tuscl

morality/religion

neon44
Dumped by ATF?
I've been going to SCs about 2-3 times a month for the last half year. I'm more of a deist/agnostic and not religious but often feel guilty after attending a SC. Almost like I'm committing a "sin" or something. I don't even buy dances every time. Maybe its because I'm fb friends with a few fundies I met on youtube. lol
ps. I'm a fan of the website and am not judging anyone here.

37 comments

  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    If you are feeling guilty about Clubbing, QUIT doing it! Pretty simple. I'll leave it to you to figure out your moral issues.

    I enjoy doing what I do in clubs and have NO moral qualms about my activities.
  • snowtime
    •
    12 years ago
    First of all, I get the impression from previous discussions that many on TUSCL are at least agnostic, if not athiest. I certainly fit that catagory. I have no problem with my religious friends, I just don't buy into the hearafter,etc. I do support the charitable work SOME churches do to help the less fortunate. Wish they woud do more and take some of the burdon off the US Government.
    As in interesting aside to your comment, I had a strange occurance during a strip club visit several weeks ago. I had a good fully nude lap dance from a very cute dancer. It was on a Tuesday and I asked her if she "danced" on Sundays. She looked me square in the eyes and said "no, I attend church on Sunday". After several more minutes she revealed that the church she attends is "diferent". According to her, it is "non denominational" and "non judgemental". She also added that smoking was permitted in church and many of the parishiners were bikers. Might just be the place for you, neon44.
  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    Interesting...

    Have a seat, my son. Let's discuss this in more detail.

    Now, I noticed that in the one club review you posted, that just about everyone you encountered in that club was either rude to you, or annoyed with you, and you even felt that one of the customers was staring at you.

    Interesting...

    Now, do you find that you often feel that others are laughing at you behind your back, or perhaps judging you? Did you often get scolded as a child?

    Perhaps you have an issue with low self esteem, and feel that you're always doing something wrong.

    Or, on the other hand, maybe you're just like everyone else who subconsciously thinks that strip clubs are naughty.
  • gatorfan
    •
    12 years ago
    I'm a half assed Krishna Christian Bornagain Barracuda
  • Omega22
    •
    12 years ago
    I am an atheist and don't see anything wrong with strip clubs. Everyone there is there by choice. Also anything that happens at the clubs are between two consenting adults. The girl doesn't have to give a customer a dance nor does the customer have to get a dance.
    So those statements sum up why I don't think there are any moral issues, but that is my opinion. Neon44 whether or not strip clubs are for you is something for you to figure out. If you think they are fun and you enjoy going then go. However if you find yourself uncomfortable then look into other hobbies.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Jerikson40, I don't think of Strip Clubs as naughty. Do you include yourself in your sweeping comment?
  • motorhead
    •
    12 years ago
    I believe in the Church of Baseball. I've tried all the major religions, and most of the minor ones. I've worshipped Buddha, Allah, Brahma, Vishnu, Siva, trees, mushrooms, and Isadora Duncan. I know things. For instance, there are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I heard that, I gave Jesus a chance. But it just didn't work out between us. The Lord laid too much guilt on me.
  • jester214
    •
    12 years ago
    Never bothered me, but my sense of morality is heavily weighted in the 'if it doesn't hurt anybody else then go for it' way.
  • neon44
    •
    12 years ago
    Good points,it's not like the girls are sex slaves or forced to work there.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    I don't question their morality either. They make that decision themselves.

    BUT there are a GREAT MANY members who don't seem to have any problems with questioning the morals of dancers.
  • lopaw
    •
    12 years ago
    I'm agnostic and don't give a flying hoot as to anyone's religion. Pray as you want to, just as long as they don't try to push their "morality" or agenda upon those that don't invite it.

