Why Top Strip Clubs Have Gone Downhill -- and why it will continue

70 comments

• san_jose_guy

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  7 years ago

  Best is if girls can come and go as they please. This makes everyone very happy. Club just needs to put extra girls on the roster to compensate. :) SJG
• clubdude

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  7 years ago

  Most cam girls I see are foreign, and the number rating system will always be objective. Your 1 ans 3 points make sense to me, though.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  ^ clubdude, this depends on the webcam site. [view link] will have foreign girls Myfreecams have a large american girl base Also, it depends on where you are in the world. If you live outside of the USA, many sites like Streamate, will show you foreigners first.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  Strip Clubs can never compare. The top webcam girls on MFC make WAY more than any top stripper in any city. On Myfreecams, just to make the top 20, girls are profiting (their cut) in a MINIMUM of 30,000 usd per month. The #1 girl will bring in over 100,000 in just a month, with the number 2 girl not being too far behind. Lets just assume the girl isn't the "top" girl. Just to make the top 100, she needs to bring in (her cut) approx 9,000 per month. That's better money than many clubs. No contact. No scheduling. No fees. Strip clubs will continue to die. Nothing can be done about that.
• nemesisk7

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  7 years ago

  Mexico strip clubs are not dying and will never die unlike the US
• skibum609

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  7 years ago

  Strip clubbers are social animals. Guys jacking off on webcam are all anti-social whack jobs waiting for their Dylan Roof moment. The simple fact is that social activities like strip clubbing, golf, fine dining have all taken a hit as technology allows us to crawl into a fake cocoon with pretend social activities.......like this place. The idea a webcam girl makes 100,000 a month is beyond fucking stupid. What really drove a lot of hot women away is....you guys. That's right the extras guys. When Providence clubs were high contact you saw 8 - 10's. Now t hat t hey are extras clubs you see 5- 7's, with a few 8-10's. A nine doing a solid lap dance cannot compete with a 6 swallowing your load. They leave and figure out that without the playstation b/f, the drugs, the alcohol, the pissing away ill-gotten money that they can net as much working a normal job.
• Dolfan

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  7 years ago

  Your club would go under in 3 months. Sky high cover charges, with girls who come/go as they please? You think guys are gonna come back after they've paid a $75 cover only to find no hot girls inside? You think girls are gonna come in any time other than when they know it'll be busy? You might as well only open the doors from 11-3 on Fri & Sat, cause you'll be operating at a loss every other time. Not to mention you'll only have around 24hrs worth of business all month to cover your lease/mortgage. There are much less drastic measures one can take to level the playing field. If managers treated strippers with a little respect, I'm sure it would go a long way. Create a more hospitable work environment by providing some dressing room amenities. Instead of cutting out tip-outs/house fee's completely, design them in such a way as to incentivize girls to come to the less attractive shifts (eg, no shift fee or maybe even a small shift payment for coming in before noon / 8pm.) Also, take another look at camming. Sure, the top girls on the top sites make a lot of money, but average girls don't make that much. There's also the fact that a LOT of girls don't want to have naked photos/video's of them all over the internet, which is what camming does.
• bvino

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  7 years ago

  I agree with Dolfan. Many of the girls I talk with are fairly discrete about what they do and would out themselves online. I also agree that the tip out system probably drives many girls out of the clubs. I worked in bars for years and those that used "tipping out" had a much higher turnover and staffing issuers.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  "The idea a webcam girl makes 100,000 a month is beyond fucking stupid" It's a fact. The number one girl on Myfreecams will reach that number in one single month. Top girls are making over 250,000 in a year. Do your research. Getting that number one spot is very difficult for the models, and no girl gets number 1 month after month. Many girls do prefer dancing to keep anonymity. But for the girls who don't care, who are attractive, and have a decent personality... caming is the way to go income wise. It's not difficult for hardworking girls to make 5000-10000 per month.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  Strip Clubs should return to the model back in the 80's if they want to improve. In the early 80s, girls were paid hourly to work. There was also very little contact, if any. By the mid 80s the popularity of strip clubs continued to grow. Girls were so excited to work the good shifts, that they were willing to work said shifts for free. By the 90s, strip clubs began introducing VIP rooms and contact began to increase. The money was so good, that the girls were willing to pay to be there on the good shifts. If clubs could revert to the days when girls either A) paid to work or B) worked for free things would change. Also, lapdances have been hovering around 10 and 20 dollars a lapdance for decades. The price would need to keep up with todays inflation. (something strip club goers don't want, price increases)
• Bananafish

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  7 years ago

  "Your club would go under in 3 months. Sky high cover charges, with girls who come/go as they please? You think guys are gonna come back after they've paid a $75 cover only to find no hot girls inside?" Disagree completely. My last point was this model is working extremely well for the 2 clubs in NYC doing this. Covers are $40 and $50 at these spots, not $75. I never said $75 - in fact I don't know what the break-even cover would be if a club outside of NYC got rid of tip outs. Lido Room is ranked #2 in Dancers and #10 overall on TUSCL. If not for its no-review policy, SVT would be ranked #1 in Dancers on TUSCL easily. So it's working.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  So it's working. ^ agreed
• GoVikings

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  7 years ago

  interesting and informative article. i never knew that some web-cam girls made THAT much money. that's somewhat surprising to me. and the reason it surprises me a bit is because the customer of a web-cam girl (no matter how hot she is) has no physical contact with her. but i guess PL's are different and some of them find web cam girls satisfying. it doesn't do much for me because there's no physical contact--no real flesh
• twentyfive

