Alternative Educations

Well I think that is the necessary point, their graduates are well educated. To be able to obtain that you have to break the perceived link with income from future employment.

SJG

So DC, is there any kind of an education which you would see as having intrinsic value, a value which does not relate to future income potential and which does not have a price. Would you be willing to invest some time, energy, and some money into it?

What subject matter would this deal with, and what form would you want it to take, and over what kind of time frame?

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

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Phatboy99 - definite troll account

Vantablack - possible troll account

SJG I didn’t read anything you posted - I just came here to call you a fag.

^^^^^That's basically what he does in every LDK thread, except replace fag with chump. So sure, give him a dose of his own medicine.

Yeah I think most people who go that school end up going to grad school. It looked really cool and I wanted to go there when I was in high school.

If I had been more serious about it, then I should have gone to UT Austin. I know they had (probabaly still have) a great books program.

Shailynn and TFP, using up whole jars of KY Jelly.

SJG

bestcollegereviews.org

Several schools have great books programs.

Not that many Great Books Programs:

I stand corrected, a lot more than I thought. And UT Austin has one of them.

And then there is always the possibility of some such program outside of a full time college environment.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - commonly referred to as SJG this forum member is usually mocked or ignored, his comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate

You can read great books on your own. No need to spend thousands of dollars on tuition. Our educational system is mostly a waste of time and money.

^jackslash makes a good point

^^ I hope you’re not doing all this in your moms basement like SJG does in his moms.

I went to college and law school specifically to train myself to work and earn a living. Nothing worse than those who live off the efforts of others and feel its their "right".

jackslash wrote: "Our educational system is mostly a waste of time and money."

Our educational system has its limits. But not everyone is at a point where they be educating themselves.

It is important that we maintain and fund our higher education system, and that we provide for students to be able to go there without incurring debt. This benefits our entire country. Far more so than does our bloated prison system, our excessive military spending, or any wall on the Mexican border.

DC wrote:

"Not taking steps to ensure one's future income is stable at a young age is financially irresponsible."

There is no way to ensure one's future income, and college has very little to do with future income.

DC also wrote,

"I wanted to transfer schools sophomore year but I didn't because I was going to a prestigious university and even though I probably would've been happier elsewhere, I had to make a sacrifice to improve my resume."

Improve your resume? That is really sad that you apply yourself in college and all you hope for is a good resume? That is really really sad.

If you don't bring forth that which is in you, it will eat you alive. Paraphrasing from the Thomas Gospel.

Obviously we all have to make choices. But there is no substitute for really educating yourself, rather than just trying to get credentials. A real education will serve you well as you continue to educate yourself life long. A prestigious degree becomes worth very little, in light of later accomplishments.

DC also wrote:

"I stay on top of the news and I frequently go on binges where I research historical, sociological, psychological, and political subjects for hours."

Well as a current college student, you are being kept busy. But once you are out, you will have to decide for yourself what is a suitable course of life long study. For most of the population, they don't do much.

FWIW, those in my organization will be intensively self educating themselves, supervised and group supported independent studies.

skibum wrote: "I went to college and law school specifically to train myself to work and earn a living. Nothing worse than those who live off the efforts of others and feel its their "right"."

Everyone lives of off the efforts of others, and those who take in the most money from the efforts of others seem to be those most inclined to feel that doing so is their "right".

College in a limited number of years can never give anyone any more than a small portion of what they need. It has to be broader and deeper, and self directed. And so it needs to be life long. The purpose of classroom, homework, and examinations schooling should be to teach you to educate yourself.

As far as Great Books, people can see the list.

In my opinion, if you took some selected works from Plato and Aristotle, and also the Pre-Socratics, a great deal could be accomplished, and that would be less than 10% what the Great Books schools deal with.

1.. Pre-Socratics, usually Thales forward, just short passages. These are not in the Great Books Cannon, but I feel that they deal with central issues. But because the passages are so short, you end up settling on a commentary book. The Great Books project seeks to minimize use of commentary books. Here you would have little other choice. But the total of original text plus commentary could be under 300 pages.

1. Plato, do Republic and then about 6 of his shorter works. This gets to major ideas, and Republic is one of the most radical things ever written, the origin of the idea for an ideal state and abolishing the family. Origin of all the utopian and distopian ideas. Ray Bradbury calls Republic the first work of science fiction. A clear central influence on Marx and Engels, even though they never pushed very far into any way to actualize such.

2. Aristotle is more voluminous, and it is like Plato, but more a rejection of Plato in favor of more practical and compromising plans. I suggest one of two of his works only.

I feel that these handled in a seminar format would make a huge difference.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

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"I started thinking that way after becoming completely disillusioned with the culture at my campus."

I understand what it means to be disillusioned, but I still do not know what exactly you are referring to. You seem to be talking about campus life, social life?

"watching everybody else act like they were living in some kind of paradise"

You mean others who seem to be happy, and with the campus social life? You are meaning joiners, conformists, frat and sorority types?

Well so there are multiple issues here, one is just the rotten situation which many college grads face, but you have not gotten there yet.

Another is the nature of campus social life.

Another is the quality or lack there of in the education. Not sure how you see this.

And then another is what else is needed, in terms of life long education.

But still, college does not mean you will have good income or a good career. The best prep for that is learning what you need to learn, and where ever and how ever you need to do this. Have to learn to be your own director.

The best of life is had by pursuing ends activities, things which are the reward in and of themselves. Means activities, things only valued because they get you to something else, that is greatly inferior. In this I am paraphrasing Aristotle.

Sounds like you are at college because it is an ends activity, and as such you have been duped, and as I see it duped at several levels.

As I see it, college shows that you have someone who is willing to do what they are told, conform to normative standards, in exchange for a rather small reward.

Such persons are muggles. They will not live well, and for them nothing is guaranteed.

FWIW, in the group I am building we will never steer anyone away from traditional college. We just supplement that with life long learning.

But having said this, traditional college is completely out of reach for many people, and unbelievably expensive. And then beyond a certain age, people don't want homework and exams, they want to be self directed. And this is what education should deliver, the ability to learn on your own.

And what we offer will always be fully integrated with work in our industries. And then of course the 365 day per year drained dry by stripper grade hotties guarantee.

SJG

Mason 1971, real good youtube.com

Hah. That kinda happened for me as well.

I was told “Oh you may hate high school, but in college, it will be all about critical thinking and you will flourish” . I wanted to take a GED test when I was 15/16 so I could not go, but I wasn’t allowed. It was apparently unsuitable for someone who was in honors classes and had a lot of potential. Lol, okay.

Correction:

"Sounds like you are at college because it is a means activity"

And actually everything for you now is a bunch of means activities, and the delivery of the expected reward can never be counted on.

SJG

Interesting account there NiceSpice.

Too bad they didn't let you become a stripper back then!

:) :) :)

Seriously, I think high school is a bad place. But all too often college is not that much different.

There are other kinds of colleges.

Well some of it really is just about socio economic status. So a very bright student might have been well served by a GED and getting to college sooner. But GED is associated with students who are not doing well and usually are from lower socio-economic ranks.

There can be other ways to get out of high school and off to college early though.

"but in college, it will be all about critical thinking and you will flourish"

Well how much it is like that depends on the school, on what classes you are taking, and on whether you are talking about the social life or about the academic life, or if the two are the same.

For myself, no it was mostly a negative, but I did like my classes. But there was still a limit. Beyond a point I had to build a life outside of college. I could not keep pouring my time and energy into something which did not have the depth or breadth which I wanted.

Where I was there was a special program, all independent studies. I was in a couple of seminars of there's and I knew some of there people. They were really a trip, they really wanted to learn.

So in my classes when a professor tried to introduce something there was a groan heard all throughout the lecture hall.

And some were circulating a petition to try and get rid of a professor I thought well of, he expected students to be able to derive complex things, like on the exam.

Others wanted him gone, saying, "You'll never need to use this." But as I saw it, that kind of an understanding was what would have the longest lasting value.

Then in this special independent studies program, when the professor was explaining something it was totally different. Everyone in the class would be up at the blackboard trying to do the proof.

In other classes a text book is assigned. In this special program, students run up at the end of class and ask if the professor can recommend a book which will help them understand better what he is lecturing about.

And then of course others would say of that , "What can you do with that degree?". I tried to show them how stupid this was.

Then I realized, if you wanted to have a good program where people really learn, it has to be like that. The means to an ends people have to see it as worthless.

That way they stay away.

FWIW, my organization will give people an outstanding environment for lifelong learning, integrated with work experience, financial security and health care access, and also all the sex they can handle.

SJG

In giving priority to Ends Activities over Means Activities, I am following Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics.