    Guilt about visiting stripclubs or partaking of pleasures in the adult industry? Pfffft. No way am I gonna feel guilty about feeling GOOD.
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Worshipping at the alter of Sexual Pleasure. ;) :))
  • DandyDan
    •
    12 years ago
    I'm also an atheist myself and don't see anything morally wrong with strip clubs and stripclubbing. My problem is the fact that of all the atheists I've met, either in person or online, seems to have a problem with stripclubs and how they're allegedly degrading to the women who work there. No one makes them work there. The weird thing is that the only two people I ever went to strip clubs with more than once are both religious, at least mildly so, at least. Of course, one of them has the preposterous position that it's easier to believe in God than not to, which I find wrong because if you believe in God, you not only have to prove God exists, but that your version of God is it.
  • kittykate
    •
    12 years ago
    Didn't read all this--just the post above. There are girls at the club, who are being forced to work there. Not just in the cities. In the little, white bred towns, too. It's not the majority of the girls, but way more ladies than you would think, have pimps. That's my biggest moral issue with this business. People have told me that I should feel bad because there are so many guys who lie to their wives and take money away from their kids at strip clubs. I kinda feel like that's going to happen, no matter what. I don't know why, but that doesn't bother me like the pimping issue does. I work with 3 girls, right now who all have the same pimp. I watch them physically shake when they've had a bad night and then come back the next day with bruises and burns. Once I gave one of the girls some of my cash. Just stuffed it in her bag, so I wouldn't have to put her on the stop or let her know I knew her secret. I'm such an idiot. I don't know what happened for sure. I guessing that her pimp found it before she did. She came back to work the next day limping, looking half dead. I still want to die when I think about that. There are always going to be pimps and hoes, I guess, even without strip clubs. But watching these girls suffer breaks my heart. I know this is extremely hypocritical (and just to be clear, I'm not judging anyone), but I don't know if I could support a strip club, as a customer. I think about that, sometimes. I guess I can't really answer my question, since I'm a chick who has absolutely no desire to have a stranger grind on me. But sometimes I really get mad at the clubs, because they know what's happening. They know that these girls are getting beaten by pimps after having every penny taken from them. Half the times the pimps are in the clubs, collecting their cash as it comes in. As a customer, you wouldn't know it, in some clubs. It's not something even the girls usually talk about. The actual victims never talk about it. They are instructed on how to act and they take their instruction very seriously. The pimp thing is so weird to me. Just like a normal abusive relationship, many of the girls think they are in love with their pimps. They call them daddy and really believe they can't make it without them. Anyway. It's sad and it happens more and more these days. I've been a circuit dancer for years, all over the country. It really does happen almost everywhere. Maybe not in every club, but in every area of the country. Last time I danced in NYC I worked with some girls that were straight up trafficked slaves. It's a nightmare. It's the ugliest thing in the world.
  • kittykate
    •
    12 years ago
    Before anyone jumps on me, I know I'm a hypocrite. Also, I don't judge anyone for going to the club. I really don't. I have no authority to tell anyone what their moral code should be. And I'm not saying that most dancer have pimps. Thankfully, it's a very small population of us. But it does happen sometimes and when it does it's the most disturbing, heartbreaking aspect of my job. It makes me question all kinds of things. I'm not saying that strip clubs need to be shut down or that guys are supporting pimps by buying dances or anything like that. I do think that this is an issue that needs to be acknowledged. I'm surprised that there are so many posters here that seem to believe that strippers ALWAYS dance consensually. But, I guess, when I started dancing, I had no idea that these things were happening. 4 years ago, I met this girl who really seemed crazy and shut down. She would hustle like her life depended on it, every night. She didn't have a drug problem or kids.. I couldn't figure it out. She would lose her shit if she made under a grand. Out of the blue, she called me one night for a ride. I picked her up behind a gas station. Her pimp had shoved her face through a glass coffee table for buying a sandwich at work. (She's not allowed to spend money, ever. If she needs food, tampons, anything, she has to get it though the pimp.) As I cleaned her cuts and pulled pieces of glass out of her body, I realized that she had burns in all kinds of weird places, like the bottoms of her feet and below her bikini line. All places that didn't show at the club. Her pimp wanted to abuse her, but not to the point that she couldn't make money for him. She told me that she used to be in love and that this guy used to treat her like something precious. He'd always had other girls, but treated her the best and promised to be with her after he'd made enough money to take care of her, forever. Now, she said she was just too scared to leave. Even though she denied it, it was clear that she still have feeling for this evil piece of shit. It's a long sad story that gets worse. But after that, I just developed an eye for girls like her. Even though they are few and far between, for the most part, even one girl forced into stripping/slavery/sex work is one WAY too many.
  • Dougster
    •
    12 years ago
    Hey, Kate, how about some paragraphs?
  • kittykate
    •
    12 years ago
    I just took some ambien. Feel lucky that I even included periods.
    : )


    But yeah, wow. I do see what you mean Doug!!
  • Dougster
    •
    12 years ago
    Thanks, Kate.

    Yep, some girls do have pimps. Think there were a fair number at Honey's back in the day.

    One guy on the local escort board estimated it as high as 7-8% of all strippers back then. At Honey's I'm sure it was at least that high, nowadays not sure.
  • Dougster
    •
    12 years ago
    I'm also an atheist but think there are definitely moral issues around it. The exploration angle working both ways. I don't completely agree with the whole free will thing either. Not to begin with because it's impossible to define and then doesn't jibe with science even if you could. More practically you see people who think they have free will but are just, unaware, living out chapters in psychology textbooks. Definitely prior yo that knowledge I don't see free will, and then some people's problems are so severe that even with the knowledge they continue to live out the chapter word for word.

