Political polarization

Assuming that this is a serious discussion, we might start with how we frame issues. We might consider dropping party affiliations (democratic vs republican, left vs right) and even polarizing polls (we should not be asked to approve of Biden (or Trump). We should be asked to review individual policies (e.g., abortion, public health measures for COVID), rather than pledge uncritical allegiance to a leader or to a political party.

Those who approve of a particular policy, should be asking how will we know if this particular policy/decision worked and what are the next steps if it does not work. Those who do not approve of a policy, should be invited to offer an alternative policy/solution (more than just "I hate the proposal and all of those who support this proposal?)

If you are serious about reducing polarization and promoting consensus building and practical action, you might take a look at this organization: https://www.nolabels.org/

Actually, the Nazis were also far left. NAtional SOcialists - NAZI. Socialists. The right v. left was made up by Stalin to generate the zeal necessary for a staunch defense of the Soviet motherland. Communism, Naziism, fascism (Castro, Mao, Mussolini, Francisco Franco, Maduro) are all leftist political paradigms. The ultimate culmination of right-wing ideology would be pure democracy where every resident gets 1 vote, and the 50% +1 majority carries the day. Of course, that kind of populism would also be disastrous.

The Senate was created as the Upper House by the Founding Fathers to vote with more than a simple majority (and not be elected by popular vote). This would have helped to ensure that actions and legislation approved by the Senate were better than just trends and moe than a simple majority agreed that it was the right thing.

I blame media for the division - all of media. Television, books, newspaper and magazine, websites, social media accounts - they are all driven by purchases and clicks. Think of hate clicks when some Bloomberg jerk writes a column calling people who host large family holidays a murderer for not requiring proof of vaccination to attend. It still generated traffic, and traffic/viewership/purchases are all driven by a "is it bleeds, it leads" philosophy because it works. That mindset, because of the pervasive nature of media, has saturated our entire culture. It's inescapable without disconnecting from modern society. It would be great if the AOCs, political squads, Ted Cruz's and the Dons of the worled could dial it back, but their popularity is driven by their divisiveness. The careful and measured thought does not generate enough followers to matter.

Biden is already the worst President in history. The best start would be to end all immigration and stop welfare Democrats from coming here.

In 2012 my son’s high school did a poll. They asked students about their position on issues and also who they preferred between Obama and Romney. Obama was at about 60% but Romney’s position on the individual issues was favored by over 65%.

The school was about 55% white at the time.

Just another way for elites to divide us while we are being fucked raw

The real issue with government is corruption and incompetence. Approval ratings are extremely low for every branch of the federal government. As government has grown in size, the potential for corruption has also grown. We have the greatest gathering of grifters in Washington DC in our history. They claim to represent Republicans or Democrats but they are just in it to enrich themselves.

We need a house cleaning of revolutionary proportions in our Federal government.

@docsavage

I will play along and answer your question:

Q: What do you think is the cause of this political polarization and can it be reversed?

A: I think that; It’s never been about left vs right or Democrats vs Republicans.

“More like 0.1% of regular ass humans (the founding fathers, the politicians, the religious leaders, the puppet presidents, the rich and powerful, etc etc) tricking the rest of us into fighting among ourselves while they rob us blind.”

~ SanchoRG, Texas
~ Joined Aug, 2017 Last Seen Nov, 2021

“The American so called “Two Party System” is really two sides of the same coin”.

Both political parties serve the interests of the rich and powerful; corporate robber barons and politicians, who have become rich through ruthless and unscrupulous business practices.”

The USA is a nation in which income inequality has existed from the beginning, a situation that hurts many more people than it helps.

The USA was created for the benefit of a few Englishmen that wanted to be Opulent...

“Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other.

They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority.”

~ James Madison, Jr.
~ “The Father of the Constitution"
~ the fourth president of the United States from 1809 to 1817, expansionist, philosopher.
~ Born: March 16, 1751 - Port Conway, Virginia, British America
~ Died: June 28, 1836 (aged 85) Montpelier, Virginia, U.S.

