Society seems to send the message that stripping is demeaning/exploitive to/of women.
However, isn't it actually empowering to have an outlet for women to use their sexuality to make money?
Perhaps the industry is actually exploiting men, by enticing us to give up our money to watch women shake their asses on a stage, knowing that we are pigs?
ex·ploi·ta·tion /ˌekˌsploiˈtāSH(ə)n/ noun 1. the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work. "the exploitation of migrant workers"
It depends - if the woman is doing it of her own free will it’s not exploitation. If she’s doing it because she has no other options to put a roof over her head, it might be because you’re taking advantage of her distress. Then you have to address the root cause - why can’t she put a roof over her head doing something else?
forget about the bitches that always seek something to whine and hate about. strippers are being exploited. and so are the women as well in asia, europe and south america, where the men travel all the way to there to indulge or simply want to meet someone for a long term relationship that doesn't have the spoiled and self entitled attitudes of these western value complainers.
my current fave - probably did some sort of 9-5 job making barely enough to pay off meals and bills. eventually she found out she could make real good $$$ by becoming a stripper. she's been at it for over a decade now. what she has to show for it is she owns two properties in her homeland and one here in the states. she could have became one of those complainers when she was working 9-5 but eventually made something out of stripping i'm sure she wasn't thrilled about in the beginning of that career.
For women, being low-thirst generally gives them power over high-thirst men. With or without stripping.
Slut shaming, aside from being dumb, is exploitation because it applies much more to women than to men. With or without stripping.
You shouldn't have the same attitude with a stripper as you would with somebody trying to sell you their used bike at a garage sale. It feels vulnerable to be naked, and be touched by lots of strangers, especially if they're larger and stronger than you. You have to be mildly affectionate, but not needy, to keep her stress at a reasonable level. You can call that not exploiting, but it's more to the point to call it not being a shit stain.
I prefer clubs where the strippers have relatively good working conditions. If we all do this, that will help reduce exploitation.
Poverty is a complicated issue. We're afraid to even raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Very few strippers would quit for a $15 an hour job. Exploitation is a big factor in poverty. A stripper who's exploited because she'd be poor if she didn't strip, would still be exploited if she was a poor person who didn't strip.
Being exploited is in the eye of the beholder, I say if it’s a choice it’s not exploitation
Depends on the person, and their degree of agency. Someone who does it of their own volition, regardless of how their circumstances might lead to that choice, isn't being exploited. Someone who is being forced to do it by another person has no agency and is being exploited.
@funonthaside
I will play along and comment on your discussion and answer your questions.
Q: Stripping - Exploitation or Empowerment?
A: It is Exploitation by definition: Ex·ploi·ta·tion /ˌekˌsploiˈtāSH(ə)n/ noun
It is not empowerment by definition: Em·pow·er·ment /imˈpouərmənt/ noun
It is the “American Way” of some people profiting by victimizing millions of vulnerable people from countries around the world.
The key words are fair and unfair to make things FAIR we can see how fair trade works:
“How Fairtrade Works Every person deserves to have the resources they need to live a safe, sustainable, healthy life where they get to choose their own path.
Unfair trade makes this impossible for the farmers and workers that grow products Americans enjoy every day.
That’s why we start with trade because it strikes at the heart of wealth inequality.”
An old tradition of dividing up a kill by two hunters in a “fair” way: One hunter divides the meat into two piles and a second hunter—with his back turned—indicates which pile he wants.
This method motivates the first hunter to divide the spoils as evenly as possible.
In modern civilizations this tradition of dividing fairly the product of work has been lost to the cunning and venal capitalist masters.
“Our civilization is being sacrificed for the opportunity of a very small number of people to continue making enormous amounts of money.
Our biosphere is being sacrificed so that rich people in countries like mine can live in luxury. It is the sufferings of the many which pay for the luxuries of the few.”
“It is the sufferings of the many which pay for the luxuries of the few.”
~ Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg ~ Born: 3rd January 2003 Stockholm, Sweden ~ Occupation: Student, environmental activist
~ Awards: ~ Fritt Ord Award (2019) ~ Rachel Carson Prize (2019) ~ Ambassador of Conscience Award (2019) ~ Right Livelihood Award (2019) ~ International Children's Peace Prize (2019) ~ Time Person of the Year (2019) ~ Gulbenkian Prize for Humanity (2020)
UNDENIABLE EXPLOITATION
You’re an undeniable weirdo
@gmd the point where someone is "forced" is not clear. You could say suicide is always an option. It's a moral/political issue, the level of options we feel like everyone has a right to, in order to be considered free.
