214, I don't agree with you often but your assessment of VH_KICKS is correct.
  • jester214
    •
    12 years ago
    LOL it thinks a club is going to be honest about whether a dancer is actually working? I don't know why that surprises me, it actually thinks the pictures on a SC website represent ever girl they have working at that exact moment. Alucard, just turn on your phone while you get the BJ, then it won't be illegal. LOL
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    What about your Cleveland escort transaction for $300? You can't have it BOTH ways VH_KICKS. So how many Criminal Acts of Sex have you committed and are you going to turn yourself in to the police? I think NOT!
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Hey that might be fun jester214. BY the way, I've NEVER seen a single WEB page dancer in a club. Maybe VH_KICKS needs glasses.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    You seem to be avoiding my question about Cleveland and the $300 escort. Or are you going to use a Dougster tactic and just attack and hope no one catches you. Hmm...
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Maybe you are Dougster in an alias. In any case this talk is starting to get boring.
  • jester214
    •
    12 years ago
    LOL, yeah because strip clubs really survive on word of mouth business. I've seen club websites that had pictures of dancers who haven't worked there in years. They're still functioning.
  • jester214
    •
    12 years ago
    Can't refute logic? Toss out insults that don't make sense. "Smell ya later" ???
  • pabloantonio
    •
    12 years ago
    VH Kicks: I am descended from a long line of Spanish sheep, not African apes. The same reason dancers don't want their photos posted is the same reason they put aliases on their SOB licenses. And the same reason that every dancer who participates in this fm submits an avatar picture with no face or a photo so blurred, no one would recognize her. Whether you want to believe it or not, there is a certain level of personal attraction between dancers and customers. Otherwise dancers wouldn't go to the VIP with us.
  • Tiredtraveler
    •
    12 years ago
    Enough with the "strip club app" If you are to lazy to sort the girls out with your eyes please go sit in your car watch porn on your "smart phone" (which you obviously expect to think for you) and look for an app to have it jerk you off! Girls sitting, texting or playing on their phones is part of the problem not the solution. They all have smart phones and spend a small fortune on them, does that make them smarter or just poorer??
  • Tiredtraveler
    •
    12 years ago
    There is one other question I would like to propose. Are we better off with smart phone in everyones hands. Pros: Always connected Cons: Always connected No privacy No down time The government can monitor your location (GPS in every phone by law) Expensive Pictures of you on the net Facebook! Twitter! The list is infinite.
  • georgmicrodong
    •
    12 years ago
    Really? You just trade one troll for another? How does that demonstrate anything remotely resembling reasonable behaviour?
  • harrydave
    •
    12 years ago
    I'm hardly ever here, but it took me only 2 threads to decide to put him on ignore. Hope you guys are having fun. Cheers from the Sultanate of Oman!
  • Estafador
    •
    12 years ago
    Actuually there's a new jeoisey club that posts what strippers are on the floor at what time of the day. There are other websites that show current day strippers (professional photography of course) and then there are those that simply give SPECIFIC menu prices (champagne room ex). VH_Kicks you are behind. The apps won't fly in the club because managers and strippers make it plainly clear there is absolutely no recording to be taken place on the premise thus no phones allowed. The fact that you can afford a strip club period means either your phone has a camera on it or you bought one already and clubs don't want to take any chances with technology not under their control. @kicks watch what the fuck you say. Is there a problem with apes? Are you trying to say something about africa?
  • JohnBuford
    •
    12 years ago
    Had I known this was going to deterioate into mindless name-calling I never would have started the thread.VH,I like your "thinking outside the box" approach.I've heard of SC's that post a "roll call" on their web site,listing the names of the dancers who are scheduled to work that [view link] ? Hmmm.Not so much.I know girls who drive two hours one way,so as help protect their [view link] one has a monopoly on new ideas.But with name-calling people concentrate on the messenger and not the message.Switch to de-caf.