The only way to “reverse it” it would be having a real democracy so the wealthy minority would be outvoted and government would be overrun by the majority of the people, as long as they can really appreciate and value their fellow humans, and instead of fighting or competing against each other, they collaborate and help each other, and realize that they all be better off that way.

Today and in the future more and more people, no matter their nationality, color, race or ethnicity can continue making the world a better place to be, with no places suffering with the pain of injustice, suffering with the pain of oppression, the world will be transformed into a place where enjoying freedom and justice will be the norm for all...

Biden's recent approval from Democrats isn't 90% -- it's more like 75%. As things stand now, the Democrats are going to get slaughtered in the midterms.

There've been countless articles about the role of social media in creating polarization. Where voters get their news is often their own filtered information bubble. Conspiracy theories run rampant and at a velocity that would be impossible before tech companies like FB and Twitter. Trump was master at disseminating propaganda in bite-sized nuggets on Twitter. It's as if Trump disappeared after he was banned on Twitter.

We vote for all these assholes, making it our fault.

I blame the new media business model, particularly social media.

For one, you don't get clicks by making people think, you get it from feeding their pre existing beliefs and whipping them into a frenzy. To some extent that's always been the case, but it's more direct and magnified now.

Second, it's easier for ourselves to join affinity groups and self segregate. Most political groups and message boards lean sharply one way, swarming on anyone who disagrees. You can avoid anyone who would otherwise challenge you. This also whips people into more of a frenzy and prevents them from learning the other viewpoint. We also get increasingly convinced of our own righteousness.

Third, as a result of this, we elect people at the margins who keep the cycle going. The problem with AOCs and MTGs is that they actually do represent us as we get crazier and more polarized.

I just know this thread is going to attract shitheads who make my point.

What does that really mean, when people say they approve of a politician they wouldn't vote for?
Maybe people are just less phony now.

What people were told starting in the 80s was, you won't have as much job security, but the economy will boom, there'll be better jobs to replace the old ones. You won't have a pension, but a 401K is as good or better. But that was bullshit for most people. White people under 40 are less likely to see non-whites as different from them, just fellow screwed-over people. Whereas, white people over 40 see the US looking less like Europe demographically, and more like the rest of world, and they are easily tricked into thinking that's why they are screwed over.

It seems like every family has an extreme member somewhere roaming on both sides. A great example would be a work colleague who said his side of the family doesn’t believe COVID exists where his wife’s side is cancelling all holiday get togethers a over OMICRON.

Just one example, it’s going to be hard to change peoples opinions these days thanks to the constant access to news (real and fake). People are having trouble deciphering what is fact and what is opinion. Gotta admit at times I get lost too.

I don't believe any of you partisans really want to have a debate, all that's happening here is every one is stating an a opinion as an absolute, I believe with the exception of those folks that really have no opinion and just post shit to rile everyone up, it's not so difficult to get along with others if you really want to.
I get along just fine with many, with whom my opinion differs, and many of my closest friends have different political preferences, some of you try to pigeonhole everyone and misrepresent their opinions and statements, if it wasn't for that we probably could get along just fine.
I disagree that if you aren't completely one or the other, you are different from the majority. Most people have varying degrees of right leaning opinions and left leaning opinions. It's much more complicated and most people are actually centrist.

^ Include yourself in your post.

If we could trace the polarization back in time, I think we’d go back to the protests of the 1960s. Then those people populated University sociology, education, journalism, and liberal arts faculties. Their students made their way into the media where they wanted to “ make a difference”.

Unlike you I don't hate anyone, I'm enjoying myself, and my life too much, to waste my energy on the shit that you keep stirring

“Unlike you I don't hate anyone“

Does that include how you feel about Trump ?

^ I have my opinions, but I don't hold honest opinions against anyone, read my past statements, yourself, and I do get along with many who hold different political opinions, the ones I don't get along with are almost always the one's who disrespect my right to see things differently.
As far as calling anybody out, c'est la vie, a broken clock can be right twice a day.

^ Says the guy who polices every review to call it a club ad

Please Mark that's just stupid, I haven't posted things just to get a rise out of anyone, like Baldwin has killed more people than the new variant, exactly what does Baldwin have to do with your covid fixation except that you like to post stupid shit where you make wild off topic statements and repeat proven false hoods, with statements calculated to start a stupid argument,

Is 1930s-1940s Germany the only thing people can compare bad things to. You lack creativity.

