Is hobbying or mongering unlearnable?
Book Guy
I write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
I consider the presence of strip clubs in my life to be a mixed blessing, at best.
On the one hand, I like having access to women who are hot enough to turn me on. I don't think it would be a very happy Book Guy if he had to live a life without contacting the young female spirit, as it impedes upon my mind via the various operative senses. So to speak.
On the other hand, it takes up time money energy. There's a very hot young woman who works at the dry cleaners here, but I don't want to try to date her because I have such a perverted store of secrecies behind me, in my closet. It's like I'm living a double life, and I'm worried that if I do interact with her, she'll expect me to be a normal guy. Also, at some point, I'll accidentally expect her to be a stripper. Like, why isn't she grinding on my crotch while we're waiting for our salads? Oh, right, I'm not in the VIP of a STRIP club ... Why isn't she approaching me for a date? For a dollar? For a dance? Oh, right, I'm supposed to do that. My who-is-supposed's will get mixed up.
And more, on this second hand, I'm worried that I can't give up strip-clubbing. I'm sure a "normal" girl could learn to appreciate some degree of horniness, even dirtiness, from her man. But if I were to date this dry cleaning chick (riiiight like THAT's going to happen) she'd only be able to tolerate SO much monger / hobby behavior.
Maybe she would even let me have a little bit of it: for example, I could go, I could look, I might even could get a lapper in the girlfriend's presence. But could I maintain my current level of strip-club dependency, and solicit for total full-bore extra service? Every week? While sloppy drunk?
This is all hypothetical. But the bottom question remains: can mongering be left behind? Once a monger, always a monger? Or, can a man change his ways if he so chooses? I'd like to change. I'd rather be less unhappy. If finding a nice girl to settle down with, would make me happier, to the extent that I wouldn't WANT to go to strip clubs or get extras, then why shouldn't I do that? But I don't think I can. It's like Coca-Cola and Jeeps. Once the natives see what Western society is like, they never want to hike through the bush spitting darts at frogs ever again ...
On the one hand, I like having access to women who are hot enough to turn me on. I don't think it would be a very happy Book Guy if he had to live a life without contacting the young female spirit, as it impedes upon my mind via the various operative senses. So to speak.
On the other hand, it takes up time money energy. There's a very hot young woman who works at the dry cleaners here, but I don't want to try to date her because I have such a perverted store of secrecies behind me, in my closet. It's like I'm living a double life, and I'm worried that if I do interact with her, she'll expect me to be a normal guy. Also, at some point, I'll accidentally expect her to be a stripper. Like, why isn't she grinding on my crotch while we're waiting for our salads? Oh, right, I'm not in the VIP of a STRIP club ... Why isn't she approaching me for a date? For a dollar? For a dance? Oh, right, I'm supposed to do that. My who-is-supposed's will get mixed up.
And more, on this second hand, I'm worried that I can't give up strip-clubbing. I'm sure a "normal" girl could learn to appreciate some degree of horniness, even dirtiness, from her man. But if I were to date this dry cleaning chick (riiiight like THAT's going to happen) she'd only be able to tolerate SO much monger / hobby behavior.
Maybe she would even let me have a little bit of it: for example, I could go, I could look, I might even could get a lapper in the girlfriend's presence. But could I maintain my current level of strip-club dependency, and solicit for total full-bore extra service? Every week? While sloppy drunk?
This is all hypothetical. But the bottom question remains: can mongering be left behind? Once a monger, always a monger? Or, can a man change his ways if he so chooses? I'd like to change. I'd rather be less unhappy. If finding a nice girl to settle down with, would make me happier, to the extent that I wouldn't WANT to go to strip clubs or get extras, then why shouldn't I do that? But I don't think I can. It's like Coca-Cola and Jeeps. Once the natives see what Western society is like, they never want to hike through the bush spitting darts at frogs ever again ...
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26 comments
Seriously, now ... don't you think those characteristics are as much a function of THE FACT THAT WE'RE WRITING ON THE INTERNET as anything else? Eh, wuddever ...
