tuscl

A safer environment

Monday, August 18, 2008 7:42 PM
THIS STORY TAKEN FROM YASHOO NEWS COURTESY OF REUTERS: Fri Aug 15, 3:33 PM ET HOUSTON (Reuters) - A Texas school district will let teachers bring guns to class this fall, the district's superintendent said on Friday, in what experts said appeared to be a first in the United States. The board of the small rural Harrold Independent School District unanimously approved the plan and parents have not objected, said the district's superintendent, David Thweatt. School experts backed Thweatt's claim that Harrold, a system of about 110 students 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth, may be the first to let teachers bring guns to the classroom. Thweatt said it is a matter of safety. "We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" he said. "It's just common sense." Teachers who wish to bring guns will have to be certified to carry a concealed handgun in Texas and get crisis training and permission from school officials, he said. Recent school shootings in the United States have prompted some calls for school officials to allow students and teachers to carry legally concealed weapons into classrooms. The U.S. Congress once barred guns at schools nationwide, but the U.S. Supreme Court struck the law down, although state and local communities could adopt their own laws. Texas bars guns at schools without the school's permission. (Reporting by Jim Forsyth in San Antonio; writing by Bruce Nichols in Houston, editing by Vicki Allen) ******************************************************** I was wondering what you all would think of this? Now what do you think about bars and clubs letting their staff carry? This may be the beginning of a peaceful future.

69 comments

  • jimhalsted
    •
    16 years ago
    Parody - do you have any data to suggest that more people carrying guns results in less violence? Intuitively, it may seem that it would be so, but I cannot think of a single place or time when this was really true. Maybe it is, but having some factual information to back it up would be nice.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    Here is what the Arizona CCW Permit web site has to say: [view link] CONCEALED CARRY Facts & Statistics Today, there are only 5 states that do not have a right-to-carry system. States with right-to-carry laws have lower overall violent crime rates, compared to states without right-to-carry laws. In states whose laws respect the citizen's right-to-carry guns for self defense the total violent crime is 13% lower, homicide is 3% lower, robbery is 26% lower and aggravated assault is 7% lower. (Data: Crime in the United States 1996, FBI Uniform Crime Reports) Right-to-carry license holders are more law-abiding than the general public. In Florida, for example, the firearm crime rate among license holders, annually averaging only several crimes per 100,000 licensees, is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. Since the carry law went into effect in 1987, less than 0.02% of Florida carry permits have been revoked because of gun crimes committed by license holders. (Florida Dept. of State) Research reports printed in "More Guns, Less Crime", John R. Lott, Jr., the John M. Olin Visiting Law and Economics Fellow at the University of Chicago, examined data ranging from gun ownership polls to FBI crime rate data for each of the nation's 3.045 counties over a 1977 too 1994 time span. Lott's research amounts to the largest data set that has ever been put together for any study of crime, let alone for the study of gun control. Among Prof. Lott's findings: • While arrest and conviction rates being the most important factors influencing crime.... non discretionary concealed-handgun laws are also important, and they are the most cost-effective means of reducing crime. • Non discretionary or "shall-issue" carry permit laws reduce violent crime for two reasons. They reduce the number of attempted crimes because criminals can't tell which potential victims are armed, being able to defend themselves. Secondly, victims who do have guns are in a much better position to defend themselves. Concealed carry laws deter crime because they increase the criminal's risk of doing business. • States with the largest increases in gun ownership also have the largest decreases in violent crime. And, it is high crime, urban areas, and neighborhoods with large minority populations that experience the greatest reductions in violent crime when law-abiding citizens are allowed to carry concealed handguns. • There is a strong relationship between the number of law-abiding citizens with permits and the crime rate--as more people obtain permits there is a greater decline in violent crime rates. • For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3%, rape by 2% and robberies by more than 2%. • Murder rates decline when either more women or more men carry concealed handguns, but the effect is especially pronounced for women. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about three to four times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduces the rate for men. • The benefits of concealed handguns are not limited to those who carry them. Others get a free ride from the crime fighting efforts of their fellow citizens. • The benefits of right-to-carry are not limited to people who share the characteristics of those who carry the guns. The most obvious example of this "halo" effect, is the drop in murders of children following the adoption of non discretionary laws. Arming older people not only may provide direct protection to these children, but also causes criminals to leave the area. • The increased presence of concealed handguns "does not raise the number of accidental deaths or suicides from handguns." ****************************************************************** There are a lot of places to find stats, including FBI crime statistics reports. The bottom line is we are in fact safer as an armed society.
  • shadowcat
    •
    16 years ago
    Of course he doesn't. His post was just to be informative. I don't have any guns and have not for the last 30+years. I used to have two shot guns for small hunting. I got rid of them when I started having a family. I did not want to risk an accident at home. Recently some air lines have allowed their pilots to carry guns. I can't say that I blame them for wanting to carry but one recently one shot himself in the leg while flying an airplane full of passengers. Safe? I guess that it really depends on the security of where you live. I have no problem in leaving my doors unlocked.I am lucky.
