Bari Weiss on President Zelensky's address

It's great that American media loves him coz he had to ban Ukrainian media critical of him 🤡

Looks like he's willing to sacrifice ukraine to stay jn power and is begging biden to start ww3

Read the article. It says a lot more about America than Ukraine.

The author js an idiot....

"We are not yet in an actual war. I pray we never are."

Guess he doesn't keep up with current events.

^ The previous poster is the idiot.

We and Russia are not shooting at each other.

The US is bombing Yemen. Syria. And has fought a.proxy war against Russia in Eastern Ukraine since 2014.

"We say: I am a brand. Follow me. Like me.

Zelensky says: I am not iconic. Ukraine is iconic.

We ask: Is America ill-gotten?

Zelensky says: Ukraine is mine.

We say: Words put us in danger.

Zelensky says: I will never surrender.

We LARP on Twitter. And work hard to get people fired for bad Halloween costumes.

Ukranians line up for guns and say: I want to defend what I love.

We take down statues of our founding fathers. Of Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson.

They say: Glory to Ukraine.

We say: there is no real truth, only power.

They say: Might does not make right.

We say: anyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi. (Which, by the way, is exactly what Putin said to justify his invasion.)

They say: We are one people, united."

^ proxy war is semantic, but it's an important semantic. proxy wars allow nuclear armed states to pretend they're not actually fighting one another. public pressure is often the basis for wars, if enough americans demand a full scale war with russia, it could very well happen. the proxy bit keeps them distracted and takes some pressure off the valve.

(last post for icey, but tetradon beat me to the post!)

@drew, but the larger point is that America and its ideals are worth fighting for.

Among other things, Weiss attacks the stupid cancellation of all things Russian.

It reached an absurd peak when a cat show banned Russian breeds. I haven't heard about a feline brigade of the Russian army...

Ukraine made it illegal to post anti gov news. Zelensky had a peace negotiator killed. They're not united. They're ruled with an iron fist and dissent is illegal.

^ Fake news

"The second thing worth fighting for is America. America is worth the fight.

The other day on The View, I watched as a man with a Harvard law degree and a denizen of the most exclusive institutions in America, stumbled on the real problem facing the world: “The Constitution is trash,” he said.

If you are looking for the definition of the privilege of living in America, of living in a country with the First Amendment, it is the ability to say something so foolish on daytime television.

But what struck me was that he actually homed in on the right pressure point: The Constitution, the thing he was so blithely tearing down, is precisely the thing we need to recover. We need to recover, above all, the “Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity.”"

Here's the whole article. @Icee seems more interested in repeating the same three irrelevancies rather than reading, but maybe some others will enrich themselves with this.


"It feels like we are living through President Volodomyr Zelensky’s moment in history. Kyiv is being shelled and has been for the past three weeks. But the former comedian remains at his desk, wearing his army t-shirt and sitting in his green leather chair on Bankova Street in the center of the city. More than two million Ukranians have fled the country, but he will not budge.

“The fight is here,” he said, responding to an offer from the Americans to help him evacuate. And then, reportedly: “I need ammunition, not a ride.” (I’m in Florida right now, and I saw a guy wearing a t-shirt with the line printed in yellow and blue—already there are t-shirts!)

There is a reason that line—apocryphal or not—instantly became a meme. It is because we live in an era in which acting like sheep has become the norm. In which cowardice is the default. In which the ideas of leadership and sacrifice seemed like dead letters.

And yet here was the real article. A leader showing courage, real courage, and in doing so inspiring bravery in others that they did not think themselves capable of. Duty, responsibility, moral clarity—he is breathing life into virtues many Americans thought were on life support or already dead.

Zelensky knows what he is fighting for. “We are all at war,” he said in an address to Ukraine. “Everywhere people defend themselves, although they do not have weapons. But these are our people. They have courage. Dignity. And hence the ability to go out and say: I'm here, it's mine, and I won't give it away. My city. My community. My Ukraine.”

And he knows what he is willing to do to get it: In his speech last week to British Parliament he said it through the words of Churchill: “We will fight till the end, at sea, in the air. We will fight in the forests, in the fields, on the shores, in the streets.” He promised to “never surrender.”

My favorite Zelensky line of all though—the most profound thing of many profound things in these shocking weeks—came when a reporter asked him how he was doing given the circumstances. Here’s what he said: “My life today is wonderful. I believe that I am needed. That’s the most important sense of life, that you are needed, that you are not just an emptiness that breathes and walks and eats something.”

Cynics will point out that Zelensky is an actor, adept at delivering lines, even at playing a president. They’ll say that he knows how to tug at our heart strings and he is doing it purposefully to draw the West into the war and get Ukraine the help it needs. Maybe. Probably.

But this isn’t a movie. His life really is on the line. And that explanation, in any case, does not account for the millions of ordinary Ukrainians who are taking up arms to defend their land.

In one video I watched a computer programmer waiting in line to get his weapon in Kyiv to fight “the Russian invaders.”

“Their objective, clearly, seems to be the occupation of my entire country and the destruction of everything that I love. I’m just a regular civilian. I have nothing to do with war or any other thing like it. And I wouldn’t really want to participate in anything like this. But I don’t really have any choice. This is my home.”

In another I watched a choir in Odessa sing. I came to find out that the name of the song they were singing is called “Choir of Hebrew Slaves,” from the opera Nabucco. It recalls the tragedy of the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians: “O, my homeland, so beautiful and lost!”

Listening to such people speak (and sing) so plainly is deeply moving and inspiring. It is also, if I am honest, unsettling.

Why?

Why is witnessing such courage uncomfortable?

It is because I cannot help but notice the gap between them and us. Between the bigness of their vision and their mission and the smallness of ours. Between their moral clarity and our moral confusion. Between their spine and our spinelessness. Between their courage and our epidemic of cowardice. Between their commitment to civilization and our resignation to chaos.

Watching Zelensky and his people reminds me what we have lost. Of how uncertain and fragile we have become.

Bearing witness to Ukraine’s answers forces me to ask some hard questions about us—questions I worry we have forgotten how to ask: How would we act if the guns were to our heads? Would we similarly feel no choice but to fight for our home, for everything we love? Would we have the courage to live by the values we profess if our backs were to the wall? Or the sense of national unity? Or have we gotten so comfortable, so coddled, so removed from the world of flesh and blood, that we have forgotten how to name those values at all.

We are not yet in an actual war. I pray we never are. But that doesn’t mean we aren’t in an ideological one. We are—and have been for a while now. And it is one that we—heirs to the Enlightenment and the American experiment—are losing very badly.

We are losing because we are unserious.

We say: I am a brand. Follow me. Like me.

Zelensky says: I am not iconic. Ukraine is iconic.

We ask: Is America ill-gotten?

Zelensky says: Ukraine is mine.

We say: Words put us in danger.

Zelensky says: I will never surrender.

We LARP on Twitter. And work hard to get people fired for bad Halloween costumes.

Ukranians line up for guns and say: I want to defend what I love.

We take down statues of our founding fathers. Of Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson.

They say: Glory to Ukraine.

We say: there is no real truth, only power.

They say: Might does not make right.

We say: anyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi. (Which, by the way, is exactly what Putin said to justify his invasion.)

They say: We are one people, united.

But the world is changing fast. History is roaring back to life. And the difference between the world of Zelensky’s Ukraine and ours is only a matter of degree and time.

One of the core lessons of what’s happening right now in Ukraine is that fighting for noble causes matters—indeed, it is the only thing that matters. It can mean the difference between life and death. Between freedom and slavery.

Everything happening in Ukraine right now is happening because human beings are willing to fight for it, to bend the arc of history. What would happen if we could be stirred to care about causes bigger than ourselves, our comforts, our reputations, what comes up when we Google ourselves?

If we are the home front of the free world—and I believe we are and must be—what are the principles that should guide us? What are the things worth fighting for?

I want to suggest three of them.

The first is individual liberty. Individual liberty is worth fighting for.

Since the war began, the following things have happened:

Russia House, a restaurant in Washington, D.C. near Dupont Circle, was vandalized more than once—its windows were broken and its door smashed in.

In Vancouver, St. Sophia’s Orthodox Church had red paint thrown on the front doors.

The Montreal Symphony canceled a performance by the Russian virtuoso Alexander Malofeev. Meanwhile, the Metropolitan Opera dropped one of its most celebrated sopranos and replaced the Russian singer with a Ukrainian. And a Formula 1 racing team fired the Russian driver Nikita Mazepin.

The Paralympics Games—these are games for handicapped people—banned Russians from participating. In the United Kingdom, a planned tour of the Russian State Ballet of Siberia was canceled.

Oh, and let’s not forget the cats: The International Cat Federation has banned Russian felines. Seriously.

Michael McFaul, who served as Obama’s ambassador to Russia, wrote on Twitter: “There are no more 'innocent' 'neutral' Russians anymore.” Think about that for a second. And ask yourself where you might have stood after Pearl Harbor when told how important it was to put Americans of Japanese descent into giant holding pens.

This is a very incomplete list, only a few of the latest victims in a series of never-ending moral panics.

But this mob mentality—presenting itself now as anti-Russian bigotry, but as something entirely different a week or two from now—can never, ever be made normal. It cuts against the most foundational principle of liberal democracy: individual liberty.

As my friend Jacob Siegel put it in Tablet: “The notion that individuals should have their employment conditioned on the actions of a foreign government, or their willingness to denounce those actions, is frankly gross and authoritarian—the kind of thing I was raised to believe happened in Russia, not the United States.”

In free and just societies, we judge people as individuals, not as members of a group. We judge them based on their deeds, not based on the deeds of their parents. Or people of the same gender. Or ZIP code. Or skin color.

The fetishization of group identity, whether by religion or race or gender or whatever, is poison. It leads to a zero-sum war within groups, and the subjugation and, ultimately, the dehumanization of the individual.