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  7 years ago

  @MotherRussia do you work for a camming biz or own one your numbers are crazy except under the rarest of circumstances, yes it is possible but it is totally unrealistic to me you sound like your shilling for a cam site sorry but I don't believe you.
• Boone

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  7 years ago

  I agree that camming has made a huge difference. Nonetheless, there are still really good stripclubs. The movement of Cuban girls into Houston has made it the best in at least 30 years.
• Bananafish

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  7 years ago

  skibum609: "What really drove a lot of hot women away is....you guys. That's right the extras guys." I disagree. Detroit has been extras-central for 10 years now but the dancer quality has declined only in RECENT years, coinciding with the growth of cam sites. Houston cracked down on extras in the last couple of years but dancer quality has NOT improved. If you were right we'd be seeing better quality in Houston but we're not. I strongly believe webcamming has stolen top talent.
• Papi_Chulo

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  7 years ago

  Yeap - good ole technology - similar to Uber taking cabs out of business (for the most-part) - the internet has disrupted many an industry and strip-clubs also - I had been kina thinking about this and wondering if it us that have just gotten used to SCing and thus is harder for us to get impressed. I was thinking that it might have to do more w/ sugar-daddy sites and girls promoting themselves on Instagram; but camming is probably the biggest culprit and the one closest to stripping.
• Papi_Chulo

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  7 years ago

  And a big part of the problem is probably many clubs being ran by shady douches whom treat the dancers unfairly and bleed them dry (freaking mafia style) - SCs come across as being too greedy which may be their downfall. A small dive I go-to charges the girls up to $55 house-fee on weekend nights - dances are $10 and then the club takes an additional $3 out of every dance - and this club is a small dive with usually a dozen custies on an avg night at any one time and maybe 2 dozen on weekend eves - and many dudes just sit and drink and don't buy dances. To me good business is win/win - in the case of the dive above I would make the house-fee $25 and then use the $3 out of every dance to total the $55 house fee - and anything after that the girls keeps - that way she gets charged a higher fee (within reason) as she able to sell more dances but doesn't lose out big-time if the club is dead or full of non-spenders. In the example of the dive I gave, w/ a $55 house-fee and $3 out of every dance - if she's lucky enough to sale 20 dances that's $200 - take away the $55 house fee and the $3 out of every dance and she's left w/ $85, less than 50% of her earnings - and these days this dive is dying w/ few custies and few dancers - dancers don't wanna come-in b/c of the high fees then custies don't come b/c no dancers and a vicious cycle ensues. I wonder what kind of cut the cam sites take from the girls.
• nemesisk7

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  7 years ago

  the american cam girls are ugly , the best looking cam girls are Russians eastern european romanian bulgaria
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  @twentyfive Facts are shilling all of a sudden? Just because you can't wrap your mind around a girl making that much, doesn't mean it's not true. Top customers know the fact, it's common knowledge. And to ease your mind, no, I don't work or promote for them. In fact, they don't even have an affiliate program. So there goes your argument. Here's a few sources. [view link] [view link] [view link] [view link] The models only section of the amber cutie forum has a running tally of how much it takes to rank. You'll need to access that section by being a model, or knowing how to get around their security. Not all girls make this much, obviously. It's good to keep in mind that top cam girls make so. much. more. than top strippers.
• larryfisherman

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  7 years ago

  I do agree that camming is one of the reasons the dancer quality at the strip clubs has gone down.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  @Papi_Chulo "I wonder what kind of cut the cam sites take from the girls." It depends on the webcam site. [view link] girls keep 35% [view link] 50% [view link] 50% [view link] is a tiered system 30-60% Flirt4Free 35% etc.. Girl will make less than the standard cut if they accidentally sign up for a "studio". Studio pimps use their affiliated website (3rd party) to recruit girls and make money off of them. In these instances, instead of making 35% on Streamate, the girl will make 30% on [view link]
• Papi_Chulo

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  7 years ago

  ^ damn - cam-girls keep at most 50%? - then that's as bad or worse than the SC take - at least in a SC normally there is a limit to the fee and everything beyond that is for the girl to keep - but w/ a cam-site no matter how much you sale you always get 50%+ taken out - way more than I expected.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  It is a lot, I agree Papi It makes sense that cam sites can get away with such a huge cut. Their traffic can potentially be anyone with an internet connection. Whereas a strip club is vastly limited on their location, weather, time of year and other circumstances. Some cam girls are "independent". They prefer to take their customers from social media to Skype. This way they can keep a larger piece of the pie. 99% do not take paypal as a payment method, sadly. It's against their ToS and personal information can easily be found. This can be a good way to get a cheaper show. Popular girls generally never Skype, just something to keep in mind.
• Bananafish

