Women and Baby Mania

I shit at McD's a time or two

Most educated women today are neither marriage nor baby focused, choosing to either delay marriage & kids or choosing not to do either. It's environmental as much (and probably more) than biological IMO. I personally have never had any desire at all for either marriage or babies, thought I did wind up getting married,lol. No kids, tho. It's just not in my DNA.

"It's environmental as much (and probably more) than biological IMO. "

I agree with the above fully. But the fact that our society lies about it, causes no end of troubles, and the ones who suffer the most are the children themselves.

"Most educated women today are neither marriage nor baby focused"

If only the above were really true, or more broadly true. But I see that there is hope. Really it is just about honesty.

Thanks, SJG

The middle-class is the first group of people which is having children by choice, instead of it just being unavoidable.

Did the Native Americans even have a middle class or need to be middle class to get hold of Blue Cohosh?

listverse.com

There have always been methods of contraception. The ancient works pagan temples, even the development of living in cities, must have depended on it.

But still, how well were they known?

Notice that in the Bible, they don't ever talk about human miscarriage, they don't even talk about animal miscarriage.

This kind of information is considered evil, witchcraft.

We know about the Burning Times or gynocide.

en.wikipedia.org

We know about the burning of the Cathars in the south of France. Were they really burned just because they would sit around in a circle and recite the Lord's Prayer slowly over and over?

No, the issue was always that they had methods of fertility control, contraception and abortion.

And it was after the Cathar burning that they Church shifted from the looser Thomas Aquinas doctrine to the much more nutty Augustinian doctrine.

Yale's John Merriman, and how the French Birth Rate started to drop earlier than most other countries, and Bishops giving sermons about some unspeakable evil. youtube.com

De-Christianization, but Bishops saying, "No dark secrets". youtube.com

The issue was always control over fertility, and trying to prevent it, and not being honest about it.

SJG

Jacobs Ladder, 1990 youtube.com

youtube.com

On the other hand, the Christian sect of the Doukhobors were similarly treated in Russia for not being fodder in wars, which could be considered largely equivalent to preventing birth control with the aim of assembling larger armies:

en.wikipedia.org

@san_jose_guy aka psycho lying nut case “And for any children who grow into adulthood but do not accept the middle-class family, they get sent to psychotherapy, psychiatry, recovery groups, they get put on medication, and they get sent to the evangelical churches.”

stop blaming psychotherapy, psychiatry, medications, or your evangelical church for your own failure as a human being. just like your lying to, cheating on and stealing from your ex-wife were the reasons she left your psycho lying ass and got that restraining order. the fault belongs 100% to you.

en.wikipedia.org

Well that's interesting. But the Catholic Church seems to have a commitment to preventing child bearing from being a conscious choice which goes far beyond just the desire to have a large population.

It seems to connect to the hidden motive and truth behind religious celibacy, as well as the need to make sure that the Church controls the only escape route.

That the Cathars had contraception and abortion is now established.

As you showed us, that ancient, and even primitive people's, had it is established. But this does not mean that people in traditional societies knew of this. It was probably witch's stuff. It could be learned of, if a woman wanted. But it was tightly concealed.

But as a practical matter, people in traditional societies did not experience themselves as having any such choice. They were really tradition and norm bound.

So contraception, abortion, and homosexuality were prohibited, supposedly. The only exit from a compulsory life was the Church controlled option , religious celibacy.

Today, as the Church has lost that kind of control, religious vocations have tanked.

One insider gave me the estimate the the Jesuit Order is seventy percent ( 70% ) homosexual in orientation. Though most are not active.

And it was after the Cathar Martyrdom that Francis of Assisi started promoting the use of Manger Scenes.

All those Baby Jesus's they put out at Christmas time, the church feeds off of them, its all just about making more babies to crucify.

Most interesting book about you could say, "consciousness", 1984. amazon.com

SJG

Robin Trower youtube.com

hey san_jose_guy you stupid lying dickhead. how could you post on my thread about you raping women in their sleep if you have me on ignore? lying fucking troll

tuscl.net

gotta remember.... i was raised in the 1950's and 1960's. we young minds were soooo easily persuaded back then. even in southern cali. i was a follower. never thought out of the box until the last ten years. and now...... no way would i go back.

@san_jose_guy aka psycho lying nut case “And for any children who grow into adulthood but do not accept the middle-class family, they get sent to psychotherapy, psychiatry, recovery groups, they get put on medication, and they get sent to the evangelical churches.”

stop blaming psychotherapy, psychiatry, medications, or your evangelical church for your own failure as a human being. just like your lying to, cheating on and stealing from your ex-wife were the reasons she left your psycho lying ass and got that restraining order. the fault belongs 100% to you.