@twentyfive
The Undeniably Facts Just Make Way Too Much Sense for You?
As in everything, there’s a Bell Curve of strippers on the exploitation/empowerment continuum. I live in SoCal where there’s lots of job opportunities, but very high costs. And there’s lots of clubs. So most strippers have choices. Choice and volition are the antithesis of exploitation. Never mistake choices to grab for the brass ring as a sign of “exploitation” that’s personal choice (stupid as it may turn out).
Now, massage girls imported from China with no English and no money, shuffled between the parlors where they live in the back room with no car? That curve skews toward exploitation, IMO.
And ilbb, are you saying society “owes” individuals “good choices”? Isn’t it the pursuit of happiness, not the achievement of happiness, that’s promised? Guaranteeing results for free will users is the ultimate slippery slope.
@CJKunt You’re an undeniable failure
@RA in 1776, protection by the government from enslavement was somehow not considered necessary to guarantee the right to pursue happiness. It took a bloody civil war to change that, which most now regard as a good thing.
I said it's an open issue what guarantees society should provide. Anyone who says they know for sure what will work best is either foolish, or is speaking in bad faith.
There's a lot of exploitation in stripping, it's strippers exploiting men. Because we are naturally wired to seek women of child-bearing age who we haven't already done a dozen times, we are vulnerable. We see a hottie who appears to be available and our dicks get hard. Women are wired to not have sex with random guys, but to save it for a man who is committed to a relationship with them. Men exploit women by telling them "I love you", "you're the only one", then dumping them after fucking them.
@blues good analogy with boxing. But I'm pretty sure it' s the case that a strippers odds of being killed by a customer are higher than a boxers odds of being killed in the ring.
I hope no woman is forced by threat to be a stripper. Other than that, how/why she became a stripper and why I give her my patronage is academic. And remember this, a stripper can make a WELL above average living just working stage and LDs (average salary for age 25-34 is 54k). Show up to work, play the fantasy part, go home, live a normal life but with less extras that extra money provides. And It’s her choice to go even further to earn even more and/or seek the bigger adrenaline rush (both things I’ve seen first hand). 25-34 uneducated woman can do about 40k full time at Walmart. Go do the normal life if displaying your feminine sexuality is a problem for you. It’s that simple.
@blues I don' t haves stats. I feel like I hear more news accounts of strippers being killed by a stalking customer, than accounts of boxers dying in the ring. I've heard many stories from favs of dancers getting roughed up in VIP. It's common for dancers to get bitten by customers. At one club, a dancer got in a good punch after a PL bit her. The manager just banned him from the club, didn't want to deal with calling the cops. Then she got yelled at for defending herself instead of calling the bouncer.
Boxing is inherently more dangerous, think it through the intent is to pummel an opponent into submission, while some may like submissive strippers, that is never acceptable as an intentional act, the reason why more women get harmed in strip clubs its obvious when there is a problem chances are the man is stronger and the person intentionally committing an offensive action, is more prepared to be and act dangerously.
sure there is an element of danger regarding otc for the girls. what about the guys? if i was say in colombia and i brought up one of those girls that hangs around outside a whole day standing against a wall i would have to worry about getting scopalamined to a deep state of unconsciousness. then she'll text her crew to show up and help empty out my airbnb room of all my belongings. they might even carve my liver out. but then again the response would be hey he's a pervy guy-he got what he deserved.
This kind of reminds me of the argument that professional and college athletes are being exploited
I would argue that stripping is both empowering and exploitative. As much as this board loves and focuses on extras, that is not most stripping. A lot of it is teasing a man and taking his money.
At the same time the economic conditions that lead to stripping are arguably exploitative.
^^^ precisely correct bluesandbabes It is not economic conditions, it is the lust for quicker bigger money (that we all have to a degree). There’s lots of job openings but you’ll put in 40 or more hours, it’ll likely be mundane, low prestige, and you’ll start at 40k to 45k. Or you can work 9pm to 2am 4 nights a week wearing only panties but pull in 80k. One is boring and you live a more basic existence. One is certainty not boring but has negative connotations (and pitfalls if not careful) affording you a better car, home, clothes — and that’s not counting ITC or OTC extras.