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  7 years ago

  "damn - cam-girls keep at most 50%? - then that's as bad or worse than the SC take" No, the percentages he quoted are the wrong way of thinking about it even though that math is right. It's hard to explain but the tokens are worth more to the guys than the girls. It costs more to buy one than to cash one in. What's important is that from the camgirl's perspective there is no "taking" being done. Nothing is being "taken" from their perspective. There is no payout at all from their point of view. In their mind they keep what they earn. This is very important psychologically for their workplace happiness, especially compared to strip clubs, even if the the exchange-rate economics are mathematically what that guy posted.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  @bananafish Generally speaking, most websites award members "tokens" or "credits" the more money they spend. The percentages I quoted are the simple, basic forms! This does not include reward systems the site has in place. If you look at Streamate, some girls charge 6.99 per minute for example. The girl knows the are charging 6.99 per minute. They also know they are only getting 35% of that. So sorry banana, but you are wrong there. From the cam girl perceptive, there IS "taking" being done. If you look at myfreecams, 1000 tokens bought at a the largest package is .08 cents per token. The girls know that 1000 tokens cost the member under 100 us dollars. When they recieve that tip of 1000 tokens, they are only getting 50 us dollars. The easiest way to calculate what a girl is getting as a tip; take 1000, drop the last number "0" then divide it in half. "taking" is being done "What's important is that from the camgirl's perspective there is no "taking" being done" Wrong wrong wrong. They see the taking being done! My point above proves this.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  Also, on chaturbate and myfreecams, the girls see the total amount of tokens they have received. From there, they can mentally divide it by 50% to know what their income is. Or they can see plainly what their income is because the site does the math for them. They see both. They see the taking. They don't always see the customer discounts (from larger package purchases and site reward systems)
• Papi_Chulo

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  7 years ago

  The way I see it is that SCs take the $$$ upfront whether dancers make anything or not - whereas cam-sites take $$$ only if the girl makes $$$ but they take $$$ every time the girl makes $$$. To me I think it's the convenience and not having deal w/ anyone (managers; grabby/needy PLs, other dancers) that I assume appeals most to cam-girls.
• nemesisk7

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  7 years ago

  Looks like nothing is great in the USA anymore not even strip clubs
• twentyfive

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  7 years ago

  @MotherRussia none of the sources you have mentioned would fit my criteria for due diligence, and if it was so easy why would any of the strippers working in strip clubs, not be doing the same, sorry but I still feel that these numbers are way overstated, although I'm sure that there may be a very small number of girls, that might make a lot of money, I sincerely doubt that the facts are as simple as you are presenting to us. As far as top cam girls making more than top of the line strippers that may be true but as we know most strippers don't manage their money well due to myriad of reasons camming might be a safer alternative but I don't know enough about it to really have an informed opinion.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  @twentyfive No one said making large amounts of money as a cam girl "was easy". Those top girls are putting in long hours every single day. Posters above agree that young women still want to keep their identity a secret, and camming is on the internet forever. That is one of the main reasons girls don't want to risk it. You must also realize that many strippers still don't know camming is a thing. And of the girls who do know about camming, even less know about the high earning potential it has. Just like you can't accept the high earning potential, even with several sources stated. Those sources above come straight from the horses mouth, too. Research for yourself. Also, if those sources don't "meet your criteria for due diligence" then the original post is chalk full of not "meeting your criteria". But that's another argument altogether. The token glitch on myfreecams happened. Fact. That is the only reason why people know how much girls are making. Pumpkinspice, one of their top models was even tweeting "why is my income out for the world to see?" OlivaNaked, another (retired) top model had a radio show (look it up on youtube) and she states that the numbers are true. The list of top 100 girls confirming their numbers on social media is astounding. I'm no conspiracy theorist, and I don't see 20, 50, or 100 girls all coming together "in harmony" to make up fake numbers. You have the right to believe it or not, but before you go around saying "that's not true!" perhaps you should prove it's not with your own "due diligence". Sorry to say, but your personal "common sense" doesn't fit my due diligence either.
• FTS

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  7 years ago

  The problem is that there are millions of guys who are willing to spend hundreds of dollars to watch a stream on his computer of a girl masturbating or getting fucked by her boyfriend (or whatever happens on camera). As long as there is a demand, there will be an entrepreneur there to rake in the dough. So, the solution is two-fold: reduce the demand, and make stripping a more attractive option for the girls.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  Models [view link] [view link] [view link] [view link] Members [view link] [view link] [view link] Top model's reddit [view link] More sources. I don't have all day to dig through twitter post after post from October 24th 2015 when the token glitch was revealed. Really though @twentyfive all these people came together under a tin foil hat and created this conspiracy. The token amount was revealed, probably as a PR move on mfc's standpoint.
• twentyfive

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  7 years ago

  Never said I thought it was a conspiracy- just don't know enough about it to really have much of an opinion either way, if you enjoy it go for it, me personally if I can't touch it, smell it, or taste it it doesn't appeal to me.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  ^^^ your quote to me "@MotherRussia do you work for a camming biz or own one your numbers are crazy except under the rarest of circumstances, yes it is possible but it is totally unrealistic to me you sound like your shilling for a cam site sorry but I don't believe you." You said it was possible, but not realistic. I was proving to you in my posts above that it IS a face and IS realistic. Top cam girls make more than top strippers. Which, to back up the OP, may very well be *one* of the reasons strip clubs are going downhill. This was never an argument for whether or not "I enjoy it [webcam sites]" I'm actually with you on this one. I would rather "touch, smell and taste" instead of looking at a screen. The facts stand. Webcaming is increasingly more popular, and far more lucrative for top notch girls than stripping.
• larryfisherman

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  7 years ago

  @MotherRussia- don't mind twentyfive, he just likes to argue with everyone.
• san_jose_guy