    Then there is the angle of would I be okay with a daughter doing it, given what I know about what really goes on?

    One thing I've noticed over the years, however, is how the clubbing has eroded my superego, I know the things above rationally but don't feel them anymore. I'm also completely indifferent to them trying to falsely on hopes I'll feel any compassion for their plights.

    I'd say about 1 in 50 times I meet a stripper now I feel like I'm dealing with a real person as opposed to sex doll for hire. Not sure if that is good or not.
  • JuiceBox69
    •
    12 years ago
    Shit I beieve in the god of Abraham, mosas, Jesus and mohomad and if those bitches don't make me fun I'm going to feel real fuckin bad pussy
  • Tiredtraveler
    •
    12 years ago
    I was aquanted with a girl the worked at Rick's in Seattle and she told me once a girl started there for what ever reason they had her. Between the loans, fines and charges owed to the club they owned many of the girls and the girls had to produce and the only way to produce enough tips was extras.
    I do not doubt that some girls have pimps and are forced (many by circumstance) to work there. Kate I do not understand why you would continue to work at a club that has such high fees and high percentage of forced labor.
    I am a libertarian at heart: Have a set of reasonable rules (over 18, away from residential and school areas, no illegal drugs on property, security to keep order) then live and let live, willing buyer willing seller. If a community at large does not want a club it will not stay in business due to lack of business. Prostitution I do not have a problem with it in the abstract but abusive pimps and patrons should be hung upside down by their testicles until their sack is below their ankles.
  • JuiceBox69
    •
    12 years ago
    Vhs I will tell you y these bitches need a fuckin pimp.like the juiceman....I teach.them how to dance, I buy their cloths, I give them food, I give them.shelter, I give them cars, I fix those goddamn cars to.....I pay for their start up state law cost in the states that.require it that's 500 a pop boy.....they need me from pussies like you that become stalkish....you stalk my bitches I cut your fuckin dick head off pussy.......fianly I take that money and manger that.Shit....you I invest it....I send them to school....open up IRAs for them....invest in stock for them.....I'm the fuckin boss......and no body and I mean nobody can hit that pussy the way I can.....so Vhs that's a fuckin idea of y my hoes need me the fuckin juiceman.......I bet you can't even handel one civilian women let alone all these crazy bitches......pussy
  • Alucard
    •
    12 years ago
    Juice, where are you going to get the money for all that shit. Come on.
  • JuiceBox69
    •
    12 years ago
    Drac baby its simple I take all the fuckin money and pay for all that Shit....see simple my good friend
  • Stiletto25
    •
    12 years ago
    @neon- I would consider myself a religious person. Being involved in the strip club world, though, doesnt bother me.

    Please remember that going into a strip club doesnt mean you arent a good person. There are religious and non religious people who do horrible things. Getting a lapdance isnt one of them. Please be easier on yourself.
  • SofaKing
    •
    12 years ago
    Stiletto is 100% correct. People can go to and work at clubs, and if they treat others as they would want to be treated, then they are way better than priests and ministers who abuse children and scam people.
  • MADDOG_ROMEO
    •
    12 years ago
    Amen, what's so bad about fucking feeling good...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO2_PxQds…
  • Clubber
    •
    12 years ago
    lopaw,

    Couldn't your worry about being "found out" by your SO be construed as quilt?

  • jerikson40
    •
    12 years ago
    "I'm surprised that there are so many posters here that seem to believe that strippers ALWAYS dance consensually"

    So are you saying that because they have a pimp they're forced to do what they're doing? That's what I don't understand. Don't they choose to love the guy and stay with him and put up with his shit? Couldn't they just as easily hop a bus tomorrow and go across the country, and get a job stripping somewhere else and get away from the crap?

    I can't help thinking they want to stay with 'daddy' cuz deep down they think they love him, or need him, or whatever twisted thing they're feeling for him.

