Friends First?

Another point. FONDL, how tall are you? How much of what women "typically" want, can you offer? Full dark hair, square jaw, nice clothes and car, deep voice, stable demeanor, all that other "hyper-masculine" stuff? I ask, because I tend to find, that men who offer semi-platitudinous panacaeas like "just be yourself" are actually men who have a lot of advantages over other men. Like when I was in high school and recommended to the students who were getting bad grades, that they needed to "pay attention in class" more. For me, that was all it took -- I have a phenomenal verbal memory, and therefore intrinsically and automatically knew anything the teacher said. But they weren't so blessed ... and my advice was misguided, even patronizing.

Yup. Agreed. I was just playing devil's advocate ... but it's a good point, worth mentioning anyway. :)

BookGuy, if you are trying to attract women who don't find who you really are to be appealing, no strategy will work. You need to find a woman who really does like you for who you are if you ever want to have a successful relationship. If you aren't meeting such women in the places you hang out, my advice is to change the type of place where you hang out.

What if "myself" is someone she doesn't like? What if YOURself is a character that's really appealing to women, and THAT's why "being myself" has been working for you? What advice would you give to those of us who aren't YOU? Hmm ...

Quicksand, I always found that what works best was just being yourself. If you try to imitate someone else's style, sooner or later she'll discover that you're a phoney and dump you. Plus it's very uncomfortable trying to be someone else for any length of time.

If you believe him, Ross Jeffries of seduction.com says that once a woman pulls a LJBF -- Let's Just Be Friends -- on you it becomes almost impossible to make her into a lover. So it behooves you to sexualize your relationship with your target woman from the beginning to nip LJBF in the bud. As for how to do that, see the Web site.

Chandler, I was answering what I consider a theoretical (or perhaps rhetorical) question with a theoretical answer. I don't go to strip clubs looking for a lover and never did. I assume from our discussions that no one else here does either. Looking for love in all the wrong places ...

FONDL: Theoretical, but hopefully not too far astray from Doug's question, namely...

"what to believe and what not to believe about what dancers say and/or do. What is real, what is fake ... Is it necessary to first become friends ... before things can proceed to true intimacy in OTC situations?"

FONDL: I'm talking about having enough understanding to answer Doug's question. If you're convinced it's all random, then I suppose it's easier to go around believing every stripper who treats you like a friend could be your lover. My attitude is that if she could be, there won't be any question about it.

Chandler, if you're asking me if I understand women, the answer is no. Trying to predict what any woman will do is for me a total waste of time. As far as I can tell thier actions are totally random and as such are unpredictable, there are no patterns. I just try to react to the things I like and ignore the rest.

FONDL: One thing I find interesting is the common patterns in these relationships. If you don't recognize any patterns, good for you, but frankly, I would feel at a loss.

Chandler, your post is a perfect example of what I find interesting about this board - we've all had different experiences which have led to differing opinions. If that were not the case these discussions would be pretty boring.

FONDL: Let me put it this way with regard to Doug's question. It's a common mistake to believe that becoming friends ITC with a dancer means you may be on your way to becoming OTC lovers. If anything, it usually means that's less likely to happen than if you started on a different footing, whether you're talking about strippers or any woman you meet.

Chandler, as both you and Yoda well know, I like to generalize and do so a lot when I've had experiences that cause me to arrive at such opinions. I've just never had such experiences relative to this particular topic. I've known lots of friends who later became lovers, and lots of other lovers who started out that way. I've never noted any particular pattern that leads me to generalize about it. Your experiences may be different.

I never generalize ever.

You can't generalize at all, FONDL? Not even a little? Are you sure you're not overgeneralizing?

Many edifying generalizations have exceptions. What's important is to understand the principles behind them and learn when they apply to your situation. To completely disregard the differences between commerce and friendship or between friends and lovers would be as limiting as to always run your life by them. Especially when it comes to strip clubs and OTC antics.

I don't think you can generalize about this at all. There are just too many variables. I think if they're honest about it, many dancers have had sex OTC with a guy they met at the club. Some of them were customers they knew for a long time, some were guys they just met that night. And some were "free" (whatever that means) and some weren't. Everybody's different.

Yeah that is way too absolute, black and white.

I would say more, but I would rather wish you all health, happiness and may lapdances in the New Year!

Happy lapping!

I don't.

I agree with what Bones said.

