A Story in Several Parts

Fantastic account!

I am trying to anticipate how you are going to develop your thesis though, that OTC is the only point. I take it that you mean OTC is the only point in going to strip clubs. Basically I would agree with you in this. What I would say is what a dancer told me, that you "shouldn't be using them for sexual gratification, because that is perverted."

Remember that what a perversion is is something you are using as a substitute for sex. Strip clubs as a substitute for sex? Well yes. What I take her to mean is that you shouldn't be using such clubs as your primary source of sexual expression or sexual partnering, as they are still too limited. So then, given how high the mileage can get, and given how many such clubs there are today, what exactly are they to be used for?

I see them as serving two purposes. First, they teach a sexual aesthetic. Second, some people will feel a greater affinity for them and want to get more involved than this, and so they will have outside relations with dancers ( P4P-OTC, or off the clock )

Strip clubs teach a sexual aesthetic in that they set the quality standard. It is not even necessary that they offer high mileage in order to do this either. Just seeing the girls parading around in high heels and makeup and being flirtatious, is enough to show a guy how it should be, versus how crappy it usually actually is.

Strippers are our version of the ancient world's pagan priestesses. They set the standard for ritualized and cultivated sexuality, which mere civilian women then try to live up to.

And as your story shows us, those who practice and cultivate their sexual responses develop an incredible depth.

Then as far as outside relations, if you are really taken by that world, and if you are free of other obligations and of a nature to engage with it, then you can. OTC is of course an easy first step.

Strip clubs, at least in the US, are usually not set up to operate as brothels. The owners want some level of plausible deniability. So that sofa you two were using had its uses, but also its limitations. Just having had access to a bed sheet and a small throw pillow to put on the carpeted floor would have helped a lot.

Strip clubs don't price the VIP room for FS either. For people who cultivate sexuality as a religious ritual, 60 min is only the very quickest of quickies. It's just a warm up for the series of overnight sessions which should follow.

Usually two fingers is what they like, but getting the third finger in might have made it easier to bring your thumb into play. Of course their willingness to let loose and engage in intense DFKing is phenomenal. There is no reason it should not go this way. It is horrible that people try to engage in sex acts without kissing. I see a dancer's willingness to sit on your lap and make out with you in the main room as the best indicator that she is worth making a trip to the VIP room.

Most guys have certain social types that they go for, and certain sizes and shapes too. When I first started going to strip clubs I was always looking for these types and then only interacting with them.

Then I realized that strip clubs are not the outside world. You can experiment in them in ways you might not yet be ready to yet outside. So then I did start engaging with those who were off type for me, and then also across racial and economic class lines as well. "Otherness" is the root appeal in heterosexuality.

With sweat, nuzzling, and kissing, their makeup gets messed up. But all it was supposed to do is give you a preview and to spur you on. Once you get started with her, her makeup will be replaced by her own natural colors.

I do feel that if they are going to makeup for you, then you should sometimes show your appreciation by doing it movie style and pulling out and giving her a facial.

SJG

up tempo live version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBtLClr_M…

Sounds like you had a good time.

"Come hither motion as recommended..." You learned well, Grasshopper.

I like your theory on OTC but for some guys like me it's just too hard to consistently achieve. For example I may be in a club in Texas 3 times over 4 months and then I won't be by there again for several years. It's the tale of a traveling man... It's hard do build a rapport working that way... Therefore I look to achieve my dreams inside the club or on a rare occasion trying to lure a OTC for a one night stand after work... Always isn't as easy as it should be. Where I've had my best luck is meeting a girl on a night who is willing to meet a few night later when she isn't working and if I'm still in town...

Btw excellent article

"...I've never been in VIP she said, I think you owe me more money."

Lol. I have no doubt that she was very orgasmic as she thought about rolling that 1/2 hr VIP into a full hour collection. ;)

THis is why OTC, or better still Toda La Noche, or better still strictly off the clock, are better. VIP room is just a preview, and letting the girl figure out a way of taking control of it could be a problem.

"LDK", HJ, BJ, and FS in the VIP room lend themselves to "blueball extortion". In this case though I don't know if the girl intended that. Making out and FIV are about as far as it can go in shifting it back upon her and letting her surrender completely. So what happened happened. If they were able to continue OTC or even Off the Clock, that would be awesome.

I'm interested to see NationalTravelers next installement. He has told us what happened in the VIP room, and it sounds fantastic. But he has not yet shared his interpretation of it yet.

SJG

Thinking more about this. Usually if the girl is trying to set up a blue balls extortion, then she is going to opt for "LDK", HJ, or BJ, and just do a very little bit of it because some guys cum quickly.

Here is a review written by one Lew A. of S.F. Crazy Horse, discussing some booth time with an Asian girl.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/crazy-horse-gent…

I think it important that people are required to be 18yo before going in to such places. And also, the more friendly you can get with a dancer in the main seating area, by feeding her small amounts of money, then the better any VIP room or OTC will be. I think main room affection should be the litmus test to use.

With FS-ITC, you can control it. All the more so if you can put her on her back, or use a rear entry position. So if you know your response patterns and do book enough time, there should not be a blue balls problem. If time does run out, it will be the girl who is left wanting more. Experienced girls come quickly and frequently. But they still hold off on the final climax until you come. So she is not going to intentionally deprive herself of that.

So if upon putting her on her back and proceeding, you still cannot cum, that is not really a blue balls experience. It is just that you are not yet recuperated from the last time, or you are still not really comfortable with her. Nothing whatsoever to be ashamed of. I think the act can be discontinued gracefully. Best would be to return for another visit another day, and to tell her that you will do this and when, or just offer to take her off site that night. Ideally one could just say, "I'd like to take you home with me and continue this in my own bed." or "I'd like to continue this with you at a motel." Given what has just transpired, I don't think any of this is being presumptuous.

Now the girl described in this story is doing intensive DFK and intensive FIV. I don't think she was intentionally making it run into over time. I think she likes the guy, and likes getting off that way. Usually one of the reasons some girls don't like to make out and do FIV is that it does send them into orbit. I remember one lap sitter explaining of that say, "If I did that I would be falling in love with all of my customers."

So if you want to say that she had some ulterior motive, then it was probably to set up a phenomenal OTC with this guy. She might have desires which go beyond just getting paid too.

So again, the more time you can spend with them and the more intimate you can get, especially DFK and FIV, then the better whatever follows will be.

But this story does indicate that you need to be watching the clock yourself. If the 30 min runs out, just tell her that you want to continue it with her, in your own bed or in a motel.

Sometimes dancers have physically opened up to me in ways I had not expected, and I declined to give more than token engagement, because I knew that what they really wanted went way beyond just getting some more tip money, and I was not at that time prepared to give that.