  • jimhalsted
    •
    16 years ago
    I had not heard of that research, so I looked it up. Interesting stuff both in support and opposition of the book: [view link]
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    A story that many, if not most, never heard from the American press: "An armed student at Jerusalem’s Mercaz Haray seminary played a crucial role in stopping a gun-wielding terrorist Thursday, but the American press is downplaying his heroism because it proves that armed students can stop campus gunmen, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms said today. Yitzhak Dadon, 40, was described as “a private citizen who had a gun license and was able to shoot the gunman with his pistol” by reporter Etgar Lefkovitz with the Jerusalem Post. However, many news agencies in the United States are downplaying Dadon’s decisive role in the incident. “Yitzhak Dadon is a hero,” said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb, “and he is living proof that armed students have a place on college campuses. Thankfully, his quick action was reported by the international press, including Mr. Lefkovitz, so unlike incidents here in the United States where the press was able to completely ignore the actions of armed students or teachers, the truth about this incident will not be suppressed. “Mr. Dadon is not going to become a victim of this conspiracy of silence,” Gottlieb continued. “Elitist American college administrators, the national press, nor anti-gun politicians can sweep this incident under their rug.” Internationally published reports say Dadon studies at the yeshiva, and had his pistol when the shooting erupted. When the gunman emerged from a library, Dadon reportedly shot him twice in the head. The gunman was subsequently shot by the off-duty soldier. “Yitzhak Dadon’s apparently well-placed bullets interrupted a rampage,” Gottlieb said. “What a pity that someone like Mr. Dadon was not in class last April at Virginia Tech. What a tragedy that anti-gun extremism would keep him from attending class at Northern Illinois University. He would never be allowed to teach at Columbine High School, hold a job at Trolley Square in Salt Lake City, or go shopping at Omaha’s Westroads Mall. “America’s acquiescence to anti-gun hysteria has led to one tragedy after another,” Gottlieb stated. “This disastrous policy has given us nothing but broken hearts and body counts, and it’s got to end. The heroism of an armed Israeli seminary student halfway across the world sends a message that we needn’t submit to murder in victim disarmament zones. That’s why his actions are getting such short shrift from America’s press. It’s a story they are loathe to report because it affirms a philosophy of self-reliance that they despise.” -END- I only heard of this story because a local radio host mentioned the part, "The gunman was subsequently shot by the off-duty soldier.", and attributed the saving of more lives to the soldier, not the one that first ended his killing spree. I had often carried my licensed weapon into strip clubs, but only into ones that knew me. Never had a problem and have never been searched.
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    This could really only happen in TX...let the shootouts in the lunch room begin! How fitting that a true return to the Old West mentality would start in TX. Letting pilots have guns on commercial flights was just another knee-jerk reaction in the wake of 9/11. Just lock the doors and fly the damn plane tyvm... If a country was more safe based on the maximum number of guns that it had, the USA would be the safest place in the world...but it isn't. I would think that the Arizona CCW Permit people wouldn't be the most unbiased source for info on this issue...lol... Lott is just another Right-wing gun nut.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    "This could really only happen in TX...let the shootouts in the lunch room begin!" -- The instructor that ran the class where I got my CCW permit is a High School teacher from Minn. He, two other teachers and the principal are armed at the school. They also have a plan between the four of them incase something bad ever happens at their school. Nothing wrong with being prepared.
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    Florida leads, and has lead the way, in Second Amendment rights. When "Right To Carry" was passed, the MG of the world said we would have gunfights in the streets. Never happened. When the "Castle Doctrine" was passed, again, gunfights in the street. Again, never happened. MG, Nice try on equating gun population with safety! What you missed, and LIKELY on purpose, like most, is a funny thing. CRIMINALS do not obey laws, and they have guns!!! DUH!
  • how
    •
    16 years ago
    If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns...
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    Sort of like after Columbine. The anti gun crowd wanted more gun laws. That CRIMINALS only broke 22 laws as it was. I wonder what the proper number of laws would be needed before criminals behave themselves? 30, 40, 50, 100...
  • mr.munchie
    •
    16 years ago
    MisterGuy, actually Lott's study was funded by an anti-gun group (which he was a member of) who were VERY unhappy with the results.
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    "Nice try on equating gun population with safety!" clubber, you really are never going to get a clue are you?? What part of "A safer environment" do you not understand?? While they are at it down there in FL, why don't they lift the restriction of murder too?? I mean...murderers don't obey those laws either... Lott is a Right-wing hack mr.munchie...read up on him & see for yourself.
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    MG, We agree! You state, "I mean...murderers don't obey those laws either... ". That is so true, but now, if someone attempts to murder ME, well you get the picture. On second thought, you wouldn't!
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    That's the point clubber...you're irrational fear that someone is going to try and murder you is why you own a gun in the first place. Without that fear...you don't need a gun. While FL is at it, they can just get rid of all those laws that pertain to stealing as well...that should save them a heck of lot of money in enforcement!
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    MisterGuy, If you and the other doubters want a real time example of the benefits of gun ownership all you need to do is watch what happens in Washington DC. The Supreme Court has ruled that the DC handgun ban is unconstitutional. Now that the law abiding citizens have had their rights restored the violent crime there will take a nose dive. Less rape, murder and home invasion… Sounds like a no brainer to me.
