Money

I seem to spend my money like this:

1. Financial obligations (bills, savings & investments, lifestyle maint., ect.)

2. Entertainment. (This is any cash I have left over and what ever I decide to do for fun, be it gambling, strip clubs, concerts or whatever I spend what I need to to have a good time. When I have a lot of money I play hard. When cash is tight I ease up but I allways have fun. And I never go cheap. If I can't afford it I don't do it.

I trust strippers to be intelligent enough keep their business objectives in mind when they are at work and if they are too busy making money to talk to me I understand and they know that I understand so it's never a problem. But at the same time I understand that, sometimes being normal people, they also have objective other than making money.

For these reasons, I do not feel obligated to pay strippers for talking to me. As an analogy they do not charge each other to talk amongst themselves do they?

I've noticed that if you make friends with a stripper early enough on in her career she will often NEVER ask you for money or to buy dances from her although she will come around to visit when she is not visit. "Friends" is a relationship that some of them seem to desire. They also understand that it is not really compatible with one party paying for the "friendship".

Also, , it is my opinion that strippers are getting something out of their conversations with me to, so there is no need to further compensate them with cash. Likewise I don't feel guilty about going into SC with the explicit objectives of trying to PU or make friends with strippers, thus robbing them of their business oppurtunities as many here claim to worry about. If they become friends with/have sex with/or date me, then they will have benefited from that in a far greater proportion to whatever time they spent talking to me. I trust they are intelligent enough to know that equation, plug in the variables for themselves and see if it is a net positive expectation (in the probabilisitc sense) for them.

Finally, sometimes I notice that I sometimes get strippers into a "trance" state when they are talking to me. (They totally seem to forget they are work, are obvilious to what is going on around them including being called up on stage, etc...) In that case I will often remind that "well I know you're here to make money tonight, so..."

Just to expand on my previous remarks, a dancer who I don't especially like will never sit with me for 10 minutes or more, I will have gotten rid of her long before then. Usually when I go into a club I sit somewhere that makes it difficult for a girl to join me without my asking, typically at the bar. I like to look around til I find one who interests me from afar, then I go ask her to join me. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But in that situation I will always compensate her one way or another if she spends some time with me, even if it turns out that I don't espceially like her.

Chitown, I've been to clubs where the girls aren't allowed to ask, the customer has to do the asking. And in a lot of clubs the girls don't push private dances even when they're allowed to, again you almost always have to do the asking. I kinda like low-key places like that.

Rockie: I've never tried the cape club, probably won't unless I'm working near it someday. I don't really go to clubs as much as I go to see certain dancers. Your favorite club has about half a dozen that drive me wild and treat me very well. The place down the road only has two but they are both worth the drive!

I think that, because my professional time is compensated for directly by money, I have no trouble understanding that a dancer is compensated the same way. Therefore, if I keep a dancer at my table chatting for more than about 10-15 minutes, I do feel obliged to give her some money..not a huge amount, but $20 would be typical for a half an hour. Even if the dancer comes to my table on her own, I assume that she is doing so because she is scouting for business, not because she wants to talk to me the way that a woman at a "normal" bar or party would. Therefore, if a girl comes to talk to me (which is normally the case, since they are looking for business), I feel that after about 10-15 minutes, if I am not going to get a dance from her, or otherwise plan on compensating her for her time, the onus is on me to tell her that I "am just hanging out right now," etc., or something else to let her know that I am not interested in trading my time for her company. Of course, if she just stays at my table after that, she is on her own, having been fairly warned.

This reminds me of a thread I started a couple of months ago, after a dancer sat at my table, talked and talked, and never asked me if I wanted a dance. I finally broke down and did so. SHe said that IF THE CUSTOMER did not ask her for a dance after 5-10 minutes, she figured it wasn't going to happen. It was almost like a comedy routine, because I kept asking her to describe the best demographic for guys who get dances and spend money, and she kept describing me...but never did ask if I wanted a dance. SHe just felt that the customer should do the asking (by the way, she gave a dance that literally had me catching my breath for fifteen minutes after she was done. So you never can tell about the quiet ones....There was also a little intra-club rivalry that worked to my advantage...)