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  7 years ago

  Camming? I have to admit that I had never thought about it as draining girls away from strip clubs before. But maybe so. Where I live the strip clubs are very soft core, no touching at all, and strictly enforced. But maybe because so many strip clubs are high mileage now, lots of girls are going for camming instead? Viet Coffee shops are not strip clubs, or anything like a strip club. But we have had Coffee Girls who have given interviews to print media and said that they were doing camming too. Myself, I have never paid for a camming session, and at this point in my life I don't see how I ever would. Decades and decades ago I paid for about 3x phone sex sessions. But I would not do this again. I'm only interested in f2f interactions, even if they are just looking and talking, like at our local clubs. At least there, the possibility of seeing the girl outside is quite likely. So if camming is drawing girls away, then there must be a demand for camming, people willing to pay money. And from what I hear, it is not cheap. So who would go for camming instead of a Strip Club or an AMP? Is it guys with infirmities or disabilities? Or is it guys who want to keep it bounded, not to end up seeing the girl outside, guys who want to keep it hidden from an SO? We understand why girls for for Camming instead of a Strip Club, but why are guys willing to pay money for Camming? Is Camming taking the place of the old style behind glass shows? The girls really give good pink displays and toy shows there. S.F. Lusty Lady, no more [view link] I had read direct dancer interviews and they said that some of the guys keep themselves hidden, like by having the lights low. Is this the idea behind camming? SJG NINE INCH NAILS - "CLOSER" [view link]
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  Drew Carey is a famous example for that question. He has so much money, so much fame, can easily go to clubs... yet he was a huge supporter for NikkiSkylar on mfc. They ended up dating and living together. Maybe it's just the entertainment? Like watching tv vs playing video games... im at a loss for this one. [view link] [view link]
• twentyfive

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  7 years ago

  Really little fishstick i made an ad hominem attack on you you have been a jackass from the very beginning of your troll carreer.
• topmandd

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  7 years ago

  Let's be honest - something has to change. And sadly what appears to be most is that the lawyers for the public are more prepared than the lawyers for the clubs. WAY too many regulations are being put in place every time we turn around. Take the Latex laws. or in some places they have to wear boy shorts to cover behind. Cam isn't bad, but I'll be honest - the one thing i enjoy is contact. What i'm tired of in ANY establishment - is paying $10 for a mixed drink when i can buy the whole bottle for that price. Once again - like everything else - greed kills. Owners just want to keep sticking it left and right - i know of one ATF who was tired of the BS at one place so went to another, now my drinks cost a bit more and my time with her more as well, but I'll follow for now if i can stay going there. Let's be honest - time to drop all the crap and just make the darn stuff legal, and put them out in a restricted street somewhere and a zoning restriction that says places can't build next to THEM instead of the other way around.
• malort

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  7 years ago

  Girls jumping ship to go camming is also more attractive as guys' spending money deteriorates in this economic climate. I go to clubs in upstate NY--it is a depressing wasteland up here and the people who have the money are surely not spending it at clubs. You go into a place in Syracuse, NY and they want $250/half hour or $500/hour to get a suite with a girl? Fucking forget it. Girls outnumber custies every time I go somewhere now, and those guys who are there probably have maximum $50 in their pockets. The girls would be crazy not to seek something better.
• LecherousMonk

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  7 years ago

  @malort, my fav local club is also $250 / half hour. I couldn't understand how some of these guys in other cities could have it so much better, but perhaps you have hit on something with your economic explanation.
• s88

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  7 years ago

  Lido house fee is $100/night. Customer cover is $20 or $40 depending on entry time. Without a house fee/tip out/whatever you call it, strippers will sit on their phones the whole night unless they hear a helicopter landing on the roof of the SC dropping off a customer. Very low house fees can mean many strippers show up, they have nothing else to do, theyd be on FB at home if not in the SC. But with very low house fees, they will be very picky about interacting with customers, because they dont have any expenses to cover. SVT and Lido are NOT open every day of the week. Instead of mandatory shifts, LDR and SVT just stay CLOSED on dead days. Normal SCs are always open for reputation reasons. LDR and SVT use a psuedo-RSVP system. Normal SCs are like Walmart, always open except for weather emergencies. If normal SCs started to be open only Thu-Sat, their reputation would be killed and their customers would never come back. You come to a SC, door closed, you go somewhere else, and never come back. Normal SCs must subsidize dead days to keep their reputation for busy days. The lapdance parties (SVT/LDR) dont, because they aren't open every day, and they are never in the same place 2 days in a row. Without checking the schedule, its impossible to goto a lapdance party. @Dolfan 2 of my reg SCs have sliding house fees based on entry time. One example, $10 at opening. $120 if you arrive after the state's last call (which means a dancer worked at another SC that night then came to mine).
• skibum609

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  7 years ago

  Webcam girls don't make anywhere near the money claimed here. In 34 years as a divorce lawyer I have seen about 20,000 financial statements and have a pretty damn good idea what people in all fields make. Having represented a number of dancers and other sex workers, t he idea they are raking in the dollars is beyond fucking stupid. On-line reasarch? Cite your sources for this idiotic claim.
• MotherRussia

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  7 years ago

  @skibum Your 34 years of experience doesn't matter. Top camgirls making those figures are a very new thing, just within the past couple years. Ever represent a myfreecams model? No? Then stay in denial. For someone like you, the only proof you would accept are paystubs. Unfortunately I cannot go to Myfreecams headquarters and ask for model income release forums. I can however connect the dots, see my links above.
• lopaw

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  7 years ago

  Personally I get nothing out of watching a cam. But to each their own. I can totally understand a dancer's attraction to camming - it's a lazy dancer's wet dream.
• Darkblue999