The great achievement of America was to move beyond bloodline. It was to say—for the first time in human history—that we are not constrained by the circumstances of our birth or the sins or merits of our mothers and fathers. We are bound together not by clan or tribe but by a commitment to rights and principles. This distinction is core to what makes America exceptional—the prioritizing of the value of individual life over that of the kinship group.

That is why any ideology—by whatever name it goes by, no matter how seductive— that grants some people a demerit and others extra credit because of the circumstances of their birth, that denies our individual value and our common humanity, is illiberal and un-American. It needs to be totally rejected.

To build a strong home front in this new era requires us to recover the radical, world-transforming proposition that we are all created equal because we are all created in the image of God.

The second thing worth fighting for is America. America is worth the fight.

The other day on The View, I watched as a man with a Harvard law degree and a denizen of the most exclusive institutions in America, stumbled on the real problem facing the world: “The Constitution is trash,” he said.

If you are looking for the definition of the privilege of living in America, of living in a country with the First Amendment, it is the ability to say something so foolish on daytime television.

But what struck me was that he actually homed in on the right pressure point: The Constitution, the thing he was so blithely tearing down, is precisely the thing we need to recover. We need to recover, above all, the “Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity.”

We do this, as the Founders did, by resisting tyranny in all its forms.

That means refusing to participate in moral panics. It means resisting mob mentality, since mob justice is no justice at all. It also means opposing any entity that uses its power to undermine democracy and strip us of individual liberty.

There are a thousand examples I could point to. But just consider one: Facebook announced last week that even though it’s wrong to call for some people to be killed, it’s not wrong to call for others to be. I’m serious. Facebook, which bars users from expressing hate speech, decided to allow people in Ukraine, Poland and Russia to call for violence against Putin, Russia and Russian soldiers. Then, Sunday, perhaps because of the backlash, the company reversed course: No assassination advocacy allowed on Instagram. At least for now.

I believe what Putin is doing is evil. I suspect you do, too. But what’s allowed to be said—and not—should not be left to the mandarins of Menlo Park.

Why have we resigned ourselves to living in a country where a few companies have arrogated to themselves the power of government even though we never elected them. Companies that control the 21st-century public square but have no obligations to any kind of digital First Amendment?

The Founders may not have been able to imagine the internet, but they surely could have understood the danger of a centralized force that had the power to determine what people could say and what they couldn’t. They would have called that tyranny.

If you want to understand why some people have been so cynical about this war—why they almost seem to be rooting for Putin—this is one of the major reasons why. It is because many Americans notice that the most powerful forces in America are exhibiting the kind of behavior we expect from countries like Russia….and that they aren’t being opposed by those who claim to be our moral betters. Instead, they are being cheered on.

They see American companies toying with our freedom of conscience and free expression, and they wonder: Sorry, which country has the problem with totalitarianism? Which country has a social credit system?

They see an elite that has lied to them about peaceful protests and Russiagate and masks and school closures. An attorney general who suggested parents who stood up for kids were domestic terrorists. A CDC that covered up science. A president that abandoned our allies in Afghanistan. A White House, right now, that is pouring one out for Ukraine . . . while using Moscow to negotiate a deal with Iran. An administration that opposes fracking and nuclear power while buying gas from despots. They see an elite that says that words are violence but violence is just a hallucination. That leaps from hashtag campaign to hashtag campaign, from BLM to vaccine mandates . . . and they think: Nope. I’m out. They think: the smart bet is to bet against that.

I want to say two things about this posture:

The first is that one can acknowledge the lies and the hypocrisies of our experts and our institutions. I do. But acknowledging it says nothing about the reality that Russia is actually bombing maternity hospitals. That it is killing journalists.

And if you have hardened yourself to that—if you hate us or part of us more than you hate that—then you have lost the plot. Then you are justifying the unjustifiable.

The second thing is that you can oppose the lies and the hypocrisies without giving up on America and its exceptional proposition. Indeed, the way to recover America isn’t to become moral relativists or isolationists or apologists for evil. It’s to look our moral and practical failings in the face and fix them.

It’s also to recognize what we have gotten right. I heard that in Ketanji Brown Jackson’s unapologetic formulation of gratitude when she was nominated to the Supreme Court:

“If I’m fortunate enough to be confirmed as the next associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, I can only hope that my life and career, my love of this country and the Constitution, and my commitment to upholding the rule of law and the sacred principles upon which this great nation was founded, will inspire future generations of Americans,” she said. How shocking in its clarity.

I listened to a talk the other day in which a historian, an expert on Russia, said that societies that are conquered from outside can recover. But societies that destroy themselves from within cannot.

We need to right our ship not just for ourselves but for the world. The world needs us to be the moral actors we used to be, because we need to engage in the world. And we need to be because civilization has to be defended.

Civilization. Civilization is worth fighting for.

If the past three weeks have reminded us of anything, at root, it is that the line between civilization and what we might call uncivilization is paper thin.

Just ask the people of Odessa, who not four weeks ago were going to the opera and the parks and the movies and who are now, mothers and their children, knitting camouflage and filling sandbags and learning how to shoot. They are standing at the borderland between democracy and subjugation. They will tell you.

Or ask Serhiy Perebeinis.

Last week, his wife, Tatiana Perebeinis, 43, along with his daughter, Alise, 9, and son, Nikita, 18, tried to flee the town of Irpin, a suburb about 15 minutes from Kyiv. They had just dashed across a partially destroyed bridge over the Irpin River into Kyiv when a Russian mortar hit. They were all killed. So was the church volunteer who was trying to escort them to safety.

Serhiy was in Eastern Ukraine at the time helping his sick mother. He found out that his entire family had been murdered after seeing a photo of their dead bodies on Twitter.

Tatiana was the chief accountant of a Palo Alto start-up called SE Ranking. And I just keep thinking to myself: what would the life of this family be if they had not been born into a country that Putin decided actually belonged to him? It is the difference between a weekend family hike in California and a weekend family funeral in Ukraine.

Reckoning with the flaws and failings of past generations, grappling with our history are part of the civilization for which we are fighting. But that cannot be confused for a second with the zeal to purge and purify, to cancel and punish and tear down, to the nihilists who say we have to repudiate the tools that allow us to improve and progress and forgive. The tools that have made our civilization the freest in all of history.

Western civilization is an enormous achievement—the gradual development of thousands of years of human will and wisdom, of political, economic and cultural capital. We should treat it with the preciousness it deserves. Pretending as if what we have is bad or ill-gotten is beyond ignorant, and the ideologues trying to drag us back into pre-Enlightenment tribalism should be seen for what they are: useful idiots doing the bidding of Moscow, Beijing, Pyongyang and Tehran. We should never indulge them. We should say their ideas are wrong plainly and without apology.

It’s time to set that kind of relativism aside. Time to judge and discern again. Time to choose.

There are complicated debates to be had about no-fly-zones and NATO expansion. But there are other questions that every single American is equipped to answer:

Do we root for Russia, and its partners in Beijing and Tehran, or do we cheer on Zelensky, and with him London, Paris, and Washington, D.C.? Do we imagine a future in which each citizen is closely monitored by the state, assigned a social score and tracked by tech giants that record her every move, or would we prefer free and unfettered speech and respect for privacy? Are we ok with concentration camps for religious minorities and corporations whose profits are downstream of genocide, or do we believe that every human life is sacred?

Do we say, sorry we can’t do anything about the Chinese Communist Party, it is too strong and we are too intertwined and the price would be too high. Or do we say: no. That’s not true. Look at what Churchill did in 1940. Look what Zelensky is doing right now. Look what a nation can achieve when the stakes are their highest, when their hearts and minds are focused on one mission.

Do we believe in nation-states with sovereignty, or land grabs and might making right? Do we fight for civilization or do we resign ourselves to decline? Do we insist that nothing is destined, that the choice of decline or ascendance is ours?

I know what I choose.

There are people who fought very hard for the freedoms and privileges that we have. And a lot of Americans are using those freedoms to turn on other Americans. To suggest that disagreeing about the war makes them traitors.

Others are sleepwalking. Giving them up without a second thought. That’s what Putin and the rest of the world’s tyrants are counting on. They are counting on the fact that the superpower that considers receiving groceries in under an hour its major achievement won’t interrupt a good online sale for anyone else’s sake.

Zelensky’s wisdom—and what he is calling on in us—is a rejection of that myopia. “The world offers you comfort. But you were not made for comfort. You were made for greatness.” Who knows if Zelensky’s ever heard that line from Pope Benedict but he seems to know it in his bones. Once upon a time, so did we.

It was America that once gave the world the courage and the inspiration to keep the fight going. It was our founders that themselves stood against evil tyrants, who demanded glory for their fledgling democracy. These days, it’s the guy in Kyiv with the army green t-shirt.

God bless him. And may we all take on his fight. For his sake and for ours. "

Spamming the thread with blocks of text just makes you look like the troll you are

Ukraine made it illegal to post anti gov news. Zelensky had a peace negotiator killed. They're not united. They're ruled with an iron fist and dissent is illegal.

^ LOL!

Spamming my own thread, created to discuss a specific article, with the text of the article itself???

You are reaching a new level of stupid today, amigo.

Go away tetraplop. You know it's just a block of text no one will read .

@etra:"but the larger point is that America and its ideals are worth fighting for."

I would agree.

(sorry... meant @Tetra)

If no one is going to read it, why is anyone commenting on a thread about it?

Were you born this retarded or did you have to work at it?

(and that was @dumbasscee...we're cool, @drew)

What ideals are we fighting for in Yemen by supporting the Saudis? What about un Afghanistan where we invaded our taliban friends then left 21 years after giving them power again? What do we love about zelensky? Him bombing his own people since 2014 or him shutting down media critical or him and jailing the opposition? Which values do we admire?

You're full of it

"My favorite Zelensky line of all though—the most profound thing of many profound things in these shocking weeks—came when a reporter asked him how he was doing given the circumstances. Here’s what he said: “My life today is wonderful. I believe that I am needed. That’s the most important sense of life, that you are needed, that you are not just an emptiness that breathes and walks and eats something.”