Generally though being able to engage with a dancer fairly freely in a strip club environment, and then somehow being able to move to an easy and expressive FS environment, is a huge improvement over traditional brothels or escort services.

I still want to hear how NationalTraveler interprets his experience, and also I want to hear what happened next.

SJG

Louis Jordan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlKmnXV5q…

Bill Maher
I do not agree with this guy's Libertarian views, or his take on Feminism. But he is still hilarious!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W55-nFRei…

Hey guys, much enjoyed and mostly agree with comments; the story will tell the truth in every detail and in the end explain everything; and here is part II:

She was cute, hot, irreverent, a beautiful ebony 19 year old college student unjaded by the biz. I met her one night the first time I dropped into the small rural club. Fifteen minutes later I was in VIP with her for another fifteen minutes that turned into an hour; best VIP ever and great personal connection, but I had run out of money, the club was soon closing and she didn’t know me well enough to trust me with a ride home, all I could do was say goodbye and leave. Thought of nothing but the return visit.

Five weeks later back in the area( which I visit once a month), walked into the club and sat down at the bar, she immediately crawled across the bar and asked if I remembered her. Yes, I said, it’s why I’m here – thank you for getting into the moment with me last time; thank you for giving me the moment to get into she said. VIP started out hot; do you have a place near here she asked? Will you take me home later she asked? Promise? She left with me at closing, first time ever for me; went to the private spot where I stay. As soon as we were in the car she was all over me as I drove, pushing my hand into her dancer bottoms, begging me to touch her. At my place, we were quickly naked on the bed touching, her begging me to take her; but I was still unsure of a new very young girl, settled for touching and then went down on her, she came hard, looked at me and said, we will but not tonight, took her home where I dropped her off in the middle of a street. Friday was her last night before vacation, so no Saturday night visit, I had her phone number now though.

Three weeks later, short VIP (pay me what you think its worth), because she wanted to come back to my place or hers after a fast food stop. She got in the car, passed out, couldn’t wake her, took her to my place (I didn’t know where she lived and she obviously couldn’t tell me) and put her to bed, where she promptly curled up, shoes and all, and stayed passed out. Oh well, best to let sleeping dancers lie.

Woke her up finally, and she wanted to stop at Quick Check and go home. On the way home she suggested a stop to pick up some cash. Covers club from night before (I did owe something) and an advance on the next evening to pay her late rent. Ok, seemed fair, and she is really cute and hot and all. Grabbed cash, stopped at her place where she invited me onto the croton she slept on and after a bit pulled off my pants, climbed on top and began to push me inside her; I avoided the movement, saying, wait, but she quickly enveloped me saying “Hmm, I think you like being in there” it was hot and hard and fast and very nice and she slumped down by my side and snuggled up (hey, so what if she passed out last night, this girl is very sweet), unfortunately had to make an untimely exit to go to our place to do projects.

Nice personal connection continued and she wanted me to come to the club that night, had planned to drive her home. I got to the club at 10 or so, had about $400 on me but not planning to spend much. Usual setup saw her a bit since she was working, she told me to hang, not tip anyone and NO DANCES, she’d be back. Cool, we know and trust each other, now we don’t even need to hang together in the club. She came back a few times, introduced me to a few friends (ok to tip them) told me we wouldn’t really see much of each other but after the club closed we would hang out at her place. Perfect, I had a box of great fun presents in the trunk and we would relax and play with new toys!

So, hang, don’t tip anyone and NO DANCES, she’d be back. Now that turned out to be quite a challenge. All these cute scantily dressed girls and I couldn’t even talk to them, so what do I say when each girl comes up to me and says hi what’s your name.. Plus I had to avoid tipping at the bar, which meant that, what, I say no to all the girls that pass holding open their tops to collect? So it became an evening of avoiding every girl who came near. I developed new tactics; as a girl approached I would glance and look away – that stopped a large percent. More persistent ones would not be put off or would sneak up on me, so then had to figure out how to get rid of them quick so it wouldn’t look like I was talking to them. Usually just saying I’m waiting for someone worked, sometimes had to get tougher – I’m waiting for someone and if I am even seen talking to you I will get in trouble (course I was thinking this wasn’t setting me up well for the future, but hopefully they will all forget). The girls at the bar were harder, so if it was not one of her friends I would get up and leave the bar as I saw the approach. Worked ok, bar wasn’t busy so I didn’t lose my seat.
So I sat in the club and watched it all play out, pretty cool, the music, the dancers all working the guys around the room, fun to watch when not distracted as you usually are. She came back quite a few times with friends, didn’t pay much attention to what she was doing otherwise, she was there somewhere. She’d bring friends and ask if I’d buy rounds of shots, of course I would. Two friends were introduced as ok to do dances with as long as she was there. Great, three girls; um, $50 each plus tip; special premium pricing just for me? Ok, hey its fun right? Whatever she wants, it’s her show.

One of her friends asked for a dance, no I said, I’m not allowed. I’m her best friend; she said it was ok. No I said. After 2 more rounds of this, I agreed, if that is what she wanted (where was she anyway). My least favorite of the girls, but I can be polite, what the heck. In the middle of the dance she walked by the booth; one look at her face and it was clear it was defiantly NOT ok. Well her friend would clear it all up; uh oh, no such luck looks like you are on your own; explanations didn’t seem to be working; gee never saw her mad before, sure don’t want to piss her off in the future. Well when we hang out later we can talk about it, should be ok when I explain it to her.

After a few rounds of shots and dances I realized I was out of cash, hadn’t figured there was going to be much to spend it on. Grabbed $100 from the machine but that’s the max, and in 30 minutes it was gone, and I had gone through every cent I had. Luckily the club was closing soon; I could nurse my Bud light to the end.

Oh, by the way, my friends need a ride home, can they come too? Of course.

Club closed, warmed up the car, they came out, we headed out. Stopped at Quick Check for food and to harass the staff. You have not lived till you’ve watched 4 cute young dancers in street clothes running amok at Quick Check at 2:30 in the morning, very cute. Hey this was turning out to be quite entertaining.

Headed to their town, went onto campus, headed up a driveway to where they wanted to be dropped off. They all started to get out - so did she.

Um, I thought we were hanging out. Oh, she said, change in plans, need to hang with my friends. But, ah, I thought……. Well, didn’t really matter it was 3AM, but still, the presents, and the personal quality time; now she’s blowing me off??

Ok, best thing to do is keep your mouth shut, let it go, don’t say anything you’ll regret, no use discussing in front of her friends. I love you, do you love me? Yes, I said, shocked, not knowing what else to say. She left, mooned the car (hey she’s still cute, but now getting kinda annoying) and I quickly pulled out of the lot, around the corner out of sight and stopped at the stop sign and just sat. I was stunned, let down and feeling kinda empty. What just happened?