  • Estafador
    •
    12 years ago
    pablo, the same thing applies to you. Is there something you'd like to say about africa? On a different note, I'm seeing a helluva lot of hyopcricy from nearly everyone in the club
  • Estafador
    •
    12 years ago
    Thread*
  • Clubber
    •
    12 years ago
    sc, I've used McAfee for years and nevery once has something gotten through, unless I overrode their suggestion.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Tiredtraveler you can turn you phone off to get some private down time. It's NOT a requirement that we all be CONNECTED 24/7.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    VH_KICKS show me where in this thread that I SPECIFICALLY said that posting photos of dancers in an app is disrespectful of dancers. That is if you can stay on the point rather than acting out.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    Actually I think VH has a seed of a good idea here. But, as usual, if you don't agree with 100% of everything he says then he starts with the 3rd grade name calling. Anyway, I'm not sure if the whole thing would fly in the US, but there are precedents (to a certain degree) in other countries. So I'm not sure I'd consider it that far "outside the box". For example, in parts of Asia (and elsewhere) in the hooker clubs they put number tags on the dancer's outfit, and the girls will line up in front of the customers, or dance on stage, and you pick the girl you want from the lineup, give the waiter her number, and you're off to the races. Very convenient for the customers, and clearly some girls do put up with being treated like they're on a menu at McDonald's. However, like I say, that's Asia, and here in the US, given the choice between a club where they are chosen out of a lineup and one where they aren't, I'd assume the 'lineup' club would have more difficulty hiring dancers. But I've always wished that clubs would post realtime videos online showing who's dancing that shift. And I recall some clubs (Mons Venus??) offered something like that to their premium website members, though I never tried it so I could be off on that. And that was many years ago. But again, clearly, given the choice between working at a club where the world could see in real time that you were working as a stripper, and a club that didn't have that, I'm sure most strippers would rather work somewhere where they could be a little more anonymous. When your daughter's classmates can merely look online to see that her mom is a stripper, that's probably not a club most dancers want to work at. Heck, there are a lot of club websites with photos of the girls dancing there, and from what I've seen many/most of them either blank out the girls faces or don't show their faces at all. Most strippers don't want to be easily associated with a strip club. Heck, it's tough enough knowing that someone they know (or their kids know) could walk in and identify them. So, like his other brilliant ideas, from one perspective (in this case the customers' perspective) it's a nice idea, but from the other perspective it might be, well, a challenge. Y'know, kinda like when he said that hookers should videotape themselves having sex with their clients, and obtain copies of the clients' ID's. Great for the hooker, deadly for the client. Oh, by the way VH, I noticed that some of the clients that hooker in Maine videotaped have had to quit their jobs. Did you tell the lawyer about your "outside the box" idea yet?
  • jester214
    •
    12 years ago
    Fair point GMD.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    By the way, in the category of "the devil is in the details", implementing something like this would be a real challenge. Strip clubs don't generally have IT specialists, nor do they have guys who could manage stuff like this. Just look at all the clubs who post realtime lists of who's dancing. Very, very few. Who's gonna do it? Everyone else has a job to do. So then you'd have to hire another guy who's IT savvy (which means expensive), and can keep the list up to date, etc. How many clubs would want the extra expense? Again, good idea from the customer perspective, but overall probably not real practical. But personally I'd love it. Though if the clubs was still a sucky club, would this feature make me visit the club? Probably not.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    VH sez: "1) Girls don't like their faces posted on apps or websites -- even though 1000's of SC websites already post their photos" Well, I think you're overstating it quite a bit. My count shows that there are probably a couple thousand active clubs in the US total. Now, what percentage of those clubs have websites that post ANY stripper photos? And then figure what percentage of those post photos which show identifiable faces. And then figure what percentage of girls who dance at the club actually agreed to have photos of themselves? I think you'll quickly realize that very few strippers have identifiable pictures of themselves on club websites. Very few. Heck, just look thru the Deja Vu website for identifiable photos of active dancers at any of the clubs.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    And, as usual, VH never responds to the key issues which show his ideas to be useless. Instead he makes it an "all or nothing" argument. I never said ALL girls would refuse to have their pictures posted. I said if you look at ACTUAL instances you will find that it's so few that your idea would be fairly useless. A large majority of girls would end up as "anonymous", making your idea virtually useless. Not totally useless, but probably not worth the sizeable effort. So is it that you want 100% agreement with EVERYTHING you say, or you start with the name calling? And you never answered the other issues I raised.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    "2) For the girls who want to hustle as many customers as possible for LDs, they happily consent to having their photos posted on the SC website " Dude, so you're TELLING strippers how they should act? Just because you think it's logical for them to do something doesn't mean they agree. And based on the facts of ACTUAL CLUB WEBSITES online today, your point is shown to be incorrect.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    Okay, VH, as I said in the other thread, your idea is brilliant, you're really thinking outside the box, and we're all proud of you. Now, put your money where your mouth is. Here's a perfect opportunity to prove yourself to be brilliant. As part of your strip club consulting service, aside from offering legal advice and getting all the strippers to videotape themselves having sex in the VIP, get club owners to install your app. Email Deja Vu, for example, and let us know how it goes.