Maybe it's guys like me who put the P in PL. So be it.

FONDL, I guess your situation is unique to yourself and probably a number of other guys. I don't recall asking dancers to join me at my table. I don't usually have time because dancers just come to me. Since I never invited the dancers, I don't feel obligated to pay them for their time since it is their choice to stay or go. I do tend to shoo them away quickly if I know I definitely don't want any dances from them. To my surprise some dancers seem offended if I try to get rid of them too fast. I guess there is always someone who just wants to talk or feels like they have to go through a sales pitch before they are willing to leave. I often say now that I don't want any dances but you can stay and sit with me if you want to.

FONDL, I do understand a bit where you are coming from now though.

I only spend what I intend to going in. A dancer can only take my money once w/o decently entertaining me. If I'm well entertained (w/o extras) I buy regularly. If not, I move on. While I give to charities, some have the same wanna dance approach that many object to in the sc. I can handle the wanna dance approach in the sc, I've stopped paying to some charities who try to sell me 6 times in one year.
Yoda,
I thought for sure the Cape club would have its Yoda "been there - done that" certification. I'm also amazed that my favorite club hadn't lost its Yoda certification to the club 3 miles further south. Happy Holidays

Casualguy, what I meant was if I ask a dancer to join me and she does and spends time with me, I will always compensate her, either with a tip or by buying dancer drinks or private dances from her. That's what I meant when I said I feel obligated to pay her a decent wage for the time I've asked her to spend with me. But if a girl joins me without my asking and I don't especially care for her, I feel no such obligation. Anyone disagree?

In the spirit of the season I'll just say that was clever and defer rancorous debate to some other time and forum. Since my laptop battery is about dead, I'll see all y'all after festivus.

Speaking of google.... type in "miserable failure" and then click I'm Feeling Lucky.

Truer words were never spoken.

PS: Yoda, if you thought I was referring to your post about how to spend your money I was not. I was agreeing with the post above mine about disagreeing with FONDL stating you should feel obligated to pay strippers a decent wage. I feel obligated to pay strippers a mutually agreed upon price or the stated club dance price if I get a dance. I don't feel I should be obligated to pay anything extra or pay for wages.

As far as Greenpeace goes, I guess I just read too fast and went postal. If you want to read something funny, go to the google search engine using Internet Explorer and type in French victory, then click on I'm Feeling Lucky. :)

Speaking about golfers, some of them are real fanatics. Some will swing and throw clubs. Others will curse at you from all the way down the fairway over 200 yards if you happen to hit a really good one into their area near the green. Most golfers are more civilized than that though but you remember getting cursed at from over 200 yards away. I learned a lesson that day. Do not shout FORTH on the golf course if you think your golf ball might reach someone. Just be quiet and see if they say anything. If you messed up someone's golf shot, they will be pissed over that. ...and some people claim they play golf to relax.

I haven't played golf in quite a while and miss it. It is warming up though and is supposed to reach the 60's tomorrow or the next day if you can believe the forecast. My father was into golf as much as shadowcat or some others are into stripclubs. I remember as a little kid when it was extremely cold in the south (highs in the teens) he got me and my younger brother to put on two pairs of pants, gloves, jackets, sweaters, two pairs of socks to go play golf with him. I think no one else would. I just remember the ball bounced really good that day like it landed on concrete as it went down the fairway. I decided I didn't like playing golf when it was that cold because I could hardly move. I think I was only 12 or 13 or so but still remember my father wanting to play golf no matter what. I believe I enjoyed some of the danger element of playing golf. You never knew if your golf ball was going to hit someone or something and ricochet back at you or at something else. I remember I once hit all 5 pine trees along the edge of the fairway in a single shot and the golf ball popped out right in the middle of the fairway. This was when I wasn't that great at keeping aim early on.