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  7 years ago

  When you watch a cam girl, there is no contact to body.Where is that feeling. It's just like masturbation..Stripclubs are for lap dances. All strip clubs need to follow Delilahs strategy. At Delilahs dancers pay certain fee to club.I guess it's $85 depending on the shift. All the money from couch room lap dances goes to dancers.If it's $20 per song dancer will keep it..Nothing goes to the club.That's why it's crowded at night time,super crowded on Fridays and Saturday nights. They have all kind of girls. Club risque on Delaware allow dancers to come at any [view link] restrictions.
• serrano

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  7 years ago

  So site like myfreecams, I just tried a few minutes. Interesting concept. So it is free to watch the naked girl, and she will kiss the screen at your funny comment or put her fingers somewhere if you ask? To her no risk of your germs or bad breath or your LDK mess? Benefit for the man: you only tip when you wish? All looking is free? It ideal for the younger American generation that grew up with phone and computer screen, and now with bad jobs that pay little income. Sound like watching cam girl is best option to access attention of pretty girl for most young American men. Strip club too expensive likely. But overall, experience of beautiful young girl in person is best. Unfortunately it is now harder to find beautiful young girl in top club now.
• Jascoi

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  7 years ago

  I have been amazed watching some of the scam girls rake in tips that are just like in a real strip club totally absurd concept of my mind... to tip and image instead of a real girl right in front of you that you might be able to have a chance if she allows it to touch her
• Jascoi

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  7 years ago

  now to edit... cam girls to tip an image (if she allows it)
• san_jose_guy

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  7 years ago

  Decades ago I did about 4 phone sex sessions, charged to my credit card. I had found a girl I got along with and we talked quite a bit. She claimed to be a CSU Sonoma Art student. Another girl or two I did not get along with, even just over the phone. I would not do this today. Even in our no touching clubs locally, if you get along with a girl and are careful about starting it, you can talk as explicitly with them as you can with phone sex girls do. And the odds of being able to see the girl OTC are much greater. Are people doing sessions with the camming girls? Why do that instead of seeing a girl at a strip club, and especially as I hear that camming sessions are not cheap. Is it somehow related to not wanting to show your own face and clothed body? SJG Adrienne Barbeau. 1973, remember her. This was in the good old days when women were forgoing bras. Johnny Carson I cannot stand. [view link] Adrienne Barbeau, belly dancing [view link] more Adrienne Barbeau [view link] more [view link] Remember, back in those days once their other gigs started to dry up, they would end up being a guest star on Love Boat. A Tribute to Valerie Perrine, I recognize some of these scenes where she is nearly topless as being from when she played the stripper Hot Honey Harlow, from the movie Lenny, with Dustin Hoffman [view link]
• serrano

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  7 years ago

  SJG - From what I have seeing, most cam sessions are not 1 on 1s. Instead it is like chatroom full of horny guy send multiple message to the camgirl on screen. Then she will harvest all tips from the entire chatroom. It make sense a pretty girl want to do this. Clean, no health risk, no deal with house fee and tipouts, make own schedule, no need for permit/fees, safety, no commute, less wear & tear on wardrobe, perhaps no need for wardrobe, no need for wear stripper heal, and efficient--all minutes of her cam effort is not devote to a single customer but all customer viewing her chatroom (well, really she just pay attention to camera lens...she cannot even see her customer...which lead to her own emotional protection and better mental well-being perhap...her customer are not real people with faces, just online users who might tip her through the computer). Interesting time we are live in now.
• san_jose_guy

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  7 years ago

  Serrano, a whole chat room of guys, and some way of handling the money. Never heard of that before. And why do guys do this instead of going to a f2f strip club? How much are they spending? Is it like they are doing it on their work time? Hee Hee Hee! SJG [view link] Where a girls' night out for fun, means dressing the part and going to the street hooker area, and where getting paid is not very important. Newly discovered MLK speech, Jan 1964, about Apartheid and Segregation: [view link] TJ Street Photos [view link] [view link] Yab Yum [view link] Hermetic Hour [view link]
• stripfighter

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  7 years ago

  Camming has it's place. Enjoy being the director when I'm home in the jammies. Would no where near spend as much as on a good stripper. Most ever on a cam girl was maybe 40$ and agree with the OP there are plenty of very good looking ones. Problem is when they try to charge stripper prices for non-stripper experience. But to each their own.
• theDirkDiggler