But you can just read this, Mortimer Adler of the Great Books Series:

amazon.com

DC, the way it is now everything is supposed to be means to ends, this is what Neo-Liberalism, Libertarianism and Republicanism ( really all the same ) do.

School is to get into college, college is to get a job, the job is to save and invest money for retirement.

It is Education -> Work -> Play ( retirement )

That is no kind of a life. At best these three should be totally integrated. This is what I have largely built for myself. That is what my organization is about.

So I do not use chemicals to escape, and sex is not about hedonism for me.

About the most hedonism I go for is something I really love, building bicycle wheels.

i.ytimg.com

How to break out of the three boxes:

amazon.com

SJG

"parties were the only accurate part of that"

And the parties, though good because they have girls, they are still mostly ethanol powered.

Can't do anything about existing colleges. But my organization will provide a magnificent alternative.

Besides supervised independent studies I want it to have a much minimized great books type program, and some intro college level math and science stuff. But I also want some stuff more likely to appeal to the women. Posted ideas about this.

And also a Radical Left Political intro.

SJG

DC, I know we've talked before about college issues, and I value very much what you are saying. Usually I would think that college friends are found in shared activities, like classes and major departments, but also in outside activities. It is after all entire universe of people the same age.

So of the young women, I have read accounts of them not wanting intimate relationships. They don't want such because they take up time and energy. Also, they don't want to get shackled to guys who are not of high enough socio-economic status.

amazon.com

That is the real message of the above book, that women know that with today's economic system, men who are not of an elite will probably have job instability and end up being an economic burden, even having to split a nest egg with them for a divorce settlement.

So even when pregnant, they will still opt not to marry. And this is making our society very different.

So instead these women go with the hook-up culture, and then the type of men they are drawn to for that are different, play actors, stuffed shirts.

Reading this surprised me, but thinking back to my own time in college one could say that this was true then. I just did not understand it until I had my own experience out in the work force.

Thinking about this opera Carmen, the first thing which jumps out at me now is that it is centered on a group of young women who work in a factory. Well from work environment experience of my own, all such women want is to get married. And they are aggressive and fast moving. Totally the opposite of the college environment. Their jobs are just a disposable inconvenience for them. Or at least that is how they see it. They have one real objective.

So for a young man in college, it could be real hard, and extension of adolescence, a denial of adulthood.

FWIW, for those in my organization it will never be like that. Financial viability and stability always a given. Life long continuing education, work which uses your skills, always being challenged to learn and do more, always being groomed for the next position, which we will arrange for you. For those who want it, making them into entrepreneurs. Always discussion groups for areas of shared study. Ritual groups. And always that 365 day per year of stripper grade dolled up hotties getting your jizm.

DC, can you suggest any practical improvements to the type of college you are now in?

SJG

I'll have this book about the opera Carmen in hand soon. Georges Bizet : his life and work / Winton Dean. (1965)

Carmen, full opera youtube.com

Okay, this Indiana University version is playing now. It is from their 2015-2016 season. music.indiana.edu

Better way to get to it:

Part 1 media.dlib.indiana.edu

Part 2 media.dlib.indiana.edu

And here, program with some commentary: music.indiana.edu

So lets see how some of this sounds when played fixed pitch, i.e. organ:

youtube.com

youtube.com

youtube.com

youtube.com

Hal Ashby theringer.com

en.wikipedia.org

Obama Delivers Stinging Rebuke, Standing Up To Bullies, not following them. yahoo.com

Roe v. Wade in Danger: Released Docs Reveal Kavanaugh Thinks Abortion Decision Is Not “Settled Law” democracynow.org

As 400+ Children Remain Separated From Parents, Trump Admin Wants to Detain Kids Indefinitely democracynow.org

So to DC and NiceSpice, and to anyone else who wants to chime in:

Say there were going to be some kind of a seminar course. Say it was near home and with people you knew, and no real cost. Say you are supposed to read a text and discuss it. If people want they can use the black board. 10 to 20 people and a good facilitator.

What kind of a book would you want it to be, and any specific suggestions?

SJG

So, Pythagoras, what do we have of his writings?

en.wikipedia.org

(c. 570 – c. 495 BC)

According to Charles H. Kahn, Plato's middle dialogues, including Meno, Phaedo, and The Republic, have a strong "Pythagorean coloring",[225] and his last few dialogues (particularly Philebus and Timaeus)[215] are extremely Pythagorean in character.

So do we have nothing of the man's writings? That has always been my understanding.

How about this book then:

amazon.com

Pythagoras, his life and teachings : being a photographic facsimile of the ninth section of the 1687 edition of the History of philosophy / by Thomas Stanley ; (2010)

Or this, juvenile book: Pythagoras : mathematician and mystic / Louis C. Coakley and Dimitra Karamanides (2016)

Or this, Inner Traditions Press 2016 The golden number : Pythagorean rites and rhythms in the development of western civilization / Matila C. Ghyka ; translated by Jon E. Graham ( not actually available )

Pythagoras : his life, teaching, and influence / Christoph Riedweg ; translated by Steven Rendall in collaboration with Christoph Riedweg and Andreas Schatzmann (2005)

To think like God : Pythagoras and Parmenides : the origins of philosophy / Arnold Hermann (2004)

SJG

Katherine S. Newman, on campus safety, 2008 youtube.com

Why 20-Somethings are Moving Back Home youtube.com

Katherine Newman - America's "missing class" presentation youtube.com

Elliot Rodger The Virgin Killer 2014 Isla Vista killings Documentary youtube.com

The Secret Life Of Elliot Rodger 2020 FULL Interview youtube.com

Channel 4 Elliot Rodger The Virgin Killer Full Documentary youtube.com

The Anti-College Is on the Rise

Students, teachers and reformers are pushing back against the failures of mainstream higher education.

nytimes.com

They represent a growing movement of students, teachers and reformers who are trying to compensate for mainstream higher education’s failure to help young people find a calling: to figure out what life is really for.

These students will read works by authors ranging from Plato and Herbert Marcuse to Tlingit writers. The point is to “develop and flex a more rigorous political imagination,” according to one course syllabus. They will take on 15 to 20 hours a week of manual labor in Sitka, and set their group’s rules on everything from curfews to cellphones. Last summer’s cohort discouraged the use of phones during class and service hours and ordered everyone to turn off the internet at 10 p.m.

en.wikipedia.org

It operates on a “pay what you can” model and bans alcohol, tobacco, marijuana and recreational drugs.

The point of bringing students to live, work and read together is nothing short of “the cultivation of wisdom, the living of a good life in thought and action, and selfless devotion to world and humanity,” according to the Arete Project’s website. But what philosophical foundations underlie those ambitions?

“I do wonder whether or not it’s mission-critical for an educational institution to have a fully articulated metaphysics and ethics and politics that underpin it — or to what extent that is inhibitive to the broader project of liberal education,” Ms. Marcus told me. “There is a deep-seated human desire to feel you’re a part of something bigger than yourself, and one of the problems of liberal modernity is that it doesn’t give you a whole lot beyond the self to subsume yourself in. That gives secular institutions like ours a little bit of a question mark about what that grounding vision is going to be.”

Outer Coast and the Arete Project represent one strain of higher education reform: call them the communitarian pragmatists, with liberal arts for the mind, labor for the body and an ethos of secular monasticism for the spirit. They are the descendants of philosophers like John Dewey and educational entrepreneurs like Deep Springs College’s founder, L.L. Nunn.

Way Finding Academy, Portland Oregon wayfindingacademy.org

SJG

OT: Are Traditional Colleges and Universities Bad Environments? tuscl.net

• The World Is A Ghetto by War - youtube.com

Cristal blue persuasion youtube.com

So this looks really good to me:

The Anti-College Is on the Rise

Students, teachers and reformers are pushing back against the failures of mainstream higher education.

nytimes.com

It operates on a “pay what you can” model and bans alcohol, tobacco, marijuana and recreational drugs.

outercoast.org

You can only read and study for so many hours per day. So they blend it with 1/2 time work, of a fairly physical nature.

I think this is the way school needs to be. You can keep people in a program with reading and discussions, for a while. But what you really want is for them to be able to go from that to where they can also read stuff without anyone to discuss it with. But they can write papers, maybe present the papers, then the papers are released for those who want to read them.

Anything you put into a college program means that something else needs to be taken out. And if you want to get into math and science too, then the cumulative load is huge. The way to deal with this is you want to inculcate in people the habit of life long learning, and you want to supply them with recommended book lists. But the people also need to become equipped to understand how the major schools of thought and ideas interact. Otherwise they will forever be crippled when it comes to living in this world. When schools are allowed to degenerate into job training, this is guaranteed.

