Saving The San Francisco Strip Club Scene

To be continued.... is that a threat???

As I see it, three business models:

1. Alcohol, as some want it. But can't be nude and very easy to get shut down. Oakland probably has hooker bars. Is this sufficient?

2. Nude, retail biz. This is what has worked in SF. But zoning may prevent opening new clubs.

3. Membership Club, BYOB or No BYOB. Should get around zoning, as it is not retail. Now public sex or lewdness restrictions. 647B still applies, but impractical to enforce. Some won't like being a member, but most will. And this can be smaller, so the overhead is lower. Should be the perfect strip club and OTC hook up venue.

To Be Further Continued

SJG

San Francisco has insane real estate with Asian massage parlors every block.

Strip Clubs just don't make sense in the City.

San Jose Guy is a complete psycho! And a homosexual.

SJG, have you ever been to the Kit Kay club? Not sure what it's called nowadays, but back when I was single I used to have some fun there.

I have clubbed in SF and it is very expensive. O'Farrell theater was $20 to get in in the afternoon and $40 in the evening and that was 10+ years ago. A $1 tip at the rail was ignored. a $5 tip was expected. You might as well expect to spend $1000 to $1500 (then) to get what you can get in other cities including COI for $300 - $600.

Gaffigan,

The Sunnyvale Kit Kat Club is now called Cheetahs. Nice looking young women. When they first opened they tried to implement San Francisco style lap dancing of that era. Though the investigation took many months, it always does, people ended up having to post bail, and they were prosecuted. Most plead guilty or were convicted. In San Francisco they would not have done this, prosecute dancers, because the newpapers would have trashed the police and DA. But in this county, more conservative, it is still okay to prosecute dancers and no one else..

Since, it is strictly no touching, but nude and nice looking girls. It is very expensive, like cover charge, $40 air dances, and guys tipping on top of that.

For lots of reasons I have always felt that the Pink Poodle in San Jose is better run and more worth the costs.

Tiredtraveler, yes, San Francisco is very expensive. But I feel that much of this is due to a lack of competition, and also due to the clip joint business model employed by the one operator who controls most of the clubs and plans to be controlling all of them.

Nixur68 wrote, "San Francisco has insane real estate with Asian massage parlors every block.

Strip Clubs just don't make sense in the City."

Yes, I understand about the real estate prices :( :( :(

And I understand about the AMPs :) :) :).

But I don't understand your logic that strip clubs don't make sense.

What DV says is that real estate has to go to the highest paying use. And for strip clubs, that seems mean them with their various business models. And even at that they feel that nationwide it is a dying industry. And they feel that if they had not taken them over, many of the SF clubs would have gone out of business.

AMPs have their advantages. But overall, if it is run loosely, strip clubs can allow free form front room fraternizing. AMPs cannot do this because they are not intended to be hang out places. Front room fraternizing is what determines the quality of the back room experience.

SJG

Maybe I'm starting to understand Nixur68 now. If the real estate costs are that high, then maybe it is very hard for them to make it. So if you have them at all it probably will be some DV like 'system' for maximizing the money will minimizing the legal risks, and based on playing guys for chumps.

So then maybe anything new should be in Oakland. San Mateo and Marin Counties would never go along with it. Maybe in the Pittsburgh - Antioch area.

Oakland has ordinances, but these are unconstitutional. Still costly to go after these.

So the answer is the membership club, as this should get you out from any and all laws except the Penal Code, and especially 647b. But in practice, impractical to enforce.

Now someone has told me that the membership club model is illegal in California. I would like to see chapter on verse on this, as I doubt there is anyway they can do that.

The membership club model is the one pioneered by Swinger's Clubs. They use it to get around the laws against public sex and lewdness, and these would apply in any kind of a retail business. Maybe with Adult Entertainment, this is overlooked.

So there are or have been Swingers Clubs in Berkeley, Oakland, Hayward, Fremont, and some in San Francisco. San Francisco also had those two Power Exchange Clubs, one gay and one straight. They were for bondage and discipline.

About money being exchanged for sex, I do not know, and it could be argued that such is illegal. But no real way to prove it because what the law has defined as being criminal has no victim.