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  7 years ago

  I don't think camming is the reason (or the main reason) strip clubs are going downhill. Strip clubs have been going downhill for a long time since the recession and camming has only been taking off for a few years now. The culture's changed. The young people (millennials) are either getting poorer or cheaper to spend hundreds or more at strip clubs. You have backpage, Craig's List, Sugar Daddies, or just straight up free hook ups at parties. Young people aren't going to pay big money for the average modern strip club experience. Older people will be reluctant as well. Since strippers aren't making as much money relative to the 90s and early 00s, they're not sticking with it. The easy fast money is no longer easy or fast. Young girls just show it off for free with modern sexting and social media, or as a famous comedian once said, the stock of pussy is at an all time low. It's not just strip clubs that have taken a beating; there isn't as much money in porn or even escorting/hooking. They're all making less than they did 20 years ago despite inflation. Gone are the 10k a night hookers or the 10k a scene porn stars. Porn stars used to make most of their money (20k+ a week) feature dancing. That was in the mid-late 90s. Now no one pays for porn and no one cares if a woman is a porn star (in terms of strip club draw). The more that women cam, the less the average camgirl will make including the top earners. I still don't think that top camgirls make more than top strippers. So the top camgirl makes 100k a month? How long does the top camgirl stay on top? That list is always changing and getting more diluted every day. You can't just extrapolate that the top camgirl (if there is such a thing) makes over a million a year from camming. Also the average top camgirl works a lot more, has more overhead, and probably pays much more in taxes as she doesn't get paid in cash and is easier to audit. We supposedly know how much the top camgirls (out of all of them) make. No one really knows how much the top strippers make. In the south side of Chicago (one of the wastelands of strip clubs), the very top girls (and just regular house dancers, not feature dancers) would routinely make over a couple grand on a good night. (An hour in the VIP would cost $500-800+, not including tip, which is usually another couple hundred or so depending on what she does). Yes, about 1/3 or more of that base hourly rate would go to the club, but a naughty hot girl in a well run busy club could make over $500 per hour from her regulars (and a naughty hot girl, like a 9 or 10, will certainly have regulars) ITC. There's also OTC which is also done on her own time (not that different from all the overtime camgirls put in). A top house stripper should able to cover all her costs (house fees, house mom, DJ, wardrobe, transportation) just from the stage (as long as the stage is setup in a way for the girl to make money; some stages are super lame and bring almost no money for the girl). Food and drink will be paid for by some customer. No one (and i mean no one) really knows exactly how much the top girls are making except for the girls themselves. And these girls I'm thinking of are probably not in the top 500 or even top 1000 in the country. An average stripper can make over 50 grand a summer in Alaska if she's willing to spend her summers there. So it's not reflective of the industry as a whole to compare the top earners. Median earners is a better example of which occupation pays more. I would bet that camming has a higher turnover/attrition rate despite the better looking girls on average. I would also bet that the average earnings drop down a lot from top 1 to top 10 to top 100 to top 1000 which is still way above the median earnings. As of now, strip clubs are still making money, which means that strippers are still making money. There is probably no other industry that is as dependent on their workers making money to survive. The strip clubs I see failing are the overpriced topless clubs that offer NOTHING that anyone nowadays will pay for. I'm looking at clubs like Scores in Stone Park, Illinois, the recently closed Allure in the same area, and the recently opened Gold Club also in the same location. Only a certain type of club will survive and that type of club will evolve and emerge as the business model to emulate. Heck in the last several years, the freaking Admiral in Chicago and the Silver Slipper Saloon in Ottawa, IL recently started allowing contact (and even fairly moderate contact if the dancer was fine with it) because they apparently needed to change something to draw in business despite having very attractive dancers. That's about all I have to say about the subject. I'm not an expert or an insider, but I spend enough time and money at strip clubs to know a thing or two about what makes them work and what doesn't. On the other hand, I don't spend a dime on camgirls, but I've seen quite a few for free, so that's about all I know regarding that industry.
• Papi_Chulo

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  7 years ago

  It appears to me some clubs are trying to get more people in the door by being more nightclub(ish) and thus one sees a good amount of couples and groups of people that seem to go mainly for the show and the ambiance vs spending on dancers - IMO this not a solution as many of these custies are often just spectators and if dancers are not making $$$ from them then that further exasperates the problem
• san_jose_guy

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  7 years ago

  What I had read on Black Strip Clubs . Net, now seemingly gone, and mostly reading about the South East, was that at the night time those places turn into regular night clubs. The dances are more just decoration, though they still get lots of money. Huge groups of black guys are there throwing money over each others heads and onto the stage. So if you want mongering and front room GFE, come during the day time. In many such places the girls give you very little choice but to start making out with them. I learned long ago that at clubs where the rules are bent, daytime is best. And the Alcohol inspectors usually come at night time, mostly looking for things getting slippery with the alcohol serving. So daytime is better. SJG
• skibum609

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  7 years ago

  Cam girls are billionaires, like all sex workers and the reason some are fat and disgusting is that hot women don't want to make 100k a month. Russia is full of shit, like Putin.
• cantsleep

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  7 years ago

  "I disagree. Detroit has been extras-central for 10 years now but the dancer quality has declined only in RECENT years, coinciding with the growth of cam sites." Detroit is a run down hell hole, a lot of people would move out if they could but can't because they are trapped financially. When you are desperate, you are gonna do a lot of things you wouldn't like suck a gross strangers dick. Get real, a lot of you are just pissed because you wanna get your dicks wet the quick & easy way and the hot women are sick of having to whore themselves out to someone they normally wouldn't touch in a million years and get out as soon as they can or just don't even start.
• anonlvone