It should not need to cost much money to operate one of these alternative schools.

SJG

i got a line on you, Jeff Healey Band youtube.com

So this is women only:

the arete project areteproject.org

So do they read from the same list of Dead White Males, or do they have other selections?

"academics, labor, and self-governance"

Some programs co-ed, some women only.

As I know "arete" comes from Plato's Symposium, at least it is talked about there. Might not be the original use.

scholarcommons.usf.edu

Says it comes from Homeric times en.wikipedia.org

Though specifics of content could be debated, I think this kind of school has much more to offer than conventional colleges. Though no matter what kind of education you have, you will still need more beyond that, so it has to be life long.

founder Laura Marcus areteproject.org

Deep Springs College, near Bishop CA, actually in Dyer NV deepsprings.edu

Only 15 students per year, and they all get a full scholarship.

From this, its still in CA google.com

In the center here is their building, on Deep Springs Ranch Road. google.com

These schools generally want students to be isolated, collecting up cell phones, little outside Internet.

Different things possible.

These kinds of programs tend to be 2 years or less.

SJG

Joy Mills: The Secret Doctrine---100 Years Later youtube.com

Educational perennialism

Perennialists believe that one should teach the things that are of everlasting pertinence to all people everywhere, and that the emphasis should be on principles, not facts. Since people are human, one should teach first about humans, rather than machines or techniques, and about liberal, rather than vocational, topics.

One such Educational Perennialist was Robert Maynard Hutchins (January 17, 1899 – May 14, 1977)

When President of the University of Chicago, he eliminated varsity football.

en.wikipedia.org

Now how is it that Hutchins was able to promote such and his Great Books program, when most people get chewed to pieces if they advocate anything which is not directly required for gaining income?

SJG

Classics of Western Spirituality, 145 titles

paulistpress.com

Ancient paulistpress.com

Handbook of Neo-Platonism, but not original texts amazon.com

Neoplatonism (Hackett Classics) amazon.com

SJG

Universities aren't what they used to be. There's just too much BS now.

Ultimately though, anything you can do to learn new ways of thinking or seeing things will probably help you down the road. You often hear a kid say something like "why do I have to take science, I want to be a writer" or something along those lines. But what they don't understand is that science is another way of looking at how the world works. There may be lessons in the science classes that help the future writer to communicate their thoughts to others.

The problem in universities though, is that they are trying to tell you what to think rather than how to think....this takes place especially in the liberal arts side of things. Don't believe it, just try to discuss your thoughts on the positives of capitalism or a free market, try to share your conservative thoughts with others. Look at how the left is trying to close down speakers on campuses everywhere. They use terms like racist or sexist or anti-LGBTQ every time, not even knowing what the speakers stand for.

Lost is the idea of freedom of speech. What happened to being willing to stand up for someone's right to say something you completely disagree with just to support their freedom to say it.

Disagree with the leftist view of racial issues in the country.....you're branded a racist. Disagree with the leftist view of gender issues in the country....you're branded a sexist bigot. Disagree with anything the leftist think and you are branded as HATE SPEECH.

That's not promoting thought....it's trying to shut down views other than your own and contributes nothing to education or the public discussion of issues.

SJG - you ever have a job? Does anyone you follow actually work? Have you no pride?

Skibum, you ever step outside, or do you live in front of the television set reading news papers? Or does the nursing home staff keep you chained to the bed frame?

If you came outside and talked like you do here, you would not last long.

Iceyloco, I do agree with you.

I also think there is a huge problem as so many people see college as job training. And that it will never be very good for. But on the other hand so much is being lost.

So I say we need a different kind of college, not totally original, but different from what most people experience.

I also say that for reasons of practicality and for reasons of growth and having a public identity, that college needs to be very flexible and made to work with at least part time employment.

Most elite schools today are not set up to be compatible with even part time employment.

And then of course in my org, all of these problems will be solved at their root.

I think conventional college proved to be harmful to me, because it really was incompatible with employment, and so it prevented me from establishing an adult identity via employment. One can only take this for so long. But there is still so much more to learn. So it has to work some other way.

SJG

I think there is much more that one should be able to get from college than career prep.

John Dewey spoke of "educating people through vocations", but he did not mean educating people through vocations.

Colleges are never really current, not in books, and not in equipment. The state of the art is only found in industries.

We need colleges to expand people to breadth, to challenge them and let them see how much there is which they really don't know.

Career prep might be a part of this, but I feel that for most people it should be secondary.

And then yes, no matter what people learn in college, this does not mean that there will be jobs for them.

I feel that for most people career prep has to be done on their own, and really on a continuing basis.

I think Hutchins was right, talking about perennial education.

en.wikipedia.org

Most people are just too narrowly educated, and this goes out of date quickly. Arguable if you are learning it in school, it is already out of date. Where as Perennial Education will never go out of date.

Our society needs people with such education, not just to perform jobs.

Agree??

SJG

Obviously if we want to add stuff to an academic program, then that means other stuff needs to be taken out. That is, unless you are greatly expanding the concept into lifelong learning. This is what I mean.

Stuff learned in a polytechnic is already out of date. So while some such learning is unavoidable, I think it better for the formal schooling component to focus on things which are timeless, like Math, Science, Philosophy, and Humanities.

People can learn the more short term stuff on their own.

Right now, people are greatly under educated, in my view.

SJG

Well I feel that making higher education into job training has seriously undermined it.

You can only keep people in full time conventional school for so long. So I say that it should be made compatible with part time employment, and preferably closely coupled to it, and at the same site.

Then, you want people to be able to be self directed and to study independently.

And more than anything I feel that you want people to be able to engage with ways of criticism and doctrine on thinking. You want people to learn philosophy. And then the best way of doing this is to be in discussion seminars with small groups.

If we are to agree on a highest objective, I would say that higher education should help people see that there is so very much more which they do not know, and to inculcate in them the desire and aptitude for life long learning.

SJG

Car Keys and Wallet Dating tuscl.net

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13 Desperate Men Explain Why They Go To Strip Clubs tuscl.net

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Well I don't think higher education of the form we have it has ever worked that well. Historically it was just for the very few. And also today, I say that people need to know more for a whole host of reasons.

SJG

Till Death Do Us Part tuscl.net

We need an alternative form of higher education.

1. The standard form is too focused on young adults. For many it is impossible at that time.
2. Standard form too inflexible and costly.
3. People need to know more today, even just for living consciously. Education has to be life long.

So via supervised independent studies, and also some recorded lectures and some discussion seminars, we need to have this.

My organization will provide this for our own people, and we will not charge extra for this.

For the general public, we could also at some time offer this, for a quite modest charge.

FWIW, I am educating myself this way right now.

SJG

You failed.

No skibum, the only failure here is you. We all either keep on learning, or we become senile suicidals like you are.

SJG

People need life long, self directed education. The present norm is far too restrictive and limited!

SJG

The idea that post secondary education is only for career training and certification, or that it is primarily for such, is just too restrictive. It limits what people can learn about. It denies them the depth and breath that they need.

Then other restrictions are the narrow social realm of college, and the fact that it amounts to an extension of adolescence, being denied adulthood.

As such, college is already made to last too long. Instead, we need a lifelong self directed model, far more breadth, far more depth.

SJG

Rosicrucian Music youtube.com

The American Electoral Republic has failed youtube.com

Ocasio-Cortez: Ukraine allegation one of the most serious we have seen youtube.com

Tsar to Lenin youtube.com

I think people need to know more today, so then what we had in the past would still be inadequate.

These anti-college seminars, classic books reading and discussion programs, at remote live in facilities. I say that they offer much. Only maybe a year long. And so you still need and want much more. I still see promise in them. Its not all from Great Books of the Western World.

nytimes.com

For my organization, that will definitely be a part of what we offer and try to steer everyone through.

And, these already don't allow drugs, alcohol, marijuana, or tobacco, which I know will make a huge difference.

wayfindingacademy.org

outercoast.org

areteproject.org

deepsprings.edu

I also agree with what IceyLoco posted way up, that the problem is universities following the corporate model, trying to make money off of research.

If Elliot Rodger got on well in one of these Anti-Colleges, quite small, coed, residential, and discussion seminars, then that would have changed everything.

SJG

The Rolling Stones Gimme Shelter Amsterdam, The Netherlands 1995 Lisa Fisher youtube.com

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - Commonly referred to as SJG this forum member may have some sort of mental illness and is usually mocked or ignored. SJG has a long history of posting incendiary comments including being pro-rape. His comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate.

What Color Is Your Parachute jobhuntersbible.com

Unfortunately stupid things like the Work Ethic, and other components of striverism, often get in the way of young people getting the kind of an education which they might. Only some kinds of subjects are legitimated. People are expected to conform in their aspirations.