  • TortillaChip
    •
    12 years ago
    Hey all you people that complain about trolls on this site. Ever notice how the Aluretard is always neck deep in these flame wars? The king is amongst you, dumbfucks. Until you slay the troll king, this site is going to be a troll haven. But then, most of you are too stupid to realize that. So, carry on I guess.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    "Millions of iPhone apps available and they all require an IT specialist to install, eh? Funny!" What they require is someone to write them. Which costs money. And someone to maintain them as OS's change and get revised. Which costs money. And someone in the club who has the time and knowledge to fix the computer when it has problems, and so on. And how many clubs can justify the ongoing expense? And more importantly, WHY would they justify it? Is it drawing customer revenue, or is it just a nice convenience that doesn't really result in any new revenue? Again, put your money where your mouth is. Prove it. If it's a great idea, approach the club owner next time you're in your favorite club, and see what he says.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    "So girls are deathly afraid people know they work at strip clubs --- why dont they all wear ski masks during their shift, dippy? That would certainly protect this anonymity you think they want so badly." What you apparently can't comprehend is that it's a MATTER OF DEGREE, and a matter of RISK. Different girls have different limits about what they will do. Some would NEVER, EVER work in a strip club. Others would work in a club, and take the risk that someone they know will find come in and see them dancing. But those same girls are far less likely to take the much greater risk of being easily identified by anyone on the planet who merely has to click on a website to see that she's a stripper. Do you understand that? Worrying about someone making the effort to visit a club is far less risky than worrying about someone merely clicking on a website. Isn't that obvious? Anyone, of any age or gender, anywhere on the planet, can click on a website. But it's far less likely that your daughter's 12 year old friend, or your grandmother, will visit a club and find you out.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    Okay, VH, put numbers to it. How much does it cost to write your app? How much does it cost to maintain? How much does it cost to maintain the hardware? Once you have those numbers, tell us how much revenue the app will bring the club. Until you can make a business case, you have nothing.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    "Software companies write apps, sniffy --- not the chimps working at strip clubs" Dude IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO YOU GET TO WRITE THE APP. The point is it costs money to write it !!!!! You keep dancing around the important stuff and focusing on irrelevant stuff.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    BTW, VH, I did some real quick searching for you, and found one of many websites for companies that specialize in iPhone apps. It even gives costs for development, etc. Check it out, and then when you have some real info let us know if you want to stick with your brilliant idea: [view link] Or is this the point where you come back with "...yeah, whatever..." and drop it?
  • steve_ny
    •
    12 years ago
    It usually takes hundreds, maybe thousands of outside the box ideas before one takes off. Keep trying because this one would fail miserably because as almost everyone has mentioned, girls do not want to be viewed on a smartphone. Most dancers have a life outside the club and would not have their pictures posted. Maybe you could develop the app and market it in Asia.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    "It usually takes hundreds, maybe thousands of outside the box ideas before one takes off" And it takes more than just an idea, it takes someone with the fortitude to admit what works and what doesn't work, and be flexible enough to admit when he's chasing a crappy idea. And once you have a good idea, you need to have the balls to follow up and figure out how to implement it.