If you haven't already done so I suggest that you join a club or two that's in line with your main interests, that way you'll meet other people with interests similar to your own, which makes getting to know them much easier. I'd also suggest that you try dating as often as possible, even if you aren't particularly attractied to the girls you take out. It's good practice and a good opportunity to meet other women.
BTW, I looked up your reviews and was surprised to see only 3 of Florida clubs. From what you've said I assumed that you live in Florida, is that not correct?
I still want to nix strip-clubbing and patronizing extra service from my life, but I also think that I want access to attractive women for sexual and romantic encounters. I have this fantasy, that IF ONLY I could somehow "land" a really hot woman as a partner for dating -- or, more accurately, get into a COMMUNITY of potential dates who were all hot women -- then I wouldn't "need" to go to strip clubs. I'd be happy enough in "real" life not to require my monger / hobby / extra-service outlets.
This is still a fantasy. I sometimes actually take steps toward making it a reality. There's some good advice in this thread, in fact.
It's always been my observation that the best way to find a girl is to stop looking. The guys who seem to do the best also seem to try the least. Desparation is a turn-off for most girls. Just be active, be yourself and do the things you enjoy doing (and don't sit at home dreaming about it) and eventually some girl will catch you. If that's what you want. And be willing to overlook some flaws - waiting for perfection is a prescription for failure. Be willing to date girls you aren't strongly attracted to, it's a good learning experience and can be a lot of fun too. And you might find that attraction grows as you get to know them better.
One other suggestion - have lots of female friends and spend time with them. Aside from being fun, it helps you meet other girls and makes you seem more desirable. Other girls will find you more attractive when you're in the company of an attractive girl.
And above all, always be yourself - unless you're just looking to get laid, the worst thing that can possibly happen is to have some girl fall for a role you're playing. That happened to me once and it was probably the most painful experience of my life.
Your complaint seems to be that you can't face life without strip clubs. I believe I can but I don't know about unlearning it. You can take me out of the strip clubs, but can you take the strip clubs out of me? Do I even want that? Not really, I just miss some of the instincts I had before that my stripper experiences have smothered.
Its like my dad told me.. he brung me up on his knee and said, "If you want to catch a woman you're gonna need one of three things. You're either going to need to be incredibly rich.. or incredibly good-looking.. or incredibly funny. Son, now listen close cuz I want to teach you a few jokes..."
Oh don't get me wrong.. women folk love me. I'm so "funny" and I'm such a "great" guy. Wow, few guys are as "nice" as I am, and I make such a great "friend". Meanwhile there's zero play. Makes a person want to invite Mr. Bullet into Mr. Brainpan sometimes. :)
Meanwhile, as well, there is the strip-clubbing experience. Not that I expect it to provide the same things, but I do note (and this is the root of my dissatisfaction) that the women are at least CAPABLE of acting in a pleasing manner.
But as a more important point -- what do you mean by "put in the time and effort"? I think I made it pretty clear I didn't know how. I don't think it's lack of effort as much as lack of effectiveness. You've said, that many guys find it easy. I disagree. I don't know ANYONE who finds women to give ready access. It takes some kind of, erm, "game" or "skill" that I don't have.
In fact, there are whole websites devoted to this idea. I used to follow them quite closely, but it got to where I was sure I was reading about it on the internet as a fantasy -- like going to a strip club -- but that it wouldn't ever actually turn into reality. Your thoughts? Can a good-looking average-height guy actually have a fulfilling love life? Or should I give up now? Where and how does one learn "game"? Should I start hanging with the ghetto homies in my neighborhood more? I dunno ...
If you're tall, good looking, and have an outgoing personality, attracting "real" girls is fairly easy. But if you aren't like that, and many of us aren't, it takes an awful lot of time and effort to attract attractive girls. Some guys conclude that it isn't worth the effort.