The last time the US was this divided was Civil War era. History has shown one side was clearly right (The North). At this point I think the North is right again.

Scrubbie don't blame me for your frequent episodes of off the wall posting, that's all on you.

The only thing that can lose it for the democrats is voter apathy.

People need to turn out coz like the presidential election its about beating Republicans and that's it.

Good thing is Republicans will only turn out in droves for pro Trump candidates. Mainstream Republicans will have a tough time.

I don’t belong to any organized political party. I’m a Democrat.
- Will Rogers

Lord, the money we do spend on Government and it's not one bit better than the government we got for one-third the money twenty years ago.
- Will Rogers

Ronald Reagan would be called a RINO today. Joe Biden would get along with Kennedy.

The Republicans moved very hard to the right due to FOX and gerrymandering. Y'all used to be the grown up party. "We can't afford that" is a legitimate political position. But the current Republican brand hates science. When I was a kid Republicans loved science.

Probably what will help is the zoomers and their lack of religious affiliation. With each funeral the Moral Majority keeps shrinking. When the US becomes secular in 20-25 years things will be much calmer.

Believe it or not, TUSCL has one of the healthier political discussion climates that I've seen.

Not that it's roses here, but everywhere else it's fucking horrible, and there are at least some reasonable, fact-based people here who can ignore the shit-flingers.

PM me if you want to know where you stand ;)

"But the current Republican brand hates science."
__________________
Yep. Examples (1) discredit of prominent scientists like Fauci (2) anti-vaxx/anti-mask policies (3) quack therapies like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin (4) climate science denial.

"But the current Republican brand hates science."

We know the proper number and characterization of sexes, and that there's a biological difference between them.

Democrats have gone fucking crazy, they have no middle and are full on statists. They gave up science for scientism. Random a perfect example of this. Fauci has lied and flip flopped so many times it is absurd. They push agenda at all times and blame weather on climate change while ignoring there being more ice formed this year, but no its the end of the world. Poor countries like India have used drugs like Ivermectin to huge success, now having less than 100 cases of covid a day with over 240 million people.

^ Fauci is imperious and 100% political, but right on the need for masks and vaccines. If he was less of a jerkoff, people would trust him more.

Actually, a lot of poor countries don't have a lot of COVID because they don't have a lot of old people. Ivermectin and HCQ data are questionable at best.

Actually, a lot of poor countries don't have a lot of COVID because they don't have a lot of old people.

Thats what you want to go with, not enough old people, haha

A lot of Covid testing = a lot of positive test results and a lot of reported cases.

Scarce Covid testing = very few positive test results and low number of reported cases.

I think we are moving towards Civil War.

When Trump was elected in 2016, I thought that that could mark the territorial break up of the US, starting with the 4 states on the Mexican border.

But now, things continue to get more contentious.

When Republicans are fighting for Abortion Restrictions and against the Build Back Better, they are fighting to maintain the plantation economy, fighting for the 1%, for the uberbosses.

When Republicans are fighting to end the COVID restrictions, they are fighting for the little guy. So this is a big improvement.

The leadership of the Democratic Party was very dishonest when it endorsed COVID hysteria.

1300 Republican bills now pending in the congress now to overturn the mandates. Most of these have no legal bearing because they have no chance of passing. But politically they carry a lot of weight. Opposition to the COVID mandates was a big factor in the recent Republican sweep in VA.

The question is, can the US have a Second Civil War without also triggering World War III.

SJG

Taylor Swift didn't jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYsUpUGi…

^ Civil war won't happen. We don't break along geographical lines like the civil war, and the two sides need each other more than they'd like to admit.

^^^^^ I hope you are correct. Those who listen to Right Wing News live in a totally disconnection with the real world.

Republicans are fighting for the little guy when they oppose the COVID mandates. But most of the time they are still fighting for the uber-class, like when they oppose Build Back Better and Reproductive Choice.

People say that we are closer now to nuclear war than we have ever been since the Cuban Missile Crisis.


