nicole's nuanced response to "should WNBA stars get paid as much as men in the N

actually, that wasn't the post. this is :

if wnba stars should get paid like NBA stars, umm can you please tell me where the money from their increased salaries will come from? Obviously not from the WNBA lmao...this is the real problem. By real problem, I am referring to the fact that the WNBA is lacking in cash because society stupidly thinks that women are more fun to watch on runways as opposed to the basketball court, not the fact that they are getting "underpaid. "


That being said, if you are a man who wants to talk about how WNBA stars (in this current environment) shouldn't get paid as much as men WHICH IS TRUE IN MY OPINION, but fail to address the fact that we need to foster a more inclusive environment for women being top dog in sports, as well as how we need to stand up against women being merely more for their looks over all else IN ALL FIELDS, SO THAT THEY CAN EVENTUALLY GET PAID AS MUCH AS MALE NBA STARS, you are just as bad as the woman who claims that she needs to be paid as much a dude in the NBA because of her failure to understand basic economics.

Frankly, I think that NBA men are paid far too much, and that owner's collect far too much.

It's a GAME, for God's sake, and people shouldn't have to take out mortgages for the privilege of watching.

Does a sports star provide as much intrinsic value to society as a good teacher? A talented engineer? Heck, even a good lawyer (valuable only because of their rarity, lol!). I would argue that they do not. Feel free to disagree!

While I think it is insane how much athletes, actresses (etc) are paid, the truth is that they are generally paid what they are worth.

If I were one of the athletes, I would be the reason why people watch. Fans don't want to see the owners, or refs, they watch for the players. Every single NBA team is now worth at least 1 billion dollars; if I was one of the players bringing in money for that billion dollar franchise, I would think I deserve a piece of the pie as well.

That is why WNBA players make less. They just are not worth nearly as much. I still think they're underpaid. I remember back when I was a huge WNBA fan, their average salary was like $55,000. That is why a lot of WNBA players go and play overseas during the off season, because it pays so much; that why one of the best WNBA players of all time, Diana Taurasi, left her team for a year and played overseas because they offered her a million dollar contract that the WNBA never would. (On a side note, while Diana Taurasi has gotten older, in her prime I think she was talented and skilled enough to hypothetically play in the NBA and still be an impactful, popular player).

Yes, while male mba players may definitely be over paid, LET'S NOT DIVERT FROM THE ISSUES OF THIS POST, WHiCH iS THAT the severe under pay of wnba players relative to that of their male peers IS NOT A SIGN that women need to be paid more , but that we need to stop thinking that women are valuable on the runway than in sports...

Ronda rousey and serena williams are prime examples of how entertaining women can be in sports .while they might be the minority , they surrounded themelves in a culture and around people who didnt limit their worth to fashion magazine covers, which greatly contributed to their greatness

^that is the attitude society needs to perpetuate for women who aspire to be in sports . yes, obviously , we see are certainly more progressive than before by speaking out against their objectifcation and encouraging them to more than just pretty, but the fight is far from fucking over

My previous comment was a response to atac dog^^

Conclusion : wnba players underpaid is not the problem . what is a problem is the reason they are underpaid , which is how society views women in a misogynistic way

Find me a girl who can match an NBA star move for move and I'll start paying.

Same goes for any sport.

Yes, I know ant wnba star can whoop my ass on the court, but I am just a cheap drunk, not an athlete.

Let’s merge the NBA and WNBA. Allow the teams to put anyone they want, male or female, on their roster. That way, men and women ( the ones who are good enough to make the team ) will all make big money.

Wait, you don’t think any women will make the roster ? Well, that’s so unfair. Life needs to be fair. We need to pass lots of laws to make it fair.

While we’re at it, pass a law that says all the Victoria Secret models must date me. That would make my life much more fair. Because, well, just because.

I am not a basketball fan so i don't know if im the right person to ask! I think all professional athletes are way overpaid they are playing a game. I think female athletes are just that female athletes not runway models ! But a man is going to be bigger and stronger so imo it is not fair to compare them! Thanks for asking my opininion queen troll

Diana Taurasi has to be in her mid 30s by now, but she could've hung in there in the NBA in her prime. I've no doubt about it, and I had the misfortune of having to watch her play in person many times when Detroit had a WNBA team. Don't give an opinion unless you watch.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPWS9xTHB…

Lolol thx @countryman

@ ninoBambina i gave my opinion because nicole asked for it i said men are bigger and stronger i never said wnba players are not good at what they do

@nicole1994 your welcome

Countryman, I understand that. I just posted a video of a WNBA player who I personally think could have made an NBA roster (hypothetically).

If Nancy Lieberman can play on the Lakers summer league team, Taurasi could've played in the NBA. Idk if she still plays, but in my opinion she's the best WNBA player of all time --- a lot of the other ones considered the best are freakishly tall for women, like that chick Brittany Griner who is basically a man among women and actually dunks. Griner is new, as I really don't know much about her. I HATED Diana Taurasi when I was a kid because, well, she was a top player in the league and I hated her for beating my team.