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    Why wait for the future...just look at the past. Murder rates are already down dramatically since the early 1990s in D.C.. Flint MI, St. Louis, Detroit, Memphis, Orlando, Miami, Little Rock, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Cleveland, Nashville, St. Petersburg, and Springfield MO (all in concealed carry states BTW) all have higher violent crime rates than D.C. does right now. It also doesn't seem like everyone that wants to own a gun in D.C. is having their way just yet.
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    MG, Inaccurate and biased "stats", the bible of all the anti-gun nuts! Sort of like there were 30,000 gun deaths in the US in 2004, often used my the anti-gun fools. Of course the vast majority were suicides, and criminals killed. But then the 30,000 is a much better figure for the anti-gun wacko's!
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    "Inaccurate and biased 'stats'"... from those "anti-gun fools" at the FBI: [view link]. "Of course the vast majority were suicides, and criminals killed." No, just suicides actually, but keep right on spinning there you fear-filled gun nut...lol...
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    Mister Guy, What is this fear you keep talking about?
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    Fear is key in both "conservatism" in this country in general and in the extreme pro-gun nuts. The fact is that the chances that any one of us will fall victim to a violent crime (where a gun *may* come in handy) are extremely low. You want to go hunting? Fine...there are plenty of weapons out there that are inappropriate for hunting purposes. Have a job where you need a gun? Great...no one has a problem with that. Want to have a gun so that you can "defend" yourself from your own govt.? Sorry, you're crazy...the govt. can come and take you out whenever it wants to.
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    And stupidity is key in both "liberalism/socialism" and those on the left. The fact is, if you really want liberal "help" there are plenty of places you can go live. Want freedom? Great, stay here. Want "liberalism/socialism" to work? Check your history. Never has, never will!
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    You still did not define this big fear.
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    More nonsense from you clubber...what a surprise. The USA is a mixed economy, which is the best performing type of economy the world over. Your freedom = "free market" nonsense is the real fantasy here. As I'm pretty sure that I've said elsewhere before, "conservatives" do not feel that the nature of man is generally good, and liberals do feel that the nature of man is generally good. For this basic reason, man (and especially groups of men acting together, through their govt. or whatnot) is something to be feared. These "conservative" people feel very strongly that they need things like guns to protect their "freedom" from their fellow man or, worse yet, the boogeyman.
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    MG, What a laugh!!! You state, ""conservatives" do not feel that the nature of man is generally good, and liberals do feel that the nature of man is generally good." Are you nuts? Rhetorical question! Conservatives see nothing but good in man. They KNOW that anyone has the opportunity to do whatever they wish, and that they can obtain that, IF they WORK at it. liberals believe that everyone needs the government to help, guide, and control them, ergo, the multitude of worthless "programs". Never mind the result, just look at the intent, a liberal mantra! In an earlier post you mention an FBI report. Of course this had exactly NOTHING to do with what I mentioned. Recently, the New England Journal Of Medicine published at article by Dr. Garen Wintemute entitled, "Guns, Fear, the Constitution, and the Public's Health." He stated that in 2005, 30,694 (sort of like the same "30,000" I mentioned above) people died from gunshot wounds. The most recent statistical data from the CDC lists US firearm-related homicides at 11,250 and firearm related suicides at 16,603. Of course these are complete unrelated problems, but as I stated, the anti gun nuts "bias" the stats by including both in their menace. Next time, try not to show your ignorance by following the liberal comic book of "ideas" and "facts". Until then, have a good life and I pray (is that allowed in your make believe world?) that you do not come under attack by some gun (or any other weapon) wielding CRIMINAL!
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    "Conservatives see nothing but good in man." Do some reading on what A LOT of prominent "conservatives" have said on this subject and you'll learn different. They talk all the talk about the "wisdom of the ages" and the "true nature of man"...it isn't rosy stuff... "liberals believe that everyone needs the government to help, guide, and control them, ergo, the multitude of worthless 'programs'." More nonsense and no facts...I wouldn't expect any more from the likes of you clubber...lol... "Of course this had exactly NOTHING to do with what I mentioned." Yes, it did...you're the one that tried to say that the stats that I was quoting were "Inaccurate and biased". Nice to know that you think people committing suicide is basically a good thing..."nothing to see here...move along!". BTW, the doc that wrote that article made it *entirely clear* what the gun death numbers were and how they were broken up by category. "Americans have purchased millions of guns, predominantly handguns, believing that having a gun at home makes them safer. In fact, handgun purchasers substantially increase their risk of a violent death. This increase begins the moment the gun is acquired" "Living in a home where there are guns increases the risk of homicide by 40 to 170% and the risk of suicide by 90 to 460%." "Gun ownership and gun violence rise and fall together." "Permissive policies regarding carrying guns have not reduced crime rates, and permissive states generally have higher rates of gun-related deaths than others do" Afraid of the truth as well?? "pray (is that allowed in your make believe world?)" Praying to a completely imaginary figure that supposively lives in the sky is what YOUR "make believe world" is all about...LOL! The fact is that the chances of me or you coming "under attack by some gun (or any other weapon) wielding CRIMINAL" are extremely small...have fun living in continued fear of something that will never happen clubber...you prove my point very nicely!