    Yeah, it's sad.
  • SofaKing
    •
    12 years ago
    Or else report his no good ass to police. Some piece of trash asshole who is forcing a woman to strip or suck should be prosecuted. Hacing been an assistant prosecuting attorney, many police officers are lazy cowboys who do not want to work up complicted cases. In that case, someone should bust a cap in the pimp, and also send a message to the cowboy police officers/detectives.
  • kittykate
    •
    12 years ago
    U are right, no one needs or wants a fucking pimp. I really can't believe I have to explain this. Go watch msnbc. Every night it seems like they have a new special. Anyway. Most if these pumps find these girls when they are young, make them fall in love, even though they do the sand thing to 10 other girls in the same house, at the same time, whore them out, beat them and control every aspect of their lives. They threaten to kill them if they leave. They threaten and do beat their family members, if the girls even have them. And they pimp them, like this for years. If the girl is in ok shape, by some miracle, they are put into the clubs at 18. These girls are terrified, broken, broke, abused, uneducated people. They can't just say, "later pimp, I'm going to go start my own thing now." They'd be beaten or killed. Happens everyday. This is not consensual. They only way out is to get arrested for a long time or to get so strung out that they are worthless. The girls are totally controlled by violence and drugs. Drugs they were held down and injected with. If u think its easy to walk away from a situation like this, than u are either really dumb or have led a very blessed life.
  • kittykate
    •
    12 years ago
  • DandyDan
    •
    12 years ago
    Kittykate-
    I have no doubt there is human trafficking going on in strip clubs. I have long believed that there are some girls in each club I go to who are sent there by their pimp and it is deplorable. Hell, at one club I used to go to, I personally believed the club owner was the pimp. But at the end of the day, if they are not smart enough to realize they have free will to escape stripping, then that's their own damn fault for not knowing. They are just as guilty as their pimp.

    OTOH, there are plenty of strippers who seem totally cognizant of the fact they don't have to be strippers and they strip anyway.
  • kittykate
    •
    12 years ago
    Dandy! I'm glad you can see what's really going on there. A lot of people can't, I guess. Did you look at any of the links? Girls with pimps are started in the game, at an average age of 12-14. They are pampered at first, then terrorized, until they are so broken, their pimps can trust them to always get the money and be loyal to them. The girl I spoke of, who got her face smashed through the glass table was 11 when she was recuited by her pimp's recuiter. At 16, she tried to run away. She went home and the pimp + his bros, came to her house (these guys always keep records on the girls and their family'/friends, etc) and held a machine gun to her mom head, as her mom was holding my friends baby sister. My friend begged them to stop. She promised to bring the, 30 grand a month, for eternity. After that, she never even though of leaving. When I met her, she was 19. I offered her money. I offered her a place to stay and eat, for free, at my place. I offered to drive her to my parents ranch in TX, where she would be hard to find. She was so messed up, by then. She had PTSD, so bad she could only sleep 20 min in a row. Then she had to listen to find out who was in the house to see if there was anyone there who might rape her. After that, she's sleep 20 more min. This went on all night. She was just broken emotional. She stopped thinking rationally. Another thing her pimp did was to force her to deliver some cocaine for him. He called the cops himself and she was arrests. The guy posted bail and mad another of his girls sign for it. After that , he kept her locked up for 6 months, in the basement and let 8-12 guys sleep with her every night. She missed court. I think this is a big reason why she has never called the police to get away. She doesn't want to go to jail. Her pimp and his friends told her crazy shit about jail, that isnt true. But she's uneducated. She dropped out of shchool in the 5th grade, becuse her pimp convinved her to. Plus, they say that trama stalts emotional, even intellectual gowth. When we hung out. We colored in coloring books, together and she'd tell me how much she loves Belle from Beauty and the Beast. This girl has the mind of an 11 year old. She believes the things her pimps sat. She believes that she can't make it on her own. She believes that she will be anally raped by the guards, before she gets any food, each day. She believes here pimp has her best interest. She's a little girl, abused and terrified of life in the world described by her tormentors and she's terrified for the safety of her mom and her sisters. I think you can see, that it's a lot more complicated than just leaving.
  • georgmicrodong
    •
    12 years ago
    DandyDan: While it's true that they do in fact have the freedom to leave whenever they want, one or more of these things are also true in some cases:

    They believe they can't leave:
    - because they will be killed if they try.
    - because some family member will be hurt if they try.
    - because they have no prospects for any other line of work.
    - because they are addicted to whatever the pimp has hooked them on.

    In some cases, as has recently been related to me, the pimp has actually provided some useful help and training. Sure, it's directly related to helping maximize profits for the pimp, but it's also perceived by the girl that he's actually helping *her*, and so she sees it as a benefit.

    There are also the girls who think they are (or might actually be) in love with their pimps because they rescued them from some situation, or gave them a place to live when no one else would, or makes sure their kid gets to the doctor when needed, or something of that nature.

    To someone on the *inside*, the degradation, intimidation, manipulation, deception and mental and emotional control aren't as obvious as it is to those of us on the inside.

    It's kind of like religion. Those who adhere to one religion or another don't realize how they've been brainwashed since birth.
  • Dougster
    •
    12 years ago
    Also Stockholm Syndrome.
  • Clubber
    •
    12 years ago
    I hate to say this, but I think Dougster pretty much hit the nail on the head!
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