What color is your parachute, though about career building, shows a very different kind of thinking. It is all predicated on personal legitimacy coming first, as a given.

Now over the years I have recommended this to dozens and dozens of people. But most seem incapable of understanding what it is saying, let alone doing what it suggests.

We need an alternative venue for high education, and my organization will offer this.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - Commonly referred to as SJG this forum member may have some sort of mental illness and is usually mocked or ignored. SJG has a long history of posting incendiary comments including being pro-rape. His comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate.

People need to know more today. People grow up in very tough and very abusive situations. And conventional higher education is vastly too expensive and inflexible.

My organization will offer an alternative type of high education which fixes all of this!

SJG

People can get educated, but only so far as the envelop of legitimacy extends. That legitimacy envelop is the end.

And this cuts people far too short!

SJG

Need to have alternative schools, which are good because they are not considered legitimate by the normals.

SJG

WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy:

san_jose_guy - Commonly referred to as SJG this forum member may have some sort of mental illness and is usually mocked or ignored. SJG has a long history of posting incendiary comments including being pro-rape. His comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate.

People need more open ways to continue their educations. The existing ways are too narrow, too restrictive.

We need more democracy in the getting of an education.

My organization will provide this.

SJG

People need far more than they get in a conventional college program. Need far more to know how you want to live, what values you want to support.

Most college is already too much like job training, too narrow, and too shallow, inherently exploitative.

Certainly like that for me, and I needed much much more. I needed to be able to be a creative person, like an artist, in what every I was to do.

SJG

Foghat Playlist youtube.com

American Carnage: On the Front Lines of the Republican Civil War and the Rise of President Trump amazon.com

Rio Carnival 2019 [HD] - Floats & Dancers youtube.com

Paris - Moulin Rouge show and dinner youtube.com

People need far more than they get in a conventional college program. Need far more to know how you want to live, what values you want to support. College is always too limited, too narrow, and out of date.

Most college is already too much like job training, too narrow, and too shallow, inherently exploitative.

And then there is this legitimacy issue. Young adults are under incredible pressure to conform in their aspirations. And so this is forced pertaining to college. They can only do what is considered legitimate.

And then since with your impacted programs in elite colleges, these are largely incompatible with even part time employment. And the school programs themselves are pretty much forced to be full time.

So the college program locks out everything else, and so one is forced to derive their social legitimacy from that program. This then makes one take the interpretation which is being pitched. Hard to defend any alternative interpretation.

I needed far more breadth and far more depth. Certainly like that for me, and I needed much much more. I needed to be able to be a creative person, like an artist, in what every I was to do. College exposed me to many things, and I did learn much, but it still amounted to a continuation of adolescence, delayed adult status.

SJG

Energy Critical Elements aps.org

College tends for force people to accept mainstream and societally approved aspirations. As such what they can learn is constrained and limited. And their original goals get twisted.

We need something different.

SJG

People need far more than they get in a conventional college program. Need far more just to know how you want to live, what values you want to support. College is always too limited, too narrow, and out of date.

Most college is already too much like job training, too narrow, and too shallow, inherently exploitative.

And then there is this legitimacy issue. Young adults are under incredible pressure to conform in their aspirations. And so this is forced pertaining to college. They can only do what is considered legitimate.

And then since with your impacted programs in elite colleges, these are largely incompatible with even part time employment. And the school programs themselves are pretty much forced to be full time.

So the college program locks out everything else, and so one is forced to derive their social legitimacy from that program. This then makes one take the interpretation which is being pitched. Hard to defend any alternative interpretation.

I needed far more breadth and far more depth. Certainly like that for me, and I needed much much more. I needed to be able to be a creative person, like an artist, in what every I was to do. College exposed me to many things, and I did learn much, but it still amounted to a continuation of adolescence, delayed adult status.

College tends for force people to accept mainstream and societally approved aspirations. As such what they can learn is constrained and limited. And their original goals get twisted.

We need something different!

SJG

Looked this up and talked about his before, wrote to them many years ago to get their groups listing.

Socrates Cafe

socratescafe.com

“What we need is intensive and informed discussion of the inhuman tendencies in our society, of its faults and dangers, and of possible means of counteraction. We do not need a totally different society but rather an awareness of what is wrong in our society…that is supplemented by caring and accepting some responsibility.“ — Walter A. Kaufmann, philosopher, 1922-1981

Walter A. Kaufmann has written a mountain of extremely good books.

Okay as recently as a couple of years ago you still had to deal with them by snail mail to find out where the groups are. And still only about 70 listed groups.

meetup.com

Not sure the new stuff even works.

Yeah they have some in the bay area, and Sacramento. No longer in San Jose.

Their Founder en.wikipedia.org

amazon.com

When this first started it received accolades and Phillips got awards. Not it has diversified some, but I still think it is rather small.

And hard to make things like this work out or go very deep with the general public. What my group does will go deeper, but this is just for our people.

SJG

I majored in electrical engineering because it was what I was most interested in, not because I used some kind of "how much money will I make" calculus. It turns out that it was a good way to make a lot of money, especially if you're above-average creative, as I was. While in college I took courses in philosophy -- best optional courses for setting a foundation for future learning and thought. After making enough money I switched to less lucrative fields -- got a masters in music, for e.g. You don't really understand anything until you've learned several diverse fields in enough depth to start connecting them.

I am glad that that all worked out for you. And I agree with:

"You don't really understand anything until you've learned several diverse fields in enough depth to start connecting them."

did you find any problems when you were an electrical engineering major, I mean problems with college, such as being marginalized or feeling like you were having to live in an extended adolescence?

SJG

I'm not sure what you mean, SJG. How would my being an EE major imply those things?

I don't know that EE or any other major would imply anything in particular.

But part of my impetus for starting this thread is that there are built in problems with conventional colleges.

Buy conventional college I mean:

1. Classes that meet at certain times, class syllabi, homework, exams

2. Intended for full time students, and basically you have to do what you are told.

And then EE has often been one of what is known as an impacted program. That is, they have more students who want to get in, but cannot because there is not enough room. So with such programs, it gets very competitive.

One of the results of this is that it becomes very problematic if you wanted to have even part time employment.

So then even if money were no issue, your entire social identity depends on being a college student. So in my opinion this makes you vulnerable to being perceived as immature. Really, a kind of an extension of adolescence.

And such elite colleges have a very narrow social demographic of students. High percentage white, and usually quite well off.

So for example here in CA we have as our most advanced publicly run schools, the University of California, with 10 campuses. This is the hardest to get into and has the highest percentage of graduate students. But in addition to this we also have California State University, with 23 campuses, and a smaller percentage of graduate students and only up to Master's degrees.

But despite this difference, the CSU students are of a higher average age than the UC students.

And then we have at least 50x 2 year community colleges, offering AA degrees and AS degrees, and most anybody can get in. But the students in these are actually of a higher average age than CSU.

So I have put these ideas out here, and some agree with me on aspects of it, that these elite schools which have a very narrow monoculture, can actually be very oppressive. And then they really aren't the best way to learn to start with.

Part of why I am interested in these ideas is simply that when I first joined this forum it was right after the Elliot Rodger Spree Shooting incident at UC Santa Barbara and its adjacent town of Isla Vista.

And Rodger had written a 130 page manuscript which some are calling a thesis or a manifesto.

I do not agree with what Rodger did, or with his explanations and rationalizations. But you can't look at the news coverage or read and listen to his manuscripts and videos without feeling his pain.

Well, we have had so many high school shootings, and we have had lots of college shootings.

And then Rodger is the first one I know of who took upon himself this label, INCEL, "Involuntary Celibate". Though I do not agree with it, I still think it worth understanding.

Elliot Rodger tuscl.net

My feeling is that for every case which ends in a big bang like Elliot Rodger, there are 10,000 more where the anguish is just as high, but just nothing happens which reveals this.

And then with the high school shootings there have been attempts to explain them:

amazon.com

Yes, part of it is just our whole society, and part of it is the NRA. But they are also saying that there is something about these high schools. Columbine was the one which really shock people up.

About Rodger and UC, no one is saying that there is anything wrong about the school.

So we have some on this forum who do believe that there is a problem with these homogeneous mono-culture elite schools. We have some on this forum who have had to work to get money though out their schooling, and they found the way the school operated to have been a problem.

We have a local historian with UC Berkeley Gray Brechin who has written that even the publicly run colleges and universities benefit the rich more than they do the poor, they increase the wealth gap.

And today we have had more of these college shooters who claim the INCEL label.

So if you think what I'm saying is wrong or nonsense, okay. No offense intended. But I really would like to know what you think.