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    MisterGuy, I am trying very hard to keep this discussion friendly because in general I like a lot of the things you say. But your statement is complete BULLSHIT! “The fact is that the chances of me or you coming "under attack by some gun (or any other weapon) wielding CRIMINAL" are extremely small...have fun living in continued fear of something that will never happen clubber...you prove my point very nicely!” Did you just pull this little tidbit out of your ass? You are so wrong. In fact one could say that thinking like this could end up with you being dead wrong. Here is a true story for those of you who have buried your heads in the sand and don’t believe that anything bad can ever happen to them. My younger sister’s college roommate was walking along Clark Street on the North side of Chicago on her way to meet some friends. (They were both students of the University of Chicago in Hyde Park.) Now we all like twenty year old college girls. No one would have any animosity towards this girl except maybe for Shadowcat. (He hates women as a matter of principal.) Anyway she wasn’t in a notoriously bad neighborhood yet some animal was able to grab her, pull her into a doorway and torture her. She was not sexually assaulted but this man beat the shit out of her and cut her face up with a utility razor. Fortunately she lived through this, but she will never be the same. The police were of no help to her. All they could do is take a complaint after the fact. Eventually this guy was caught. He is mentally ill and had done this exact same thing several times. Now maybe things would have been different for her if she had been allowed to defend herself with deadly force. She did fight back. She had the defensive cuts on her hands and arms to show for it. I blame idiots like Mayor Daley and all of the other pussies who think that self defense cannot be left to the individual. MisterGuy you should have to look into the one eye that she has that can still see and tell her the chances of these things happening are so small that it is really foolish to worry about them. I’d love to hear what she has to say to that. Most of the time my world view is fairly optimistic. I think the world can be a great place full of potential. But I am not unrealistic. I can also see a dark side to humanity. This isn’t fear; it is more of an understanding that in the end you have a certain responsibility to take care of yourself and your loved ones. Sometimes this involves doing things that we find distasteful. I take no pleasure in knowing that I have the potential to harm or kill another human being. The sad reality is that someday I may be called upon by circumstance to do just that. If and when that time comes I will be ready. I will not hide in the corner cowering like a beaten dog.
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    MG, Reason, facts, and logic, just do not work with liberals. That said, again, have a good life and I pray (is that allowed in your make believe world?) that you do not come under attack by some gun (or any other weapon) wielding CRIMINAL! BTW, would you please tell me how you KNOW, for a FACT (since you seem to thing you know them all) that God is a "...completely imaginary figure that supposively (supposedly, DUH!) lives in the sky ..."? Of course, you can not do this, but I wish to see how you try!
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    parodyman, One other thing you might have mentioned to MG. He says, "have fun living in continued fear of something that will never happen ...". We KNOW, IN FACT, that "something" DOES happen, as your story indicates. I don't care if the chance is .1%, I do not wish to be in that .1% group. It would really make be happy knowing I couldn't protect myself because nothing happened to the other 99.9%. Sure it would! MG is one of the close minded liberals that can not think for themselves. I truly see no reason to even try to explain anything to him on this subject. I mean, he even still, after I proved my fact and that it had nothing to do with the FBI stats he mentioned, he STILL stated, "Yes, it did...you're the one that tried to say that the stats that I was quoting were "Inaccurate and biased"." Since I had said "Inaccurate and biased "stats", the bible of all the anti-gun nuts!", and didn't mention anything about him, I guess he IS admitting that he is an "anti-gun NUT".
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    Sadly the nuttiness on his part is quite clear.
  • Dougster
    •
    16 years ago
    parody's fear goes to back to when he was a retarded little child growing up in his racist home town. He wishes he had had a firearm so he could have fought off the Archie Bunker like flag wavers who ended up raping him. Too this day, parody still lives in fear that they will return, and keep a loaded gun under his pillow just in case.
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    The statistics on the chances of one (man or woman) being a victim of a violent crime are very clear p-man. If you want to live in fear based on what's happened to a few others, then fine...but don't turn this country back into the Old West in the process. "I can also see a dark side to humanity." "I will not hide in the corner cowering like a beaten dog." This is exactly the kind of fear-based mentality that I have been talking about. Why did you need me to explain it to you in the first place?? "after I proved my fact and that it had nothing to do with the FBI stats he mentioned" Keep trying to backtrack on that one clubber...the record is quite clear on what you were trying to say. "Reason, facts, and logic, just do not work with liberals." Nice bit of projection there clubber...consdiering you have little in the way of "facts" to back up your own postions. Once again, I accept your unconditional surrender you old fool.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    MisterGuy, What you mistake for fear is simply prudence. Why do you keep going on about the old west? That will not happen. If you think the world is a nice happy place 24/7/365 then you are a fool and no one can help you.
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    MG, As parodyman stated, you are beyond help, it seems. As for my facts, they are just that, nothing more. And yes, they do back up my position. It is liberals that have to manipulate and twist them to fit their cause. So in any case, enjoy your life in your make believe world. I've wasted more than enough time on your likes. Oh, and by the way, before you type it, yes you win and I just ran away from my argument with a dimwit!