I pulled out the rolled one I had brought, and I started to laugh. It was funny: sitting at a stop sign alone at 3AM with not a cent in my pocket on some college campus. I couldn’t stop laughing.

Why? Well because, oh you who thinks he knows so much, $1200 later sitting alone in a car at 3AM; you have just been Stripper 101’d; you trusted her and weren’t even paying enough attention to see it coming.
No reason to take it personally, they do what they do, you are the sucker. I laughed at myself all the way home.

There was just one question, why?

To be continued........

National Traveler,

Thank you for sharing this second installment with us. I'm right away taken with the fact that what might have quickly turned into mind blowing sex, didn't, but instead it turned into a bottomless and totally unnecessary money drain and a source of frustration. If your lady friend wanted it to happen with you, she would never set up situations where you would end up giving money to the SC or to the other girls. She would respect you and your money. She does not know what she wants or what she is doing. Quite understandable and very common among young women who really have never had to work for a living. Also, I am skeptical now about just how much of a college student she really is.

My position has always been that sex could be free, easy, and in gross surplus, if we just let it be that way. There are other social strictures we have created which make it scarce and expensive.

1. 5 weeks is too long to wait. You want to get them before they approach their next minstrel cycle, because that is like a reset for them. You want to bring it to fruition quickly. Best is to get a girl right after Aunt Flo leaves town, and then enjoy how she gets hornier and hornier up to her ovulation time, but then stay away as she starts on the down slope.

But I also understand, your life is not organized around fucking strippers. Most people's are not either. So more often than not, what happens is nothing.

2. When she declined to fuck the first night you were with her alone, that was clear indication that it wasn't going to go anywhere.

3. People have posted recently accounts of P4P evenings with such ladies. The ladies are phenomenal. They are gracious and tactful in public, as well as appropriately slutty. Then in bed they are second to no one. There is a cost, but it is not boundless. The women are doing it because they like it just as much as you do.

4. This 19yo is not like that. She is not sure exactly what she is doing, so if you are with her, you are just wasting time. She needs to decide what she wants. But also you need to decide what you want. My own exploits with strippers were always hamstrung because I was married, and I really did not want to be paying them to be covert. I didn't really want a paid mistress or anything like that.

5. You don't want to go to her strip club any more than absolutely necessary. Those places are extreme money bleeds. Only go there to meet a girl, never to continue a relationship with her. Zero reason to deal with the other girls. Zero reason to deal with the 19yo there either. Deal with her only outside, up until the place where the relationship reaches its climax and then it is time to let it sit. Sounds like this happened very early and that it did not go much further. If she won't give up her phone number, but she is still acting like she might fuck you, she is just playing you because she does not know what she wants either.

6. When you are driving them to the Check place, they are just playing you, wasting your time, money and gas. They are seeing how far they can push you, without offering any cunt.

7. I know this is all easier said than done, but you have to draw limits with her. If you want, go to her club, chat her up, do zero dances or VIP action. Avoid the other dancers and other expenditures. Ask her out and exchange contact info. Maybe she accepts, maybe she does not. Maybe she accepts some time later or at a later visit. Remember, they have a monthly reset pulse on their affairs and emotions.

Ever notice how so many women find it hard to use maps. They can do it, but they are not used to thinking in the way one has to to use a map. But what they know instinctively how to use is the calendar. When you deal with women, you need to be using the calendar too. Log all of your communications with them on the calendar. It makes certain patterns obvious and it undercuts many of their obfuscations.

8. Don't let her pull you into unstructured or ambiguous situations, or into anything like "hanging out". You are not one of her girl friends. Either it is the two of you alone and she is your date, or it is nothing. She may well go for it, if this is what you really want. I am sure that she could be an ideal mind blowing date. But most of the time, it is actually the guys who back out first because it just starts to get weird like this is.

I'm in California. But usually when people talk about places I look them up. Seeing pictures of them helps me understand. You reviewed a place at 318 US-46 West. What is said about it on yelp makes it sounds like it is not much of anything. I am not able to find the exact building. Usually even if a place is not in Google's index, I can still find that address. Even if the pictures do not show their signage, I can still usually figure it out.

Might you be able to provide some more details so that I can locate the actual building and see what it looks like?

If a place is extremely small, then it might be more of a brothel than a strip club. If they cannot seat enough people in there, then there is just about no other way that the dancers could be making money.

If I understood your first installment, the only covering on the entrance to the VIP room is a curtain of bead strings?

Having a chance meeting with a stripper that is mind blowing, but then what ever more might come of it is nothing but frustration, is extremely common. Strippers and other variety of working girls use that professional mode to protect themselves from emotional vulnerability, and to protect themselves most from the decent and honest guys that they feel attracted to.

SJG

Hand of Fate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKH9enYi…

Oh my, it's all that obvious huh ;-). SJG your comments are quite amazing and mostly right on. This all happened over a year and a half ago and I know where it all goes and you call a heck of a lot of it correctly. I learned from this whole experience but the point of the series is to educate the reader about what not to do, what the warning signs are. Your recap certainly gives perspective to all that playing better than I could have, off the story. The club is the one I reviewed, I don't have a pic. Couple of corrections, I did have her number and we were regularly texting from the second meeting on. The lack of sex on the second meeting was more my fault than hers, she wanted to and I delayed with oral and that took the wind out of it - she did finally force it though on the third get together. You are right though that she did not know what she was doing, it was her first dancer gig and she had never left w anyone before. What was happening here though was that she was getting focused on monetizing it. From this point on she was focused on $750 a weekend and things went into a downward spiral for 12 months or so including bouts of "don't ever text or call me again" (I didn't) and then she'd be back in touch and want to get together mostly through a series of one night club engagements (she wouldn't like the club and never go back) where she wanted the support and a ride home. There were a few brief full sexual encounters but in the next episode (a year later) it all changes to amazing over the top sex I could never have in my life imagined before complete unmitigated disaster that could have cost me everything I had. Yes, there is no other point than OTC for me (I will share lots more over the top stories about other girls in the future) but the risks are high as are the unexpected costs and my inexperience (highlighted by how clearly SJC sees what I did not at the time due to his deeper perspective and experience) led to a lot of very costly mistakes. I was wondering how to bridge over the next 12 months if crap to the amazing next episode - this gave me the way!

Episode 3 will blow your mind.....

https://www.google.com/maps/place/U.S.+4…

You can see the satellite view and the street view, but this is not actually the correct address. Looking at other addresses along this U.S. 46, I still cannot find it. Street view does not go up private roads, easements or driveways, and this is part of the problem. But Satellite view shows everything. Maybe you can find it, or at least tell me a cross street or something. The signage may not show in the photos, and reading Yelp it sounds like this place might not even be functioning anymore.