One on this forum says that college is the time when you are the closest to the largest number of hot young women, so it should be a paradise.

What do you think?

SJG

I don't really feel I was typical. I was valedictorian of my high school, and even incidental expenses at my state university were paid for. It seemed to me that there were a wide range of wealth background, and if anything, the wealthier were more likely to be made fun of. I was raised in a sexually repressed household, so I didn't really know what to do with a woman. I couldn't call myself an incel, just a horny ignoramus. It's the old, if I knew then what I know now. Looking back there were many fine woman just waiting to be plucked, but I didn't have any clue how to harvest them. If only. Now, I can't seem to catch up -- so many lovely breasts to hold, so many lips to taste.

To me it doesn't seem like there's many girls waiting to be plucked in college. They seem very closed off to me. Most of my friends have completely given up on the girls at my college and claim to have had more success when they broaden the search radius on their dating apps to girls from different areas and age ranges. Personally, I've had far more success with girls who are a few years removed from college than with college girls.

I'd actually argue that, far from the sexual paradise many have made it out to be, college is one of the most difficult times to get laid you'll ever have in your life. I definitely had it easier in high school, and when I have interacted with girls who are college graduates I have also had it easier.

How old are you, cc? I graduated college in '77. I suspect that they times have changed.

21, approaching 22.

Tinder has really changed the game and not for the better. I've seen girls' Tinder profiles and they literally have upwards of 1,000+ matches in my medium sized college town. How is a guy supposed to compete with that?

I'd argue its probably just as bad in urban areas and that one should stay off Tinder entirely. Making real world approaches is a far more effective tactic.

completely different world from my college days. The chatroom had yet to be invented, let alone dating apps.

loper, thanks for explaining more.

Again, much of my interest in this kind of matter is simply the Elliot Rodger 2014 incident. He was at UC Santa Barbara. The UC schools tend to be elite in that they are:

1. The hardest to get into.
2. Generally very few of the students are employed even part time, except maybe for on the campus. This means that their social experience is limited. A man being in such a state may be likely to be considered immature, and hence of lower interest to town girls, or non-elite girls.
3. Fraternities and Sororities play a larger role in student life and student identity.

You have spoken of a State University. That sounds like our CSU system. These are what used to be sometimes called, "Teacher's Colleges".

I am not saying that the education is any less than excellent. I am not diminishing what is learned. But they are easier to get into, and they have a smaller percentage of graduate students. But despite these differences, they have a higher average age of students.

This has to tell us something, that it is not all defined by academics. Rather it is more defined by socio-economics. So at the CSU you get a more diverse group of students. And then many will have outside work experience and be holding part time jobs. So students will not have their identity rooted solely in school.

So UC Santa Barbara is known as a party school. I am sure it turns out many fine graduates. And for example, a EE major would likely be a very serious student, even starting in their first year.

But from people I know who have gone their, the biggest major is Business-Economics, followed by Psychology. And it is known as a party school. And in many majors I would say that the lower division work is not that hard.

So Elliot Rodger ended up there because he had no direction in life. He had some work experience, but not much. He had been at 3 different Community Colleges, but he had completed no courses. He was not a party student. It was simply that he could not stand to be in classes that had girls.

At UCSB he was ostensibly and English Major. He completed one course.

UCSB is known as a party school, and most of the students live in this small unincorporated patch adjacent to the school known as Isla Vista. And this is also where the Frats and Sororities are.

The idea of sending Elliot to a full time 4 year residential university which was out of town, seems to have come from the birth mother. And she bought Elliot the BMW 3 series Coupe.

But the father Peter seems to have been the one who came up with the idea that it should be UCSB. And it was this Isla Vista, a party area, almost all students.

Elliot's life had been transformed into a problem to be solved, and Elliot went along with this. So Peter felt that the Elliot problem would get solved in that he would get laid.

My view is that when one's life has been defined that way, as a problem to be solved, then that person's legitimacy has been trashed, and very little progress will be made.

It just so happened that right after the 2014 incident, I mean a few days, I happened to meet someone who was a councilor of students at CSU Fresno.

That school is very diverse, highly Hispanic, as was this highly politically involved councilor. We talked.

I had come to accept the Newman hypothesis which was advanced to explain high school shootings: amazon.com

Her idea is that these shootings where happening in ex-urban places, like for example Columbine. There you have no economic or racial diversity. You have a monoculture.

But you also have a very low crime rate, very low rate of students with criminal records, and a very low rate of guns in the school.

Whereas in urban inner city schools it is the opposite. There you have a high outside crime rate, a high rate of students with records, and a high rate of guns in the school. But these places do not seem to have these rampage shootings.

In the ex-urban schools you have these shootings, and the shooters are usually people who have never been in trouble with the law, never been involved in gang violence or anything else.

The Newman hypothesis was that these ex-urban high schools are homogenious mono-cultures and that some students eventually crack.

Whereas with the high crime rate inner city schools, there are lots of social niches, and non-conformists will find their place somewhere.

So I asked the question, was UCSB also a homogeneous mono-culture which some students likely find very oppressive? My view was that yes it was, and that if Elliot had been at one of our 23 CSU's, it doulc have gone much differently.

I explained all of this to this new Councilor I had met from CSU Fresno, and he agreed with me.

But know one is saying this about the incident.

I watched the news videos of the students having their candlelight vigils, and I felt a pit forming in my stomach. It was exactly what I had felt of the news videos of the students at Columbine.

But again, no one is talking about this conformist aspect of it. And Elliot had very little experience in other kinds of places, more like CSU.

I am not saying that I have all the answers or that I have this all figured out. No, I really want to know what other people think.

SJG

Procol Harem 1967 youtube.com

en.wikipedia.org so this first album would have included Robin Trower

Two Big Girls, like?

tuscl.net

tuscl.net

original thread: tuscl.net

There are a couple of other interrelated issues which come into play.

Now first of all let me say that my own background is complex. But as I am involved in both above ground and clandestine political and legal issues, I have had to become my own CIA.

So the upshot is that I cannot exchange confidences. I have to keep my f2f life completely separate from this forum.

I hope that no one takes this personally.

And now I am not faulting anyone for their life choices. I am just reporting on some conflicts I have observed.

So let me start here, this gets into conflicts which are built into our society, and to the extreme amount of pressure which is placed upon young adults to conform in their aspirations. It is related to the type of school one is going to as well.

It has long been that the people who actually hold the detailed skills are not the ones who get the big money. It is rather those who do the selling, those who do the promoting, and those who make the deals, who get the lion share of the money.

So then the issue of EE degrees has been raised. I have known zillions of people with double EE degrees. I my estimation just writing a resume and a cover letter does not get such a person that much money. It is more than burger king. It is about on par with what Police and Firefighters get.

But it is probably less than what a good Real Estate Agent gets.

I have known degreed EE's who have pointed out that it is the Technicians on the factory lines who are getting more. Part of the reason for this is that they get overtime.

But then also, car salesman can get more. Construction workers might be getting more. Even a proficient Bar Tender, if they keep their tips off of the books, they might be getting more.

Am I mistaken? If I am, then please just attribute my ignorance to a lack of accurate information, and please do correct me.

But if there is something to what I am asking about, then it gets into another issue. What are you working for, how do you measure your results? Is it just about money, is that the only objective?

Or is it about something else, do you see the work you do as a personal statement of values? Do you pride yourself on the knowledge that you use, and on the ways that you use it? Do you see your work as serving creative, artistic, and even humanitarian goals?

Sometimes the people who get the most money are simply hired guns. They don't really have anything of themselves in vested in what they do, but they are quire proficient and they do do what they are told.

One problem is that if the answer is YES, you might find that not everyone recognizes this, and so your legitimacy is constantly under fire.

If you see that it is about knowledge, mathematical beauty, technical prowess and a kind of art, but other's see it as just being like a car salesman, how many did I sell today, and how much money? Then there is eventually going to be conflict.

And this issue does limit how much one can learn, and what sorts of things one can learn about.

So in my view, part of what is needed is alternative form of education, different types of schools.

So thank you for listening, and what do people think?

tuscl.net

SJG

Big Girl, like? tuscl.net

Society for Sacred Sexuality sss-now.org

inanna.virtualave.net

Also the Epic of Gilgamesh depends on bringing one temple prostitute out to stay with Gilgamesh and fuck him for several days in order to tame him.

Meals 4 Heels theguardian.com

Amsterdam youtube.com

Cats are the only asocial animal we have successfully domesticated. We’re disappointed that we don’t bond with them as easily as dogs. But are we just missing the signs? bbc.com

Steve Jobs Said 1 Thing Separates Successful People From Everyone Else (and Will Make All the Difference In Your Life) getpocket.com

Forget You - CeeLo Green (cover) youtube.com

There IS Life After College

amazon.com

SJG

So we need alternative schools which allow people to educate themselves, supervised independent studies.