  • Dougster
    •
    16 years ago
    Go easy on him, clubber. MG has a very limited set of tricks. "projection", "backtracking", "unconditional surrender"... blah, blah, blah... Sounds like a broken record. You're to just ignore the idiot.
  • arbeeguy
    •
    16 years ago
    Name calling never solves anything. MisterGuy obviously has a different slant on things, but that doesn't make him an idiot or a dimwit. If we are trying to have a serious discussion about a VERY serious subject, name-calling and disparaging ("a limited set of tricks" etc. doesn't advance the discussion. Facts can be interpreted in different ways. It is called "spin".
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    I'm not calling him names. I feel he is being short-sighted and very close-minded on this subject. I have tried in earnest to get him to see reason. It just isn't happening for him.
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    "What you mistake for fear is simply prudence." No, it's blind, over-emotional, and irrational behavior. Let's say that you are really screwed and are a black person in the USA. In 2005, 27 out of 1,000 black Americans became the victim of a violent crime, compared to 20 out of every 1,000 white Americans. This means that black Americans were overall 26% more likely to sustain a violent crime. The likelihood of being murdered is drastically higher for black Americans. In 2004, black Americans constituted roughly 13.4% of the general population, yet, nearly half (49%) of all murder victims in 2005 were black. These stats are from the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics & the Census Bureau. Facts are facts, period. There simply isn't a very good chance at all of falling victim to a violent crime. Fear is used very, very effectively in this country to control people unfortunately. I simply refuse to bend to irrational fears. You can't be so naive to bring up a topic like guns in the USA and not expect their to be differing views on the subject. If you want to hear things that only you agree with, then I suggest going to a gun-nut website and spouting off. "Reason"...LOL!!
  • Dougster
    •
    16 years ago
    arbeeguy: We aren't calling MG an idiot because of his stance on this particular issue. Indeed, there are intelligent people on who take opposite stances on both sides of this issue. There are many reasons we call MG an idiot. One is that he cannot do basic math: "In 2005, 27 out of 1,000 black Americans became the victim of a violent crime, compared to 20 out of every 1,000 white Americans. This means that black Americans were overall 26% more likely to sustain a violent crime. " Ooops! 20 * 1.35 = 27, so it's 35% more likely. (If it was 40 versus 20 we would say blacks were twice or 100% more likely, not 50% more likely according MG math, right?)
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    Ooopps indeed troll...the source that I copied some of the above info from had the math wrong. I'll try and get them to correct it. Black Americans are, infact, 35% more likely to sustain a violent crime in the USA. Of course, the point remains that violent crime rates are so low in the USA that it makes no sense, IMO, to fear them.
  • Dougster
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    16 years ago
    MG: "Ooopps indeed" Sure, try and blame someone else troll-girl. Either you are just trying to pass off the blame for your bad math to someone else or it's evidence that you blindly cut and paste without thinking or double checking your "facts". Just one of the many reasons why we call you "idiot".
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    MisterGuy, I have no issue with differing opinions. If you do not wish to own a gun then that is your business. My problem comes in when you tell me that no one should own a firearm. Try respecting my opinion if you want me to respect yours. Having witnessed violence on more than one occasion I can tell you that your "it won't happen to me" theory is sadly childlike. You need to grow up a little and join the rest of the world.
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    parodyman, You should know by now that liberals like MG, KNOW what is right for everyone, but of course, it doesn't apply to themselves. IE: Rosie and her bodyguard's GUN. Also, MG DOES have a problem with differing opinions, since his is, of course the proper and correct one, IE: liberal. And, once again, We know, in fact, as Mg points out, that "something" DOES happen. I don't care if the chance is .1%, or whatever other incorrect numbers he comes up with, I do not wish to be in that .1% group. It would really make be happy knowing I couldn't protect myself because nothing happened to the other 99.9%.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    Clubber, Mayor Daley of Chicago who cries all the time how he will not rest until guns are eliminated has armed body guards. Sickening...
  • shadowcat
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    16 years ago
    I don't own a gun. haven't felt the need. In the 21+ years that I have lived here there has never been a violent crime. Yes there has been some bank robberies. All caught within 24 hours. A few burglaries. A few GTA's and some statutory rapes and some some drug busts. I had to be taken out of here 5 years ago by paramedics. I was able to crawl to the door. Since then I always sleep with my door unlocked. My neighbors have told me that we have to look out for each other. My uncle, A cop, told me that if I ever had to shoot an intruder to make sure that he fell inside the house. I I hope that I never have to heed his advice.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    More of that Southern backward logic in action: “I don't own a gun.” – Nothing wrong with that. That is your personal choice. Besides the shaky hands of the elderly can be dangerous. “haven't felt the need.” – Everyone must assess their own situation. “In the 21+ years that I have lived here there has never been a violent crime.” Never? Can you honestly say there is no unreported domestic abuse or rape? How do you know? “Yes there has been some bank robberies. All caught within 24 hours.” -- They aren’t exactly criminal masterminds down South now are they? “A few burglaries. A few GTA's and some statutory rapes and some some drug busts.” – That is acceptable to you? “I had to be taken out of here 5 years ago by paramedics.” – Damn psych holds only last for 72 hours. “I was able to crawl to the door.” – And you claim alcohol isn’t a problem in your life? “Since then I always sleep with my door unlocked.—Many Alzheimer’s patients do. “My neighbors have told me that we have to look out for each other.” – Could be dangerous driving around with those white sheets over your heads. “My uncle, A cop, told me that if I ever had to shoot an intruder to make sure that he fell inside the house.” – Does your uncle own a rug cleaning business on the side? “I hope that I never have to heed his advice.” – Kind of hard for you to do anything with his “advice” because you chose not to own a gun.