First, you're right, it isn't SEEING hot women in real life (outside of strip clubs) that I find a
rare event. Actually, it's befriending and dating hot-enough women, that is the rarity. I do
visually locate them, quite regularly, at the mall and in the grocery store. Not as regularly as I
would like, and almost never among my circle of friends. The few (three, as enumerated above!) whom
I actually met and spoke with, in a "safe" environment where dating might have happened, are such a
small number when compared with both (a) all the other fat slag females I meet and (b) the women I
have opportunity to date. So you've rightly redirected my thought, to the idea that there are plenty
of hot women IN EXISTENCE, but I'll still stick with my complaint that I DON'T KNOW THEM.
I'm glad to hear, that my "unnaturally high standards" are not unreasonable. I went through a long
period of trying to "learn" to change my "I'd do her" percentages -- to the great detriment of my
self-esteem, and the wellbeing of relationships with nice but not physically appealing partners. You
can't really go through the whole "I really should find her hot but I don't so what's wrong with
me?" mental excoriation in total secret, a girlfriend's bound to figure it out; and it continually
surprised me at what a bad job -- from gym attendance, fashion and make-up, and OUTGOING ATTITUDE
about sexuality -- these civilian girlfriends were doing. I'd give a few pointers, but eventually
give up, since the bridge to cross was SOOOO great. I guess I hung with too many geeky socially
restricted people. Chicks who showed off their worst assets, and proudly. Made me feel like they
weren't really concerned about my needs and desires. Not good for the intimacy / care factor.
Maybe my only real complaint is about the "approachable" factor. I always describe it as my lack of
ACCESS or my lack of CHOICE in my life. I am happy never to have married one of the women I thought
of as "not hot enough," although for the last one -- from whom I broke up about three years ago,
after about a 1.5 year committed relationship -- I fully realized I was leaving behind love, care,
respect, concern, and one of the warmest fuzziest feelings I'd ever had for a fellow human, when I
eventually let her go because her ass is huge. Shallow? Yes. Changeable? No. Truly me, I'm sorry to
say. I need to be blind, I guess. It depresses me.
I'm not so sure strip clubs have warped my outlook, as you put it, into expecting women to be young
and unapologetically slutty. I think I STARTED OUT that way and was simply consistently disappointed
by my real-world options. I come into this thing as an adult. Why must the women I date come into it
as fawning, cooing, mewling toddlers? Yes, I want to put my ying-yang into your hoo-hoo, and don't
act surprised or childish about it, dangit! No, I don't want to see your tampon string, or smooth my
cheek over painful crotch razor stubble, or smell your farts, and why should I have to explain those
facts? Well, really, I'd put up with all of that -- heck, they put up with the same from me -- if
only there were some degree of RESPECT. Like, "Honey, I didn't shave my crotch, and I know you like
it the other way, and it IS sexy shaved, but I had a big project at work, I'll get to it next week,
OK?" That would have been fine. Instead, my experience is more like, "Men! Why do they require that
I actually DO SOMETHING NICE for them? They're such SHITS!" And this from a woman who doesn't look
good enough to get me a boner? Thanks but no thanks ...
I'm surprised, Chandler, when you say, "When I hit on strippers." By this, do you mean that you
engage in consensual non-paid "relationship style" interactions with them? Take hot younger girls to
the mall, or to the Bennigans, and call them on holidays, and maybe give their kids teddy bears?
Watch "America's Most Wanted" and make fajitas at home? Fly kites on windy days? With a woman who is
young, but sexually adventuresome, and hot looking, and interested in you? You're my hero ... I want
your life ... :( ... Not necessarily that I need a STRIPPER per se to do this with me. I understand
that some men are excited by the idea that their girlfriends are stewardesses. Ahem. Flight
attendants. Not that they look good, or that they suck cock like a hoover; but that they work for
Lufthansa. Odd. To me, the job title isn't a priority, but the looks and attitude are.
What I want now is prognosis for change. I'm 40, no I don't live in a monastery, and yes I'm lonely.