There is a club on Cape Cod in Mass. that benefits from golf season. It's a small place that does OK as a local strip bar but when the springtime comes, and summer, the place is packed. I've never been there...I don't play golf.

If you're a true golf aficionado (which thankfully I'm not) there's no such thing as too cold. Just like the true stripper aficionado cares little about the decor of the club in which his fave dances. In fact the true golf nut prefers bad weather because it keeps the riff-raff (read women) away. Just like the true SC devotee, for much the same reason, prefers a dump. If the climate is important, whether golfer or strip club devotee, you're a fair-weather fan only.

Incidently I meant to add to my earlier post: I mainly support local charities because I want to know where my money goes. I think that if a lot of people knew how their donations to national organizations were being spent they'd buy the putter or go to the strip club instead.

I've used the same putter for the last 15 years. I guess that tells you where my money is going!

I'm also fairly good about supporting the charities of my coice, not only with money but by donating time and talents when possible, but I prefer to focus on a small number of things rather than spreading it around, and I find it very annoying the way some charities try to lay on the guilt. And I agree with Chitown's comments about the "do as I say not as I do" mentality of many do-gooders. I've frequently encountered that too.

I also tend to over-pay service people who do a good job for me because (1) it's a tough way to make a living, and (2) I believe that you ultimately get better service that way. Strippers included.

But getting back to the issue of personal spending habits, I do have one dilemma: do I spring for the new putter or do I head for the strip club? That has to be one of life's thoghest decisions. I guess it all depends on what I want to wrap my hands around ...

Interesting thread, interesting responses. As for the one who shall not be mentioned, I really don't care what his opinion is because it will likely change if he can disagree with someone else. I come fairly close to FONDL on this. It's mine, I earned it, I'll spend it in ways that make me happy. I also agree with Chitown that if one is fortunate one should give something of ones talents, time, or money to the community as a matter of principle. The causes you choose are up to you. As for ANWAR and all the rest, well every time someone says no war for oil I ask how about war for food or electricity? Considering that traditionally people have gone to war for everything from trade routes to the name of your particular god, oil sounds like as good a reason as any.

Sorry for the off-topic economic musing. I'll stick to the issue at hand:

Due to the happy and fortunate coincidence of practicing a relatively high income profession in an area with one of the lowest costs of living in the US, and having a frugal lifestyle, I have enough money that I can take five or six small and have a good time at a strip club once or twice a month, and not worry about my babies having milk. As I have said at various other places on this board, I truly believe that going to strip clubs has a net financial gain in my life, because it is one factor that allows a two-profession couple to stay married and continue to generate a healthy household income, and avoid the expenses of divorce court. It also provides me with some needed recreation to "recharge my batteries" for a return to the jurisprudential trenches. I do sometime wonder, however, if this prevents me from being as smart and savvy a stripclub consumer as I could be. I probably do overpay for dances, and even my ATF thinks that I overtip dancers. However, to me, counting out the lap dance fee in quarters, in an effort to make sure I wasn't leaving one on the table, would take away some of the pleasure of the experience. I see strip club patronage as a luxury good, and that's how I handle the experience. I know I spend more money than I have to, and I hope that is not to the disadvantage of anyone else. The best thing I can say in my defense is that I really don't go to sc's often enough to distort the market in any signficant way.

I don't have the Greenpeace v. Stripclub dilemma. My wife and I are very aggressive and intentional about giving at least 10% of our gross income to various causes.
Last week we had our annual sit-down with W-2s and financial statements to make sure we have kept pace for the current year. I do, however, agree with the Greenpeace comments above. Frequently, I'll be at a meeting or in a cafe in our little town, and someone will start to give the liberal view on ANWAR. I can usually shut them down just by asking how they got to the place where we are meeting. 90% of the time, the person will have driven there, and it will be someone who lives within a mile or two of our meeting place. I point out to them that if they are not willing to give up the luxury of driving short distances, they shouldn't begrudge efforts to get them gas to allow them to continue this luxury.