My twin accused me of being a "closeted Diana Taurasi fan," which I was. I couldn't help it, she was so good. The way she wears her hair and the way she wears her knee socks was they way I wore mine in high school games. Coincidence? No.

Could y'all please stop trolling. It's beginning to hurt my feelings.

I ain't trolling I'm spreading some Taurasi Truth.

I wish I would've came out of the closet as a Diana Taurasi fan when I was younger, so I could've followed her career more and watched her play. I haven't watched a WNBA game in forever. Luckily I looked it up, and she's not retired. So next summer I'm going to try to catch some of her away games in various cities I travel to, although I wish I had followed her more since she's getting older now.

Wait... did someone say Taurasi could've played in the NBA, the men's NBA?
Bwahahahahahahhaha. Holy shit. This is some retard level 10 shit....

"Wait... did someone say Taurasi could've played in the NBA, the men's NBA?
Bwahahahahahahhaha. Holy shit. This is some retard level 10 shit...."

I'm speaking hypothetically... an NBA team wouldn't sign a woman regardless because they'd have to give her special treatment (from her own locker room all the way down to sports bras, everything).

But I mean, Spud Webb was 5'7" 132 lbs. Mugsy Bogues was 5'3" and 137 lbs. Diana Taurasi is 6'0" and 154 lbs. She's be small and get banged up easily, and not be able to play a lot of minutes... but I do believe Taurasi could hypothetically make an NBA roster and actually play (and be entertaining). She might only have the stamina for 10 minutes per game, but NBA players are making 7 figures while doing that. Taurasi had to go play for an overseas team to sign a 7 figure contract...

To me, her ability to create shots is like Steph Curry, and I'm serious. Obviously she's playing in a much better league, but I believe her to be more skilled than Mugsy and at 5'3" his genetic chance of making it to the NBA is about the same as hers.

I also like her attitude. She is cocky, but a lot of the perceived cockiness comes from passion. She was born to play basketball, and she loves it, and it is clear.

Lol I meant he* is playing in a much better league (Steph Curry), and Diana is playing in the much easier league.

^youre dreaming, its a different equilibrium between men and women as far as height weight, mugsy could out jump her and wasn't that good, spud Webb could dunk. I could go on but you arguing this makes you look as dumb as one of Nicole's posts. And lmao about the comparison to steph curry, are you serious? Must be on the good shit tonite.... muggy would tear her apart even at 55 years old.

They are able to create their own shot in their respective leagues in very similar ways. Their leagues are very different, but Diana Taurasi is like the Steph Curry of the WNBA except she's a more decent size for her league than Steph is for his. They're both point guards with the ability to lead their team team in scoring. She's now the all-time WNBA leader in both points and 3 pointers.

I stand by what I said.

We can agree to disagree, but Diana is more skilled than Mugsy.

^you crazy, you shouldn't ever be allowed to talk basketball.

Eh, the very best women could probably hold certain spots on NBA rosters, but you're talking about a dozen or so over 20 years.

I remember watching Ivory Latta play pickup games at UNC, she was typically the only woman playing. Usually she was better than all the other guys playing, but occasionally one or two would be better and they were just random dudes.

The simple fact is that there's only a certain amount of money that's realistically going to get spent on professional basketball. The NBA has been around, what, 80+ years? The WNBA 20ish? They're scrapping for dollars against a well established opponent that's essentially a higher level of the sport.

Well that's why I said earlier about playing for how much you are worth. And every NBA team is worth over a billion now. The WNBA is worth way less.

Ivory Latta played for Detroit for a while after college.

Becky Hammond is an assistant coach for the Spurs, which is cool.

And yeha the WNBA debuted in 97.

Yeah*

Here you go ....

The ultimate measure of social importance is how much society will pay you for it.

The answer depends slightly if on is arguing that physical beauty should not be important. If there existed a society where attractive looks were not important, and if a theoretical child were adopted into this society, then the child would would not care about male or female attractiveness.

—> There is _no_ such society on Earth.

The answer then depends on if you mean that beauty should be equally concerned between males an females. This is the next best scenario.

—> The closest example of that is the Wodaabe in Africa.
Image: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=…

Runway models are valued because of economic and market reasons for the fashion industry. This feeds almost all of the other female profession, as many (including ronda rousey and yes serena williams) are interested in marketing their physical attractiveness as well as their skills. So why do women spend so much time on their appearance? Even CEOs?

+ Young professional women, spend about $400 /yr on clothes.
+ Young professional men, about the same, $400 /yr on clothes.
+ Professional women, increase their spending, peaking at about $700 /yr in their early 40s, then declining there after
+ Married men spend about $280 /yr on clothes.

So it appears men once married are less interested in appearing attractive to others and get more in to a maintenance mode, perhaps to provide for their families. Women on the other hand, as they get MORE STATUS and MORE SUCCESS, and MORE MONEY, will spend more on her physical attractiveness. You would think in @Nicole1994's universe, she would spend less, not more.