Cynics will point out that Zelensky is an actor, adept at delivering lines, even at playing a president. They’ll say that he knows how to tug at our heart strings and he is doing it purposefully to draw the West into the war and get Ukraine the help it needs. Maybe. Probably.

But this isn’t a movie. His life really is on the line. And that explanation, in any case, does not account for the millions of ordinary Ukrainians who are taking up arms to defend their land."

More walls of text to troll and deflect 🤡

God forbid we post from the article on a thread about the article.

Reading is fun!

@icey: "What ideals are we fighting for in Yemen by supporting the Saudis"

This particular fight isn't an "ideals" fight. This is backing an ally fighting a regional insurgency with sectarian roots. Yemeni Sunnis are running the government, Shia separatists are fighting the government who have pulled in their allies the (also Sunni) Saudis. Iranians are Shia, so they're probably in it too. So we support the Saudis, and like that we are pulled into a local shitfight.

Why back an ally fighting a regional insurgency? It's a reasonable question, because on the surface it looks like something to avoid. When we back an ally, we demonstrate that being our ally is worthwhile: fuck with our ally, we will fuck with you. This attracts and maintains alliances that we need.

Obvious next question: why back regressive totalitarians like the Saudis? The answer is sad, but not every fight is an honorable one. We back them because they are a least-worst option in a rough neighborhood, and because they supply us with a lot of oil.

I do think that American ideals are good, and have made the world better in places, and that we occasionally get the chance to fight for them. A lot of times though, we have to play the game of global power politics, and get stuck in nasty no-good-guys conflicts.

Except that we don't back them. At least not anymore. Biden ceased supporting the Saudi offensives in Yemen in the first month of his presidency.

@CMI: While we are still supporting the Saudis, you are correct we are not explicitly supporting that particular war at the moment.

It's about political and economic interests. Just like supporting a puppet Ukrainian regime is

"Western civilization is an enormous achievement—the gradual development of thousands of years of human will and wisdom, of political, economic and cultural capital. We should treat it with the preciousness it deserves. Pretending as if what we have is bad or ill-gotten is beyond ignorant, and the ideologues trying to drag us back into pre-Enlightenment tribalism should be seen for what they are: useful idiots doing the bidding of Moscow, Beijing, Pyongyang and Tehran. We should never indulge them. We should say their ideas are wrong plainly and without apology."

It's absolute hypocrisy when yhe US sheds crocodile tears or feign outrage at foreign wars

^ Useful idiot for Moscow, Beijing, Pyongyang, and Tehran

Not as hypocritical as some foreign fuck like Icey pretending to be an American.

THE UNDENIABLE REALITY IS:

As our history attests, promises made to the “freedom fighters” of nations we want to control, uttered by the Americans representatives (CIA, black ops, ministers, envoys, presidents etc) are empty and facetious, a ploy to gain the support, of the side we think we can control, to hasten the defeat of the side we think we can’t control.

This duplicity approach in general would cause a war to erupt (business for the American arm manufacturers and the USA military–industrial complex), the death of thousands of people, including some Americans (collateral damage)

This is the American Way; lie, cheat, betray to accomplish the imperialist ambitions of a few greedy Americans that don’t care about other people, Americans or not.

“I cherish peace with all of my heart. I don't care how many men, women and children I kill to get it.”

~ Pacemaker from the movie The Suicide Squad

“I cherish MONEY & POWER with all of my heart. I don't care how many men, women and children I kill to get it.”

~ America from the annals of history...

^

""Western civilization is an enormous achievement—the gradual development of thousands of years of human will and wisdom, of political, economic and cultural capital. We should treat it with the preciousness it deserves. Pretending as if what we have is bad or ill-gotten is beyond ignorant, and the ideologues trying to drag us back into pre-Enlightenment tribalism should be seen for what they are: useful idiots doing the bidding of Moscow, Beijing, Pyongyang and Tehran. We should never indulge them. We should say their ideas are wrong plainly and without apology.""

CJKunt, another useful idiot.

Still waiting for Cacaplop, he usually hops off the school bus around this time.

^
“Pretending as if what we have is NOT bad or ill-gotten is beyond ignorant”

FTFY You are welcome.

^ "Pretending as if what we have is bad or ill-gotten is beyond ignorant,"

FTFY, you are welcome.

Between 1776 and the present, the United States seized some 1.5 billion acres from North America’s native peoples, an area 25 times the size of the United Kingdom.

Indigenous Genocide, Racialized Slavery, Hyper-Capitalism, Militarist Imperialism and other “enormous achievements” of the USA

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NOT PRETENDING, JUST THE UNDENIABLE TRUTH

And the natives seized it from one another. Sacrificed tens of thousands. Drove species to extinction. Burned forest.

But like it or not, our fates are tied to the American nation-state. There are two sides to a conflict, and one of them is clearly in the wrong.

"Do we root for Russia, and its partners in Beijing and Tehran, or do we cheer on Zelensky, and with him London, Paris, and Washington, D.C.? Do we imagine a future in which each citizen is closely monitored by the state, assigned a social score and tracked by tech giants that record her every move, or would we prefer free and unfettered speech and respect for privacy? Are we ok with concentration camps for religious minorities and corporations whose profits are downstream of genocide, or do we believe that every human life is sacred?

Do we say, sorry we can’t do anything about the Chinese Communist Party, it is too strong and we are too intertwined and the price would be too high. Or do we say: no. That’s not true. Look at what Churchill did in 1940. Look what Zelensky is doing right now. Look what a nation can achieve when the stakes are their highest, when their hearts and minds are focused on one mission."

Zelenskyy is really inspiring.

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/things-…

Thanks for that Tetradon.

SJG

Led Zeppelin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-WSbMW7…

“The idea that the United States is uniquely virtuous may be comforting to Americans.”

“Too bad it's not true.”

“Americans blind themselves to the ways that they are just like everyone else.”

“It is also called Superiority Complex; a burning desire to minimize or undermine other human beings to make themelves feel better…”

“Americans don’t always have self-awareness (denial) to know they are coming across to people around the world as what in reality America is, an hypocritical, greedy bullying, opportunistic, imperialist power…”

“Yes, America's economy is a war economy. Not a "manufacturing" economy. Not an "agricultural" economy. Nor a "service" economy. Not even a "consumer" economy.”

^ Incoherent nonsense placed in quotes to feign credibility.

Biden wanted to be FDR with his Build Back Better. That did not happen.

But now, it is a different story.

And after this 2022 Democratic Landslide, he might still get to do what he tried, and what we desperately need.

SJG

People, should decide whether something written or said makes sense by its content, not by the person who writes or says it, regardless of the letters after his or her name, title or position in society, age, nationality etc.

^^ I prefer your actual Cacaplop persona. He's no different than MackTruck or crazyjoe here. More shit comes out your mouth than his ass, Randy.

^ I'll give Biden credit, he's not fucking up the Ukraine situation, but he's not making some big positive impact either. Dem domestic agenda is still not going anywhere.

“Like everything metaphysical the harmony between thought and reality is to be found in the grammar of the language.”

~ Ludwig Wittgenstein
~ Austrian-British philosopher
~ Born: April 26, 1889, Vienna, Austria
~ Died: April 29, 1951, Cambridge, United Kingdom

Ludwig said it all...

@CJ, your stuff wouldn't make sense no matter who says it. You're an autistic pseudointellectual.

You’re not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can’t face reality.

Wrong is wrong, no matter what, when where or who does it or who says it”

^ You're living proof of that cj, now go back to wanking over your dick pic collection, FUCKHEAD!

Cjkunt is posting quotes. If people like Wittgenstein don't make sense to you then work on your language comprehension skills.

But you're just a stupid little bitch thinking that saying you don't understand someone makes them look dumb when it just makes you look neurodivergent

"Wrong is wrong, no matter what, when where or who does it or who says it"
Yes, you are so frequently wrong.

Fuck Putin.
Fuck the invaders.
Glory to Ukraine.
Glory to the heroes.
God bless America.

How is this wrong?

Like everything metaphysical the harmony between thought and reality is to be found in the grammar of the language.”

~ Ludwig Wittgenstein

🤡

@Icee, posting your own words in un-ascribed quotes is a great way to make them look like they were spoken by someone with greater authority than yourself.

And posting nothing but quotes in general is a coward's way of avoiding responsibility for one's own words.

^ Wrong? No, just pseudointellectual and meaningless.

Wittgenstein said that the narrative you choose to believe shapes your reality

In your case your preconceived notions based on feigning an affinity to Ukraine. Which you only have no and didn't give a fuck about when they were killing their own for 8 years.

Dumb bitch

How is Ludwig Wittgenstein a pseudointellectual?

^ Ah, look who pretends to know what I'm thinking!

Speaking of who didn't give a fuck, who found common cause with the two biggest alt-righters on this board over a desire to start shit? You want to talk insincere?

Icey Ukrainians are risking their lives to maintain their independence, rather than submitting.

We most certainly have an affinity with any people who are doing that.

SJG

You made yourself look dumb so back to personal attacks. Keep posting bidens war propaganda.

"You made yourself look dumb"

LOL I've slam dunked you repeatedly on several different threads.
It's easy when your side is bombing maternity hospitals, and shelling schools and community centers.

When there's a chance to side opposite you, Dave_Anderson, and Cacaplop, I'd be a fool not to take it!

Are you outraged when the US does it? How about Ukraine doing it to its own people for 8 years?

Hypocrite

How about staying on topic at hand? Drew and Ishmael addressed the US thing well. Sometimes, you don't get to choose a morally pure side.

In this case, Russia is _much_ _worse_ than anything Ukraine is doing.

You still can't address my point.

Icey, you think the US is tainted. Well when did you first discover this?

Ukrainians are fighting for their lives, instead of submitting. So of course, we are already on their side.

SJG

Ukraine has killed its own people for 8 years and has a neonazi batallion in its army. Anti gov news is illegal jailed opposition shut down opposition media. But he's a proxy for the US so....