  • steve_ny
    •
    12 years ago
    I agree and it is also important to have an idea and try to evolve it into something that may work. That is why brainstorming can bring out great ideas. One person throws something out there and it develops into something different. We can talk business all day bit not sure what this has to do with the dilemma....
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    "So a strip club app is so enormously expensive that no software company would be foolish enough to write one?" I never said that. For any business to invest in anything it has to provide a return. Which is why I suggested you figure out the cost of the app (and even provided a link to help you) and also suggested you figure out how much revenue that investment will bring the club. Until you do that, you have nothing. If it costs $20,000 to develop the app, plus a monthly maintenance fee, the club must recover that money by bringing in more customers. What you fail to answer are the most important points: Will your app recover the money it takes to develop and maintain? Also, will enough strippers agree to be registered that it's worth having it for customers?
  • Clackport
    •
    12 years ago
    I don't even remember the OP's question. Leave it up to the trolls to destroy another thread. Jerikson was complaining about moronic tit for tat comments on one of his threads a couple of weeks ago, but now he's doing the same thing. Jerikson- Stop feeding the trolls.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    You're right. Sorry. I think it's time to go to a strip club.
  • Dougster
    •
    12 years ago
    I'm with you VH, Alucard has officially proclaimed himself a genius on TUSCL, yet he thinks it's possible to pay hookers for BBBJCIMWS and still respect them? He thinks they feel respected afterward? Can't get no dumber than that!
  • pabloantonio
    •
    12 years ago
    Actually, it is my fault for opening the door to the troll, and I apologize to the members here. I'm with you Jerikson, let me buy you a drink and a dance.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    And one last statement for Mr. VH to show we're on his side... VH, dude, this is a golden opportunity. If you really think your idea has merit, you're right, ignore the sheep. You can make money with this, dude. Maybe not a million $$, but you can make some money. Here's my suggestion: 1. Go to one of the many companies who develops iPhone apps. Give them a spec for what your app should do. Let them develop it for you. 2. When they're done, get a short term business loan. Let's say they charge $10k. No big deal, pay them and you'll recover that money real quick. 3. Now, there are about 2,000 active clubs in the US. If you can sell your app to each club, and charge them a measly $10 each for your app, you've paid off your loan and made $10,000. Free money, dude. 4. Contact the suits at Deja Vu, probably the biggest chain in the US. Give them a "deal", charging them only $50 per club for your app. If it's good, they'll jump at the chance. And as a result you have the 'industry standard' application. Selling it to the other clubs will be eazy peazy. Good luck, dude. We're counting on you.
  • txtittyfan
    •
    12 years ago
    Thousands of apps are developed every day without any upfront investment by potential customers. The app maker simply makes a judgment about whether there is sufficient demand for the app --- and if there is, writes the app and sells it for recoups the development cost through advertisting. Simple as that And since none of these app makers see any merit to your suggestion, the app doesn't exist. Simple as that.
  • txtittyfan
    •
    12 years ago
    Nice try Dumbo, but the apps you reference do not do what you want them to. And as I have mentioned in other threads, management caters to the masses, not the individual.
  • Tiredtraveler
    •
    12 years ago
    Alucard and VH: I was being devils advocate. My point was not that you can't turn off your phone, which I do, but that many people get PO'ed when anyone dares to turn off their phone and can't be reached 24/7. A phone is a tool that is rapidly becoming a crutch. Why would you need an app to go clubbing? A club is a fantasy, phones and apps (in my opinion) bring in reality. Why?? I don't take my high end phone or credit cards into a club. I have had a pre-pay phone lifted from the table on the vip booth. No loss but if it was my regular phone it could have been a problem. The manager did not care.