So it’s always there. I think what you are proposing doesn’t match up with women’s own experience in the real world. Looks still matter. And in some cases looks, education, degrees, etc. really only matter so much — and I’m sorry to have to write this — as to attract a husband, who will help support the family. And her job & degree more often is more of fall back in case she finds herself widowed or divorced.

Obviously, you with the high paying legal degree, this won’t apply to you. But a lot of women, even in STEM, this is still reality. I think what you’re proposing still needs to be practical for those regular women.

—

@ninabambina and @nicole1994, listen up!

As for WNBA versus Tennis or MMA? Well you cite individual sports. These have traditionally been good for women. Like skiing, ice skating, LPGA, etc. It’s team sports where it starts to loose interest. The elephant in the room is the difference in physical strength, magnified by the team number.

The common complaint is that women’s soccer is boring. Same for volleyball or basketball or any team sport. Some of this is bias. “We expect it to be boring based on experience or conditioning. But some of it is true. I looked up some trials, and guys got bored of women’s soccer in 30 second and changed the channel. But in cases where the female researcher pleased with them to give it a second chance .. or .. cases were the players were shown from a distance and sex could not be determined. The men watched. After many minutes, they got more into it.

They appreciated the:
1) teamwork
2) ball handing
3) women moving into position for strategic advantage ahead of time, etc.

But that was nuanced. At first, it lacked the raw power of men’s games but later they appreciated the subtle nuanced playing. Same as will volleyball. Women’s games are more of a “staying alive” and “keeping the ball in play” and it takes time to appreciate the dfifferent approach women take because of sexual dimorphism (nature built them differently).

—

How do we force the change? Who says we should or that we need to? Why should people watch something that they don’t like if what they don’t like is women’s sports?

But instead, if you’re goal is to have women valued for something else than their looks? We are doing that. But it will never go away. And as long as women are very much concerned about it, the Runway models will still very very valued as it unfortunately feeds everything else.

Also traditionally the institutional feminists have not promoted women’s sports. I don’t think they take it seriously as they do things like female surgeons or female astronauts or scientists.


—

I think the takeaway is, why is physical attractiveness prized?
200,000 years of gut instinct.
First physical impressions are a FRACTION of a second.
One can assess physical beauty in what? 4 seconds? 9 seconds? Definitely less than a minute!

Intelligence (or skill) is also prized. But this takes MUCH LONGER to assess.

Evolution has favored speed and reproductive success. Physically attractive women:
1) reproduce sooner
2) have more off spring

Intelligent of skilled men and women
1) reproduce later in life
2) have longer courtships
3) fewer offspring.

So you are basically asking society to short-circuit is programming for your SJW pet science project. Not that it isn’t a worthwhile goal. But that’s what you’re up against. That and women’s own experiences that looks do matter (related to marriage, which up until 128 years ago, primarily pre-determine her survival) It will take time.

I think where change can really be impacted is not SJW or feminist indoctrination in school. The change needs to happen and the parent-->child interface. Especially from birth until age 5. That's were it will stick, IMO.

Actually it will change when the money perceives that the female sports market will generate the returns that are comparable to men’s sports, it’s really all about the money, attitudes change when the money is right.

I don't see the WNBA becoming anywhere close as valuable as the NBA any time soon. But it is insulting that their salary cap is in the $100,000s.

^ Money isn’t interested in insults, it just chases returns.

That's why this is now my 3rd time on this discussion saying that NBA players are paid much more because they are worth much more.

The WNBA players go overseas during the off season (which is long) and play Euroleague or Russian league. That's when Diana Taurasi signed a contract worth 7 figures.

She's been in the league for at least 14 seasons and her net worth is only 1.5 million, and keep it mind the million was from a non-American league. And she is considered one of the greatest of all time, most points scored and 3 pointers made in WNBA history, and has been a star since before she was drafted, back when she won 3 straight titles for UConn.

And I changed my mind. She is more like a Kobe than a Steph. Maybe a mix of both, though.

^ Keep in mind I’m not disagreeing with you at all, maybe women’s sports needs better marketing, there are certainly some extremely talented and exciting female sports figures, but the manner in which, the vast majority is marketed leave a ton of money on the table.

Guys, nicole1994 isn't going to read your posts because you aren't debated the exact question she asked:

@nicole1994 posted: "That being said, if you are a man who wants to talk about how WNBA stars (in this current environment) shouldn't get paid as much as men WHICH IS TRUE IN MY OPINION, but fail to address the fact that we need to foster a more inclusive environment for women being top dog in sports, as well as how we need to stand up against women being merely more for their looks over all else IN ALL FIELDS"

@nicole1994 posted: "you are just as bad as the woman who claims that she needs to be paid as much a dude in the NBA because of her failure to understand basic economics."

I think she was asking how to foster a more inclusive environment for women in all fields on not just the economics. How do we FORCE the returns for WNBA, et al. but not for Runway models. How do we force society to value WNBA (but not Runway models)?

Not sure what Runway models ever did to nicole1994, though. Talk about an axe to grind, wtf up with that :-/