I have known of 3x swingers clubs where there did at least appear to be money being exchanged, based on what was written. They insist that that would destroy "The Lifestyle", and they are indeed correct. But this does not mean that they were not doing such. 2 or 3 of them are closed now, but I'm pretty sure no one was ever charged with any prostitution related offense. Again, zoning stuff and tearing down buildings.

So I presented 3 business models above, 1 = Alcohol, 2 = nude no alcohol, and 3 = membership club, and these can be BYOB or no alcohol.

So I say that it is always going to be harder to go very far when you have alcohol. Mostly it is because there are all sorts of rules which come with the license, and these can be enforced on a much lower standard of proof than a criminal prosecution.

So, DV runs alcohol clubs, let them continue.

Option 2, nude no alcohol, this is what has worked, but I still say it is not the best for pushing the envelope. If someone wants to do it, let them.

And then the final one, option 3, membership club. I see this as the most promising, in San Francisco or Oakland. As it is not retail, never presented as anything other than a private party, it should get out from under any and all adult entertainment zoning and anti-strip club ordinances. Could even start with a borrowed facility.

So you would need the VIP Rooms, call them Cabanas, as they seem to at Venom in Tuscon. Say have 10 of them 8' x 10', for 800sqft.

Use sliding doors as they take up less space, but they can still have locks, though a staff key can still get in.

The locks in practice though are unnecessary. Any thing goes, even front room.

So then it needs a stage, seating areas, bathroom, entrance area, juice bar, DJ station. Maybe a boss's office too, and the dressing room.

Lets say an 8000sqft industrial building, can it be $5 a sq ft? We look for a shit building, so $40k per month rent.

So swinger's clubs charge different rates for men, women, and couples. Say we just charge everyone the same, the women are just like the men, members. Say charge everyone $100, plus a small one time membership fee.

Now I know that this will mean, some girls will be out their promising results to who ever pays their entrance charge. Oh well.

But other than drinks that is all house gets.

For the Cabana rooms, lets say we have 10 of them and assign each of our women one, and let her control it do its house keeping. So then we charge nothing for use of the room. So if a girl wants to hang out with someone in it all day, that is her business.

So only 10 girls per shift, or we need more cabanas.

So say each girl can do 10, and say she always gets that, by virtue of being follies style aggressive.

So for each shift 100 guys and 10 girls, at $100 a head, for $11,000 total.

So we try for 7 days a week and even a graveyard shift. But in practice lets say 13 shifts a week. So if it maxes out, over $130,000k per week.

So lets assume we follow the policy of the new management at Sights Newark NJ, no alcohol. Should get a better insurance and rent deal, and have less security problems. And it is only a pseudo hang out place, maybe a time limit unless you pay extra. Applies to the women too.

And after all, though it is a hang out place, most of the time it will just be until a girl they like starts climbing on them. So it is short hang outs.

Now girls can try to get what they want, we don't need to know about it.

But say they get $100 a pop, and no house cut or any other costs. If they get 10 per shift and they work a modest 200 shifts per year, that is $200k per year. That should be plenty. And they still get some stage and front room money.

And the house gets the door charge only, which will be $520,000 per 4 weeks.

It gets some juice bar money, one drink minimum, maybe a couple drinks to supply the girls. But no drink hustle.

So out of $520k, 40k$ rent.

How much for the non-dancer staff? Say to start off make the staff be all male as they are to be security too. So door man, DJ, juice bar tender, and maybe one more. 4x men. How much do they need to get per shift? $500?

So another $2k per shift cost.

13 shifts per week, so over $8k still per shift, $104k per week, $416k per 4 weeks, and need to pay the $40k rent.

I think it would work! Need more cabanas to allow flexibility in number of girls. And they can come and go as they please. No exit fee, but say they have to pay another $40 re-entrance fee.

No schedules either, as the women are just like the men, members.

Say 15x cabanas. But plan on a max of 10 girls at a time, nominal.

So just like what gets written about tj. The less aggressive girls jump onto your lap and wait until you DFK them and then they engage and start stick shifting. The aggressive girls don't wait for anything. Buy doing this they cut out the competition right off.

Though it is a hang out place, maybe there are some modest costs which come into play if you just want to sit there, and especially after you done a cabana session.