In your estimation, were they commonly doing FS-ITC, or would that have been rare to never?

If she wanted it to be P4P, then she would have had to have kept it that way from the very start. She can give you a real good time in the VIP room, but she still has to keep it business like. Running way over time and then telling you that you owe her money is not business like.

Once you have gone off the clock with her like that, once she sees you as potentially something other than a client, then it would be very hard for you to ever be her client again.

For her to really open up to you and let down her emotional defenses like that and let you send her into orbit in the VIP room, she is also having to let herself totally surrender, with no conditions. It is quite understandable why women would have to be wired up this way.

She talked with you, she saw that you were not like 99% of the other people she deals with, and so she was extremely attracted to you. But she also feels this as an extreme danger to herself.

So she wants to keep it pay 4 play, but another side of her does not want this.

Dealing with such a girl will be dangerous in many different ways.

Your delaying sex the first time you were alone with her, by doing oral, should not have mattered. You have to trust your instincts. She was just ambivalent.

It is not that I have handled situations any better. Most of the times they were far worse.

My first experience was in talking with a Go-Go dancer and she saying, "I don't go out with customers." But then because I was not put off by this, but instead saw it as challenge to my honor. What she said next was, "Well okay" and then "You don't understand, I get hit on by 50 guys a night."

It took me years to finally understand what was going on in that conversation. "Well okay" meant that I was no longer a customer. But what it also meant was that she would be calling me and saying "I want to *SEE* you", and on what was for me a work night."

About the 50 guys a night, that was her way of backing up, almost an apology, for why she had been so sharp with me.

But the result of this was that I would go on to anger and hurt the feelings of a girl I had never even touched, had no phone number for, and did not even know the real name of. It all came back to that "Well okay." At that point I had her, if I were able to see that and if I had really known what I had wanted.

I was not married at that time, but a lot of the problems are because guys are married. We need to start putting money into a scholarship fund, so we can start sending some of these girls to school, so that they can start practicing divorce law.

But even that does not go far enough. P4P gives us an additional perspective, but it is not an actual remedy. We need to instead create some new types of social structures. This is something I hope to be writing about.

Sex is about power. It is a kind of male violence. If you want to get to a girl, best is to move as Aunt Flo is leaving town. Be talking to the girl, on the phone. If you see her on the last day, bring an old towel to spread out on top of the bedding. Then just keep banging her like you own her. Do it everyday if you can. Keep her head spinning, while each day she'll be waking up to a higher hormone level than what she faced the day before. Keep doing it until you can see that she has passed over the summit.

Then start "giving her space". How big her mood swings are depends on what kinds of emotional stresses she is under. Getting her brains fucked out everyday will make her completely irrational. But with her rising hormone levels it will be very hard for her decline.

Any form of contraception which is under her control may prove completely useless. But forms of contraception which are under your control may not work much better.

Then see what happens. Maybe you have out of town business, or just other things to attend to. You keep in touch. You talk to her on the phone. When she calls you she probably has the calendar open on her lap and is counting days. Then just wait and see as she goes through her system reset. Maybe the relationship will continue, but maybe not.

If you socialize with her, never go to strip clubs, and do not go to night clubs which cater to people more her age. Do not hang out with her friends.

Instead, take her to places where people your age go and introduce her to your friends.

Things have been very hard for me. I have done very little which is right. But I am convinced that by building different kinds of social structures, that the present state of affairs can be greatly improved upon.

What SC's and P4P show us is that when they want to be, women can be extremely appealing and pleasing. They can deliver mind blowing sex, and they have a very high capacity. Sex should not need to be in short supply or expensive. But P4P just shows us the possibility. It is not itself the solution.

When these girls see you as a client, they are also seeing you as a mark. There is always con artistry in this. Even more so in SC's, as they sell more fantasy than delivery. But even if the girl is doing escorting or OTC, she is also still to some degree being a con artist.

If a girl can con you, then she also cannot respect you, and then she will not be able to open herself up to you, and she will not be able to surrender and engage in mind blowing sex.

But the kinds of guys that they are most frightened of are the ones they can respect. Watch the movies Klute and Leaving Las Vegas. The book for the latter is really good too. They show the devices working girls deploy to protect themselves when they are feeling attracted to a guy. What makes them attracted to a guy is that he is not like them and not like almost everyone else they deal with.

Look forward to reading your next installment.

SJG

NationalTraveler,

I just want to add a little bit to what I have already said. One thing which jumped out at me with your first post was this. When you went to the strip club, you were not looking for anything in particular. You were not expecting some minimum level of mileage, or even "LDK", or anything. You were not trying to set up OTC, or to find a girl you would maintain contact with, or anything. You were not especially trying to contain costs either.

The girl must have figured this out early on, and I'm sure this was a big factor in why she was able to just let go in the VIP room.

Maybe sometimes since tough when she has not wanted to see you, it is because she doesn't feel it right to be taking more money off of you.

And then maybe other times she feels that letting an SC suck money out of you is a way to protect herself from you.

Thing is though, unless you know what you want, it isn't right to criticize her for not knowing what she wants.

SJG

Oh, I wasn't criticizing her, just agreeing with your comment that she didn't know what she was doing, you are correct though I had no goal that first night. But overall my goal is always the same, convert the right girl to an OTC experience. I have succeeded in that numerous times due to a strange confluence of events. After a couple of early visits I read two web downloaded books: Strip Club Seduction and MACK Tactics. Both opened my eyes to all I had missed over the years with women. The tactics book recommended trying out the methods in on strippers to get used to talking to and seducing beautiful women and stop being intimidated. I lost the fear of approach, conversation, of being older (um 60, turns out a large number of women are genetically programmed to like older men), and the fear of closing. All of a sudden I was inundated with OTC strippers in all sorts of pay, no pay, help out a little, and even loving relationships and ongoing friendships (I'm a nice person and never anticipated the effect being treated like a human being can have on strippers). My joke is that I don't go to clubs anymore I just live off the residuals ;-); the girls around the cities I have visited that keep in touch lobbying for a visit. It was hilarious, the combo of those books blew the lid off my life both in the relationships and in being pulled into the lifestyle which was astonishing to me. But I made bad mistakes with those girls too. Many of which (some I didn't even recognize) you called out and made me think about deeper. This story is the worst series of mistakes I made and where it led in expense, potential loss of everything I have; yet with the most amazing sex ever - and I think her deep love (which drove the worst jealousy I have ever encountered). This was meant to be a cautionary tale but the comments have given me pause too.

Btw the club sits right on the road (literally 6 feet from it) it is a long ago converted residence with lots of add ons. It looks like a red neck biker bar you would never go into but it's not as bad as that review makes it sound, the girls are almost never from the area and are friendly and generally fun. I'll get a pic next trip

Yes, those books sound great. Love to see links. I'll try to find that club building on Google too, just for my own curiosity.