^^^^^^

Well, living in the US as middle-class, people always do have choice. Its just that most of the time they don't want to admit it.

So the middle-class "lives in Bad Faith".

en.wikipedia.org

"In order to ground itself, the self needs projects, which can be viewed as aspects of an individual’s fundamental project and motivated by a desire for "being" lying within the individual's consciousness. The source of this project is a spontaneous original choice that depends on the individual's freedom. However, self’s choice may lead to a project of self-deception such as bad faith, where one’s own real nature as for-itself is discarded to adopt that of the in-itself. Our only way to escape self-deception is authenticity, that is, choosing in a way which reveals the existence of the for-itself as both factual and transcendent. For Sartre, my proper exercise of freedom creates values that any other human being placed in my situation could experience, therefore each authentic project expresses a universal dimension in the singularity of a human life." iep.utm.edu

The people who really suffer for this Bad-Faith, are, in my view, the children.

SJG

Today, as the Church has lost that kind of control, religious vocations have tanked.

When I was in Quebec, a guy on a visiting from an evangelical college in the south said he had interviewed a priest there and asked him about the quiet revolution where the Catholic church lost its power as the leading political institution there. The priest said that he saw it as beneficial because now people who would get involved in the church were doing it for better reasons.

Well that's interesting. But the Catholic Church seems to have a commitment to preventing child bearing from being a conscious choice which goes far beyond just the desire to have a large population.

Tom Robbins' book "Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates" has an interesting take on this that would probably be interesting and of use to SCers. Anyway, I'm not convinced that the Catholic Church's motivation wasn't power through larger populations, though.

The few vocations that the Catholic Church now gets in the US are far more conservative. You could even call them reactionaries.

They want life to have only two choices, compulsory and autonomic breeding, and then the other one being that which they control, celibate vocations.

Its like someone said then the clergy child sex abuse matters surfaced. "If you are Catholic they will keep asking you why aren't you married. They only choice if you are homosexual is to become clergy."

And my point is that the Church has always known and intended this.

So they don't really like child free marriage. But what they really don't like is non-procreative sex outside of marriage, bohemianism, or lay homosexuality.

What they have generally tolerated is clergy homosexuality, pedophilia, and clergy patronizing prostitutes.

As I see it the main reason that religion has such a hard time with homosexuality is that if they allow it, then people will also call for loosening the rules on heterosexuality. That would completely destroy all of these religious groups. Unapproved forms of heterosexuality are far more threatening to them than homosexuality. And mostly it is like this for our entire society too.

SJG

Jefferson Airplane - Have You Seen The Saucers? ( must be where flying toasters started ) youtube.com

Good Shepherd ( Jorma singing? ) youtube.com

Yes, indeed, Jorma, en.wikipedia.org

Today ( Marty Balin singing of course ) youtube.com

san_jose_guy stop blaming Christianity for your failure as a human being. you were thrown out of your church because you molested those two girls. there needs to be repentance on the sinner's part in order to be forgiven and you are still the psycho rapist without remorse that you've always been. the fault and failure is all yours not Christianity

I think san_jose_guy has some strong points about the Catholic Church. The only problem is conflating the Catholic Church with Christianity.

The homosexuality issue is an interesting one, and I read a book that made the point that some true homosexuals are driven to the point of being suicidal while still valuing Christian principles. I have a hard time with the Pharisee reasoning as it applies to government in light of 1 Corinthians 5:12 biblehub.com "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?"

"conflating the Catholic Church with Christianity"

There are differences, but on the whole both are against liberating sexuality from procreation, essentially against religious sex. This is what the Hebrews were most afraid of, Temple Prostitution.

"some true homosexuals are driven to the point of being suicidal while still valuing Christian principles" This might have been Matthew Warren, youngest child of Rick and Kay Warren, Saddle Back Church. Shot himself in the head at age 27.

I think it should be better investigated. I feel it likely that his parents and their prayer warriors and the mental health system drove him to suicide. If this can be shown, I want his parents charged with murder 1.

Are you asking me if I am judging those in the church? Well I am responding to the situation. The injunction Jesus gave pertains more to people and their personal lives and motivations. And Christians always try to cite this to protect themselves.

I say we need to act to dissuade people from Christianity and to protect our society from it.

Alcohol, Drugs, Christianity, and Psychiatric Medication are some of the things which make our society fatalistic and crazy.

To Be Continued SJG