I go to strip clubs for the hot girls, but I know darn well that I'm unlikely to get a date from
one. It's weird to me, really, how limited in access I've felt viable women were to me throughout my adult life. In High School I dated the girl who went on to be the homecoming queen. And most of my ex-girlfriends are what many men would term "hotties." Just not for me. They're wonky, less than proportional, somehow not turning me on. Generally, it's one part or another that's too big. I personally have always been somewhat attractive to women at the outset -- I think that's a combination of physical fitness, an above-average face, and way too much intelligence in the form of verbal wit and conversational electricity -- but I find that as I get "sensitive" with them, they start to play the games that I don't know how to navigate. "No" means "yes," except when it means "no," and you're supposed to act aloof and disinterested, except when you're supposed to act interpersonally committed and interested. I never know which is which, and get it wrong in both directions. I can't tell you how many formerly-hot chicks asked me, at college and HS reunions, "why didn't it work out between us? I really would have liked to have dated you." Looking at their saggy tits and moustachioed upper lips, it was all I could do to not blurt out evilly, "Well then why did you say a loud, rude, and unequivocal NO when I asked you to the dance? It's your damn fault, and now you're not desirable any more, so don't blame me for the fact that you wasted our opportunity."
But that's part of the story of my life. Mistakes made by others have major impact on me. Hmm. Depressing. OK, enough of this. Just thought I'd ramble for a bit. I do so wish mongering were un-learn-able, but I'm worried that it's not.
I doubt if your high standards explain it. I'm very particular myself. Our "I'd do her" percentages in strip clubs are about in line. So I'm not sure what to make of your "one in seven years" woes, because my problem is seeing too many women I'd like to do. Are you sure you're not living, like, in a monastery?
And are you saying you can't meet and attract women, or just that the women you get aren't hot enough now that you've had a taste of strippers? I think that's pretty common. A lot of married guys for whom sex with the wife is an old, grim memory use strippers as a substitute and can't be bothered to make the effort at home anymore. Where strip clubs have warped my outlook is that I expect women to be young and unapologetically slutty. I've always had hot girlfriends (and wives), ever since grade school, but some romances started out innocently then heated up over time. Not anymore. Unless she's available right now, I just can't be bothered. I've forgotten how it was possible back when I was that other person who didn't know about strippers. And because I no longer have any interest in women anywhere near my age, my opportunities to meet and approach eligible women without freaking them out in a major public disturbance are becoming more limited. Fortunately, my age isn't nearly the issue when I hit on strippers. I just wish more of them were as hot as all the girls I see in regular bars, dance clubs, stores, college campuses, everywhere.
Yoda, I'm full of issues, I freely admit!
But dudes who DO get pussy in the "normal" course of their lives have, it seems to me, a bit of a Marie Antoinette attitude towards those of us who don't. "Just get a normal girlfriend" and you won't have to "substitute" strip clubbing. But HOW do you get a "normal" girlfriend? I'm amazed at dudes who do that, and at dudes who EXTEND that ability out of real-day life and into the club. Heck, there are men here who report regularly GETTING TO KNOW and even BEFRIENDING hot women via the strip club where those girls work. Dating them. Having sex with them. Let them eat cake.
Much discussion of these issues in the real world kind of goes along a matrix that has two poles -- "real" pussy versus "fake" pussy; a.k.a., sometimes you get it from a girlfriend who also knows your address and phone number; other times, so the matrix goes, you get it by pay, by fantasy from strip clubs, by those non-average methods.
For me, however, one of those poles simply never exists. I haven't ever had sufficient capacity to catch a girlfriend with whom sex was a viable option, so I have always had to think in terms of other relief valves. Sometimes I worry that my discovery of strip clubbing, plus mongering, plus hobbying, plus plus plus extras, means that I now have a "crutch" that prevents me from developing real social skills, primarily the capacity to attract a woman whom I would want as a girlfriend, partner, wife?, lover. Then, other times, I feel that strip clubbing is just, as someone has put it, the "normal strangeness" underneath it all for me. We all have odd proclivities. I don't understand people who work on power boats all the damned time.