I am a nerd, just like Elliot Rodgers. I had to come of age as a stigmatized entity in oppressive social environments. So I would have zero experience in interacting with women if it were not for my hundreds and hundreds of conversations in the local zero touching strip clubs. People are always trying to say that strippers are only there to make money, and so in their interactions with you they are always just going to be play acting. People have tried to rebuke me on this forum with that sort of view.

I know they are wrong. Women are always play acting. Where this originates is that they don't want you to know when they are ovulating. So when flirting with them the first thing to do is to get them out of their situational script and out of any on the job persona. This applies in strip clubs, with street hookers, or in any other kind of situation. It is not that difficult. You want to get them into the sorts of communications where their body language and facial blushing betray any play acting they might try to engage in.

Your greatest tool is often that you are the one selecting the girl and you are the one showing initiative. You will have exactly one chance to do this with her. Rarely do I waste this chance. After that, chasing after her aggressively only diminishes you.

I want return briefly to this matter someone raised that the 19yo may have been engaging in Blue Balls Extortion. I do not agree with that interpretation.

I think some have gone way to far with this idea that it is the girls job to "get them off" or "bust a nut". They are of course talking about dry humping, HJ, BJ, or girl on top FS. I can see how some strip clubs are set up to promote this, and why the strippers would like this. It puts them in charge. And it can lead to Blue Balls Extortion, though I don't think they are likely to intentionally set it up this way.

I don't think these modes are good ways of relating to women. You give up your power to them when you let them diffuse the sexual tension so easily.

Those types of acts should be reserved for occasional use with one you are already getting unlimited free sex from on a regular basis.

My own experiences with the sort of thing you have described as happening in the VIP room with her that first night, does not actually cause Blue Balls. It raises arousal and desire, but it still does not go as far as Blue Balls. It heats the guy up, and the girl just goes completely into orbit and forgets her name.

So yes, she probably was taking an intentional gambit that she could extend the VIP session and get more money, and that was not completely ethical in my view, but I think her main objective was actually to set up OTC with you that very night.

This is what many of them do. So, I don't think you have much work to do in terms of "converting" them. And then once you actually do fuck her, it no longer matters how P4P it was supposed to be, you do have a very much more complex relationship with her.

I understand what you are saying about OTC. My view is that the only reason for going to strip clubs is to learn the aesthetics, like the visuals, the body language communications, and the flirting, and then also to set up outside contacts. So with this in mind, the club mileage is not that important. Likewise the costs are not that important either as you won't need to be doing it very often.

What a dancer told me is, "You shouldn't use strip clubs for sexual gratification, as that is perverted."

I think the folks who go there so that they can assign the girl the job of "busting a nut" are an extreme example of this sort of perversion. Perversion means that someone is substituting something for sex and for the complex emotional relationship which flows from this.

So I do understand your position about OTC. I do hope very much that you will be writing for us about your OTC adventures as well.

Right now I am tied down, but what has interested me is TMojo's article about the Hong Kong strip club - brothel in Tijuana. I am seeing that as being designed for hooker binges. I am very interested in this. The idea is that you don't make appointments or dates, as these waste the time of both parties and commit both parties to a waking and sleeping schedule in the day preceding.

So instead of this, just spot one you like and go for it. But then afterwards, maybe she doesn't really need to be anywhere. Maybe she would like to be taken to eat. Maybe she would like to bathe in those fancy rooms at the Hong Kong. Or maybe she will just put her head on your shoulder and close her eyes. Either way, she is probably going to end up getting more fucking and more money.

The idea is just to go for it, and see how far you can go in taking your body to new extremes. I mean even one girl will be able to out pace you. But you will still be able to make a real impression on her if you let her see how much you like dicking her, by keeping her around and maybe by promenading her out and about the neighborhood. Girls really love that.

Then eventually she goes on, and so you just rest some, change the bed sheets, and then find another.

When the guy goes on a binge, then he is going off of the solar clock hours and off of the 7 day week and the Sabbath. What he is doing is going on to the girl's pagan calendar, the 28 day lunar calendar.

Likewise when the girl comes into the Zona Norte, she can liberate herself from the solar clock and the 7 day week. She has to sleep, bathe and eat anyway. So why not just do it with the guy who just fucked her so nicely, and just let it be off the clock.

This goes way beyond Toda La Noche, as that is still tied to the solar clock. I am going to give it a name, "Love Shacking".

To me this is what it looks like the Hong Kong Bar is intended to promote. Guys come there for hooker binges, and the young girls come there for working binges. The girls know that they can keep making more money because there is no real closing time. It is just one guy after another, with napping, bathing, and eating times in between. So the girl doesn't need to pack it in until the moon reaches a certain phase and she can tell that Aunt Flo will be coming soon.

It is only going to be the younger ones without kids who will want to live like this. They have no responsibilities, nothing which ties them to the solar calendar and the 7 day week.

This is like many of the night shift girls at strip clubs. Some of them live pretty crazy lives. They love immediate OTC. I don't think it really means anything to them that it is prostitution either. To them it is just fun. If a guy wants to take them to dinner, they are going to be happy to fuck him. If guy buys them a drink, their reaction might be the same. So when they are getting heated up by their strip club job, letting a guy set up OTC with them as soon as they get off, is no big deal to them.

I believe that many of the daytime Zona street hookers probably avoid the Hong Kong Bar because they do not want to live like that. They have kids and maintaining their relationship with the kids means more to them than anything else in the world. So they are going to stay sane and sober with their time and their emotions. Anything much beyond the basic while (un ratito) would have to be pre-arranged and all on the clock. They want to show up in the mornings, reach their money target, and be out of their at their selected time. They want those kids to see them, and not to be making excuses.

Still though, I feel that they might sometimes accept a lunch offer, if there is also a second session offer right behind it. They stay sane in their emotions, but not 100% sane.

http://s15.motherlessmedia.com/dev265/0/…

These girls are more like the typical day shift strippers. They have kids. They might do OTC, but it has to be prescheduled, so really it is "escorting".

The idea of just running off with who ever wants them was what one dancer described to me as "slut mode". She doesn't do it anymore because she has discovered that her primary emotional commitment is to her kids.

So I hope to be exploring these issues more. And I hope to be reading more of your excellent posts.