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  7 years ago

  “It's the economy, stupid.” That's my guess as to why strip clubs have been in decline. America has been exporting jobs and importing H-1B visas for decades, which has been killing off our middle class. The issue of “extras” I see as something of a “chicken vs egg” type situation. You could argue that when strippers started watching their earnings drop, they tried to compensate by offering extras. So strippers got back some of their lost earnings, and we the strip club goers, have an increased incentive to keep spending our hard earned money. I would agree that the increased expectation for “extras” has driven some girls out of strip clubs, but in my own experience the exodus has been more from the lower end clubs rather than the higher end. Though originally from Texas, I spent about a dozen years in Las Vegas (my posts from that time were under a different name). When I left Texas all men’s clubs in Austin were topless only, and touching wasn’t allowed in any of them. When I returned Austin had four nude clubs and touching is so common it’s not even considered an extra. That said, you can still find beautiful, intelligent women at the better Austin clubs who don’t allow touching at all. They sell themselves through their personality, and while I’m sure their earnings suffer, apparently they make enough to meet their needs (although I know from experience many of them will offer companion type dates to their better customers). On the other hand, the less attractive/intelligent/personable white girls who used to make a killing in nude clubs got squeezed out when prettier and curvier Hispanic and Cuban girls moved in. These newcomers can’t work effectively in the better Austin clubs because their lack of English makes them less appealing to the more affluent White customers, while their willingness to offer more of a “hands on” experience makes them more competitive at the lower end clubs. I’ve heard white girls blame the Cuban girls for their loss of income, but again, I see this as a “chicken vs egg” type argument. From what I can tell, the majority of their income loss happened before the Cuban invasion even began, so in my opinion these Cuban girls have probably kept one or two Austin nude clubs from going out of business. As for camming, that’s simply not an option for the average stripper. Every weekend you will find girls from San Antonio, Dallas and Houston in the Austin clubs. Where are the Austin girls? Probably in Dallas or Houston (San Antonio has those retarded pastie laws). Strippers can protect their anonymity. Camming is absolutely the opposite. Don’t be surprised if someone you know recognizes you your first month on cam, your first week, your first day. (And this is without the new facial recognition technologies that are being developed) Of course if you make it to your first month on cam you’ve reached a milestone. A lot of girls, the majority of girls, don’t even survive the first week. But every week you do survive, and the more success you achieve, directly increases your odds of being identified, either now or in the future, because once something is on the Internet it’s there forever. Becoming a cam girl is like starting your own business. I know several people who run their own businesses, and each and every one of them works insane hours. Successful cam girls are no exception. Technically, yes, you can set your own hours. The reality though, is that if you want to become successful on a platform like MFC, you’re going to have to put in very long days, every day of the month. Very few people have that type of work ethic. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. You’re going to have to be gorgeous. You’re going to have to have the type of “performer” personality that can build an audience. You’re going to have to be able to set up a camming studio, take care of things like hair/makeup/costumes, set up a website, produce content like photos and videos, understand how to create an online persona and design entertaining cam shows… And even if you can manage all this, then you also have to be mature enough and savvy enough to navigate all the behind-the-scenes politics and bullshit that you find on MFC and AmberCutieForums (which btw, is one of the darkest places on the internet, as just about every camgirl on that site is batshit fucking insane). So the idea that camming is a viable option for the average girl, let alone that she will become wealthy doing it, is absurd, an utter phantasy. Really the average stripper has a better chance of winning the lottery than becoming a success on MFC. I predict strip clubs will make a recovery. President Trump wants to penalize companies that ship jobs overseas, while domestic investment is already increasing. If/when the economy turns around and the American middle class male has more disposable income again, strip clubs will rebound despite the increased prevalence of extras, or the existence of camming (a cam show on a laptop can’t compete with a live girl on your lap), or increased competition from ethnic minorities (the last I heard, illegal immigration is already slowing down, and the Cubans are no longer getting a free pass to emigrate to the United States).
• anonlvone

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  7 years ago

  I just re-read your article again, and a lot of the quotes you posted are just straight up bullshit. Guys do not just hand over cash to you if you're a cam girl. The money is very inconsistent and so you have to have the discipline to save. And it's definitely not easier and definitely not stress free. In fact dealing with the stress is one of the major obstacles to camming. Also, from the guy's perspective, there's a lot of scams going on and you can easily lose a lot of money. There's a ton of downside to camming from the customer's/guy's perspective, but I'm not going to get into that.
• Bananafish

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  7 years ago

  "America has been exporting jobs and importing H-1B visas for decades, which has been killing off our middle class" "As for camming, that’s simply not an option for the average stripper. " My article was focused on high end clubs, not middle-range clubs or clubs dominated by "average strippers". I am certain camming has been draining talent from the top-25 or so clubs on TUSCL. Camming is a viable and popular option for many high end strippers as you can see through the growth and the Viewing Activty of the camming forum on stripperweb on any given day. Your middle class decline statement, while true, doesn't match up, since the decline in high end clubs has only happened in RECENT years while the middle class decline started much earlier as you point out. The timing of the decline I write about, and is evidenced in reviews here on TUSCL, more closely coincides with the growth of camming sites.
• anonlvone