Icey, your account is extremely distorted. Putin has been trying to build a pretext to annex Ukraine since 2014. His methods are similar to those of Hitler.

SJG

^ They also have a Jewish president, and are getting massacred by Russians.

Have I mentioned they're bombing maternity hospitals? Using land mines on roads used by refugee caravans? Shelling schools and community centers?
They're intensifying attacks on civilian targets to terrorize the population.

Fuck Putin.
Fuck the invaders.
Slava Ukraini.
Slava Heroyam.
God Bless America.

Wrong. The US brokered coup led to a Civil War.

@SJG, yes, it sounds a lot like Lebensraum, a pure land for ethnic Germans, or in this case, Russians.

Lebensraum for Russians..... 😭😭🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

Same policy, different nationality, different time.

I recognize that's a lot for your 75 IQ brain to process, but hopefully I've dumbed it down enough.

Iceefag has been a known anti-semitic poster since he started, the reference points that are claimed by that jerkoff aren't new nor are they unknown, typical bigoted hater that's how they roll, the Nazi types always claim they're trying to protect us from the Jews. Iceefag next time you attempt suicide remember it's up and down not across.

@25, as someone who actually served his country rather than shit-talks it, I think you would appreciate Bari Weiss' message that America too is worth defending.

Thank you for your service (even if Nam was fucked up)

Putin's propaganda tactics are a lot like Hitler's, yes, Lebensraum.

SJG

^ I heard an interesting idea earlier today, it says NATO should instead of creating a no fly zone, should move in with military power to areas that are not yet under attack, and create safe havens, putting the onus on Mr. Putin to attack Nato forces, and demonstrating that his threats are just bluster. If the Russians choose to attack and I don't believe they will risk bringing us into this conflict, they are losing and our forces are many times stronger than the Ukraines, this conflict will end quickly and decisively.
Something else I heard this evening, decendants of Ukranians that sheltered Jews from the Nazi's during WWII are being airlifted to Isreal, the statement made, was us Jews know how to repay our debts to our fellow humans that are suffering through no fault of their own.

This is kind of happening already, and the US is a part of it.

SJG

^ I've gone from "we can't get directly involved" to "we are directly involved."

Our sanctions are just about shooting-war levels.

THE UNDENIABLE TRUTH

Remember that the so-called founding fathers were BRITISH paranoid hypocrites and ungrateful malcontents.

What was their cherished Declaration of Independence but empty political posturing?

The separation from Great Britain was done to justify the genocide committed against Native Americans and preserve slavery of African Americans.

Imperial expansion west over stolen Indian land shaped and deepened the American Revolution’s relationship to slavery.

I agree with twentyfive and Tetradon.

We are not shooting at Russians, at least not yet. Who knows where this will lead.

Khrushchev had to step down after the Cuban Crisis, and I don't think it likely that that had been his idea. But it did happen on his watch.

Putin will have to go.

A no fly zone enforced from the air is not practical, not yet. But it is like Kennedy and his "Quarantine" of Cuba. So it is understandable that Ukrainians would call for it, as well as for shutting off the Bosporus.

Getting the more advanced air space defense weapons to Ukraine is a very good move.


SJG

X Portland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMXIP8A2…

^ A Russia expert friend (i.e. advanced degree in the matter) says Putin wants all of Ukraine, not just the Russian-speaking areas. If he gets it, the Baltics and Georgia come next.

Ronald Reagan, our most successful president in thwarting Russian malignance, said you cannot show weakness to them. That is still true. If Putin knows he can get what he wants by threatening nukes, he'll do it for everything.

Tetradon, I agree. Putin wants the Tsar's empire back, and he wants to be Joseph Stalin. He already pretty much has Belarus. Ukraine is the biggest. The three Baltic States are probably the most contentious, and it was their assertion of independence which helped to destabilize Gorbachev and encourage the hard liner coup attempt.

The American Revolution was mostly a revolt against British bureaucratic ineptitude. We, or at least White Americans, have an advantage over most other countries, like especially Latin America, because our experience of colonialism was never based on a theory of racial supremacy.

SJG

^ The British were the nicest colonizers (that's a relative term). Look at what they did in their colonies vs. the Spanish or especially the French. Look at, say, Barbados vs. Haiti in the Caribbean.

Note, Weiss' article isn't a "my country right or wrong" thing.
It _is_ a call to face our faults.
It _is_ a call not to surrender to hate, even of Russians right now.
It _is_ a call to recognize what we've gotten right.
It _is_ a call not to let our own past failings get in the way of doing the right thing now.

Defending Bfitish colonialism and supporting the continuation of the cold War plus bidens war.... 🤡

20fag Nato has zero obligations to nonmember nations. But way to go cheering on ww3

^ Thanks for your continued example of moral cowardice.

Icee is a Pussee.

^ Iceefag isn't a pussee, more like a gnat.

^ And CJKunt expresses moral cowardice too, but we already knew he was a kunt.

Opposing a war biden and the media keep trying to brainwash us to support is bravery

You can't even oppose evil on a strip club message board, how are you going to stick your neck out for anything?

Have you given a nickel of your "pimping" earnings to support your cause?

BTW, Pussee, being intentionally controversial on a message board is not "bravery." In fact, it's a coward's idea of what bravery looks like. Not acknowledging facts that don't support your worldview isn't "bravery," in fact, it's the opposite.

You don't show an ounce of it, just a love of manipulating lost women.

^ They are both vonces

Yes the British empire use of massacres, famines, concentration camps was very nicely applied for the British Empire benefit

^ Whatever

“Not acknowledging facts that don't support your worldview isn't "bravery," in fact, it's the opposite.”

^ You cast an aspersion, you did not state a fact.

Besides, I didn't say any colonizers were nice. I said better than the French.

Opposing war isn't controversial. Spamming a.syrip club forum with pro war propaganda is being a troll

^ You aren't opposing war, you are promoting the ultimate warmaker here--Russia.

I wish you were this outraged about us wars and zelensky killing his own people

See if either one of the two vonces will acknowledge thousands of dead Ukrainians, and over four million have left their country, mostly to NATO countries that makes this an obligation to member nations, and how many displaced inside Ukraine.
Also several dead Americans that had legitimate business there not connected to this war, that makes this our concern.

^ I wish you'd acknowledge what is going on right in front of your nose that is far worse than either.

No one will risk ww3 over an American proxy.

THE UNDENIABLE FACT IS:

Intractable conflicts are found in many areas of the world that were once colonized by Western Europeans aka 🇬🇧 UK Great Britain, in Africa, the Balkans, Southeast Asia and America.

Most of these conflicts are large and complex, especially those concerning boundaries, ethnic rivalry, the uneven distribution of resources, human-rights violations, and lack of good governance can be found at the heart of protracted problems.

The best example of this is the United States were past imperialist policies continue to have this effect; ethnic rivalry, the uneven distribution of resources, human-rights violations, and lack of good governance.

For this reason, it is vital that those wishing to transform or resolve protracted conflict, acknowledge the past, and take into account the effects past imperialist policies continue to have on today's post British-Colonial and American-Imperialist societies.

^ We didn't colonize Ukraine, dumbass.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.realclear…

Zelensky Is No Hero, He's A Puppet That Is Putting His Own Population At Unnecessary Risk

@Tetradon the two vonces are just using you because they're bored with their pathetic little lives, I just put them back on ignore I suggest you do the same.

I was working late and having fun using them as punching bags. Not stressing out about them.

https://www.businessinsider.com/former-t…

^ I'm not stressing they have nothing useful to say, life is too short and I have things to do, that I enjoy, beating up on mental midgets doesn't give me any thrill.

How is dementia treating you?

^ Now, wanting to be controversial has you sucking off Trump stooges.

How is mental retardation treating you?

You don't bask sjg that when you agree with his fake news supporting the war

Opposing us meddling in a foreign war or brokering a proxy war isn't controversial. You think saying it is makes you look right. You think you're on a high school debate team bitch

"You think you're on a high school debate team bitch"

I'll take that as a compliment. Says I'm beating your ass with facts and logic.

You aren't opposing the war, you're supporting the aggressor.

No proxy war, this is an ally that wants to be more tied to the west against an imperialist power that you support that openly wants to reconsider its old terrain.

Slava Ukraini
God Bless America

Nah you just think repeating yourself and trying to imply a false consensus makes you right. When it does the opposite. When you fail you troll like crazy to try to get people disinterested in the thread and to drown out others posts

I repeat facts that you ignore, forget, or handwave away. I bring them back to the discussion.

Lol at saying I'm trolling my own thread with content from the article it's meant to discuss. It's not trolling it's bringing it back.

You are the off topic troll.

Nah you just think repeating yourself and trying to imply a false consensus makes you right. When it does the opposite. When you fail you troll like crazy to try to get people disinterested in the thread and to drown out others posts

I repeat facts that you ignore, forget, or handwave away. I bring them back to the discussion.

Lol at saying I'm trolling my own thread with content from the article it's meant to discuss. It's not trolling it's bringing it back.

You are the off topic troll.

Yeah Ukraine is not a Clint Eastwood movie, we can't fix it all by being the High Plains Drifter. (Great movie, bad basis for life planning.)

Maybe the best comparison is with the Irish War of "Independence". In the end, the Republicans had to accept British control of Irish foreign policy, and of the parts of Ulster that were Protestant-majority. This is more or less similar to what Putin wants in Ukraine. But the new Irish Republic did hella stupid, religiously intolerant shit. Like making divorce illegal. Which caused many people to feel like at least keeping the Protestant-majority areas in the UK was justifiable. Hopefully the Kiev government will not go all whackjob extreme like that. As much as that will disappoint our resident whackjobs.

Many people originally came to the United States because they wanted to get away from the religious and ethnic wars that had plagued Europe for centuries. Washington in his Farewell Address said, having escaped that, we shouldn't become embroiled in those interminable wars over in Europe. The Monroe doctrine warned Europe they could continue their quarrels, but they better not come over here and start fights with each other or with us.

