Racist SC's

Well, I sure know one club where it doesn't: Bogart's Lounge "The Friendliest Place in Town."

There was a VERY LARGE African-American male who used a walker and had to come in sideways through the back hallway/entrance. He tipped a petite (4'10" and thin) white dancer during Finale time, and sure enough, she led him across the bar and up into VIP, albeit at .00000000000022 mph. The guy delighted as he passed, "I'm going to get me some p*ssy!" I later talked to the gal and told her I'd like to see the video of her and him. [That guy had to be 400+ pounds, maybe 500...]

OTC Gal told me that St. James would run off gang members. Even though she usually backed criminals, thugs, and gang members, she was glad that St. James ran them off because they weren't spenders and they affected her bottom line.

Yes. I'd be surprised if there weren't.

I'm over 60 years old and retired. I was told at the door that I could not enter the Coliseum in Detroit because customers were not allowed to wear hooded sweatshirts--to keep out gang bangers. Not that it mattered but the sweatshirt was Royal Blue and a Christmas gift from my son who bought it at Brooks Brothers where he worked in the summer. I asked the bouncer to show me the posted sign on the dress code. There was none. I offered to take it off and the bouncer said that would solve the problem. Well that's all I had on topside. I promised I would not go on stage if he would let me check my hooded sweatshirt. He was taken aback. Laughing, he told me to keep my shirt on and grab a seat. If I were White would this have happened?

Some clubs will charge Black customers for a booth, but let the White guys seat themselves. Some White dancers will ignore Black customers all day long. And some clubs have a low limit on the number of Black dancers the will "hire." No more than one or two per shift.

..they will..

Is it a race issue or a class issue. I sincerely doubt a professional black man wearing Abercrombie and Fitch would be turned away.

There was a kid hanging out in the parking lot of the club @ my last visit. From a distance he looked like Kirk Hammett from Metallica. When I took a closer look, it turned out the kid was some weird hybrid of goth and Juggalo(Insane Clown Posse fan). He had one contact lens that was had a vertical pupil. Lots of ugly jewelry around his neck. Trenchcoat decorated with studs and spikes. And he was white. He told me the club wouldn't let him in becaue they were "anti-Juggalo".

So what's up with that?

What's up with that? All rational people are anti-Juggalo. Being Juggalo is prima facia evidence of insanity.

I think thats great that SJ ran off the gang members. I really think gang members were the undoing of Ricks South. It would really piss me off as a paying coustomer to see those bums in the club knowing their only reason for being there was to sell the dancers drugs.

Some strippers are really stupid in going with gang members. The only future those guys have is prison or the grave. A lot of them don't even have the IQ to keep a job. I used to see a gal that bragged her BF was a gangster. When he beat her up so bad she spent some time in ICU and she almost died it stopped but she would still defend him at times. "Its not really his fault bc he is bipolar," she would say. There are some really sick bitches out there.

Superdude---None of the clubs I visit have a seating fee. They all have cover, though. If I paid cover somewhere and then was expected to pay for seating, I think I'd flip out.

I have to say that of the clubs I visit regularly, I think I've only seen three or four black dancers total. Favorite club doesn't have any. Well, every so often one will show up but they don't last long. I don't think the clientele likes black girls, as a rule.


I know one dancer who absolutely will not do a lap dance for a black customer. I've seen her turn them down cold. Of course, she's very Southern. I mean, she dances to country music and carries a knife in her boot. You would think the Confederate flag bandana she carries would send a message. LOL

Cheetahs Vegas is much more of a locals club than it used to be, with no shortage of "boyz from the hood" hanging out. My ATF worked there, now that she's my former ATF I won't be back as it's a fairly seedy customer base in the evenings, and not nearly as many good looking dancers as there used to be either. I think most of the dancers make little money most nights, but that's a widespread problem in Vegas and elsewhere these days.

"Some White dancers will ignore Black customers all day long."

That is their right. To say otherwise is to condone rape.

I'm continually disappointed at the racism in Michigan. I had no idea that I was moving to North Alabama. I thought Ann Arbor would be progressive at least when it comes to race. I was wrong.

As far as the clubs being racist, I don't see it (of course a white 45yo guy is pretty blind to this). I do see it in the dancers. I've felt more than once that a dancer approached me instead of the black guy sitting next to me. When they leave, they don't move on to the him.