SJG

B-52s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOryJvT…

National Treasure & SJG
Great read, and both of you guys show a lot of insight. I haven't posted much on this site because I don't think it's of any value unless there is something new or insightful to be said. As I said you have both put a lot of thought into what you wrote, and that is appreciated, but the part that you say is that the primary reason for dancing is to set up OTC or SD arrangements. I have been doing this for many years, and I have found many dancers were open to the idea, but the vast majority of them are only there for the money they can make inside, which usually isn't much.
I can only say that there are some pointers that I will apply in the future and see how they result.
SJG: I've found the building that NT is referencing: on Google Maps look for Rt.46 & Island Rd.. In Sat. View look NE about 4 or 5 buildings there is a farm field. The 1st building to the left of the field is the Club.

That's the place. Hit or miss and a local club I get to when in the area but I've met a number of great girls there that have led to great adventures. Also know management, two brothers and they are actually good guys, if a bit profit oriented (duh ;-)). If in the area esp. Thurs Fri Sat check it out.

The flame out from the previous episode was complete after a few more rounds of the same; more would occur, but in the interlude I was passing through a certain city in upstate NY with a one night stay over to catch an early morning flight. I decided to check the reviews before finding my hotel and after a few dances at a club ended up late at . A mediocre VIP and I was back at the bar contemplating leaving. Suddenly a strikingly cute dancer stopped and said "you and me, VIP, NOW! Sure I said and off we went. About 5 minutes into a nicely heating up dance, she paused, and said "let's go to your hotel room". Sure I said, how much? Let me think about it she said, I'll meet you at your car, which was parked across the street. As I went to leave she said how about $200? Fine I said as I headed for the car.

She came out a few minutes later and got into the car. Ok I said I have to stop at a cash machine and I haven't checked into my hotel yet so we have to find it. She was instantly suspicious; "are you a cop?" she asked - definitely no - "are you a mass murderer?"; nope, I tried to reassure her with the truth. Ok I know a cash machine (we stopped and got the cash) and together located the hotel. It turned out to be a cute little downtown boutique hotel. We got to the room and she set off exploring my luggage and the rooms amenities; having a great time with her discoveries, talking all the way through it all: wow what a great electric toothbrush - take it I said ;-). She was a delight and very cute. After a while she joined me on the bed and as I put my arms around her she snuggled up with me in the luxurious covers and pillows of the bed. She returned my first kiss with enthusiasm DFKing as I unbuttoned her top and explored her breasts; suddenly stopping to remove her clothing while demanding I do the same. So there I was at 2am; with a beautiful little naked dancer in my arms - and a 7am flight. The DFKing resumed as I explored her body, finding her very wet little slit and began to circle her clit, which resulted in even more enthusiastic DFKing. Wait she said, as she slid down my body to take me enthusiastically into her mouth delicately licking the sensitive parts while moving her hand up and down enabled by a bit of the moisturizing liquid from the little bottle she just happened to have. Now it was my turn to say "wait"! Relax baby she said as she resumed the DFKing but now using the liquid on me in amazing motions bringing me continually to the edge until she pulled out a condom, rolled it on, climbed on top of me and slid me inside of her. The feels so good she said, I haven't had sex in 6 months, I've never done this before (do all dancers say that, or only the ones telling the truth?) whereupon she began to move with me deep inside her rubbing her clit hard against me. Without the condom I would not have lasted a minute, but the condom combined with not much in and out movement just let me rock with her in unbelievable pleasure as she rubbed against me and came hard with me looking up at her and lightly squeezing her nipples. She lay on me for a few seconds and then began a deep in and out thrusting movement that in seconds brought me to an unstoppable climax and she continued to move until she climaxed again with urgency and then dropped down next to me. I enveloped her with my arms and held her, she held tight and said "I love cuddling".

We talked and laughed for a while and then she said, I was going to steal your money. What? Yes, she said I was going to grab your cash at the ATM, jump out of the car and run. Wow. But I didn't and you are so nice and that was so fun I don't want the money. Keep it. Um, no way, I said, a deal is a deal and you need it, no way I'm not giving it to you. We laughed and played until I realized I was going to be late for the flight - hey can you drive me to the airport, drop me off, put gas in the rental car and return it? Sure she said, if I can come back to the hotel and go back to sleep.

Later it hit me that it was stupid to give the rental car to a stripper I just met who told me she planned to rob me - but that's how good the connection was. But the electronic email quickly came showing she did - minus the gas fillup for which I had given her cash.

It was all a first for me and pure luck, but we had a true connection and I was determined that I would definitely see her again.

Some thoughts on the girls, working, just focused on thier kids and making money.

I love and respect all of those girls. They have a job to do and they go and do it every night. I know those girls (women), I talk to them, I buy them drinks, I tip them for time we spend together- I don't waste thier time. If for some stupid reason I lose my mind and get talked into a VIP I make advances to understand thier intentions. When I do understand I respect them and stay within them. I NEVER ask for extras; if approached I'll

For extras I'll always discuss. These women are my very good friends and I am comfortable in several clubs with them; it makes it fun and comfortable. So I don't bother those girls - I honor and respect them. I'm looking for something else. I'm looking for the girl that is NOT one of those girls for some reason or another. Newer? (Btw, sorry I don't prey in the new, not fair, but I get to know them and later there might be a connection after 45 rounds with the assholes out there). Someone who wants a good time and be treated respectfully (um unless they need to be treated differently); Someone looking for some light adventure.

When I find her sparks fly and a dangerous series of events potentially unroll

Oh, and the 17.5%. It's my joke. Of all the women out there, some % totally respond to my touch (I use 17.5%; The downside is the 82.5% who don't). Those girls always say the same thing: I love how you touch me. When a girl says that I know something amazing is about to happen.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.871216,-…

Got it! Yes, if I saw a sign like that close to the road, I would stop and go see what's up. Because it is just the head, it emphasizes hair and makeup. I do love beautiful women. I guess what it is is, I like to mess up their hair and makeup.

When these buildings get smaller and funkier, I believe that does mean that the mileage will be higher. The less the name recognition and the less land mark the location, the lower the actual value of the business itself. So there is then little reason to throttle the cash flow by worrying about pesky laws.

If the places are small enough, then they really can't even seat enough people to make a strip club workable. So in these cases it has to be straight up FS.

Also, if they are in unincorporated areas, or in incorporated areas with a very low residential population, their may just not be anyone interested in trying to enforce anything. They may just take the view that for there to be a crime there has to be a victim.

Just looking at this place in Columbia SC makes me laugh.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mr+Luc…

National Traveler, I would love to see links for those two online books you mentioned.

SJG

Led Zeppelin, Earl's Court 1975
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cZ1du-WC…

dustyshoes,

I think what NT is saying is that he is not looking for strictly professional OTC or SD arrangements. Rather, he is looking for the kinds of ambiguous situations which can occur when a dancer is just looking for adventure. These are likely to be playful and mischievous girls who have no responsibilities. They might sometimes accept payment, and sometimes they might even ask for it, but their real motivations are going to be much more complicated.