Wars are caused by one country's wish to take control of another country's wealth…

In the case of Ukraine 🇺🇦 there is an economic motive underlying the conflict (business and of course profits for the American arm manufacturers and the USA military–industrial complex), even if the stated aim of the war is presented to the public as something more noble…

Zelensky is trying to start WWIII as the behest of his puppet master, the USA, and for the economic benefits for the USA military–industrial complex…

He's playing a part in needlessly sending more of his own people to the slaughter, as well as pushing the world closer to nuclear war, for the sake of profits for the USA military–industrial complex the class of military, business, and political leaders, driven by power, greed and the love of money…

“It is the sufferings of the many which pay for the luxuries of the few...”

~ Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg
~ Born: 3rd January 2003 , Sweden
~ Occupation: Student, environmental activist

"He's playing a part in needlessly sending more of his own people to the slaughter, as well as pushing the world closer to nuclear war, for the sake of profits for the USA military–industrial complex the class of military, business, and political leaders,"

False. Putin initiated this and could stop it today.

I agree 100% with cjk.


And the US could have prevented much bloodshed by never invading any country. But tetraplop wasn't even happy when the US did what he says russia should do and pulled out of Afghanistan

^ Off topic troll

“Not acknowledging facts that don't support your worldview isn't "bravery," in fact, it's the opposite.”

^ You are still trolling, not posting facts

Tetraplop thinks anything outside his narrative isn't valid . Myopic bitch.

Wannabe Ben Shapiro.

Cjkunt owned tetraplop jn this thread.

^ Like Ishmael said elsewhere, Icee the Pussee is too lazy to read an article he himself posted, leading to chronic self owns.

Let alone an article someone else posted, bit it doesn't stop him from commenting on a thread about it.

Slava Ukraini
God Bless America
God Bless Protesting Russians
Fuck the Invaders
Double Fuck Putin

T H E U N D E N I A B L E R E A L I T Y

“The US population is generally ignorant, mis-educated, and deliberately lied-to, about international affairs even more than domestic politics.

They think of themselves as “America” and say, “we” and “us” when speaking about the national state of which they really know little and have less control.”

“It is the sufferings of the many which pay for the luxuries of the few...”

~ Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg
~ Born: 3rd January 2003 , Sweden
~ Occupation: Student, environmental activist

^ Off topic troll

ALL CAPS don't make your words more important (or believable...).

Also, regardless of the stance, the least reliable person in the room is usually the one who claims to have unassailable facts or truths. But, hey, we all know you're going to keep going with this quote-guy personality disorder thing.

I will say, though, that I prefer this to you creepily and obsessively trying to get more voyeuristic entertainment from Gawker's stories about his ATF.

Because that really was creepy as fuck.

^ Directed at CJKent.

^ That's why I've stopped giving him more than a one sentence reply, because he posts the same three quotes for _every_ situation, no matter how irrelevant.

Quotes are a way of avoid responsibility for your words. And putting quotes falsely around your own words is a way to falsely claim the authority of the person speaking (even if, like Greta, they have very little on the subject on which they opine).

People should decide whether something written or said makes sense by its content, not by the person who writes or says it, regardless of the letters after his or her name, title or position in society, age, nationality etc, etc, etc.

^ Nothing you say makes sense

CJKent said: "People should decide whether something written or said makes sense by its content, not by the person who writes or says it, regardless of the letters after his or her name, title or position in society, age, nationality etc, etc, etc."

I do. And in this instance, the end determination remains exactly the same.

Idiot, who has no opinion of his own, responds by quoting others thoughts. funny part is 80% of his quotes are inaccurately stated, the rest are completely out of context, and the majority of those don't even apply to the subject in the thread.
BTW I'd make a wager that his enamorada ( Greta ) is on the side of Ukraine, yet the dumbass tries to use the collected wit and wisdom of a teenager to make some nonexistent point.

Have you looked every quote up and calculated it? Thqt makes you a weirdo

@CJK:"Wars are caused by one country's wish to take control of another country's wealth…"

Interesting premise. If you lump in raw materials (oil, coal), and the productive capacity of land (Ukraine is a grain producer, for example) that could cover quite a few conflicts. Hell, the old south was ultimately protecting a wildly profitable (and totally amoral) economic model via the civil war.

I think there is a gap in this statement however... some wars are started for other reasons, certainly. I'm thinking of the following...

* WW2 - Japanese and German identity politics... Imperial Aspirations. Land acquisition was certainly a component, but I think the root was more about proving something to themselves, some kind of manifest destiny superiority bs.
* WW1 - One little schmuck Grand Duke gets shot and the whole world is ready to fight? This is a bunch of people who just want to fight.
* Vietnam - Containing the spread of socialism while backing allies stuck in the colonial period.
* The Pig War - my favorite war and very PNW... basically an American farmer shot a British pig in his garden near the US/Canada border. The pig was the only casualty.

Here is a funny list of other reasons people started wars... https://military.com/off-duty/4-more-of-… ...though I think that a lot of these started for the same reason as WW1 above: people can't wait to kill each other, or based on your premise.

Nationalism, religion, revenge also play into the reasons behind wars starting.

@drewcareypnw

I had to correct your comment:

* WW2 - AMERICAN, RUSSIAN, Japanese and German identity politics... Imperial Aspirations. Land acquisition was certainly a component, but I think the root was more about proving something to themselves, some kind of manifest destiny superiority AMERICAN bs

“How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan’s Attack on Pearl Harbor”

“On July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan”

“The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.”

~ After the attack, to Pearl Harbor Stimson confessed Henry L. Stimson, Secretary of War

^ Incorrect

“It makes us uncomfortable to see people willing to die for the idea of "Tribal Land" (AMERICAN INDIAN MOVEMENT) when it's fashionable to trash the idea of "America."

We need to realize that Native American Tribal Land and Freedom is worth fighting for.

This isn't a "love it or leave it," but a call to our better angels.”

TIFFY you are welcome.

Out of determination to seek justice, the American Indian Movement was born.

AIM's leaders spoke out against high racist treatment, fought for treaty rights and the reclamation of tribal land, and advocated on behalf of “urban Indians” whose situation outside the concentration camps aka “reservations” was not better full if poverty and illness...

@CJK: I'll grant you the addition of Russia to that list of WW2 war starters with identity politics/Imperial Aspirations on their minds. I'm not sure I follow you logic wrt adding the USA to that list.

Are you suggesting that the Roosevelt administration's baiting of the Japanese and leveraging of their attack to stoke popular sentiment in the USA is (a) the same as starting a war, and (b) was identity politics or Imperial Aspirations?

I'm not sure I follow you on that.

CJ off topic again

“Not acknowledging facts that don't support your worldview isn't "bravery," in fact, it's the opposite.”

UN Security Council Holds Meeting on Ukraine and Russia I LIVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pP0S9cx…

WATCH LIVE: White House press secretary Jen Psaki holds news briefing, Jen Psaki Live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwCIGW3i…

Ukraine War: Was the attack on an airport near Lviv a warning? Stuck within 50 miles of Poland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYQU32f5…

Safety concerns growing in Ukraine as Russia launches its 1st missile strike | ABCNL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMbROIhz…

China Didn't Want a Ukraine Invasion, Xi Tells Biden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb69hAxn…

Ukraine's artillery pick off Russian military vehicles on outskirts of Kyiv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGwXnfV…

American Volunteer Soldiers Used As “Cannon Fodder” In Ukraine, Jimmy Dore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH5fnlur…

Ukraine War: Prime Minister says 'Putin will fail', Boris Johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXVk2bhk…

Putin says Russia will prevail in Ukraine in speech to thousands of cheering supporters in Moscow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtOSNQRX…

Hear what Putin told large crowd amid invasion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NZxNAZd…

Xi tells Biden Russia-Ukraine fighting is in ‘no one’s interest’, Al Jazerra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2ZtHhSn…

International Court orders Russia to suspend invasion of Ukraine I ABCNL (yesterday, and they are going to have to kick Russia off of the Security Council. Biggest change since the UN's inception )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WRG-NyD…


SJG

Jeff Healy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Qb-6Qk…

Dixie / caccaplop said "...and who I shall never salute...."

I'm sure he's devastated by the news that he'll never be saluted by a weird guy whose side-gig is picking fights and posting nonsense to multiple strip club website forums.

@drewcareypnw

Sorry to break it to you, but I hope you understand.

It is important to remember that for the first hundred and seventy years of “American history”, those that became Americans were British—thus much of the USA early history was British history.

It is also worth noting that much of American culture and its principles were inherited from the British motherland.

Therefore, it should not be surprising that the U.S., as a great power, acts imperialistically because that is what great powers do.

American imperialism is the state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas.

Because it always involves the use of force and power, whether military or economic or some subtler form, imperialism has often been considered morally reprehensible.

America technically qualifies as an ‘empire’, and one of the most morally reprehensible in the history of humanity, because has accumulated the experience and knowledge of the motherland and added more despicable ways to exercise its power.

lol ... sure you are.

^ No one who fought in Vietnam, against Soviet weaponry, would compliment the man who spoke glowingly of the USSR.

This loser trolls this board under two aliases and SCL under about five.

Yet I doubt he's seen a (non-related) woman's vagina in his life!

^ Vietnam, lol. You weren't out of your daddy's nutsack by 9/11.

Go back to SCL, loser!

@cjk: "Sorry to break it to you, but I hope you understand."

Don't be sorry, you're not letting me down. However I am afraid that I don't understand your point. You seem to be implying the USA's geopolitical tone over a long period is Imperialistic, and therefore their actions at the beginning of WW2 must therefore have also been Imperialistic. This might be a reasonable point in support of an argument, but it's not evidence in support of standalone statement, and it certainly doesn't answer my question...

Are you suggesting that the Roosevelt administration's baiting of the Japanese and leveraging of their attack to stoke popular sentiment in the USA is (a) the same as starting a war, and (b) was identity politics or Imperial Aspirations?

Want to take another swing at this?

@drew, CJ is a troll who whatabouts everything with bUt aMeRiCa dId tHaT!!!