Philip... dude... Ann Arbor is progressive by any measure... where is it better... Boston? New York? D.C.? L.A.? Chicago? Give me a break. If you think Ann Arbor is racist it's more a reflection of the crowd you hang with. Of course there are racists everywhere, but that is not the general culture in Ann Arbor.

That said, the metro Detroit area is the most segregated city in the USA. Lots of reasons for that, starting with the little incendiary event in 1967. As a white man, I do not feel particularly welcome in Detroit. At the same time, I think young black men in particular have a lot of legitimate reasons to be mad at "the Man".

The clubs I visit in the Detroit area have black dancers and black customers, but definitely in the minority. Is there racism? I'm sure. I had one dancer tell me she was a little racist, but she said it was based on the percentage of bad experiences she had in the vip with black men. She pointed out a few in the room... "see that guy, the one all the girls are ignoring? His finger wants to go where it shouldn't, and it doesn't matter how many times you tell him not to." I don't think that is racist at all; the racism comes in if you then generalize that to all black men.

There was a black dancer at Leggs who I later saw at Bogarts after the Leggs fire. She told me she had trouble getting dances from any of the white guys. That was pretty shocking, because she had an incredible powerful athletic body - her body was actually a work of art. I would have taker her upstairs myself right then and there except I was waiting on my fav. Never saw her again after that.

There was also a daytime manager at H8N who was fired for pulling a bunch of stunts... one of which was charging the black dancers a much higher tip-out than the white dancers in an effort to drive them out. But hey, he did get fired (although maybe not for that specifically).

In general, I'd say in the Detroit clubs I visit it is not unusual to see black men in the vip with white dancers, or white men with black dancers. I don't think there is any institutional racism. Everyone seems to get in the door, unless they are obviously quarrelsome. Once inside, the choices people make may be motivated by racism or just "preference". Probably some of both.

It works both ways. A white guy going into an all-black club causes problems. I've read about a few clubs like this on tuscl.

If a dancer doesn't want to be intimate with a black man, that's her choice. It's her choice for whom she dances, and no amount of political correctness can change that. Doing a lap dance isn't the same as serving chicken wings.

There's an aspect of trust that's necessary, and if a dancer doesn't feel safe with a customer then she should trust her judgement.

I've had dances with black dancers, mostly out of curiousity. The ones I chose were petite and didn't have the stereotypical "bootylicious" bodies. I found them attractive, except for the hair. Neither could afford weaves so they just had chemically straightened hair, which didn't move. I like when hair whips around. But the dances were fine otherwise.

The big Tampa clubs(Mons, 2001, Penthouse) I've visited were overwhelmingly white, both in talent and customers. I think there are black clubs, hispanic clubs, and white clubs there. The black club is on MLK---I doubt too many white guys venture down there.

My fav club has several white dancers who are in relationships with black guys. They tend to gravitate toward the occasional black customers.

if you read my review on Centerfold Lounge in detroit then you will know
why i now avoid clubs that have a 98% white clientele/dancer ratio.

because of my size and race i am discriminated against at any club i go
thats outside the inner city area of detroit

at centerfolds i got ignored like the plague by all the dancers, i know
that its their right to choose who they feel comfortable with but
my major pet peeve is being lump into a category of something that i am not, but its ok because i know that there are other places where im not
judged but it would be nice if they at least open their minds up a bit
it don't matter what race the customer is im sure that the white customers have caused just as much trouble for some dancers in suburban clubs.

so if they are gonna judge me then fuck them clubs, i will stay in the city where i belong.

so

sorry for the double post but i forgot to mention that i would be giving Bogart's and Henry VIII a try but as for all the other white clientele/dancer clubs, i will just have to avoid going since i know i will just be discriminated against.

It is a mark of progress that we can discuss this openly and without name calling. It's also a mark of progress that some of us will ignore racism and spend our money where we are welcome, given the wide range of choices and opportunities. Sadly, this racism will always be with us in the work place, professions, small businesses, major institutions and stripclubs. We just work, every more diligently, on minimizing the impact.