In a conventional school you may be of legal age, but you are still socially seen as something less than an adult. So unless you go to that very narrow college culture, then like Elliot Rodger, you are in a stigmatized status.

Should not have to be like this. Balanced relevant work, studies, social life. Not being stuck in a sub adult stigmatized status.

My organization will provide this.

SJG

tuscl.net

New San Francisco DA:

Boudin descends from a long left-wing lineage. His great-great-uncle, Louis B. Boudin,[8] was a Marxist theoretician and author of a two-volume history of the Supreme Court's influence on American government, and his grandfather Leonard Boudin was an attorney who represented controversial clients such as Fidel Castro and Paul Robeson.

en.wikipedia.org

Boudin was born in New York City.[1] His parents, Kathy Boudin and David Gilbert, were Weather Underground members.[2]

When Boudin was 14 months old, his parents were arrested for murder in their role as getaway car drivers in the Brink's robbery of 1981 in Rockland County, New York.[1][3] His mother was sentenced to 20 years to life[4] and his father to 75 years to life for the felony murders of two police officers and a security guard.[5] After his parents were incarcerated, Boudin was raised in Chicago by adoptive parents Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, who, like his parents, had been members of the Weather Underground.[6] Kathy Boudin was released under parole supervision in 2003.[

Both parents Weather Underground Members. Both served time, father still serving time.

I wonder what his views are on P4P and strip club mileage and FRMOS's?

Very easy to come up with alternative education schemes. But the essential part is that which remains unstated, that their is safety in numbers. It works when you can create an alternative social realm within which this education is being pursued.

SJG

Conventional schools, they take your interests and draw you into a program. But especially in a more elite school, it is all full time and fully encompassing. You need more than what the school can offer.

But they also draw you into main stream values, so it is not anymore so much that your interests lead to Ends Activities, that is things which have value in an of themselves. I guess this is more how artists seek to live.

Rather, your interests are pitched a much more herd oriented way, as leading to Means Activities, things which only have value for what later derives from them, like stable career and income.

They make your interests be about something other than what you intended.

And then on top of that they don't give you the breath needed to find your own way, and they don't give you the depth you need to really come from an authoritative position.

SJG

So when I was in college, I met someone who was going to a school which did have an alternative program.

He was a double major, Math and Physics. And he was then in a Calculus class.

Well I had just completed a Calculus course, year long. So I asked him, what would be different about your Calculus class compare to the one i was just in?

So he explained, well the first day our instructor put something up on the black board and asked who could prove it, on the black board. So by the time the hour ended, every single student was up at the black board trying to figure out how to do a proof. Was your class like that?

No it was not, we were assigned homework, and usually every time something new was introduced there was audible groaning. On the whole, many of the faculty were quite impressive, but the students generally were not.

So my friend asked me, "For your class did they assign a text book?"

Well of course they did.

Friend continued explaining that at the end of that first day, they all stormed their professor asking him to recommend a book to them which they could get which would help them be able to learn this.

So yes, I had to concede that that was very different from the kinds of classes I had, where students generally had a bad attitude, wanted degrees, but not an education. Say education as limited to what they would need to know in the work place, as they understood it.

A pretty negative environment.

But of the Alternative Program, I have talked with others and they say, "Well what can you do with a degree like that?"

Again the bad attitude. Finally I realized that if you want people who actually are going to learn, then you need to have it that way, disrespected by the Muggles, cause that is the only way to keep them out.

SJG

Refuting IceyLoco's Thesis:

I have floated the idea that in elite colleges, it can be a really bad place for a man to be.

In part this based on the Elliot Rodger episode. But in part it is based on:

amazon.com

They say that the women at these schools, they do not want relationships or marriage. They are on track for high powered careers, and so they will pursue relationships and marriage later on, after they have their own high powered careers, and with men who also have the same.

So the idea that "I am a college student" does not carry much weight.

Now by elite school I am trying to use that the same way that the above authors do. It will tend to have the youngest students, and have the fewest students who are employed.

See here in CA we have:

1. University of California.
2. California State University
3. Community Colleges.

Okay #3 is the easiest to get into and is lower division only.

#2 Is just a small bit harder to get into, it is 4 years, and has some Master's Degree students.

#1 is the hardest to get into, harder courses, higher percentage of grad students, and doctoral students.

But it is actually #1 which has the lowest average age, and then #2 after it. Oldest age in #3.

So what this means is that what school you go to is mostly a matter of the socio-economic standing of your parents.

So if you are in #1, the elite school, you probably will not be employed.

So for a male this amounts to an extension of adolescence. So except for those who really take to that extended adolescence and comply with some social type norms, the man will be looked down on. So this makes it tough, and hence the Elliot Rodger Scenario. He could not stand to be around girls, really it was because they were denying his masculinity. So wanted to be away from them, to be rid of them.

So IceyLoco has said that college is when you are around the most young women.

Well so what? You only need a few to keep yourself happy. The rest add nothing.

And then, in this county we have 2Meg persons, 3x 4 year colleges, and 7x 2 year colleges. The adjoining counties have their own similar stuff.

So living here right now I am amidst those college girls, plus a whole lot more girls. Not on the same dorm floor, but there are places to approach girls.

Actually it is harder to engage with current college girls.

Most of the time, in my view, the girls easiest to make something happen with a are girls in the work force. Paying their own rent, not supported by their parents, recognizing that this will be their life unless something changes.

These girls, for the most part, they are mercenary.

But if you are a college student they tend to look down on you.

In my view, women are viciously judgemental about a guy and his money earning. If he is not selling himself for money, then in their view he does not even deserve to breath air.

When they are approached by a guy, this is what they are most interested in checking out and finding out about.

In places where just the place, and his manner of dress insure that he is well employed, girls tend to be very aggressive.

So I have from time to time reason to be on our college campuses. It has actually been then that I have had girls throwing themselves at me.

Even at Stanford, for example, girls usually from well off families, they are coming on to me, complementing me on how i am dressed.

I did not plan this! I don't even really like it because I can see how they think.

I walk across the campus for some legit purpose, they see that I am older, and dressed such that I look to be well employed. And I am dressed exactly as I am at my work place. They are coming on to me.

Similar visiting at the other 4 year and our 2 year schools.

Girls working in major department stores, the same way. It is all socio-economics and perceived worldliness.

At UC Berkeley, at their law school, they finally had to make the library restricted to those with current law school id. Because, as I was told, so many girl want to get in there and "make goo-goo eyes" at the young law school men. And the girls say that they can tell if a guy has a girl or not, by how he responds to them putting the ray on him. This is what the girls think.

So I go back to what I tried to say, that typically for a man in an elite college, it can be real hell, because he is seen as immature, yet to be tested, and women dismiss him. It is the college women and the out of college women.

And though college may put you in proximity to lots of young women, it is the post college and non-college women who are easiest to move on. Young woman paying her own rent, most of the time she is so relationship focused that she is about to implode.

So college has lots of problems. For every Elliot Rodger there are 1000's of other cases where just never anything really dramatic happens.

And this does limit the quality and breadth and depth of education someone is likely to get.

So I feel that I am right, and that IceyLoco was wrong.

:) :) :)

But no one is talking about any of these issues regarding Elliot Rodger.

SJG

He tried to talk to girls, he just never got very far.

He got to where he could not stand to be around them because he saw them as denying his masculinity.

Matters of identity are not really in one's head, they are in the relationship they have with the world, the place they have in it, the place which was left for them.

Elliot was wrong to interpret that the problem was coming from the young women. This is giving them more credit for individual agency than they deserve. Women say they have feelings, but really it is more like their feelings have them. So they key on cues of social legitimation or de-legitimation. You cannot just tune this out. Denial is never a sound option. So it is not just in one's head.

Elliot could have had a chance if his parents were held responsible, and mostly that would mean an open ended and boundless financial responsibility. This would show everyone that his parents were wrong and that our society does not allow people to do that to a child.

With this first objective of holding the parents publicly accountable, then Elliot could have gone other places and could have talked to people and found what was right for him.

As far as wanting to kill people, well this is where the Manosophere Movement and the National Rifle Association come in. Their doctrine of violent retribution is the same as the doctrine of the Republican Party.

Now reading about te**o*ism and the Irish Republican Party. When one is delegitimated beyond a point, they really have no alternatives. Taking a homicide conviction or being killed by police is far less severe than living a life of delegitimation.

Elliot was wrong in the conclusions that he drew. The young women were not the real antagonists, it was his parents and our whole society.