Even when it has no relevance to the current discussion.

He isn't worth arguing with.

Franklin Roosevelt responded to Japans atrocities in China and imposed an oil embargo. The Pearl Harbor attack was a sneak attack and 2400 Americans died.

The Battle for Kyiv Looms as a Long and Bloody Conflict
https://www.yahoo.com/news/battle-kyiv-l…

SJG

X - Burning House of Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kbDuaio…

@Tetra: I know. But I like to see if I can draw the man out of the troll. CJ's argument is weak because he's running on troll-autopilot, but maybe he has a good one in there if pressed...


@SJG: Exactly. That X video is great too, I miss the 80s sometimes.

@drew, no, as long as he's been pressed, he's repeated the same few quotes, with an occasional break to use another TUSCLers words out of context, as 99% of his posts. There is no there there.

You might have noticed something else here, good people stick together, and shitbirds stick together. You can tell a lot about a man by the company they keep.
Some or the latter have personas that are mostly or all based on lies. Or come here just to tell everyone they're having fun wrong.

Disturbing footage of war being waged against civilians, and the Jesuit footage of Nanking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZIv6uLE…

SJG

@drewcareypnw

I will answer your question:

Q: Are you suggesting that the Roosevelt administration's baiting of the Japanese and leveraging of their attack to stoke popular sentiment in the USA is (a) the same as starting a war, and (b) was identity politics or Imperial Aspirations?

A: (a) the war around the world had already started, the USA wanted a excuse to get in for financial reasons.

(b) and imperial ambitions

The Roosevelt administration had been playing hardball with the Japanese for years.

The U.S. had embargoed all sorts of strategic goods and raw materials to Japan: weapons, aviation fuel, scrap iron.

And in the the summer of 1941, Washington had actually placed a freeze on all Japanese assets in the U.S. and made it impossible for Japan to purchase oil.

The USA at the time was deep into the process of converting the economy from consumer goods to wartime production.

The USA imperialism is by some considered to have begun in the late 1800’s but in reality started by the USA expansion over the existing cultures and societies of native Americans by genocide.

The United States as his motherland empire, uses military conquest, gunboat diplomacy, unequal treaties, subsidization of preferred factions, economic penetration through private companies followed by a diplomatic or forceful intervention when those interests are threatened, or regime change.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
UNDENIABLE REALITY

@CLK: thoughtful response, thank you.

wrt A) I was always under the impression that most Americans wanted to avoid foreign (esp European) entanglements at the time, while elements in government felt the need to goad them into a war. I thought that this had more to do with preempting an inevitable conflict on our own shores. You cite financial reasons, which is broad. Can you be more specific?

^ I'll hold off on affirming the UNDENIABLE REALITY part for the moment though... =)

@drewcareypnw

From 1797 to 1941, the USA government has colluded with civilian industries when the country has gone to war.

At some time the USA government owned their own shipyards and weapons manufacturing facilities which they relied on.

With the experience from WWI came a massive shift in the way that the American government armed the military.

Just before and during World War II the USA wealthy leader coordinated civilian industries and shift them into wartime production.

At the end of World War II arms production in the United States counted for 40 percent of the GDP.

This is the system behind the armed forces of the United States, it is a historic system that today maintains a close link among defense contractors, the Pentagon, and politicians.

Today this historic “unholy union” is known as the military–industrial complex.

Sure, the government got industry to shift to wartime production, and it has remained proportionally high compared to other countries as a % of gdp. But that’s not the same as “started war for financial reasons”. That’s switching correlation for causation. What makes you say the war was started “for financial reasons”?

@drewcareypnw

To answer your question:

Q: What makes you say the war was started “for financial reasons”?

A: History, math and common sense.

From the Boston Tea Party, where some white men disguised as American Indians, destroyed an entire shipment of tea sent by the East India Company to eventually create a war, to the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, a made up attack used as a pretext for escalation of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam war, to the fake weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, to the Invasion of Afghanistan, etc etc etc and now Ukraine 🇺🇦 some Americans keep manufacturing conflicts and wars for the financial benefit of the wealthy owners/members of the the USA military–industrial complex.

Remember there is always an economic motive underlying every single USA made-up conflicts/wars even if the stated aim of the war is presented to the public as something more noble.

^ Just like I asked Iceefag , I’ll pose the same question to you CJKunt, has America ever done anything righteous?

https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/…

Zelensky nationalizes TV news and restricts opposition parties


A real motivational role model for us 🤡

^ Still better than Putin and a victim of a war of aggression. There are no perfect beings on the world stage.

^ More incoherent nonsense from the biggest troll and Ukraine relief fundraiser here

Tetraplop you have zero credibility. In your view ukraine can have neonazi batallions in its military and their president can ban opposition and can control all media and jts okay. But civil rights groups in yhe US are criminals for protesting.

Tetraplop work on your language comprehension skills if you don't understand. If you're feigning Stupidity thinking it makes you look smart it just proves you're atupid

"But civil rights groups in yhe US are criminals for protesting."

You're calling Antifa and BLM "civil rights groups; you talking about credibility is a laugher. Anyone else on this thread, feel free to chime in on who has more credibility. I guarantee you'll only attract the trolls.

You can try to whatabout the war all you want. Nothing can hide the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine.

^ Wow, I said he'd attract the trolls. I didn't think it would be so quickly. Greenville High must have let out early today.

^ More unoriginal babble

You have a problem with antifa and blm but not ukrainian neonazis like yhe azov batallion. You go bat shit crazy about democrats but support zelensky nationalizing the media and Banning opposition parties. Kicking them out of the gov.

But then you claim anything anyone writes is babble. Maybe you have an undiagnosed learning disability.

Another Putin pretext evaporates as he destroys a Russian-speaking city.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/why…

An opinion ed piece. What learning disability do you have retard?

"You have a problem with antifa and blm but not ukrainian neonazis like yhe azov batallion."
Is the Azov battalion (you misspelled it) killing Jews and burning cities? Funny, they're fighting on behalf of a Jewish president.

"You go bat shit crazy about democrats but support zelensky nationalizing the media and Banning opposition parties."
Did I say that was a good thing? No, I said that they're still nowhere near as bad as Putin. Try reading, asshat.

"An opinion ed piece."
That Putin is leveling a Russian-speaking, generally Russian sympathizing city is a fact. But you're going to call it "fake news" because you'll call anything that challenges your preconceived narrative one.

"What learning disability do you have retard?"
I've got brainiac creds that run circles around "pretend pimp from Vegas." If I have one learning disability, it's "preternatural intolerance for dumbasses."

The neonazis in Ukraine have been killing Russians in lugansk and donbas since 2014. Now they're terrorizing people with zelenskys blessings. But of course you keep making excuses for them.

So the world according to tetraplop... Ukrainian neonazis and dictator good. American Civil rights groups bad.

And if anyone points your bs out you feign Stupidity and pretend it's babble thinking looking like a retard makes you look smart.

Some neo-Nazis, fighting on behalf of a Jewish president. They have no representation in Ukraine's parliament. Yet somehow you dismiss evidence of Putin doing far worse.

You keep misquoting me, and calling American criminals "civil rights groups." Look who thinks he's clever.

If I wanted to look like a retard, I'd call myself a pimp yet post semi-literate shit.

But you just want to provoke, because I guess pimps get paid by the post.

Putin has got to go, he keeps talking nuclear.

SJG

PBS NewsHour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5iGGLJM…

The pretend pimp from and the philosophy cunt don’t believe a word they are saying, this is just two fools shitposting to get attention

^ Their shitposting has raised some good money. And I'm getting my annual bonus, two tax refunds, and a metric fuckton of consulting. There's plenty more where that came from!

This Ukraine Conflict will end when Vladimir Putin is dead.

SJG

@Tetradon
Notice I asked both of those fools if they had anything good to say about America, being as neither has responded I’ll double down on my contention that they don’t belong here and they should leave this country forthwith and settle somewhere more appropriate like Russia or Iran or Venezuela. They don’t deserve the blessings of living here.

^ That day can't come soon enough.

That was for SJG.

@25, yes, why should anyone with the means they claim to have want to live in this wicked land? They could move somewhere like Denmark that is pleasant but largely inert on the world stage. Or if they have the courage of their convictions, one of the three you mentioned.

Zelensky nationalizes TV news and restricts opposition parties


https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/…

A real motivational role model for us 🤡

^ Derp

$2,319 donated to Americares!

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7898…

Twentyfive

I will play along and answer your question:

has America ever done anything righteous?

The dictionary definition of righteous is:

Adjective. Characterized by, proceeding from, or in accordance with accepted standards of morality, justice, or uprightness; virtuous: a righteous man.

It is important to remember that for the first hundred and seventy years of “American history”, those that became Americans were British—thus much of the USA early history was British history.

It is also worth noting that much of that American culture and its principles were inherited from the Imperialist British motherland.

As a country America has never done anything righteous; because the people at the top have always acted with selfishness and injustice against others and the poor and the weak.

The imperial behavior of the United States, is seen in the aggressive encroachment of one people (the USA) upon the territory of another, (Native Americans) resulting in the subjugation of that people to alien (the USA) rule.

Native Americans were violently attacked and killed, and the survivors along with captured African Americans were subjugated in ways designed to remold them into people more appropriately conformed to imperial desires.

American imperialism experienced its pinnacle from the late 1800s through the years following World War II.

During this “Age of Imperialism,” the United States exerted political, social, and economic control over countries such as the Philippines, Cuba, Germany, Austria, Korea, and Japan.

One of the most notable examples of American imperialism in this age was the annexation of Hawaii in 1898, which allowed the United States to gain possession and control of all ports, buildings, harbors, military equipment, and public property that had formally belonged to the Government of the Hawaiian Islands.

On January 17, 1893, the last monarch of the Kingdom of Hawaii, Queen Liliuokalani, was deposed in a coup d’état led largely by American citizens who were opposed to Liliuokalani’s attempt to establish a new Constitution.

This action eventually resulted in Hawaii’s becoming America’s 50th state in 1959.