The Columbia Platinum Plus page says that ethnicity is white. It used to say mixed. 2 years ago they went on a program to eliminate drug traffickers. They used racial profiling. They would not let any new black dancers in. Black customers that looked like "the boyz in the hood" were denied admittance. The dress code is still in effect. But they are letting more black dancers work there. I have 2 favorites that are black. I would guess that non white dancers is now around 5%. The money got to them. Btw they have a new web site.

The only club I am familiar with where race seems to be an issue is the Lamplighter in Ottawa, Illinois. But while they take in any customer, they also have a rule where rap is prohibited, so all the dancers are white and I don't recall ever seeing a black man there. But it's a rural area with a lot of rednecks. I would suspect some rural strip clubs may have racism issues, but then again, I've also been to some very rural clubs where the majority of dancers are black.

"rap is prohibited"

doesn't mean they are racist, but that they have good taste

Now come on guys, I think most of us would agree with mitcv on this one, though in general most people rip on him. Racism is an emdemic issue no matter where you go. As Jmoney007, says, I have seen that treatment he mentions at Centerfold, while on the other hand as CTQWERTY noted at Bogarts, no one seems to care. One club on Eight Mile had issues with black guys, so for a long time they definitely were discrinating against them. I tend to think it's a gang issue also, where the clubs don't want the bangers in the finer establishments

It's definitely not just a race issue. I've been in clubs where thuggish black guys caused trouble. And since blacks (in this area) all seem to follow a thuggish fashion trend, it's simple to solve the problem. Discourage black customers. It's not fair, but it's prudent.

I doubt, as I've said, that a black guy dressed in Abercrombie would be turned away.

stripclubspy,

As far as your perceptions of my friends, how about we get a drink at Bogarts sometime? You will be able to better judge the character of the friends I keep by my character.

I can't speak for the cities you mention but I have lived in Lincoln NE, Kansas City MO, Denver CO, Portland OR, and Lacey (Olympia) WA. Ann Arbor ranks second to KC on my short list for worst race environment.

One of the problems in A2 is the UM students. Since UM has lower the bar for black students, other students assume all blacks are there because of lowered standards. Those perceptions came from a student that worked with two black students in a lab. He gave a lot of insight to what black student s go through. As my friend said, one of the kids was valedictorian but many on campus think he's not qualified to be there.

Now I applaud UM for trying to bring more Detroit inner city type kids to campus but I deplore the method. UM should be on the ground in the grade schools, middle schools, and high schools. They should be connecting with the parents and the student as well as facility and staff. Raise the expectation and the goals of the community. Be a part of helping those people meet those goals. Help more high school seniors achieve the entrance requirements.

Probably the most disheartening event was some professional people at the UM hospital who didn't know I was in earshot. It wasn't off color jokes, just pure hatred. I couldn't believe it, I was just so set back by it. It was a twilight zone moment.

Now I don't believe A2 has a horrible unsolvable race problem. A2 is far from that it isn't nearly as progressive as Olympia or even Lincoln with regard to race. I guess the small pockets I've seen have been so blatant and from young people.

I don't have the prospective to understand why like you do. I've only been in the area 10 years and was 2 when the '67 riots took place.

-------------
> she had an incredible powerful athletic body - her body was actually a work of art

I think I know of this work of art of which you speak. I only saw the girl I'm thinking of once at Bogarts, maybe a year or so ago. If I remember right, she was wearing a Scottish tartan skirt. Just beautiful, and I too regret not getting a dance as I was preoccupied.

I'm Asian, so it's no problem for me since we're stereotyped as big tippers. I try to re-enforce it as much as I can :).

Actually, the only time I've experienced racism is when Asian strippers ignore me. They tell me that Asian guys don't usually go for Asian strippers. I tell them I'm in equal-opportunity pervert.

I go to a few clubs. The smaller clubs seem to be mostly white in customers and dancers. Another club that is a little bigger is like night and day. During the day there is usually one black dancer and very few, if any black customers. After 7 or 8pm, more black dancers show up and soon afterwards the black customers follow.

My favorites are white, I can't help it. But I will say I just found a black dancer that is absolutely beautiful. And I want to find a way to make her a favorite also. Her shifts do not coincide with my visit times, I just lucked out one night.

PAS-
I can believe that Ann Arbor, or the University of Michigan, is racist. The dirty little secret about most colleges, and college towns, is that all of them basically practice segregation. It's not like people go out of their way to be racists, but at least within my college experience, which was between 1991 and 1996, they always tried to preach diversity. Well, you can't have diversity without separation.