@blues I was only making a comparison with boxers in regards to likelihood of occupation-related death. As to whether strippers or cops have to deal with more occupation-related violent confrontations, I don't think that's clear. It's only clear who has the advantage of being armed with a gun and a taser.
Most people are exploited, at least to some degree. When sex workers are singled out as exploited, it's usually with the agenda of criminalizing the customers. Because, if someone is voluntarily exploited, that inherently proves they are not competent to make their own choices and trade-offs. These types sometimes go as far as to argue for criminalizing the sex workers, because it will be for their own good if they're deterred from doing it. Or so they can be rescued...by jail.
Don't any of the dancer members want to comment?
I was talking to a dancer recently about her multiple sugar daddies. She seemed proud of the fact that she’s got multiple guys paying to spend time with her, and without sex! She says she charges them thousands because she can. They know what they’re doing so what’s wrong with it? Who’s exploiting who???
It can be exploration but where I go it’s a two way street. She’s using me for cash. I’m using her for entertainment. She knows how to dress to get my attention. She knows what will instantly sell me. I know that contracting her quickly so she doesn’t waste a lot of time and tipping her will make her treat me as a priority when I walk in the door. That quick attention makes me tip her more. That big tip makes her come over quicker. We’re both exploiting each other for our own benefit. That doesn’t mean we don’t like or respect each other. To the contrary we know we need each other however toxic it may be.
The undeniable fact is that to exploit someone is to take unfair advantage of them.
It is to use another people’s vulnerability for one’s own benefit.
The sort of exploitation involved in coercive sex trafficking, coercive tactics against women and minorities all over the United States and areas of its influence is undeniable harmful.
The term “empowerment” is just another name for slave mentality; A person who is forced by the capitalist system to become subservient to the capitalist class of exploiters in exchange for basic needs food and shelter…
The “worker/slave” undeniably remains a prisoner and is not truly free…
THE UNDENIABLE REALITY:
“It is the sufferings of the many which pay for the luxuries of the few.”
~ Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg ~ Born: 3rd January 2003 Stockholm, Sweden ~ Occupation: Student, environmental activist
~ Awards: ~ Fritt Ord Award (2019) ~ Rachel Carson Prize (2019) ~ Ambassador of Conscience Award (2019) ~ Right Livelihood Award (2019) ~ International Children's Peace Prize (2019) ~ Time Person of the Year (2019) ~ Gulbenkian Prize for Humanity (2020)
Ahhh yes, the continuing quest to pigeonhole everyone and everything,
No matter how educated, talented, or cool you believe you are, how you exploit people ultimately tells all...
I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about women who choose stripping over other "more legitimate" appearance based jobs like bottle service girls or even waitressing. My favorite could survive financially as a waitress, but taking her clothes off and sucking dick let's her take 6-10 international vacations a year. So shee doing sex work for luxury, not to survive.
Again, when volition and choice come in the door, “exploitation” goes out the window. A Marxist mindset/orthodoxy views everything from the perspective of who’s exploiting who. It has its place as an analytic tool, but ultimately it’s too limited & simplistic, and too easy to manipulate to reach a desired result. Slavery? No one chose it. Stripping? Maybe one in a thousand is coerced, but most simply choose it over the alternatives (as discussed by many above). Maybe some bleeding hearts can spin “I had no other choice that would allow me to buy this Fendi purse” into a tale of exploitation, but cmon man.
The Undeniable Truth is that Genocide, Slavery, Coerced Labour, and the Development of Industrial Capitalism are the history/legacy of England/USA exploitation of people in the world for centuries until today…
^^
Whoa there, cowboy. Let’s not single out the UK / America as the primary perpetrators of slavery.
Slavery dates back to ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt and more
Muslims have enslaved exponentially more people than any American for more than half the years of AD civilization
^^^^^^^^ Two wrongs, or multiple, countless wrongs, don't make a right.
^ hey jerk off, your statement was
“ history/legacy of England/USA exploitation of people in the world for centuries until today”
He pointed out that your statement is nothing more than anti US propaganda, you’re a phony and a liar
@twentyfive
The Undeniably Facts Just Make Way Too Much Sense for You Don’t They?
^ undeniably a troll
@twentyfive
FYI Slavery by any name is Slavery…
“There is no single globally agreed definition of modern slavery, but most definitions are adapted from the 1956 UN Supplementary Convention on the Abolition of Slavery.