Elliot was being influenced by this Manosophere Movement. But given how Elliot saw things, he really had no other alternatives. He was totally boxed in.

SJG

For Elliot to have had another option he would first have had to have found a way to rebuke his parents, all three of them.

Very hard, really only our entire society can do that, buy judging them wrong and Elliot right.

SJG

Elliot really had three choices:

1. Kill his parents

2. Kill himself

3. Kill the young women

Option 1 was impossible because though he said he wanted to kill them, he was afraid to kill Peter.

So he picked option 3 to better draw attention to option 2.

Pretty standard now with most of these rampage killers, always really suicides. Elliot stood out because of his eugenic type of indictment against the young women, in his manifesto.

People do kill their parents, for the entire country its about 300 per year, making for about 2% of the general homicide rate. So for a metro of 1 million people, that will be about parricide per year.

Based on the new evidence in the Menendez Brother's case, and based on what we have learned more about of in child sexual abuse, almost impossible that Lyle and Erik would have been convicted of murder one, or of gotten a life sentence. Likely they would be out by now, because they have been in the CDCR for 25 years.

Got to meet Paul Mones, at our court house. amazon.com

SJG

Socially awkward is just a copout, making his experience of injustice into a self improvement project.

If he tried to go through his life without publicly rebuking his parents, then it would have been like going through life with a Kick Me sign nailed to his back.

Young women would pick up on it. as would everyone else.

He needed a way of publicly rebuking his parents, and in a highly consequential way.

Telling people to just stuff it does not good. Trying to do that will seriously harm them.

Being able to find comrades would have helped him, but that is hard. Religion, Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, the Self-Improvement Industry, and the Autism Industry all serve to break down political consciousness.

SJG

Elliot Rodger was not Socially Awkward, he is as socially smart as anyone else.

But he had tattooed onto his body a sign which said, "I am the reject of the middle-class family, so I am trying to prove my worthiness."

The only way he could have gotten this off of him would have been to deliver a public rebuke to his parents, especially the Father Peter.

So there was no way he could "work on himself", because there was nothing to work on. He had no legitimated public self, and he never could have had such until he rebuked his parents.

SJG

Re-posting something from above:

People need far more than they get in a conventional college program. Need far more just to know how you want to live, what values you want to support. College is always too limited, too narrow, and out of date.

Most college is already too much like job training, too narrow, and too shallow, inherently exploitative.

And then there is this legitimacy issue. Young adults are under incredible pressure to conform in their aspirations. And so this is forced pertaining to college. They can only do what is considered legitimate.

And then since with your impacted programs in elite colleges, these are largely incompatible with even part time employment. And the school programs themselves are pretty much forced to be full time.

So the college program locks out everything else, and so one is forced to derive their social legitimacy from that program. This then makes one take the interpretation which is being pitched. Hard to defend any alternative interpretation.

I needed far more breadth and far more depth. Certainly like that for me, and I needed much much more. I needed to be able to be a creative person, like an artist, in what every I was to do. College exposed me to many things, and I did learn much, but it still amounted to a continuation of adolescence, delayed adult status.

College tends for force people to accept mainstream and societally approved aspirations. As such what they can learn is constrained and limited. And their original goals get twisted.

Think about it, in a trade school people are lectured at and they get watered down text books, but they don't get the real stuff. Well I feel that lots of other types of college are also the same way.

We need something different!

SJG

Yes - Yours Is No Disgrace - Live at Beat-Club - 1971 youtube.com

There is Life After College amazon.com

There is life after college : what parents and students should know about navigating school to prepare for the jobs of tomorrow / Jeffrey J. Selingo. (2016)

The path of the everyday hero : drawing on the power of myth for solving life's most important challenges / Lorna Catford, Michael Ray. (1991)

Do what you love, the money will follow : discovering your right livelihood / Marsha Sinetar. (1989)

Reposting from above, and about the book Marriage Markets:

They say that the women at these schools, they do not want relationships or marriage. They are on track for high powered careers, and so they will pursue relationships and marriage later on, after they have their own high powered careers, and with men who also have the same.

So the idea that "I am a college student" does not carry much weight.

Now by elite school I am trying to use that the same way that the above authors do. It will tend to have the youngest students, and have the fewest students who are employed.

See here in CA we have:

1. University of California.
2. California State University
3. Community Colleges.

Okay #3 is the easiest to get into and is lower division only.

#2 Is just a small bit harder to get into, it is 4 years, and has some Master's Degree students.

#1 is the hardest to get into, harder courses, higher percentage of grad students, and doctoral students.

But it is actually #1 which has the lowest average age, and then #2 after it. Oldest age in #3.

So what this means is that what school you go to is mostly a matter of the socio-economic standing of your parents.

So if you are in #1, the elite school, you probably will not be employed.

So for a male this amounts to an extension of adolescence. So except for those who really take to that extended adolescence and comply with some social type norms, the man will be looked down on. So this makes it tough, and hence the Elliot Rodger Scenario. He could not stand to be around girls, really it was because they were denying his masculinity. So wanted to be away from them, to be rid of them.

So IceyLoco has said that college is when you are around the most young women.

Well so what? You only need a few to keep yourself happy. The rest add nothing.

And then, in this county we have 2Meg persons, 3x 4 year colleges, and 7x 2 year colleges. The adjoining counties have their own similar stuff.

So living here right now I am amidst those college girls, plus a whole lot more girls. Not on the same dorm floor, but there are places to approach girls.

Actually it is harder to engage with current college girls.

Most of the time, in my view, the girls easiest to make something happen with a are girls in the work force. Paying their own rent, not supported by their parents, recognizing that this will be their life unless something changes.

These girls, for the most part, they are mercenary.

But if you are a college student they tend to look down on you.

In my view, women are viciously judgemental about a guy and his money earning. If he is not selling himself for money, then in their view he does not even deserve to breath air.

When they are approached by a guy, this is what they are most interested in checking out and finding out about.

In places where just the place, and his manner of dress insure that he is well employed, girls tend to be very aggressive.

So I have from time to time reason to be on our college campuses. It has actually been then that I have had girls throwing themselves at me.

Even at Stanford, for example, girls usually from well off families, they are coming on to me, complementing me on how i am dressed.

I did not plan this! I don't even really like it because I can see how they think.

I walk across the campus for some legit purpose, they see that I am older, and dressed such that I look to be well employed. And I am dressed exactly as I am at my work place. They are coming on to me.

Similar visiting at the other 4 year and our 2 year schools.

Girls working in major department stores, the same way. It is all socio-economics and perceived worldliness.

At UC Berkeley, at their law school, they finally had to make the library restricted to those with current law school id. Because, as I was told, so many girl want to get in there and "make goo-goo eyes" at the young law school men. And the girls say that they can tell if a guy has a girl or not, by how he responds to them putting the ray on him. This is what the girls think.

So I go back to what I tried to say, that typically for a man in an elite college, it can be real hell, because he is seen as immature, yet to be tested, and women dismiss him. It is the college women and the out of college women.

And though college may put you in proximity to lots of young women, it is the post college and non-college women who are easiest to move on. Young woman paying her own rent, most of the time she is so relationship focused that she is about to implode.

So college has lots of problems. For every Elliot Rodger there are 1000's of other cases where just never anything really dramatic happens.

And this does limit the quality and breadth and depth of education someone is likely to get.

So I feel that I am right, and that IceyLoco was wrong.

So we should be following Aristotle, it is better to pursue Ends Activities, rather than Means Activites. Education is very important and should be life long and it should be seen as an Ends Activity rather than a Means Activity.

Anytime I have found someone who seems to know something significant which I do not, I have tried to learn. Can't evaluate what he knows unless I know. College helped with this, but some was still watered down like a trade school. Trade school stuff people can learn on their own and in other ways.

SJG

Cream - White Room -1968 youtube.com

Guess Who - Come Undone youtube.com

Steppenwolf - Born To Be Wild 1968 youtube.com

Yes - Yours Is No Disgrace - Live at Beat-Club - 1971 - Remastered youtube.com

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Conventional College, it warps your interests. Even if the education is not so watered down, the label they want you to accept is, still too trades school.

Need philosophical basis, to be able to be authoritative, and to have breath to position yourself.

Still teaching you to be a striver, not a creator and leader.

And then still being seen as an adolescent and compared to frat boys. It really sucks.

Need a much broader and deeper eductation. And only you make any watering down decisions, not the school.

Conventional education can really fuck you up.

SJG

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Make no mistake, college was the first time I ever met adults who actually used their brains.

The adults that I had know previously had relinquished their brains. They just did what was required to get their paychecks, and what was required for family obligations. Nothing more.