I also find it surprising you think Lincoln, NE is progressive, because all I ever hear about it is that the cops in Lincoln are racists.

I'm a regular at PP and can vouch that a good number of dancers will avoid black guys, but at a club this size you will still have a good time and just use the equal-opp dancers as a way to show the others the money they're missing out on. Like Philip A Stein mentioned, there's dancers that go to every guy around the club and get turned down but never go to any of the black guys. I think it's stupid economics but whatever their personal preference is, forget about them. Just like we as customers can choose whichever dancer we want -- I get annoyed once in a while by a black dancer that gets upset that I don't want VIP from her. Just because I decline you doesn't mean I don't get dances from black girls, I'm just not interested in you.

As far as clubs themselves being racist, never seen it. Management, bouncers, doormen have always been cool at all the clubs I go to. I will say contrary to what someone else said, white customers get great attention at all the local black clubs here. My guess is the dancers figure if he's in there then he appreciates black women so they spend time with those white guys.

The UofM narrative of Philip A. Stein hits home. My daughter just graduated from Michigan in May, 2009. A lot of her time was spent avoiding racial stuff from both sides. She joined Delta Gamma, a white sorority, was elected to an officer position, all the while being trashed by Black women--who never offered her the opportunity to pledge Alpha Kappa Alpha, her mother's sorority. She finished Grosse Pointe South High School with honors, but was told she got into Michigan on lowered standards. My son transferred from Hampton University a HBCU because of class prejudice. He got sick and tired of students and faculty treating him differently because his background was upper middle class and he didn't swagger like a thug.
Now, at UMASS--Boston, it is assumed that because he transferred from a Black college he was admitted on lower standards, despite finishing Grosse Pointe South with 3.0 GPA and a varsity swimming letter. I have told my children, now adults, that there will always be a segment (how large?) of the American population that secretly or publicly believes that Black people just don't fit or belong in this country and our entry into elite institutions, professions, Fortune 500 leadership or the White House must be the result of lowered standards or some politcal abberation. I have no desire to distract this board with some Black History Month lecture, but I do know that honest opposition to Obama's policies is one thing. Demoninzing him for racial reasons is an entirely different thing. And, yes, dancers avoiding a Black customer, dressed in a suit and tie with $500.00 cash to blow is their loss. I've been that guy.

"If I paid cover somewhere and then was expected to pay for seating, I think I'd flip out"

...then don't try to sit in any VIP seating areas in any downtown Montreal strip clubs...because you have to pay (and usually tip in addition) to sit there. No matter though, since there is almost always plenty of free seating that's closer to the stage anyway.

-------------------------------------------
"To say otherwise is to condone rape."

Holy shit...like all combos of white women & black men lead to rape...my goodness...what a racist statement, from a well-known racist of course...ugh...
----------------------

"Well, you can't have diversity without separation."

Huh??

MG---that's not what he meant. Forcing a dancer to give a lapdance to a customer with whom she does not comfortable IS a sort of rape. If she chooses to even though she doesn't like blacks(and does it just for the money) that's one thing. But making it policy that a dancer has to do it for anyone who asks is quite another.

They have the right to choose.

"Holy shit...like all combos of white women & black men lead to rape...my goodness...what a racist statement, from a well-known racist of course...ugh..."

haha...pathetic..as usual...

"I've been that guy."

let's throw a pity party...

This is a good discussion. My compliments to all who have contributed their experiences and insights. I would only add that there is clearly a distinction to be made between racist policies in a club and individual racism between dancers and customers (which often runs both ways). It is also important to distinguish between racial prejudice (as in "I would never get a dance from a Black girl") and one's taste in dancers ("Black girls just don't do it for me"). I have noted that several posts also interject both age and class into the mix. The perception of young, urban, African-American males as "gang-bangers" and "thugs" is not without some valid reasons, but often leads clubs to adopt draconian dress codes and racial profiling policies based strictly on appearence. This is ironic, since we have all noted at one time or another that the most disrespectful douchebags in some clubs are the groups of clean-cut, college-aged white boys who piss off everyone with their rudeness, poor tipping, and drunken frat-boy antics. In many ways, the combination of young, low-income, and Black leads to unfair stereotyping, especially in upscale clubs. The individual incidents of racial discrimination leveled on middle-aged, middle-class gentlemen of color are ignorant and unfortunate, but also part of the human factor that makes going to SC's so interesting. Expecting all dancers to perform the same why for everyone irregardless of their personal tastes is not only unrealistic, but takes a bunch of the fun out of finding and enjoying the "special" ones who like us better than the other guys (for whatever reasons)!