Casualguy: The greenpeace thing was a joke.

Personally, I never said I spend money in strip clubs because dancers deserve it. I do it because I deserve it.
I don't look at it any differently than a guy who plays golf, gambles, sails, goes fishing or whatever other hobby you can think of. Yes, the girls work hard and spending money in a SC certainly benefits them (it is their job and all) but I don't go in their to support them, I go to have a good time.

I don't see anyone here telling you how much you should spend on strippers.

I find myself disagreeing with Yoda and FONDL on this thread. First of all, if someone saves money by not spending it on strip clubs, do not send it to Greenpeace. I believe spending it on lobbying money to support drilling for oil in Alaska would be a far better cause. This would increase national security rather than diverting money from the US to some third world dictator because we feel a need to only buy foreign oil. Supporting Greenpeace sounds stupid to me. I doubt that many of the people in the US would really care if there was an oil rig in the middle of the wilderness (that 99% won't ever see in person) if it was going to save them a few dollars a gallon at the pump one day.

As far as consumers spending top dollar in a strip club because the dancers deserve it I'll disagree as well. I believe the consumers deserve to keep their hard earned money. Maybe someone didn't work very hard for their money and feel like giving more of it away. That is their choice and I do not feel like they should be telling everyone else that they should be spending top dollar. I myself am already spending top dollar for lap dances at $10 to $15 per dance. I refuse to spend anything higher than that except in very unusual circumstances and only at one club that I occasionally visit. I think I may have spent more than that once about 2 or 3 YEARS ago. Maybe 10 years ago I spent more than that because the market in my area didn't offer anything lower and I was pretty carefree at that time. Saving money provides financial security for a rainy day and provides a source of income when we younger people expect to eventually retire 30 or so years from now. If I was a multi-millionaire, I might be carefree and retired already but since I'm not...

FONDL: I thought this thread was about each of us spending own money the way we choose. That's certainly the spirit in which I chimed in. It seems only fair to me that how other people choose to spend, or not spend, their own money should be THEIR business. So, sorry, I can't say I share the sentiments in your latest post.

I must say that I'm surprised by the responses here. I was under the impression that I was at one end of the spectrum on this, and that the asshole who I never read was at the other end, and the rest of you were somewhere in between.

Many years ago I had an elderly neighbor who lived with his wife about a block away in a small old rundown house. Even though they owned a lot of land adjacent to their house which was becoming fairly valuable, we all assumed that they were fairly poor. When he died a few years later, he left an estate of more than $10 million, and his wife was as surprised as everyone else. She promptly built a large and beautiful house on the other end of their property. And shortly after moving in she died too. I think that's really sad, he deprived her all their lives because he was cheap and a hoarder. I think that hoarders are very sick people.

Money is totally useless until it's spent. If you don't want to spend it on yourself or those close to you, give it away. I don't believe in being a spendthrift, but to deny yourself and those around you, including the strippers you hang out with, is sick. If you're going to spend time with girls who are working, you should feel obligated to pay them a decent wage. If you don't you're cheating them, which makes you an asshole in my book. I think most of us here treat the ladies fairly.

I was an economics major in college, and among the more interesting concepts covered in my classes were "consumer surplus" and "producer surplus." These are ways of measuring the difference between what people would willing pay for goods/accept for goods, and the amount that they actually get. For example, perhaps Acme Property & Casualty Company would be willing to pay Chitownlawyer $150/hr to defend its insureds in rear-end accidents, but Chitownlawyer, because of imperfections in the market, doesn't know this, and only charges $125/hr. In that case, Acme P & C has a consumer surplus of $25/hr. On the other hand, if Chitownlawyer would willingly take $100/hr for the same work, but, because of inperfect knowledge, they pay him $125/hr, then Chitown's producer surplus is $25/hr.