SJG

Origins of the Ricks
https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=6860…

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=9363

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=9449

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=1389

Taylor Swift didn't jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYsUpUGi…

@SJG, I assume everything is biased so I read a range from left to right, reasonable to relatively crazy (but no Alex Jones or anyone who in my opinion has totally lost the plot). There's a huge apathetic or dissatisfied middle who doesn't spend all their time jaw jacking online and isn't even represented on boards like this.

They tend to be wary of big government but not wanting to tear shit down, pro choice within the first few weeks of pregnancy but don't want elective abortion up to the moment of birth, pro infrastructure spending but wary of social engineering, want their kids educated on race but able to pursue gifted programs and the like, patriotic but wary of foreign intervention.

Yale's David Blight, well worth a very careful listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXXp1bHd…

One of the things which made the First Civil War inevitable, was the fact that the Abolitionist Movement went extra legal. Its not that the loss of some slaves really made that much difference, it was a matter of honor.

Today as we move to the brink of a Second Civil War, I feel that its territorial dimension will be created if SCOTUS guts 1973 Roe v. Wade. Republicans in Red States are poised to try and advance their party by passing extreme abortion restrictions like we see now in MS and TX, and giving money to vigilantes. Prior to Roe v. Wade Reproductive Choice was already being protected by extra legal means, and especially in TX, where the Roe v. Wade case came from.

SJG

Eric Clapton - Layla - Crossroads Guitar Festival 2004
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5oGt_PH…

Origins of the Ricks
https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=6860…

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=9363

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=9449

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=1389

Taylor Swift didn't jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYsUpUGi…

^ Abortion isn't the culture war issue that it used to be. I hear a lot more about race and guns these days. We're far from the days of Operation Rescue. Most people have come to a degree of acceptance of it. In Donald Trump's culture war issues, abortion always seemed second-tier. Among Republicans, Trump approval actually has an inverse correlation with degree of religious behavior (church attendance and involvement).

Maybe that would change if it were overturned, but if it goes to the states, the same red states that generally disapprove of abortion would be the ones to ban it, and the blue states that are pro choice would accept it. In a way, people get what they want.

On another note, the idea of deputizing enforcement (and encouraging snitching) scares the shit out of me. But that's a different issue. Gavin Newsom is trying to do the same with guns.

Gerrymandering, primary system, many people not being able to filter through what they read online. The internet provided an easy way to influence huge numbers of people across huge areas at a scale never seen before. Rationale independent thought is steadily eroding. Internet “news” is generally making people misinformed rather more informed.

Well with three Trump appointees on SCOTUS, everyone is bracing for an overturn. Reproductive choice was defended by extra-legal means before Roe, and it will be again. The South and much of the Mid-West is poised for the Republican Party to advance itself by passing TX, MS, and MO type laws. And then remember the assassination in Wichita. A Bleeding Kansas could again be the flash point.

And I agree with RattleSnake777!

SJG

Taylor Swift
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXctLxNU…

^ Dems gotta own a few of the Trump justices. RBG could have retired during Obama but didn't and Breyer won't now.

Meanwhile the Republicans have been strategic about appointing young conservatives, and the Democrats foolish about opposition (see the Kavanaugh fiasco featuring the least credible accuser ever).

The stacking of SCOTUS by using 3/5's to control the congress and the presidency, were essential in bringing us into the first civil war.

SJG

Yes, we are polarized. Not Democrats vs Republicans, or left wingers vs right wingers, or black vs white.

The great divide is old versus young.

The last accepted form of discrimination is ageism.

Well, what exactly makes up the Left versus Right divide is not completely clear. Foxnews fans it. Gutting Roe will explode it.

Increasing industrialization and expecting workers trying to pay their bills to absorb the loss is exacerbating it.

SJG

Since I only owed $600 in student loans when I finished my 4-year college degree back in the 80s, it's hard to feel like I'm all oppressed and discriminated against. But maybe once I understand Joseph Goebbels's explanation of how it was Poland that attacked Germany, I'll understand how the old white guys like me are the victims in the US.

“We must work together to ensure the equitable distribution of wealth, opportunity, and power in our society.”