It all comes down to ACCESS to attractive women. I have, I'm learning from discussions here, a very very high threshhold for "attractive enough", below which most women just don't turn me on at all. I've had girlfriends to whom I simply was not attracted, even though for other men they would have been very hot, or at least mildly hot enough to establish a relationship and be HAPPY with it. Many of these girlfriends were friendly (though rather timid, sweet, geeky) people, and I had (and often still have) decent friendships with them. But I didn't WANT to go to bed with them. They were fat, or hairy, or lazy and inexperienced about sex, or just ... well ... ugly.
On the contrary to those people, then, there's also the type of girl like the one I'm describing at the dry cleaner's (just an example; don't think I'm holding out some kind of candle for her and her alone). I can get a boner looking at her. I WANT to get a boner for her. And I know I'm not suffering from erectile dysfunction, because SHE appears good enough to make me function!
I also have that experience in strip clubs with about 10% of the dancers overall. For a more specific example, at Platinum Plus in Memphis, there will be as many as 40% of the girls, on a good night, who are "hot enough" for me. If you know Lucy or Justice, that's my type. In its best days, Mons Venus offered about 75% (though now, according to reports, it might be down to 10%). But in REAL LIFE, I see only about 1 girl every seven years, or so, whom I'd LIKE to bone. I have met three and had conversations with them, total, ever. I have dated none. I'm 40 years old and have a "normal" life -- I don't live on a ranch in Wyoming, I haven't spent a lot of time in jail, I have both eyes and all four limbs and don't require medical assistance to use the potty. :)
But meeting women I want to bone? Almost never! I don't know how I "caught" this "disease" and whether it's something to be proud of or unhappy about. But you have to admit, it puts a serious constriction on the usual suggestion about, getting "normal" sex as opposed to "strange" sex. My whole matrix is off.
Oh, and about the terms "Hobbying" and "Mongering." I disagree with some here. I think a whoremonger, or punter, might use the term "to monger" for his activity -- engaging escorts in paid sexual activity. Often overseas with members of less privileged cultures thanks to the exchange rate. But "to hobby" to me is a wider category, that includes not only that type of mongering but also just going about your sexual behaviors as though they were A HOBBY. In other words, as abstracted and dissociated from your romantic and social life. In other words, in a strip club.
At least, that's how I was using those words above. I readily agree, I'm both a strip-club-goer, and a hobbyist, and a monger. Where those categories overlap is really beside the point, for my own situation. Some guys might want to make an extremely rigid distinction, but wherever there's line-drawing (in my experience) there's usually also denial about line-crossing. I cross 'em all!
But to answer the question, I used to go clubbing at least once a week, but it's been nearly a year since my last visit. Several things happened to change my habits. First and probably most important, my ATF spoiled me, clubbing just isn't as much fun for me since she quit. Second, since I retired I don't travel nearly as much and almost never alone anymore, so the clubbing oppportunities now are severely limited. Plus I don't have as much extra cash laying around as I used to. Plus I discovered a new hobby that gives me much the same pleasure at far lower cost - getting massages, the legitimate kind. I'll probably visit a club again one of these days, but I'm in no hurry.
My take on this is that if you enjoy clubbing and can afford it, do so. But when it stops being fun or is costing too much, it's time to quit. Or at least to cut back a lot. I don't worry too much about how much I've spent - if I hadn't spent it on clubbing I'd have spent it on some other leisure activity. You have to have some fun in yuor life.
This is one reason I say don't go for extras or OTC or go much further than petting the kitty for ITC extras (my personal limits of comfort and judicious behavior), it confuses the issue. It helps keep the clubs an occasional indulgence rather than a substitute for dating if you still get sex the way other men do, OTC, by begging. The other reason for my limits can be found in Shadowcats DATY post.
I've also been at a point where I'm considering how much I like the hobby. I keep saying that I'll go to some good LD clubs, have some fun on a road trip or two, maybe get a new fav, and that'll re-vitalize my interest. Then I consider that maybe I don't want to re-vitalize my interest. At present I spend about 1 day a month in a closeby club and usually spend less than $200. Not too bad, but consider what $200/month can buy. That is 15 new DVD's a month. That is (most of) a new Toyota Carolla over the course of 5 years. Seems very wasteful sometimes, but then again I don't need a new car and I have Netflix, and someone has to support single moms...