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    One test of how self-defense oriented you are is whether you believe stripclubs should allow customers and others to carry guns. I wouldn't have a problem with a heavily armed club, but my strong feeling is that the club would be less safe. I was talking with a dancer at Coco's this Sunday afternoon and she said Take One (on NW 79th Avenue) had a shoot-out where people were injured or killed. (Coco's was dead business wise for the dancers with most customers not buying any dances.) I haven't had the opportunity to check out Take One as of late, but the shooting is irrelevant to whether I visit or not. An even more extreme example where you are on a self-defense scale is allowing gun toting by customers at stadium events such as football or basketball. Yes? No?
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    In Florida, concealed weapons permits prohibit carry in a stadium. It is very specific as to were, other than one area. I have been told conflicting "law" by law enforcement officers. As a matter of fact, I just recently wrote my representatives in the Florida legislature to clear up this discrepincy. Will they? I doubt it. I think that what I've heard from those I've asked, is that it really depends on who is enforcing THEIR idea of the law, then the court would have to decide.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    There is a web site that keeps an up to date database on gun laws. Try: [view link]
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    "(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; . . . " [view link] If prohibiting guns from stadium events for most people is a good idea, then perhaps the same thinking should extend to other public areas? You know the old thinking criminals don't obey laws so why keep law abiding people from protecting themselves at stadium events? I mean even if the risk is only .1% wouldn't it be better to allow the general public to defend themselves? Those who are more concerned about protecting the "entertainers" should remember NO GUTS, NO GLORY. Anyway, YES to more stripclubs and heavily armed stripclubs. :)
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country #1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people #2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people #3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people #4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people #5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people #6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people #7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people #8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people #9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people #10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people #11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people #12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people #13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people #14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people #15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people #16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people #17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people #18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people #19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people #20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people #21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people #22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people #23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people #24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people [view link] Are you willing to trade the right to self-defense via a gun for greater community and individual safety? Unfortunately, I think the pro-government gun grabbers have a very strong point as far as the safety issue goes. True, the murder rates above are NOT limited to murder by guns, however, one argument of gun rights advocates is that murder will take place regardless of whether a person uses a gun or another instrument. Well, I'm not too smitten by that point because guns are very convenient---and killing with them is generally easier than by other methods; convenience and ease should equal more killings. Hopefully, imo, if guns were grabbed a cheap easy effective means of killing would take its place sorta like the government's drug war spurring innovation because the profits are so high. But, *generally* there isn't a profit in killing---yes, life insurance and inheritance and war, etc. I also note that two countries high on the list for murders can thank the U.S. Government's Drug War; Columbia and Mexico. And, probably a third and fourth; Jamaica and Venezuela. Also, of interesting note is that the countries high on the list aren't "developed" countries. Heck, the U.K. is down at number 46! And, it is my understanding that the U.K. has some of the strictest NO tolerance gun laws i.e. gun prohibition. Well, you might think more prisons would solve the problem. You know the old nonsense about locking the "criminals" up: "The United States has less than 5 percent of the world's population. But it has almost a quarter of the world's prisoners." [view link] If this the idea of "freedom" you were dodging bullets for shadowcat? Surprisingly, the U.S. suicide rate isn't near the top of the list; that's probably thanks to drug abuse and drug use, imho.
  • shadowcat
    •
    16 years ago
    PM, I knew the moment that I hit the enter button that what I said would bring out your flame. First off all the advice from my uncle was over 40 years ago, when I did have guns. I am not totally defenseless. I have a machete in my bed room. I bought it at a hardware store in Guadalajara, Mexico some 30+ years ago. It is part of a Mexican ensemble but it is as sharp as a razor.
  • MisterGuy
    •
    16 years ago
    Thanks for admitting that you're really Bobby-boy "Dougster"...lol...you'll be completely irrelevant in a matter of a very short period of time. "My problem comes in when you tell me that no one should own a firearm." Ummmm...when did I ever say that?? Oh yea, it was never...common-sense gun laws allow for responsible, reasonable gun ownership. If you're looking to own any kind of gun for any purpose at any time or place, then the USA isn't the place for you because our laws simply don't allow for that. "You need to grow up a little and join the rest of the world." I really don't think so p-man...I AM grown-up because I don't let fear rule my life tyvm. "Rosie and her bodyguard's GUN." LOL...once again old fool...you need to learn to read. I've already said that if your job involves needing to own a gun that you have nothing to worry about. "I don't care if the chance is .1%, or whatever other incorrect numbers he comes up with, I do not wish to be in that .1% group. It would really make be happy knowing I couldn't protect myself because nothing happened to the other 99.9%." LOL...too bad that the chances of a violent crime happening to you are around *an order of magnitude* less than ".1%". I wouldn't expect you to know what that means though...keep saying the same thing over & over again clubber...I'm sure it will quell your irrational fear of the boogeyman someday. Who wants to lock more people up merely for gun violations?? The reason that we have more people in jail than anyone else in the world is our stupid "War on Drugs". "Despite the recent decline in the murder rate in the United States, it is still about four times that of many nations in Western Europe."