Today’s American imperialism” can be seen in the economic, military, and cultural “influence” of the United States internationally

^ so it’s time for you to leave, you belong somewhere else not here, BTW you didn’t answer my question all you did was repeat your laundry list of complaints
You’re useless.

Twentyfive

I will play along and answer your question again

Q: has America ever done anything righteous?

A: NO

America’s birth was the birth of a new empire, like mother (Britain) like daughter (USA)

Your statement, in a variety of forms;

“If you don’t like America, then leave!”

Has been passed down to generation after generation of egotistical, racist hate groups considered right-wing extremist and terrorist.

To suggest that an American hates America just because as a citizen criticizes all the terrible genocides and crimes that America’s military–industrial complex has committed, and does continue to commit, since the beginning of its existence is nonsense.

The bigger problem are people who think that America is untouchable and that it should not be criticized

My country, right or wrong;

if right, to be kept right;

and if wrong, to be set right.

The whole idea of "hating America" is, frankly, a stupid notion used by those who can't stand criticism.

You’re not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can’t face reality.

Wrong is wrong, no matter what, when where or who does it or who says it”

@cjk: “ A: History, math and common sense….(etc)‘

Saying something makes sense to you, and showing information that directly supports a premise are two different things. I’m starting to think that your position on this subject is little more than your personal prejudice plus some kind of knee jerk anti-Americanism. This is a lot less interesting than “I have actual new information for you”.

Can you give an actual historical fact and not a generalization or inference, that supports your statement “started war for financial reasons”?

CJKunt you are an idiot, I have no problem with criticism, the shit you are spouting is nothing more than anti-American propaganda, taken from the worst despots that have ever lived. I can see you have no intention of answering my question, so take your condescending bitch ass off to someplace else, conversation with you is as useless, as tits on a bull, GTFOH.

And two more TUSCLers learn that you cannot have a productive discussion with one so allergic to facts.

^ Off the school bus and right to trolling strip club sites.

What a LOSER!

War crimes?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article…

Ukrainian doctor tells TV interviewer he has ordered his staff to CASTRATE Russian soldiers because they are 'cockroaches'

@drewcareypnw

Regardless of your opinion and my opinion or anyone else’s opinion.

The undeniable fact and unavoidable reality is:

The British empire is the most commonly cited precedent for the global power currently wielded by the United States.

America is the heir to the empire in both senses: offspring in the colonial era, successor today.

These empires main goal is desire for more resources from others, financial, economic benefits, a better standard of living for its own people, and the desire for power among its leaders.

^ U N S U B S T A N T I A T E D O P I N I O N

^unsubstantiated opinion. Go away tetraplop

^ Troll. Go pick up your sister's chlamydia meds before you pimp her out

^^ hot heard this or anything like it before. Not getting much info about state of those Ukrainians have taken prisoner. Maybe there will be some info and International Red Cross inspections.

SJG

^ Meanwhile Putin is shelling civilians waiting for aid. These are little distractions from that elephant in the room.

Real castrations of POW's would be very serious indeed. But as of now I still have to classify it as only words. So far.


SJG

Meanwhile, Putin has the blood of his own people on his hands.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/23/europe/uk…

YES!

SJG

^ Trolling two strip club sites instead of doing his math homework!

https://m.stripclublist.com/usa/RI/club_…

What a freak. His "recession proof business" is sucking dicks behind the bleachers during fifth period.

@CJK: "These empires main goal is desire for more resources..."

Again with no information to back up your claim. I'll be honest with you: I'm very skeptical of the motivations of great powers, and I'm very comfortable criticizing American foreign policy, among other aspects of our country. But I'm also not willing to accept "America Bad" as an basis for supporting some statement any more than "America Good".

@drew, you've said you try to bring the man from underneath the troll, but CJ is arguably the most dedicated troll here. He recycles the same few aMeRiCa bAd lines that pass for profoundness among the left.

There is no "there" there. Do not engage.

@tetra... I appreciate your position. I also enjoy understanding what other people think, even if I disagree with them or think they're bullshitting. I particularly enjoy it when I get someone who spends a lot of time trolling to engage on a more real basis. Hence the drawing the man from the troll concept. Engaging is fun for me.

@drew, I occasionally have some great discussions here. There are some smart, well-spoken people. However, there are others who just want attention to fill their meaningless little lives. Trolling a strip club forum is easier than getting a hobby or a girlfriend, albeit ultimately less rewarding.

I only bust trolls on a few threads, mostly threads past their sell-by date, like this one. Not to mention, it keeps Bari Weiss' great piece up top.

You can tell a lot about someone by their enemies. I am proud to have run afoul of the most odious shitbirds on this board like Caca, Icee, and CJ. But I turn lead into gold but letting them fundraise for good causes.

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7898…

Wonder who they'll raise for next!?

@tetra: I agree there are occasionally some good conversations here. They're usually the ones about stripping, but even then there's an occasional non hobby related post that's time well spent. Obviously my style of engagement with controversial personas is a little different than yours, but I'll hand it to you: your troll busting has given me many chuckles. The fundraising thing was very creative and also funny.

@drew, yes. Truth be told, strip clubbing has fallen down my list of hobbies. I overdid it in 2021 and it doesn't carry the thrill it used to. Maybe I'll get back to it, maybe I'll just cherish the memories.

But other than 3 buddies (2 of whom are clubbers), I can't talk strip clubbing at the depths I can talk with the mongers here. Some of y'all have amazing stories, or can just talk the absurdities of the culture. It would be awesome to do a sociology PhD dissertation on the strip club milieu. I'm sure someone has. Because, _knowledge_, right?

Strip clubbers tend to be successful, educated men, because this hobby isn't cheap. A lot of the guys here have made a lot of money and accumulated great life experiences. Ergo, even non-strip-club conversation, one can learn a lot.

The fundraising is real--I didn't invent those invoices, even as I redacted identifying information. I'm having a damn good 2022 across a couple businesses, and keeping expenses low (see above, LOL). And I'll keep donating as long as there's a humanitarian crisis, and fucksticks make me see a need to.

^ My fundraiser says what?

Basically you troll anyone who doesn't share your right wing paradigms

^ Lol you've said a billion times this was Biden's war. And Cacaplop is (pretends to be) pretty right wing.

I welcome the hatred of misbehaving idiots.

You're an annoying obnoxious troll thinking he's some sort of genius. You argue like a sheltered 12 year old

^ YOU'RE here on MY thread accusing ME of trolling???

Hahaha!

I argue like someone with a grasp of logic. You argue like a special ed kid who gets rattled when he hears words he doesn't understand.

You repeat war propaganda. That's not logic

^ You call anything you don't like "war propaganda." That's not logic.

Just to let you all know;

There are actual differences between the U.S. and European colonial empires however those differences do not justify the complete denial of U.S. colonialism and imperialism in American culture and society

I will never deny that America is the winner, winner, chicken dinner, type of country. Only Progressives worship failure: its why they aren't Americans.

Tetraplop. Youre making excuses for neonazi batallions in the Ukrainian army and supporting zelenskys banningnof opposition political parties and his control of all media. Meanwhile you act like American Civil rights groups are criminals and promote vigilantism against them a la rittenhouse. You're a sheltered weirdo who uses a strip club forum as his political soap box

If you came at people like this in real life. Pretending to be a dumber Ben Shapiro on a high school debate team. You'd get punched in the face or called a fucking idiot.


"I'm going to count your words and donate to a right wing cause. That will show you. What what? I don't understand you don't make sense you have no logic. Prove your points with a bibliography and foot notes ."

Fucking moron

@icee, I'm sure that made sense in your head. God forbid someone try to have a factual discussion here rather than repeating the same three falsehoods.

And don't talk about what you'd do to me in real life. You'd pump my gas and call me "sir."

Tetraplop be like

"I'm going to count your words and donate to a right wing cause. That will show you. What what? I don't understand you don't make sense you have no logic. Prove your points with a bibliography and foot notes ."

^ Yes, evidence rather than the words of a high school troll and a pretend pimp.

Lulz

When will the Legend show and triumph?

^ Look at this little dick sucker, right off the bus with the $50 he earned behind the bleachers today!

Get tested, drug resistant gonorrhea is a public health problem these days.

@drewcareypnw

The undeniable fact is that:

“A war of aggression, sometimes also war of conquest, is a military conflict waged without the justification of self-defense, usually for territorial gain and subjugation.”

Resulting in economic benefits for the aggressor, conqueror in terms of wealth and benefits/profits for the leadership/monarchy.

All the wars created/waged by the leaders/monarchs of the British and American empires were and are to this day wars of aggression for profit and take place outside the USA, and of course the stated aim of the war is presented to the public as something “noble” like protecting freedom, yes the freedom to conquest, plunder and steal of course…

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
UNDENIABLE

^ You're boring

You're one of the dumbest idiots on here. Calling people boring or pretending like you can't understand what they write when they don't humor your comical Ali act makes you look exactly as dumb as you are.


https://youtu.be/vC5UTUAxgpE

The best of comical Ali 🤡

LOL Icee, you're repeating the words of the one idiot here who might be dumber than you!

Damn right I don't humor trolls who aren't hear to have a civil discussion. I'll match your energy--you're cool on a thread, I'll be cool, you want to troll or mock or call names I'll pay you back with interest.

Oh, and here's a hint, if you want to be understood better, write clearly. In English, not semi-literate Vegas pretend pimp. And proofread. You're already intellectually disadvantaged, don't hurt your cause further.

There's no civil discussion with bigots who think American Civil rights groups are criminals while they support ukrainian neonazis.

And if you think Antifa and BLM are "civil rights groups," you need medication, not convincing.

I don't socialize with bigots and don't coddle them.

^ Nothing's stopping you from fucking right off this thread and putting me on ignore.

“There are two ways to be fooled.