Dealing with such girls could result in some real drama, and sometimes some real trouble. But as their motives are so complicated and open ended that even they don't really know what they are doing, the sex will always be mind blowing. But dealing with these girls could end up being more costly than it would be to deal with those more professional escorts who keep their emotional lives sane.

Now of course when dealing with these adventure seeking girls, it usually will not be possible to repeat a mind blowing sexual experience with them. If you call them up a month or two later, they might want nothing to do with you, as they are not seeking an SD and they are not professional escorts. What ever you are going to do with them will have to be just that night.

Maybe if you are able to see them repeatedly in the days which follow, and if you want this and if you want to build an ongoing relationship with them, then that might work. When you meet one of these girls she is probably on her up slope. That is, her period has recently ended and her hormone level is getting higher every day. She may already be at her peak level and ovulating. But you don't know. So if you want to make more of the situation and are able to invest the time and energy, then just keep nailing her night after night. It is irrationality on the part of both parties which started this relationship in the first place. So fucking her brains out night after night will compound this. You cannot depend on her for reliable contraception because even she does not know what her motives are. Your actions in conjunction with her rising hormone level will just keep her head spinning. Then you will be able to tell when she is clearly past her summit.

Record everything exactly as it happens on the calendar, as you need to track women this way, in exactly the way they track themselves. Then if you have put that much energy into the situation, I believe she will still want to be seeing you after she goes through her system reset.


NationalTraveler

Just a bit more about the 19yo from Stage Dolls. There were times when she did not want to see you and was telling you not to call her. I think she was just not ready to try and form a serious relationship with you. A relationship with an older man would be something very different for her. I know you mentioned something about her making $750 per week via escorting. But she was clearly not conducting herself like a professional escort. So again, her motives were more complex.

It may be that when she was clearly just taking money off of you that she was doing it to toy with you and to protect her own emotions. When she was telling you not to call her, it may just have been that she felt that their should be some ethical limits. She may just have felt that it was not right to keep taking money off of you.

You wrote:

"If for some stupid reason I lose my mind and get talked into a VIP I make advances to understand thier intentions. When I do understand I respect them and stay within them. I NEVER ask for extras; if approached I'll "

Now I had been thinking about the day shift of Tijuana Zona Norte street hookers, and especially those who wear school girl uniforms. My feeling is that this uniform is intended to convey a message. They are not just saying that they are hookers. They are saying that they are a particular type of hooker. They are single mothers and they keep regular hours. When they leave the zona they look just like other women. They do not sport stripper hair. They can be seen by their neighbors and they can go to events at their children's schools. They are saying that they lead clean and sober lives and that they keep their emotional lives sane. But then along with this they are also saying that they deliver quality and reliable service and they don't cause you problems.

If I am understanding you then, you are saying that you don't like to end up in the VIP room with women who conduct themselves this way. That is, they may offer all manner of extras, and even FS-ITC or OTC, but they still keep their feet on the ground and so though they may be very sweet about it, it is business.

Interesting. This is a complicated field.

Now about this strikingly cute NY girl. They get preferential attention and treatment when they are like this. They can be bratty and spoiled, and they play to this.

The times I have seen dancers do assertive things, and things that in Sunnyvale CA are way over the rules, it is usually about setting up OTC before closing time. But this does not mean that it is strictly business.

They work there and they are supposed to get a whole room full of guys heated up. If they are doing a halfway decent job, then they are also getting themselves heated up. So they need some culmination to this themselves. So usually it is the night shift girls who will run off with a guy to a motel room. The day shift girls work days specifically because they want to work regular hours.

So when she said "You and me VIP now!" she was taking a gambit that that would work. I take it it was very close to the 2AM closing time, so that there never was an issue of her leaving early, or you your having to entertain her until closing.

Likewise do we know what happened to her car, or if she even had one? Did she leave it in the SC parking lot all night, and would that have been okay?

5 min in VIP could be quite a bit if she is getting into two way touching with you, and especially if she is getting her nipples into your mouth and DFKing. If she can see that she can interact with you this way, then she can tell that time in a motel will be great.

You mentioned her bottle of moisturizer. She would not have had much on her person, as you had undressed her. But obviously she knew where that was. I assume that this was mostly for HJ's, and that she would have been using it for VIP room extras. Maybe the condoms too?

About the girl on top grinding. I like to keep the pressure light in either daty or pubic bone grinding. If you ramp the pressure up to get more effect, then she will only be responding to that higher pressure level. So you will be causing soreness and unnecessary roughness. But in this case she was doing it hard herself.

That is okay because she knows her own responses. In both men and women, the more DIY they do, the more the know their own responses, and this is important.

This one I would assume is riding guys frequently, in one situation or another. It may just be in that VIP room.

Sex workers like to use girl on top positions because it keeps them in charge, and they do know their own responses so they know how to do it to get the results they want.

Now if I understand your excellent narrative correctly she then must have lowered her head and torso close to you, and then began motions which were like the counter point to thrusting. That was an expert move and it got the result she wanted.

I often like to let girls ride until they come as they want, and then myself get them to lower down like that. Then I will hold them by their hips, and though with difficulty, engage in such thrusting myself. It isn't supposed to be a big deal, it is just one of many positions to be used.

So she says she has not had sex in 6 months. Hard to know. Maybe she does guys in the VIP room and doesn't count that as sex. That would be interesting to consider.

But about "never doing this", I think she may be being truthful. When you asked her how much, that may have created the biggest risk of blowing it apart. If you are really going with her, then you shouldn't be afraid and so you shouldn't need to ask. Likewise, though the VIP room costs money, there had been nothing she had said which would have indicated that her suggestion about the motel room meant P4P. So she could have taken the money offer as an insult.

Background for future discussion about male and female orgasm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic…

Please do continue to elucidate us with you most intriguing and expertly written accounts.

TO BE CONTINUED

SJG

B52's Rock Lobster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4QSYx4w…

Yep that's the place, read nj reviews but was afraid to go in. Finally I stopped in and now you know the rest of the story. Here is a link to "strip club seduction which gives you the idea. As you can see from the first chapter that is in the link it is all about OTC. Take it with a grain of salt but I've internalized at lot if what he says which is basically don't be the normal schlep, handle yourself properly in the club man up, take the lead - women want that (truely truly they do - it's not that they like bad boys it's that the like firm leadership so that they can feel swept away and don't feel like they decided anything - it just happened).

http://www.tsbmag.com/2011/09/22/strip-c…

On the NY club girl. Good point on asking how much / my problem was I had no cash so had to know if I needed to make that stop and I would have to do it with her - quickly. Yes I think she had the bottle for use in the club. It was very late which is another tactic I'll tell about. They were actually my condoms which I pulled out in advance. I will tell another story about this girl, but the topline is that 3 months later I got together with her for four days (including picking her up and driving her 4 hours, she was scared to death) and it was about the best 4 days of my life (and maybe hers). When we arrived at 1am she said "I want to dance for you" rearranged the room put on music candles and placed a chair and started lap dancing clothed in an hours long strip and seduction fantasy evolving naked to the bed and mind blowing sex. Now almost two years later she is a constant texting companion asking me when I'm coming to visit her. Also I have taken many girls up on "extras" when offered including numerous instances of full out sex in VIP; but I don't seek it out but hey, I'm weak and it was always late.