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    "Who wants to lock more people up merely for gun violations??" In prison state America? Hell, people get locked up for less than that.
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    One agenda that I wish the gun grabbers would adopt is mandatory insurance for gun owners---start out reasonably and then ratchet it up. You know to make sure they're financially "responsible." Just think: Mandatory insurance for cars because it is such a deadly threat, but where is the mandatory insurance for gun owners? This nasty country needs to get busy with more laws.
  • Dougster
    •
    16 years ago
    MG: "In 2005, 27 out of 1,000 black Americans became the victim of a violent crime, compared to 20 out of every 1,000 white Americans." So according to MG's "facts" that's 2.7% for blacks and 2.0% for whites. However, MG then contradicts his own "facts" a little later: MG: "...too bad that the chances of a violent crime happening to you are around *an order of magnitude* less than '.1%'. I wouldn't expect you to know what that means though..." Looks MG is the one who doesn't know what "an order of magnitude" means. Just one of the many reasons we call MG an "idiot".
  • Clubber
    •
    16 years ago
    Dougster, Over two days ago, I let it be known that I was finished wasting my time trying to speak logically and factually with MG. Yet this idiot keeps on yapping to me! What a mindless fool.
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country #24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people #46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people [view link] I would think those nations, especially "developed" nations, with strict gun control laws have far fewer murders than nations where everyone and his brother has a gun. If gun ownership is all about fear of violent crime, then it seems like giving up the right of self-defense with a gun is a small price to pay for greater "public safety" and along with that comes greater individual safety. It won't happen over night most likely, but think of the children and their wonderful "gun free" future. The law and order crowd seems like it should be clamoring for a gun ban for ordinary citizens as well as turning the U.S. military into even more of a domestic police force. Yes, at the altar of "public safety" a gun ban for ordinary citizens should be as popular as apple pie. And, perhaps redeploy police lap dance buyers at the local stripclubs into security details with high visibility to discourage violent crime in residential neighborhoods.
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    One twisted liberalism is that an individual shouldn't cooperate with the police when he or she is under suspicion of having committed a crime. Innocence or guilt are irrelevant because an individual just shouldn't trust the governments' police. However, individuals should be eager to give up their guns because the police/government will protect them. So police/government get the thumbs down for protecting the innocent individual under suspicion of having committed a crime, but then the police/government get the thumbs up when it comes to grabbing guns of ordinary people. Seems strange that liberals realize the police can't be trusted to protect the accused, but then want those same police to have an effective monopoly on guns.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    “PM, I knew the moment that I hit the enter button that what I said would bring out your flame.” -- How could you be so lonely with so many “followers?” One would think that if shadowcat were to shake his dick Shrekitout, Bobbyl and snowball would fall off and scurry around like the crab lice that they are. “First off all the advice from my uncle was over 40 years ago, when I did have guns.” -- This has relevance how? “I am not totally defenseless.” -- Your mental acuity says otherwise. “I have a machete in my bed room.” -- Used for intimidating those SC prostitutes into giving you the senior discount? “I bought it at a hardware store in Guadalajara, Mexico some 30+ years ago.” – All by yourself? You are the king of TUSCL! “It is part of a Mexican ensemble but it is as sharp as a razor.” – You run around your neighborhood dressed like Poncho Villa? Brandishing a 30+ year old machete no less; I bet your next ensemble has sleeves that tie in the back. Now as far as it being sharp as a razor, I bet that the machete is more like it’s owner; dull, rusty and uncared for. Just for educational purposes a real machete is NEVER anywhere near razor sharp. They are generally made from a spring steel (think automotive leaf springs) and ground with a utility edge of about twenty degrees. It is more of a farming tool than a weapon. But if it makes you feel safe…
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    "A woman later told the police she saw a black man rushing up Vernon Street, 'zipping up his jacket as he went,' according to the Chronicle. Police inspector Gus Coreris told reporters it was definitely a Zebra shooting from the .32 caliber cartridge casings left at the scene. Shields, described by friends as a charming and kindhearted young man who had a habit of taking in stray dogs, died some 3,000 miles away from home. His father, stung by grief, would go on to establish Handgun Control Inc." [view link] Interestingly, the story of the Zebra killers starts with a machete attack. [view link] Of course, the first Zebra attack sounds much different than subsequent shooting spree.