One is to believe what isn’t true;

the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
~ Philosopher, poet, social critic
~ Born 5 May 1813 Copenhagen, Denmark–Norway
~ Died 11 November 1855 Copenhagen, Denmark

^ yawn

When you support Ukraine

https://youtu.be/GoqZ8gPKKis

https://youtu.be/pwue0RpMaPE

Ukraine is fighting an unjust Russian invasion

Icey, you are listening to total bullshit.

SJG

^ Everything he says about Zelensky doing something dictatorial, which I don't agree with, or the Azov Battalion, whose ideology I find reprehensible, is a distraction from the largest truth of this situation.

Ukraine is fighting an unjust Russian invasion.

Slava Ukraini
Fuck Putin

Sjg it's the truth. Zelensky just banned all opposition parties and took control of the media. And he's fighting to keep himself in power. Youre the one posting bull shit and war propaganda. And trolladon is a fucking idiot promoting the far right. That's why he has no problem with neonazis or zelenskys dictatorial moves. But its okay coz you seem ti agree.

Tetraplop you feign to oppose zelensky and yhe neonazis yet support them and donate yo their cause. Stfu bigot

You call anything right of AOC "far right." God, you're almost as boring as CJ.

Ukraine is fighting an unjust Russian invasion

You can't deflect from that fact.

The Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Putin invaded. Putin is killing their people.

Newshour Today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Kz2J93…

War in Ukraine: The end of Vladimir Putin? • FRANCE 24 English
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_6E_xu4…

SJG

"Stfu bigot"

Keep chirping, little big man.

Every post helps undo Russian aggression.

^ You've got a long night after of eating Hot Pockets and jerking off to anime porn again.

With an occasional break to post here and combat some Russian aggression, of course.

For the latter, I thank you.

You'd rather donate to the neonazis and zelensky than blm that says a lot

Cacaplop said "you've been trolling since 6 am eastern time."

From the guy who has been trolling since 6 AM roughly 5 or 6 years ago...

"You'd rather donate to the neonazis and zelensky than blm"

It says that Americares provides disaster relief for civilians on the ground, nothing directly to fighters, and BLM has yet more chapter heads indicted for fraud. Somehow you never address this.

Basically aiding the regime. If you cared about Ukraine you'd support peace negotiations but yeah zelensky had the main peace negotiator killed. Aiding the regimes stability prolongs the war.

You can overlook neonazi battalions and a dictator but blm is unacceptable 🤡

You have no credibility

^ Peace could be had tomorrow if Putin withdrew. You always forget that part.

And allow zelensky to bomb Eastern Ukraine and let nato move in. Zelensky is an American proxy. The only reason he keeps fighting is the American money and weapons our tax dollars pay for.

Now shed more crocodile tears for Ukraine coz you're having a mccarthyist wet dream.

You're anti russian and pro war
Not pro ukrainian . As you don't oppose war and instead just spam tuscl with war propaganda

I think war should be the last resort.

But 200,000 troops rolling across a country's border, equipped with a supply of blood and thermobaric weapons, you have to fight.

And I am not anti-Russian. As President Biden reached out to the Russian people reminding them of how we were allies in WW2

X-Burning House of Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LInxU2dW…

^ More unsubstantiated slander. You seem to know what everyone thinks. Zelensky, Biden, me. They teach ESP in pimp school?

Lulz

Slava Ukraini
Fuck Putin

Watch Russia awkwardly move its own goal posts...

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ukraine…

Before all this started, I assumed that any Russian invasion would be limited to the Donbas region. That region already leans pro-Russia and Ukraine probably would have let it go after showing some false indignation. The international sanctions in response would have been in the "wrist-slapping" category and gone in a year or three.

I was wrong about that. Putin went for the entire Ukrainian enchilada, simultaneously underestimating the cohesion of the international response against the invasion, and overestimating the competency of his own military. Weirdly, Russia is now re-framing the narrative behind its entire invasion along the lines of "So... actually ... we only wanted Donbas all along." We'll see where all of this goes, but it looks like the Russians are preparing for the possibility that they can't get the ball over the goal line.

So, right now there's a Russian "victory" in Ukraine might only equate to gaining the Donbas region (maybe) and justifying the existence of NATO for the next 50 years. It will be interesting to see how this affects Putin's hold on power. This "special action" has hurt a lot of powerful people in Russia, both in the military and industry, and filled a lot of body bags with dead Russian soldiers.

@Ishmael, bingo. According to my friend who has actually studied this shit, the stench from this invasion will last long past Putin. Their arms sales are going to plummet--the Russian army is getting horrible results with their own hardware. Europe is re-arming and orienting away from Russian fossil fuels.

Ukraine won't get into NATO, but they're not going to stop fighting for an arrangement that lets Russia come back at Kyiv in a few years.

That was a strategic blunder.

Fuck Putin.
Fuck Putin again.

If Donbas is shaved off and becomes an autonomous region, then there's a remote chance that Ukraine will join NATO. Donbas would become the buffer that allows Ukraine to enter NATO while Russia holds onto the standard of not having NATO country directly on its border.

It's a remote chance, and it wouldn't happen for years, but it could happen.

That's idiotic. But keep up with the mccarthyist wet dream what if scenarios.

What's best for Ukraine is the zelensky regime being toppled.

^ Yeah, why didn't they just grab their ankles and let Russia take over. Not that that hasn't resulted in famine and genocide before.

Dumbass.

Lulz

So as this seems to be the time when tanks give way to shoulder launched weapons:

I asked this question for a reason, and how far should you go and how wild should it get?
https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7806…

And this stuff looks purely defensive, but is it always going to be that way?

Slava Ukraini
Fuck Putin

Wow if Icy is defending white supremacist Putin this is a new level of trolling

Ukraine is the country with neonazi brigades and banned minority political groups and language rights

@CMI If the Russians had originally stated the Donbas as their objective, and not poisoned the well that might have worked, problem now is the heavy handed, clumsy way that the Russians invaded Ukraine, has turned the entire country against them even the Russian speaking places, the only way that Ukraine and Russia reconcile is going to involve getting rid of Putin, which judging by the way Russia has clumsily moved the goal posts, and changed their objective while claiming everything is going according to plan, leads me to believe that there are more powerful forces in Russia than Mr Putin, and Putin is in danger of ending up like Moammar Khadafy or Saddam Hussein.

^ Giving your mouth a break to work your fingers, I see.

Get that throat infection checked!

^ Look at this little self-post-liking dick sucker!

cacaplop said "Today, Brandon the babbling idiot told the world that Putin has to go !!!! How will the US with its Woke military makes the leader of one of the strongest countries in the world with nuclear power and a mighty army leave power ????"

Setting aside all of the weird keywords you feel compelled to use in every single one of your posts, the U.S. may not need to do anything at all directly (and I don't believe it plans to). Putin seems to be digging that hole all by himself. Whether or not he climbs out... who knows? But nothing Russia has done in Ukraine for the past month has improved its condition, and its recent declaration of "victory" and moving the goal posts is obviously damage control born out of humiliation.

The reality is that Russia has a relatively small and fragile economy that (to its detriment) depends solely on energy to stay afloat. Now recognizing more fully that Russia has an erratic autocrat as a leader, Europe is going to work hard to make sure it's not dependent on Russian energy at least for as long as Putin is in power, and that's going to dent the bank accounts of a lot of powerful people in Russia.

Neither America or Europe need to take direct action. All they need to do is keep applying economic pressure. Keep that up long enough and the military / industry power brokers in Russia will eventually tap Putin on the shoulder to say "Hey man, you know, 20 years is a pretty good run...".

Though I don't like Biden, I agree that Putin needs to go. As far as what he said in Poland goes ... meh. He said something that Eastern Europe wanted to hear and then his Communications Office sanitized it. Trump's comms office spent nearly every single day walking back the crazy-pants things he'd say out loud. The one thing that Trump and Biden have in common is their non-stop war on syntax.

Sustained economic pressure, and the gentle steady hand of Joe Biden, and this will all work out.

SJG

"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to fuck things up."

- his old boss Barack Obama

I think Biden has a hand in this incident coming to pass, what with showing weakness in Afghanistan and saying things to jack up oil prices, but once it happened he's been doing a decent job.

Ironically it's his old boss who looks like the fuckup, with his "reset" and seeing Putin flex in Georgia and Crimea.

Weakness was when Trump pulled the troops of the Syrian border so that Putin could get in.

Getting us out of Afghanistan was not not a pretty picture, but it has to be done.

Joe Biden cannot be provoked. He stays cool and keeps his eye on the bigger picture. Total opposite of Trump.

SJG

X
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kbDuaio…

Putin did not advance under Trump. Only under Obama and Biden.

Afghanistan we bumbled the execution. The image of civilians hiding in wheel wells is burned into the national consciousness. It did not have to end that way.

Putin got what the Russians have always wanted, or at least very close to it, the Warm Water Port.

Afghanistan did look like Saigon 1975.

There are books out not which analyze it from US entry to the end.

https://www.amazon.com/Afghanistan-Paper…


SJG

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

T H E
U N D E N I A B L E
S A D
B U T
T R U E
R E A L I TY

People’s, living in White privileged America, comments demonstrating that:

“The US population is generally ignorant, mis-educated, and deliberately lied-to, about international affairs even more than domestic politics.

They think of themselves as “America” and say, “we” and “us” when speaking about the national state of which they really know little and have less control.”

“It is the sufferings of the many which pay for the luxuries of the few...”

~ Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg
~ Born: 3rd January 2003 , Sweden
~ Occupation: Student, environmental activist

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
U N D E N I A B L E

^ jejune

^ Obsessed with me. Stop it, I like women.

Pray for everyone else's well being, breathing that gas!

Trolling this board under TWO names.

What a loser!

Tootradon!

^ Naah. Haven't had Mexican in a bit.

^ I'm sure that made sense in your head.

Go back to the bleachers. You might get a couple more fivers before the bell.

Tetraplop
Cjkunt
Sjg
Meat
20fag
Et al
Be like

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7903…

^ Just admit, IQ75cee, at this point you know you're raising money for Ukraine, and like it.

^ My point that you're a dick sucking loser is self evident.