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  7 years ago

  What do you consider a “high end” club? To me, if the target customer spends at least $500 per visit, I would probably, but not necessarily, consider that a high end club. You seem to think being in the Top 25 on TUSCL qualifies as a high end club. Having just examined that list, I’m not sure how that squares with your other belief that high end clubs don’t have average strippers. I have personal experience with #4 Palazio in Austin, Texas; #7 San Antonio Men’s Club in San Antonio, Texas; and #21 Treasures, Las Vegas, Nevada. Personally I wouldn’t consider any of these to be high end clubs. And based upon your statement that high end clubs don’t have “average” strippers, I would have to assume that you don’t either. But since you’ve already contradicted yourself, let’s move on. I remember the Yellow Rose in Austin, Texas back in the late 80s, early 90s. The women were gorgeous, and they would often get on stage in actual dresses before stripping down to thongs. They were good conversationalists, and the focus was on seduction, not extras. When I got to Las Vegas, I naturally gravitated to Club Paradise. Most every girl was stunning. They were all well dressed, and well spoken, and you were reminded that women have much more to offer than just their bodies. Both the Yellow Rose and Club Paradise still exist, physically, but if you visit them nowadays you’re going to be in for a much different experience. Part of it has to do with the decline in our culture. Nothing screams low class like tattoos and piercings on women. But it’s not just their appearance. Women today seem to have forgotten the art of seduction. And part of it has to do with the decline in our economy. I have friends who are undeniably upper middle class. For years I tried to tell them how bad the economy was, but they wouldn’t listen. One of them was always jetting around the world, always purchasing another car to add to his collection, always purchasing homes or real estate he didn’t need. Then about three years ago even he started to feel the pinch. Business dried up, he laid off staff, and now he’s trying to sell that prized car collection. The fact that clubs that cater more to the upper middle class didn’t really start to suffer until recently, doesn’t negate my argument. It strengthens it, because it coincides with economic changes that have now become so dire that they’re finally starting to affect everyone except the truly wealthy. And contrary to your belief, camming is not a new phenomenon. It’s been around for at least 15 years, so long in fact that the market is now saturated and earnings are drying up for all but the top performers. In fact, my first exposure to webcamming was through a drop dead gorgeous dancer I met at The San Antonio Men’s Club, who had turned to dancing because she wasn’t able to make ends meet as a camgirl. Has camming had some effect on men’s clubs? I’m sure it has, but then so has the rise of all forms of online and electronic pornography and prostitution, including amateur adult videos, online brothels, sugar daddy sites, even Tindr. Women who want to make money through sex have never had more options available to them, and this has increasingly fragmented the market for sex. However, I have trouble believing that cam sites are the principal villains here, and with regards to high end strip clubs, I particularly find your assumptions questionable. My impression is that you don’t know very much about cam sites, because if you did, you would realize that high end strip clubs and cam sites cater to two very different markets. The type of men who frequent a true high end strip club are generally intelligent, and successful, and they are willing to pay top dollar for the company of a woman who has more to offer than just a great set of tits. A man like that is not going to sit at home and peer at a tiny screen where his interactions with a woman are reduced to text on a screen in a chat room filled with dozens or hundreds of other men. The “men” who would be willing to tolerate that, are the lowest of the low, men who make betas look like alphas, because they’re completely incapable of socializing with women in the real world.
• TaraChristine

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  7 years ago

  The only people who disagree with a higher cover charge or the cheapos who only go in to watch anyway and see if someone will bone them for 20 bucks. They're the guys who go to Vegas or West Palm and get a rude awakening when a girl says its 3k for a vip room. Ha its amazing the way guys will treat you in one state, like you're not good enough for them and then you go to another state and a guy comes buys a dance and tips you what 4 dances are worth. Its about the culture. If its a place where lots of wealthy people live, even if you're not wealthy you will go in and feel like you need to spend to fit in. if its a working blue collar town, you will comfortable being tight with a dollar because everyone else is also as cheap. I mean I've broken my foot 3 times working that pole and will get down and see $2 on stage. then someone from out of town will come in and throw 300 in ones on stage and you just see all the locals get super uncomfortable.
• Dlee305

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  7 years ago

  Anonlvone came through and crushed the buildings. In the world of xvideos and pornhub, only a true herb would sit and donate tokens to a woman via camgirl who only see you as an anonymous fool.
• FatherPicklock

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  7 years ago

  Preach. This unacceptable decline in talent has to be reversed. Like other flawed industries plagued by dreadful consumer experiences (remember life before Uber?), we need some kind of disruptive business model to fix the SC business. [view link].G.A.!
• Subraman

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  7 years ago

  ^^^ could not agree more, particularly with the metaphor of an industry that has always provided dreadful customer experiences, being disrupted by others. I don't think you can point to one thing, like camming, SCs are being picked at from all sides. And it's easy pickins... One of my favorite examples, is how the hustle factor and making customers feel like suckers is so built into SC culture, that even when they seemingly give the customer a deal, with 2-for-1 dances, they cut the songs short. This is not about them worrying that the extra 45 seconds will cost them money ... it's far more about these guys working hard to make sure they feel like they're treating their customers like suckers at every turn. And if the customers realize it, great. Except perhaps for the lowest-end escorts, there is no area of the sex industry that even REMOTELY delivers such a poor customer experience, to the point that it practically feels like management is in open contempt of their own customers (and, since attitudes about customers comes from the top, every other SC employee shows the same contempt). I'll never understand the attraction of camming, but if watching a girl on TV satisfied me, I'd certain sometimes choose that over dealing with SCs. And per my recent article about SA, it is another fast-growing option that has the same advantage of SCs (you can touch the girl... eventually) without the SC-like hustle.
• Papi_Chulo

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  7 years ago

  Damn Subraman - you'd make a damn-fine strip-club consultant - both clubs and PLs would benefit from clubs taking your advice - good breakdown as usual.
• rh48hr

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  7 years ago

  Camming is attractive to the PL who is socially inept and can't talk to women, the husband who can't get to the sc or is afraid of getting caught and the voyeur who is creepy. I've never spent a penny on camming but I have checked out these websites. Camming seems similar to air dances. No touch and you lose money. The only difference is guys can jerk off if they want. I'll stick to SC's thank you.
• Book Guy

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  7 years ago

  Camming cannot POSSIBLY bring in close to the income which stripping at a top-club for a high-end good-looking girl would make in a major city. Like, what's the camming average income? Anyway, TLDR ... liked the article, ignored most of the thread.