  • mikeya02
    •
    12 years ago
    Sorry VHKicks, your "out of the box" idea is about as feasible as brown toilet paper or Lobster Helper.
  • steve_ny
    •
    12 years ago
    I didn't say you should be a sheep, just that the idea won't work. Take the idea and develop into something that will work. If you disagree, go to the club and start taking pictures of the girls. Tell them it's for the download a stripped app and see how that works out for you.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    VH, seriously, between you and me, I have a question... And this isn't intended to be an attack, it's a real question: Dude, do you have some sort of mental problems? I'm not trying to be mean, but geez dude, you seem to be unable to focus on stuff or comprehend real simple concepts, and you just post this unrelated nonsense that makes zero sense. I mean, you actually think that strip club locator apps have anything to do with what we're talking about? And you get into this big unrelated discussion about who pays for development of an app, which has nothing to do with anything. Dude, don't you see how completely irrational all of your points are? I suggest, very simply, how you can make money off your brilliant idea, and you go off into some strange discussion of SC locator apps and who pays for development. Honestly, I'm starting to feel bad for you, and maybe we shouldn't be so tough on you. Maybe you have some issues that aren't your fault. If that's the case, I apologize.
  • mikeya02
    •
    12 years ago
    But if you still think it's a "great" idea, stop with the shitload posting of your mofo crap and go out and market it.
  • Papi_Chulo
    •
    12 years ago
    I just started to read this thread and noticed it was 95 comments long – WTF??? And it was only posted yesterday
  • motorhead
    •
    12 years ago
    Just woke up. Isn't "Dilemna" spelled incorrectly?
  • steve_ny
    •
    12 years ago
    Turned into a Sham Wow commercial by the man with a plan
  • Estafador
    •
    12 years ago
    VH_Kicks YOUR fucking stupid and a lapdog with no good comebacks. If you read what I wrote I plainly stated "thus NO PHONES ALLOWED". You can't use an app if you can't take out your phone. I think its time for you to go back to 3rd grade english my white caveman friend. Perhaps you should talk to a stripper or two or even a manager and ask them about it for their opinions instead of whining to everyone about it if you feel that god damn high strung on the fucking idea. Any other ideas sir or are you just going to be ignorant and call everyone who disagrees with you a sheep. Only tools do that after all.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Tiredtraveler if someone is getting pissed off because they can't reach me 24/7 because I turned my phone off or silenced it, well.... that is their problem NOT mine.
  • Tiredtraveler
    •
    12 years ago
    Alucard that is my point. It IS their problem but many people feel entitled to my time. I have several people that would call any time they felt like it with trivial non work bull shit and would be upset when I told them to call later or email. Just look at the rants in this discussion when anyone suggests that using a smart phone to select a stripper may not be for them or may not work so well. You get called names and told you are stupid for disagreeing. It is like argueing with a Democrat when they have lied about the facts they just scream the lie louder thinking like Joseph Goebbles if you tell a fabrication loud enough and long enough it becomes true. The real reason a stripper app may not work work well is "Strippers Lie" and are not above having photos taken at the perfect angle or air brushing etc. I have seen photos up in clubs of the dancers and later met a dancer from the photo and more than 1/2 the time I could not recognize the girl from the photo without the name. Lighting and make-up can to wonders. Many hollywood beauties are really 6's in "9" make-up and scary up close. I.E. Renee Zellweger, and Madonna.
  • Experimental
    •
    12 years ago
    "It is like argueing with a Democrat when they have lied about the facts they just scream the lie louder thinking like Joseph Goebbles if you tell a fabrication loud enough and long enough it becomes true." Tiredtraveler, LOL, you obviously aren't a democrat. Are you suggesting republicans don't do the same?
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    I would say it is like arguing with a Republican! LMAO Tiredtraveler if these persons want SO MUCH of your time, charge them $$ by the minute. LOL
You must be a member to leave a comment.Join Now
Got something to say?
Start your own discussion