Doug, it also depends on what kind of OTC you're talking about. If it's a paid encounter, then I can see how friendship could make all the difference with a girl who, ahem, would not normally do that. In most cases, however, all a girl requires - in addition to money, of course - is some degree of trust and comfort with you, short of being a friend or even a "club friend". Not that friendship would be a hindrance, either.

Now, if you're getting together for coffee or whatever, just to get better acquainted, then being friends in the club would definitely help. It stands to reason that at least the beginnings of something with potential should be there before she would want to spend more time with you.

However, if it's romance or casual sex you're talking about, then being friends is the last thing you want. Friendship takes away the mystery which romance needs. Romance is not friendship plus, and it doesn't come afterwards. They follow two different paths.

Personally, I'm not interested in any form of paid OTC, and I've rarely done the coffee thing. Casual sex is more my bag, although I never make it my goal. I try to relate with strippers like a lover not a friend, because I enjoy the experience in the club better that way. Occasionally, it just happens to lead to a wild time OTC. shrug But anytime I have become friends with a stripper, it has meant I can't enjoy her dances anymore.

Ok, after Bookguy said that the "quote" that I had attributed to him was not by him afterall, it began to bug the poo out of me, so I went back and waded through all of the recent topics and finally found the quote.

It was Mickkeyc that said, "You never know with a dancer where the bullshit ends and reality begins. (Say isn't that what most posts here are about?) "

Now, back to the topic: The definition of being a "friend" that I was using, is someone that can be trusted.

I believe that you DO have to be "friends first", in order to gain the dancers confidence to meet OTC. She has to know that you can be trusted not to force her to do things she doesn't want to do. She has to feel that she can be comfortable alone with you, and not worry that you could be planning to do her harm.

What kind of girl would agree to an OTC with someone that she knew nothing about? Well, the exception to the rule was a VERY hot dancer (totally my type in appearance) that I'd just met, and had a session of about 10 dances with. Before we were done with the third song, she was already asking me to "take the snake out to play". I did not feel comfortable with that in the environment we were in, so I asked if she would come back to the hotel when she got off. She said, "I'll do better than that... let's leave NOW!" and after she told the DJ she was leaving (she had to tip out), she followed me back to the hotel.

Becoming "friends" has led me to OTC arrangements with several girls that would normally not do that. That is the type of girl that I prefer and feel more comfortable with. I know it's shocked a few guys that have known these girls when they found out that these girls actually have met me OTC, because it seemed so out of character. Without the absolute trust, the OTCs would never have happened.

Of course you can never be absolutely certain, but I'm pretty sure that I was the first guy that my prev ATF met alone, OTC. As for my current ATF, I'm 95% sure that I'm the first, and most likely the only guy to OTC with her.

I believe it's true if a girl is sexually interested in you, she'll let you know pretty quickly or at least some girls will. They act first and then ask or make comments later as if they are justifying what they just did. I've had several females give me pretty strong suggestions they wanted to get to know me better. Apparently when I didn't pick up on that, some have gotten more aggressive in their questions or their actions. If they all looked as good as a playboy playmate, I would have gone along. It can get a bit annoying if a girl who is not your type is constantly hitting on you or making sexual suggestions to you. That was years ago in a different workplace.

I remember years ago I overheard some girls joking if I got left alone with one girl, she would jump my bones in a flash. I didn't even know who they were talking about.

Nice of you to reference me, DougS, about the "what is real" question regarding most of this board's posts. Sounds like it was a very intelligent comment. But I don't think that I made it. I'd be gratified to hear that I did, because I'd really be surprising myself with how I managed to be cogent for a brief period of my life. :P

Anyway, to the question at hand. Since I seldom have OTC "relationships" other than a one-session pay-for-play (which I might repeat at a later juncture but which, again, would be one session at a time), I can't really answer.

I think "friends" is the problem here. What do you mean by that word?

If by "friends" you mean, she trusts you not to be an axe murderer and she finds that the exchange of services for money is not too distasteful, then I suppose "friendship" is a necessary condition for OTC relationships.

If, on the other hand, by "friends" you mean, she appreciates your world-view, likes you around her when she's feeling blue, wants to introduce you to her mom, invites you along to a concert when she gets free tickets, and is thinking of naming her baby after you, then I don't think it has much to do with OTC at all. Or maybe even more, I dunno ...

Comfortable first? Yes. Friends first? Nope.

Once you are "friends" with a dancer you will probably never get laid.