I think it would work. I think it is relatively LE proof and proofed against zoning and licensing problems and against other local ordinances. Always just a private party.

But just like the Power Exchange and Swingers Clubs have had legal problems, this still could.

Consider that the business is designed to be disposable. No concern about its Good Will, Name Recognition, or Blue Sky equity.

The $100 door charge keeps out people who just want to watch, window shop, or try for free groping.

Very hard to bust anyone except one of the women, and to do this a cop would have to be extremely complicit. No justification for doing this.

We have to scan id's and type on names for the membership records. Need to look up a membership number and make sure that the picture matches. But otherwise we don't release the list without a court order, and list for the men and the women are kept separate, and we will contest any such order request.

If it goes, someone else could then try something similar, but in a no alcohol retail biz.

Now let me clarify, I have mentioned many time about an organization I am building. This is not to be it. That will never have any money being exchanged, and our women will never be offered to anyone who is not at least a candidate for membership. And no one gets that until we really know them well. For our members I'll be happy to drive van loads of women around. One of our members can even have the girl off of my lap.

But no, for the general public, guys who have just paid a small one time fee and a cover charge, no. I'm not going to be involved in that. Just needed to clarify.

Okay, so we have lawyers here, we even have one who fancies himself as a 'Stripper Fucking Expert'.

What do people have to say?

SJG

Grahame Bond youtube.com

The mile long posts are baaaaaaaaccccckkkkk....

Maybe SJG is having another maniac episode?

Need also some checks on the till money, like say you pay the door man and get a paper ticket. You give it to the bar tender, and he tears it in have and puts one half in the lock box, and you keep the other.

Maybe like swinger's clubs where these staff people are otherwise well employed, and so they are expected to adhere to an honor code. They are a rotating crew.

When people come they are supposed to produce a membership card, and they have to match their pictures. And we separate the picture image from the rest of their id. So we just have name, number, and picture. The rest of the original id image is elsewhere. And we do not keep records of who was there when, just their original registration, to comply the need to say this is not retail.

And also then, the women are basically freelancers. But this is not that much different from strip clubs I have known. Those who cause problems are 86ed. We don't allow any who are causing ITC or OTC safety problems.

Overall, this should make everyone extremely happy, while combining the good privacy and intimacy of the best AMP sessions with the visuals and front room fraternizing of strip clubs.

I believe people will conduct themselves better when their identities are safely stored away somewhere, and where there is no alcohol.

SJG

The Formula:

Kept small to cut down costs, as it is for front room fraternizing and cabana sessions, but not intended for extended hanging out, just moderate hanging out.

Money is described above. But to summarize, men and women are both 'members', and they pay a one time membership fee, and a $100 cover charge. House gets little more than this and the juice bar.

Of course anyone can leave as they wish. Maybe a $40 re-entry fee.

Cover charge keeps window shoppers and free groping seekers out.

Membership Club, No Alcohol.

15x cabana rooms, assigned to the women. Plan on about 10x women max per shift.

No real limits front room or back room, like a swinger's club.

Very hard for LE to do anything about this, or prove that any lines are being crossed, unless they themselves become extremely complicit.

Zero house cut of anything the women might get, and no cost or time limits for using cabana rooms, as one is assigned to each woman. Maybe have one big room too, in case there are too many women.

In all other ways very similar to Swinger's Club, and no really way to outlaw these or require Adult Entertainment Zoning. Should be completely outside Oakland's strip club prohibition, as it is not a strip club, as it is not even retail.

Has stage, pole, juice bar, seating areas, though small.

Women tend to be extremely aggressive, like TJ or like Follies. They know what they want to make happen, so they just go for it. So anything goes front room or back room, just has to be by consent.

One each in San Francisco and Oakland. These should make good money, and see above analysis. But all which is really required is that they don't lose money.

Right now the most acclaimed and forward looking Swinger's Club is Club Kiss, and this may have a great deal of similarity.

SJG

Say 8000 to 10000sqft, cheapest industrial space we can find.

SJG

Oh my god, is anyone sorry they where here on this thread?

So, San Francisco real estate is insane. And maybe strip clubs did take a huge hit with the 2008 crash. And so maybe with that, and with landlords trying to squeeze out more money, maybe some of them would have gone under.