"that's not what he meant."

Of course it is...just look at this guy's history when it comes to racial remarks!

Case in point from this very thread:

A fellow black strip club patron bares quite a bit about his experiences with racial discrimination in SCs, and this Right-wing Troll responds with:

"let's throw a pity party"

PLEASE!

"Forcing a dancer to give a lapdance to a customer with whom she does not comfortable IS a sort of rape."

Really?? An unwanted LD = rape now?? Please, you know how many ugly, nasty, smelly, old customers an average stripper does LDs with in her lifetime? Come on now...you're over-reaching here...

"But making it policy that a dancer has to do it for anyone who asks is quite another."

No one that I can see (including me!) is saying that a dancer cannot legitimately refuse to give someone that they don't like (for whatever reason) a LD. However, to think that racial issues don't come into play even a little bit in these kind of decisions is just wishful thinking. This is America, and America (like a lot of other countries) has problems with race people.
------------------------------

"The perception of young, urban, African-American males as 'gang-bangers' and 'thugs' is not without some valid reasons, but often leads clubs to adopt draconian dress codes and racial profiling policies based strictly on appearence."

Agreed. I've seen this first hand, but only at a few strip clubs so far...mostly in the Albany, NY area.

"Please, you know how many ugly, nasty, smelly, old customers an average stripper does LDs with in her lifetime? Come on now...?"

So strippers deserve to be raped in your opinion MisterGay. You really are a twisted perv.... with a rapist streak.

Someone should track MisterGay's internet address. Your daughters (and sons) are at risk from this wingnut

"So strippers deserve to be raped"

LOL...nobody's advocating for the rape of strippers, you stupid Right-wing Troll. However, YOU are the one that is trying to equate "White dancers" giving "Black customers" LDs as "condoning rape"...because you're a racist, period.

Someone should tell mitciv that this website exists so that a useful discussion & exchange of information about strip clubs can occur...not so one can spout off a bunch of racist, Right-wing nonsense from the likes of Michael Savage. Run along now Troll...

haha getting desperate wingnut?

Now go ask founder to ban me because I'm making you look like a fool!

MisterGay...seriously twisted...ugh

But I guess left wing tunnel vision wingnuts are OK?

"haha getting desperate wingnut?"

Nope, that would be YOU, Mr. Right-wing Internet Troll...and for quite some time now! As I've said to you many times now (in your silly, moronic attack posts on other portions of this website), it really does HURT to be schooled over & over again eh??

"Now go ask founder to ban me"

I've done nothing of the kind. This is founder's site...it's his rules, not mine.
----------------------

"But I guess left wing tunnel vision wingnuts are OK?"

No, the FACTS of the matter are what's "OK" my Right-wing friend. Live & learn...

MisterGay has a rapist streak. He is not your run of the mill pervert.

Law Enforcement needs to be aware of him.

Thanks for fucking up an interesting thread guys.

"...a bunch of racist, Right-wing nonsense from the likes of Michael Savage"

Are you serious? This gratuitous attack on a national treasure shows what an ignorant scumbag you are, MisterGAY !!!

Where is your evidence wingnut?

mitciv,

From now on, only MisterGuy can spout HIS nonsense. He is the greatest!

Just for old times sake, I'll school our resident Right-wing Internet Troll just one more time before just ignoring his ignorant posts & threads in the future:

"has a rapist streak"

...in your own highly warped mind that is...

"Law Enforcement needs to be aware of him."

LOL...cyber-threats are really a HUGE sign of weakness yanno...

"Where is your evidence"

Hmmmm...from this wacko's own website:

"The Savage Manifesto

D. Cut off all public assistance for immigrants for five years. Repatriate those who are not working, after two years."

Those nasty, dark skinned immigrants need to go home, eh Savage??

"F. Have illegal aliens build a wall between the United States and Mexico, and then, repatriate them. Pay them a one-time worker fee."