So like some Math teachers talked about stuff they had done in college. But they did not continue this. They turned into Archie Bunker.

So in college I met some who were not like this, especially some professors who did things by Mathematical and Philosophical understanding.

So I got to see this, and I came to be inspired by this. But it doesn't track for me out of college any better than it does for most. We need more.

SJG

Introduction to Martinism, I think the other parts are coming. But the St. Martin writings are scarce, especially in translation youtube.com

People need to be learning a great deal more than they are now getting in primary and secondary school, or in college.

SJG

Philosophy, Theosophy, Theology, and even Philology.

What are these disciplines of study, and what differentiates them, and what are the main schools of thought within each?

As you know, I am reading A. E. Waite's book about Louis Claude St. Martin.

So I am reading this well into middle-age, and I still don't feel that I have a handle on it.

This kind of thinking has been around since the 18th Century, a kind of critique on religion.

Yet I came of age knowing nothing about it.

So I was reading Marilyn Ferguson's "Aquarian Conspiracy", in the mid 80's. For the first time I saw the world Rosicrucian. I had no idea what it meant. This was not like today with the Internet. I looked in dictionaries and encyclopedias and did not get much. But then, in the program for the San Jose Symphony I saw an advertisement for the Rosicrucian Order AMORC, and its Egyptian Museum.

google.com

And so I went the next morning. And it would be later by taking one of their classes that I learned about Martinism.

But I am still fighting to get what I would say is a real toe hold on any of it. And I do see AMORC as limited.

But my point is, why is my education so limited. Stuff from the 1700's and before, a kind of critique of western religion, but not widely understood at all!

Standard education is far too limited.

SJG

TJ Street tuscl.net tuscl.net tuscl.net tuscl.net tuscl.net tuscl.net

I think that at some level conventional college most always is a scam.

The lies would be:

1. That this is what you most need to be learning, and this is the best way to do it.

Truth, then is that you need to learn much more, and that there are many ways to learn it.

1. That this is the best way to be spending your time for now.

Truth, only you can decide how best to spend your time. Generally book learning, group learning, and work and free lance experience are good. College tends to be too restrictive.

1. College gives you valuable credentials for employment.

Truth, usually a college degree gets you little. Better to have some record of recent accomplishments, especially original work which you can show people and what they can understand.

People have some other ideas?

SJG

Consolidation of Earlier Posts:

People need far more than they get in a conventional college program. Need far more just to know how you want to live, what values you want to support. College is always too limited, too narrow, and out of date. Most college is already too much like job training, too narrow, and too shallow, hence inherently exploitative. And then there is this legitimacy issue. Young adults are under incredible pressure to conform in their aspirations. And so this is forced pertaining to college. They can only do what is considered legitimate. And then since with your impacted programs in elite colleges, these are largely incompatible with even part time employment. And the school programs themselves are pretty much forced to be full time.

So the college program locks out everything else, and so one is forced to derive their social legitimacy from that program. This then makes one take the interpretation which is being pitched. Hard to defend any alternative interpretation. I needed far more breadth and far more depth. Certainly like that for me, and I needed much much more. I needed to be able to be a creative person, like an artist, in what every I was to do. College exposed me to many things, and I did learn much, but it still amounted to a continuation of adolescence, delayed adult status. College tends for force people to accept mainstream and societally approved aspirations. As such what they can learn is constrained and limited. And their original goals get twisted. Think about it, in a trade school people are lectured at and they get watered down text books, they don't get the real math and science. Well I feel that lots of other types of college are also the same way. We need something different!

Conventional College, it warps your interests. Even if the education is not so watered down, the label they want you to accept is, still too trade school. Need to learn and critique the philosophical basis, to be able to be authoritative, and to have the breath needed to position yourself. Still teaching you to be a striver, not a creator and leader. And then still being seen as an adolescent and compared to frat boys. It really sucks. Need a much broader and deeper education. And only you should be making any watering down decisions, not the school. Conventional education can really fuck you up.

Make no mistake, college was the first time I ever met adults who actually used their brains. The adults that I had known previously had relinquished their brains. They just did what was required to get their paychecks, and what was required for family obligations. Nothing more. So like some Math teachers talked about stuff they had done in college. But they did not continue this. They had turned into Archie Bunker. So in college I met some who were not like this, especially some professors who did things by Mathematical and Philosophical understanding. So I got to see this, and I came to be inspired by this. But it doesn't track for me out of college any better than it does for most. We need more.

SJG

Isis and Kali Squats in High Heels i.pinimg.com

Reflecting back, about a week ago about some times near the end of my college years.

This girl I was seeing a bit. Still indeterminate if anything was going to come of it.

So this girl was renting a house out in the town where a lot of faculty lived. This one was out of the country. 3 girls living in the house.

So my girl was telling me something, the other girls were English Majors. So she said that these girls reject guys, saying, he hasn't read enough literature.

Only though she said it in a really affected way, "litrature".

And then of another saying that the BF one of them dumped wanted to spend all his time on the weekends in the Physics Building.

Well of course these girls have a right to live how they want and to make their own decisions. Thinking in retrospect I feel that they were just making up excuses, meaningless excuses to reject guys, guys who they basically did not like.

So while some would see this as feminism, I do not. Its is more like Cosmo Girl stuff. Except that these girls I do not think were doing much fucking, like maybe none. They were talking about guys and bitching about them.

Feminism wants to get women out of these narrowly defined social identities.

Now of course I could see that the negative statements were also being directed at me.

So how does one handle that, and how would I handle it today?

You can't fight it directly, you can't even really fight it all all.

The best result is just not to be there listening to her.

One could try to fast fuck her. I had not done that, not used to trying to push girls out of their comfort envelope. Would not have felt comfortable doing that. But if you do that, likely get results. She won't be so disrespectful of you then.

But than anyway, probably there won't really be any relationship anyway. But at least you have driven it, and so exit with some honor.

Otherwise, I know that that girl was a head case, things she is better than everyone else.

But you can see the problems, like what about the guy in the Physics Building, a grad student, feels that he should be there, likely has to work very very hard.

That gets him not one iota of respect with these girls. Makes him an object of contempt.

Well again, I still see your harder core colleges as having a built in problem.

SJG

^^^^^^ So I was getting stepped on, walked on.

But I see this as coming just from the fact that I full time student, hence seen as less than an adult.

Going in to the work force, I have never been treated this badly by women. Most of the time they are trying to ambush me.

Doesn't mean things always go easy. but they are radically better than back then.

I would not want to be in college like that again. But I also know that I did and still do need more education.

Do people agree with me or not?

SJG

I was facing an impediment. Further education meant being walked on by women, as I was not seen as a real adult, by virtue of being a full time highly committed student.

And then I was inexperienced, and hence I was naive and immature by normative standards. I was living in a compromised state.

For those of the normative mono-culture it might not have been this way. But for them education meant much less anyway, more just Degree Seeking.

SJG

^^^^^ The girl described above, she saw the world in socio-economic tiers, and she was very materialistic. Everything was about the grade of conspicuous stuff you owned. She talked about stuff like this all the time, expressing very judgemental views of people.

She saw herself as pursuing a high powered high income career. And of course she judged men by these standards.

I don't think she was very sexually active.

Her mother was a top executive in a critical institution. So this girl was not needing to escape from a legacy of domesticity.

I do not see her as a feminist though, as feminism seeks to break down the categories, all the categories this girl was deeply committed to.

As pseudo feminist, yes, just the superficial aspect of careerism, yuppieism.

Tough on me cause I was just a student. And I was not necessarily thinking high powered career, thinking more intellectual content.

So I was at a disadvantage as the world I lived in was still very small. Had to drop a really good town GF some time back because she took up too much time, and I had homework sets to do, and things to learn. Did not want to be far from school or paying the transportation costs.

I see now most any female relations would have conflicted with my schooling, either directly, or like with this girl in a values conflict.

So I still do not see feminism as the issue, I see it as student status, and maybe pseudo feminism and yuppieism.

Freeman Dyson goes on and on damning our German derived PhD system. He says it general means delayed marriage.

Well today maybe people don't think about it that way, delaying marriage. Because of the Sexual Revolution people expect sex without marriage. But maybe that is not really there, not so easily. Classmates talked about this, but not about lack of sex, more about time constraints making that a necessity. They did not call it this, but they had to become Vocel.

At that time in my life I had very little money. There was no way I would have every thought about P4P sex.

I still see the problem as coming from the type of higher education we have. And that education is very far from what is needed in a learning sense too.

These kinds of conflicts and problems I see as indicative of a damaged social and civil standing.

And the only way of changing such is by fighting back. Letting someone lecture to you about self-improvement is just more abuse.

SJG

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