So is that how DV took over? So they pay the high rents, but they do it by destroying the front room fraternizing and making what amounts to the modern version of the clip joints of old.

They impose micro controls in order to keep you from engaging in unstructured front room fraternizing with your girl. They do this to make more money, and to insulate themselves from LE. Front room fraternizing is not illegal, but it creates the impression that the place must be a brothel. But without front room GFE, you never really know how it will go in the backroom. Front room GFE is the strongest indicator.

So DV isn't really taking the risks. Jim and Artie took the risks, back in their day. But DV is only in it for the money. Okay, so they keep these big places open, big compared to AMPs that is.

So, San Francisco has lots of great AMPs, and these must be able to pay the high rents. But they don't require Adult Entertainment Zoning.

But a Membership Club should not either.

So AMPs have good sized session rooms, and customer showers. They are actually kept cleaner, changing sheets and and always washing them with their mountains of white towels.

So what I propose will have smaller Cabana's, but it does also need the common area with the stage.

So is it bigger or smaller than an AMP? I would say about the same.

This and the lack of an Adult Entertainment zoning requirement are the key to cost containment.

Some AMPs are in big old funky buildings. Some have complex corridors and all. I remember one, real nice selections room. I wanted one girl, but she was tied up on the phone. So another girl jumped in to take her place. She got right in my face, and she did not disappoint. She led me into to some strange room, looked to be for storage. She spread a sheet out on the carpeted floor and followed that up with a pillow. Right behind the selections room.

We proceeded and it was awesome GFE-FS. Zero complaints.

But if they were dressed a bit sluttier, and with front room GFE auditions, that would get the best of what strip clubs offer too.

The shop was really not that small, separate lobby and selections room, and large sessions room. Lots of girls, and very busy, and the girls were not coy about it at all. They delivered full throttle.

If that AMP makes it rent wise, what I suggest will also make it rent wise. And because it is not adult entertainment and not retail, it is not really a strip club or massage, doesn't need massage licenses, and should not be getting heath dept checks ( done with no warrant ), though it can really give you the best of both, whatever you want.

SJG

Antifa amazon.com

Grahame Bond - Love Is the Law youtube.com

Only Needs Floor Space of an AMP!

So costs should be about the same.

Though still subject to less rules, regulations, and inspections. And harder for LE to justify the complexities of getting into.

DV is keeping big places open amidst high rents, but there are problems with the policies and practices being used to be able to do this.

I know this from the contrast with our underground Mexican Bar places, where the girls just do it their own way.

And I also remember pre-DV New Century!

SJG

Congratulations on paying hookers for sex, @SJG. That is a RickyBoy level non-accomplishment.

Lol!

^^^^ Its totally different when they are dolled up to stripper standards, and when there are front room GFE auditions.

SJG

AMP's and Strip Clubs each have ways in which they can be the best. Want to get the best of both.

SJG

So, membership club, no alcohol, should get around all adult entertainment zoning requirements, hours of operation requirements, and the Oakland strip club prohibition.

Inside, it runs much like a strip club, though you are kind of expected to do your stuff and then leave. Limited hang out, in between AMPs and Strip Clubs. $100 cover charge will tend to limit it to those who want to play.

Women pay the same high cover.

Everyone gets two tokens with that, for the juice drinks.

So we have lawyers here. Doing anything requires a lawyer. And this is a specialized area of law. It takes someone who knows not just what the words on paper say, but what DA's and Courts are willing to enforce.

We want one club each for San Francisco and Oakland. And this should be a great deal like Sights in Newark NJ.

SJG

Moriarty NM, Truck Stop with a Stripper Pole youtube.com

Lot Lizards youtube.com

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Steve Winwood, Eric Clapton - Can't Find My Way Home youtube.com

Steve Winwood - Dear Mr. Fantasy youtube.com

Steve Winwood - I'm a Man - Jools Holland Big Band youtube.com

Chicago - I'm A Man, version I like best youtube.com

TLDR As for Oakland, in the late 80s Market Street Cinema had a sister club in Jack London square for a VERY short time, High Friction Lap Dances in Audience, Porn, Features..... I think it lasted about 3 weeks before the city shut it down in a big way, my understanding was that most of Alameda county adapted very strict rules about strip clubs soon after, Constitutional or not. It would take VERY deep pockets to take this to court, as there hasn't been much there to my knowledge since.