In a market with perfect knowledge, there are neither producer nor consumer surpluses...all consumers are paying their "top dollar" for what they buy, and all producers are at the "bottom line" for what they sell.

THis is all a way of getting to my main question, which is....what are the consumer and producer surpluses in the sc market? At Favorite Club, laps are $10 a piece, and 1/2 hour VIPs are $50. I suspect that there is very little "producer surplus" here, because I doubt that many sellers of lap dances would go much lower than these prices. In fact, I have observed first hand how the market corrects itself under these circumstances, because a certain high demand dancer (personally known to some posters on this board) tells customers on the way to VIP that they will tip her another $X...in other words, the customer has to go above the posted "market price" to get to this particular dancer's bottom line. On the other hand, there is considerable consumer surplus, since most lap dance consumers (PLs) would pay more than these prices.

Last night I went to a club where dancers are $40.00. I suspect that this reflects little consumer surplus, since few customers will pay more than this amount...$40 is probably close to most customers' "top line." On the other hand, I am sure that some dancers will do the same dance for less, if given no other alternative. In fact, I know this is true, because some dancers will discount multiple dances.

If only I had known about strip clubs when doing my bachelor's thesis on labor market economics. It would have been a much more interesting paper, and I would have done a hell of a lot more original research.

Well said FONDL....I totally agree.

FONDL: It looks like your preaching to the choir here! It would be interesting what people outside of this board would think of where us TUSCL folks spend some (or in some cases most) of our money. I doubt strip clubs will ever show up on a pole of top 10 most popular leisuretime activities...

SC: ometimes I get pissed at myself for not knowing when to walk away from a futile argument. I can dissagree with any other poster on this board and all it generates are some spirited debates. With Davids it always ends in insults being hurled. I should just ignore him but a davids post is like a train wreck for me...I just have to look...I've gotta work on that in 2006....

FONDL,

On this, we are not different. Well said!

Davids, why we differ:

While you seem to go to strip clubs and attempt to gain the respect of the dancers, I go for solely for entertainment. After dealing with the stress of work and life in general, I sometimes need to blow off a little steam and this is one of my perferred methods. Whether or not the dancers respect me, couldn't matter to me in the least as long as they provide me with the services I've paid for. You need to lighten up a little bit and enjoy the SC scene for what it is because it sounds to me like you must have a terrible time each time you visit. Especially trying so hard to gain strippers respect. I'm still trying to figure out why you and RL even go to strip clubs when you seem to hold the whole environment in such contempt. So I need to ask, why do you waste your time there?

Davids:
A: Your full of crap
B: Why don't you stop going to clubs and send all of the money you save to Greenpeace or something.

A couple problems with the money to burn argument:

a) strippers are less respectful of those regularly spending mone. They think such customers are pathetic losers
b) if you really have that much money to burn and don't care about, there are plenty of good charities in the world where your money is going to do alot better than giving it to strippers who will probably just waste it on drugs and frivilous shopping.

As long as it is indeed my "fuck you money", I'm 100% with you guys. I'll spend it whatever way I please. If anything, I'll take an extra measure of enjoyment in spending it on things other people would find foolish. To be a skinflint about it would spoil all the fun.

That being said, with strippers, I have learned that the very fact that money is changing hands inevitably affects the experience, and there's always a point at which inordinate spending begins to result in less fun. There's no simple answer to where that point is. It's a moving target that's different for everybody. While I don't think about it much while I'm having my fun, to just dismiss its presence and say la-di-da, it's all good, is as warped as being boorishly cheap.

FONDL: Even though I'm still supporting three generations I still feel pretty much the same as you do about how I spend my money. My recreational spending is all about what makes me happy. Like you, I don't care what other people think about who or what I spend on. My only rule is to make sure that my family is provided for before I indulge in any of my prefered forms of relaxation.

I had the day off and would have golfed (it's in the 40's).... but there's still 3 inches of snow on the ground from the last storm.