LOL...slave labor followed by "a one-time worker fee"...sounds very "American" there Savage...

"G. Fire any unmarried military person becoming pregnant while on active duty."

Fire pregnant female soldiers! Very, very "American" indeed Savage...

"H. Require Norplant for all women on welfare of childbearing age."

Effectively sterilize women on welfare...their human rights be damned, eh Savage??

"I. Close all houses of sex and massage."

So much for TUSCL!

"M. Encourage all other illegals to self-repatriate through double taxation on wages"

Double taxation without representation! Once again, sounds very, very, very "American" there Savage...

"International

B. Iran. One, sanctions embargoes and mine their harbors. Nothing goes in, nothing comes out.

C. North Korea. Destroy their launching platforms, impose a Naval blockade on all goods coming in or out, except food."

Open War with BOTH Iran & North Korea! We sure as heck can "afford" that, eh Savage??

http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/?pageId…

As for being against so-called "rapists", one might re-consider supporting a thug like Savage, especially after his September 21, 1999 broadcast where Savage said that female students who came from a Marin County private school to feed & provide services to the homeless "can go in and get raped by them because they seem to like the excitement of it..." On the March 18, 2003, Savage called Elizabeth Smart "Snow White", then he then went on to say that if he were writing a newspaper article about what had happened to Elizabeth Smart that the headline would be, "Snow White Gets Raped By Bum In White Robes."

http://www.dartanyan.com/Artopinion/KSFO…

http://users.nlamerica.com/tharden/savag…

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1632

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/20060411000…


Welcome to obscurity mitciv...you've earned it! LOL...

Yeah, take that!

Not surprising rapist streaked MisterGay the useful idiot that he is would use George Soros' non-profit media matters which only takes cheap shots at conservatives, but somehow maintains it's tax-free status.

Savage is 10 times smarter than MisterGay. You've outdone yourself here pervert, taking mudslinging to a new level. But that's the only arrow in your quiver.

mitciv,

When a conservative source is listed, he bashes it, yet uses his liberal sources as gospel. When fact checked and when people are asked for trustworthiness, conservatives sources win hands down. Not even close!

A real recent example and from this "administration" no less. The fabricated "jobs" numbers. Jobs in districts that do not even exist. They had to admit their lies!

"When a conservative source is listed, he bashes it, yet uses his liberal sources as gospel."

LOL...as IF all of the sources that I listed above for Michael Savage were "liberal"...including his very own site! LMAO!

"When fact checked and when people are asked for trustworthiness, conservatives sources win hands down"

...in your own highly-biased, Right-wing opinion that is...lol...what a fool you really are clubber...

"The fabricated 'jobs' numbers"

...which were, of course, never "fabricated" in the first place.

"Jobs in districts that do not even exist"

...which were an extremely tiny number of the data that was used, period.

What a surprise clubber, you've been caught again telling half-truths & lies with absolutely ZERO facts to back up anything that you claim...just like always...LMAO!

Trying to get this back on topic a bit I have a friend who sometimes works day shift at Cheetahs in Vegas. She tells me a sizeable proportion of their customers is Mexican weekday day shift. They don't buy dances (they're $10 during the day), just drink beer. My friend is part Mexican.

OK, now mg is starting to at least quantify liberal lies.

""Jobs in districts that do not even exist"

...which were an extremely tiny number of the data that was used, period.""

A good start, but he has a long way to go.

Someday, we may even get him to admit the PROVEN lies. Of course, proving that they are lies doesn't deter his misguided fervor. Sad, very very sad!

59,

I see those types all the time in clubs, regardless of ethnicity. At a local club I visit, they have a large Mexican customer base, and my bartender and dancers tell me they rarely spend any money other than on a few beers.

Probably should have made my point a little clearer. I was responding to Sinclair's original post re: Cheetah's having a bad reputation at one time for being racist. A long-time bouncer there wrote a book and claimed that.

Times have apparently changed, while the dancers probably consider the guys deadbeats no one is stopping them from patronizing these days.

"A good start, but he has a long way to go."

No, that's the entire unvarnished truth of the matter, moron. You'd know that already if you weren't so busy telling lies & half-truths yanno...ugh...

"Of course, proving that they are lies doesn't deter his misguided fervor."

LOL...like you've ever even tried to "prove" anything that you've said here old man...LMAO!