Thanks for that info HGR.

tuscl.net

m.eastbayexpress.com

It's unconstitutional because they are imposing standards which don't apply anywhere else, except a strip club.

Earlier versions of these sorts of laws were overturned in the 60's and 70's. Melvin Belli and Jim and Artie Mitchell, and Supreme Court Chief Justice Rose Bird too. Otherwise we would never have had strip clubs.

Yes, though, it would take deep pockets, and it would take people willing to fight for civil rights, which most strip club operators do not care about, like the people running San Francisco today.

But I would think that Oakland has hooker bars. The 4 clubs it once had listed on TUSCL were probably little more than that anyway.

What I am talking about on this thread though would be a membership club, following the model of swingers clubs, and as these are operating more like private space strip clubs, as done in Club Sights, Newark, NJ.

This should get around every kind of law except the penal code. And in practice, very difficult to enforce many types of law in such an environment.

SJG

THinking more about this, better to drop the women's entrance fees, from $100 to say more like $20. Still need to have them paying, so that legally they are customers.

Then if they want to leave and then come back, another $20.

So say men get 4x drink tokens, more cost $5 each.

Women only pay $20, so they don't get any, have to get the guys to buy them their fruit juice drinks. Better.

So the women and also do the waitressing. That way no bar or bar tender.

So with the lower entrance cost for the women, you can have women who might not make much. Some strippers exceed $1k per day. But others, like in our bikini bars, are happy if they clear $150 per day. Others, like from Portland, have written about tough money there.

So we can get some older dancers and ones happy just for some money. They can spend more time on stage and in front room fraternizing, if there is not a big demand for Cabana sessions.

They can approach asking the guy if he wants a drink and if he wants to buy them one.

Cabanas, then a big common one with lots of sex furniture. And Swinger's Club style good places for sex in the front room to. Not everyone will do that, but the more who do, the more that helps loosen up everyone else.

Many guys will go for the young hotties and keep them busy. But in such environments, some will go for the others too.

SJG

Led Zeppelin - Stairway to Heaven (Live Earls Court 1975) youtube.com

No Quarter youtube.com

I'll say one thing about this, considering DV's 4x unbranded no alcohol SF clubs, can they really make them operate according to their business models? There had been for those exact 4 clubs, credit card fraud allegations. While of course I do not approve, I would also never be so stupid as to being a credit card.

If they management can't control that, can they control anything else, like eliminating front room GFE?

And then of course yelp, they have described some of these places as being full of ROB's. If so, then anything goes.

And as I see it, with New Century being so big, and Little Darlings being so black, very hard to control. They tend not to hire black girls in our 2 nude clubs. Maybe they think customers would not like them, or maybe they just assume that they would not follow the rules.

"This woman working at the door (on a Thursday nite) nastily yelled "Come here!" "Did you hear me? I SAID COME HERE!" I had absolutely NO intention to go inside..."

Now, these yelp people are idiots. But what this does all suggest is extremely aggressive girls and a club hungry for business, and so it could be that anything goes and that front room GFE might not be effectively prohibited. And that of course is what makes the back room awesome.

" Got my I.D. checked, payed and got some change from the bouncer. As I was getting change the girls were already looking through the curtain to see who's coming in and whatnot. Once I stepped foot inside I was already pulled away by a dancer within seconds of just stepping in. Didn't even get a chance to look or grab a drink. She took me to the back and kept on suggesting to pay her $100 for a full 20 session. I wasn't going to be rude and say no so I said I'll let you know in a little bit. But she wouldn't take a no. She kept insisting that I pay her and it'll all be worth it. She kept saying "just pay me $100 and I'll take care of you". "

Anyone knows that you don't let girls drag you into booths or back rooms. You smooth talk them, but your feet stay glued to the floor. With time, you'll eventually pick one and get her softened up. If you go for the first one, okay, but only after you've gotten her very softened up.

yelp.com

So if there is a silver lining, this is it, that even DV cannot really regulate these clubs.

SJG

Progressive Rock youtube.com

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