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." [view link] If safety from violent crime is the real fear, then getting rid of the 4th Amendment *completely* should be a priority. Yes, generally if the police unlawfully bust into an individual's home and illegally collect evidence of crime the court wont apply the exclusionary rule. But, that doesn't mean the 4th Amendment is innocent of creating environments where crime can fester and spread and jeopardize public safety. President Clinton, understood how radical (his word) the 4th Amendment was and he proudly and gleefully stood by welfare moms who wanted the government conducting regular searches of people's homes to increase public safety and thus their individual safety. Remember in the liberal's mind the government is your friend so naturally you want to cooperate with its crime fighting. In fact, non-cooperation should be a crime. Just imagine how much safer the nation would be with regular expanded government sweeps looking for criminals or evidence of crime. Take a bite out of crime!
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    It is funny as a lawyer President Clinton would probably advise the individual regardless of innocence to NOT cooperate with the police where he or she is a suspect. Yet, when it comes to searches of people's homes suddenly the Welcome Mat is prominently displayed and cooperation with the police is essential for public safety as well as individual safety. Actually, cooperation with the police might be your best bet for interrogation or search. Yes, I'm sure there are more than a few horror stories of cooperating with police in good faith . . . but, does non-cooperation yield better results? A stripper at The Trap wanted to cooperate with the police shortly after 911 so when asked for permission to search her purse she complied. Couldn't believe it when the police officer actually arrested her for half a joint. If she hadn't cooperated, then she could have avoided arrest??? Do you have to cooperate with the police as far as identifying yourself? Yes, according to the U.S. Supreme Court. [view link]
  • shadowcat
    •
    16 years ago
    PM. I did not purchase it as a weapon. I purchased it as a curiosity and farm tool. My ex wife's father, who was a dirt farmer in Mexico, taught be how to sharpen it with a sand stone. Have you ever sharpened a knife, axe. maul or anything else that needed sharpening? DREMEL!My machete is as sharp as any kitchen knife that I have.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    “PM.” Yes? What can I help you with today?“ I did not purchase it as a weapon.”— Did you not say “I am not totally defenseless.” In reference to your machete? “I purchased it as a curiosity and farm tool.” -- Do you do a lot of farming in your bedroom? That is where you claim to keep this mighty self defense weapon. “My ex wife's father, who was a dirt farmer in Mexico, taught be how to sharpen it with a sand stone.” – Well I can’t speak about what he may or may not have taught you but by changing the angle of the grind on a machete you lessen all of its positive attributes. Now it will never perform the way it was intended. “Have you ever sharpened a knife, axe. maul or anything else that needed sharpening?” – Yes I have. “DREMEL!” – Please do not use a Dremel or other motorized tool to sharpen blades. It will destroy a good steel. They remove too much material from the blade and also weaken it by generating heat in the cutting process. You should only hand-sharpen cutlery unless you have some manner of oil cooling bath to keep from ruining the heat treatment. “My machete is as sharp as any kitchen knife that I have.” – That doesn’t speak well of your kitchen cutlery which is a whole other subject.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    SHARPENING A MACHETE: The general consensus among the more knowledgeable posters on blade forums is to use a FILE. The steel in a machete is soft enough that just about anything will work. And because it's relatively soft, there isn't the same advantage to trying to achieve a very high level of sharpness like there is with a knife. Plus using a file or coarse abrasive gives a toothier edge that grabs better and cuts quite well in the typical sweeping-chopping type action used to clear brush or do most work for which a machete is appropriate. A belt sander with the proper compounds is another alternative but most agree that the file is the way to go.
  • jablake
    •
    16 years ago
    "Broward Circuit Judge Jeffrey Streitfeld has approved a final settlement giving $1,000 to anyone strip-searched after arrests on minor crimes like trespassing, public drunkenness and loitering between December 1998 and October 2007. Those charged with felonies or violent crime are not eligible. At least 14,000 people have been sent letters saying they may have been wrongly subjected to the searches in the Broward County jail, according to court records. Lawyers estimate about 10 percent, or 1,400, will respond before the Sept. 1 deadline, attorney Kevin Kulik said Tuesday. If that figure holds, the county and its insurance carriers will shell out about $1.4 million, plus an additional $2.5 million for Kulik and attorney Gerald Richman of West Palm Beach. Lawyers for the plaintiffs and the county had originally estimated the payout could reach $11 million. At an April hearing, Streitfeld said the complexity of the case and its length—more than five years —made the attorney fees appropriate. 'It's not unusual in cases like this for the attorneys to make more than all the plaintiffs [combined],' Kulik said. 'It is a lot of money, but this has gone on for years [since 2002] and we've done a lot of work. The lawyers fees are part of the punishment.'" [view link] Well, strip searches is one way of making a safer environment. With new tech officers in the near future might even be able to a strip search people as they walk down the street. I was surprised this "complex" case took only five years and change. And, the lawyers' fees were "reasonable."
  • shadowcat
    •
    16 years ago
    PM: I do use a file on my kitchen knives and up until a few years ago on my saw chains. I now farm that out to ACE hardware. I do not do lawn mower blades. Uneven blades can cause vibrations and cause a lot of grief. A cannot imagine using a file on a 15 lb maul or other garden tools. Grind them until they become useless and then replace them. They are cheap.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    Your poor kitchen cutlery. Depending on the blade style and the grind method you could be destroying good knives. I'd take them to a good dealer (food prep supply) and see if they can be saved.
  • parodyman-->
    •
    16 years ago
    I wonder which is sharper; his wit or his tools...
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