I also have a pay policy. These girls are working hard for one thing - cash. I ALWAYS pay them for their time, one way or the other, when they stay away from the club to see me. I don't want to ever cost a girl money. It would be unseemly ;-)

Oh, her car. Her sister was driving her and was always on call for the needed ride. It was her sister who met her at the rental car place and dropped her back at the hotel to go back to sleep.

Here is an example of my learning from MACK Tactics. One time I met a girl in a club in Atl at the beginning of this odyssey. In the first naked but no mileage VIP she asked me out to go to a great steak place she knew. I met her, we had a nice time but I got a hug and a gotta go in the parking lot. After reading MACK Tactics i realized that for my entire life I had not had the faintest idea of how to do a first date correctly, I had always done just about everything horribly wrong. I swore i would get a rematch and try out the tactics. I finally got her to go out again. I did the date almost exactly how the book says. This time I had a laughing dancer in my arms within the first 20 minutes. She was having such a good time that midway through she said "hey I know a great place to go dancing". Off we went, where I continued down the MACK path. I had a beautiful woman on my arm and we were the center of attention at the club, she was laughing and happy. On the way out the other guys were high fiveing and fist bumping me out to the parking lot (um not my usual night, but for the first time I learned how to put that kind of a night together). When we got back to the hotel, I followed the Tactics and quickly had her in my room and on the bed at 2AM. At that point I knew i could do that date with similar results anytime. That night she stopped me cold when i went to kiss her "I know the steps of dating", she said, "and we are not at this step yet". Which I thought was hysterical, but i didn't care because the point had been to do the date right and get her to my bed as an experiment with the approach (this was the first girl I ever saw outside of a club and maybe my second VIP) - i wasn't that focused on actually having sex with her - and BTW I never did even though I went out with her many times and we are still friends. Might have been because of that fiance of hers I later became friends with :-).

I have taken numerous dancers out on that first date and it is always the same, no matter what the premise I can convert that awkward first date start into a comfortable, fun, sensual, over the top evening, with the girl happily on my arm, almost certainly ending up back in my room. That is how much that reading did for me in just one example. Im not selling MACK Tactics, trust me, but it changed my life because it taught me how to properly handle women and the more I practiced on strippers, the more I got.

Having a hard time keeping up with all the TUSCL discussions.

Here I talk about the importance of getting dancers DFKing with you, and about how you can try to do this in the main room. Mostly it is about getting them completely off of script and of taking the relationship into a different place from the very start.

https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

I also float the idea that these strippers who do girl on top FS-ITC may not even consider that as sex. I think NT's narrative of his encounter with this NY girl may reveal that to us.

There is zero surrender in it. The girl is just performing for you, rather than surrendering to you and letting you perform for her.

I'll be back to post more here soon though.

SJG

Starting to get back to this thread.

I've read this most interesting article NT posted:
Deflecting the Lap Dance
http://www.tsbmag.com/2011/09/22/strip-c…

I don't know if I would try and go this far, but I do agree that lap dances are a sucker game. Makes no difference if it is mutual or two way touching, or if it is dry humping, or if it is "extras" ( HJ / BJ ). Strippers have even learned to do a kind of dissociated FS, which I call "extras"-FS. As far as I am concerned, it is all a sucker game.

But, I would not go as far as this author suggests, in totally declining all lap dances, I just deflect them and reduce them. You have to do some of them just to show the girl that you like her and that you are not broke or cheap. Mostly it is just to flatter her and to show her that she is your favorite and to give her something to talk to the others about. But this doesn't mean you need to go to her SC very often, like maybe just once or twice.

I used to go to this place in San Mateo, Club Ante ( tragically now closed and the building torn down ). They had a VIP Room. What could happen varied. But whatever it would be, it was not going to be an escort or OTC grade of GFE-FS. So to partake was just to flatter the girl.

Now officially this place was strictly no touching. But I did have one dancer sit on my lap. To deflect the dance offers I would first ask the girl how long to her stage set. I would promise to sit at her stage, which of course means tipping. I like interacting with them when they are on stage. It was also a delaying tactic. I would then try to redirect them to talking instead. I would leave the possibility of a dance open for later.

At this place in San Jose ( T's, closed now and no great loss in my humble opinion ) they did air dances from standing on little coffee tables in the VIP Room. I had paid dancers the full rate just to sit and talk with me. At first it was in the VIP Room, but then later I just had them do it in the front room.

In other places where there are no rules, and if it was a girl I wanted, I would try to get her to sit on my lap and see if I can get her to start making out with me.

This has been talked about much here on TUSCL now. As I see it, this is the supreme test of whether the girl is being open to you:

Jestrite50
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

And then as far as these "extras" dances in the clubs, I have deflected to DATY, because I wanted to have an effect on the dancer. It worked very well.

Here Abalegonz posts twice about clit licking, if he wants to go out with the girl:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=2…

My own experience was that if I was available to be going out with these girls, it probably would have worked out.

If on the other hand, I was just a guy they could get money out of by offering to make me cum, I don't think it would have worked out that way. I don't think I would have made a very good impression on them. But with me offering to pay money to demonstrate my skill in making her cum, it did make a big impression on her.

So while a do agree with the basic idea of the article, I would not try and take it as far as that author wants to.

Lately this sort of topic has been debated with Mr. LDK and his TUSCL supporters:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…

In patronizing these strip clubs I set limits for myself, in part because I was married. More than sexual gratification I was looking to learn how to interact with women, and to see if it always had to be the way it was between my wife and I. I needed to socially experiment to see if life could be different. So I spent as much time talking to pretty girls as possible.

Yes, this was a sort of infidelity, but I kept it within limits and I always saw it as a temporary arrangement.

I know that many who frequent strip clubs are married, and we get to hear from some of them on TUSCL. I do find many, though not all off them, to be creeps. It's okay though, because they aren't fooling the strippers. And they are making it easier for me, someone who is straight in his dealings, to go over well with the same strippers when I start showing up at their favorite clubs.

Thanks to NT for starting this excellent thread, and I want to help continue it.

Maybe we can persuade Founder to let Articles be viewed by date of last comment, as it is no possible to view Discussions.

SJG

Otis Redding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynqOJRQL9…