Modern slavery is an umbrella term that encompasses crimes of human trafficking, forced labor, debt bondage, forced child labor, forced marriage, and commercial sexual exploitation.
Although not defined by law, it refers to situations of exploitation that a person cannot refuse or leave because of threats, violence, coercion, deception, and/or abuse of power.”
@skibum609 & @twentyfive
You’re not supposed to be so blind with religious belief, patriotism, racism, arrogance that you can’t face reality.
Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it, who does it neither where or when it is said or done…
It is not Pathetic Losers exploiting Strippers or Strippers exploiting Pathetic Losers.
“More like 0.1% of regular ass humans tricking the rest of us into fighting among ourselves while they rob us blind.”
~ SanchoRG, Texas ~ Nov, 2021
@CJKunt
Facts are stubborn things and if you scroll up you’ll find your claim that The United States, and England are responsible for exploitation and slavery, yet both of those problems predate both countries by a millennia or more.
That’s the problem you are dishonest and your point is greatly diminished by not just your dishonesty, as well as your arrogance in making blanket statements that you very well know don’t apply to the people you are speaking to.
You son are as guilty as anyone here of exploitation and abuse of women despite your protestations to the contrary, you are quite abusive and refuse to admit that anyone with a point other than your own has validity.
I’m finished feeding trolls you are a joke and you’ve used up all of the time I’m willing to spend on you
I leave you with some genuine advice, get a life, the one you’re living is nothing but a fantasy.
“and they'll go to ridiculous lengths like claiming that slavery in ancient Egypt somehow makes modern day slavery and sex trafficking booay”
—
Icee has the reading comprehension of a first grader.
CJK explicitly said the US and UK are responsible for slavery. I was merely pointing out historical facts. You somehow made the leap that I am supporting trafficking. You are fucking moron.
OK Big Mac, suppose you succeed in convincing all use punters that we need to change our evil ways. That means sex workers no longer have an income. I see you have zero reviews, so presumably you've never actually listened to what a sex worker has to say about her occupation. Do some reading, tuscl.net , then come back and explain to us why she deserves to be considered an exploited hooker. Also, explain to us why the US and the UK and Imperial Japan being responsible for slavery, requires that her income be cut off.
^ he’d never do that it’d be the end of his income as well You do realize that this is new iteration of an old troll icee loco
It used to be empowering for me, but lately it has been a huge waste of time and energy. And it has been eating away at my self esteem (only one club is and it's because of the girls who work there and how they are and treat others).
@BM, for you, it would be a step up morally if you bought womens' bodies. You feel entitled to decide what they should do with their own bodies. But you don't even feel obliged to pay them to control their bodies.
In any case, sex workers do not sell their bodies. The enemies of freedom always have to make up lies about what people are doing with their freedom.
@twentyfive
“Don’t be surprised. There is nothing new under the sun. Only endless repackagings”
~ John Piper
Our Founding Fathers did not invent the American system of government out of thin air. They were influenced by their British heritage.
The colonists were British until the so-called American Revolution.
We the people of USA need to desacralize the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Amendments; to expose popular myths about the so-called founding fathers who were slave owners genocidal killers of natives, massacring women and children.
We the people of the USA should help create a better world with justice for all, were it is fundamental that justice should be the same, in substance and availability, without regard to color of the skin, nationality, economic or social status.
“I don't get why some of you are so butthurt about the truth.”
~IceyLoco ~May 25th 2020
@BY have you ever tried sugaring websites? Have you considered escorting through p411.com ?
I've been with more than 30 escorts. I know I didn't throw their bodies away, or take them to Goodwill. I don't have enough closet space for them to all be at the back of my closets. I just checked under my couch cushions, not there either.
Nobody is doing any job because they love their freedom. But, people do want the freedom to decide for themselves what occupation is best for them. You are free to believe whatever you like. I don't have to believe all FS sex workers are addicts or otherwise incompetent to make their own choices, just because you pulled that "fact" out of your ass.
Stripping is clearly exploitation if the individual is being sex trafficked, pimped, blackmailed, coerced, or otherwise being made to work as a stripper against her will. Strippers can also be exploited by unscrupulous owners, managers, house mothers, or elder strippers if she is being made or asked to pay outrageous house fees or tip-outs without knowledge that these payments are significantly higher or not being asked of more experienced dancers.
Is it empowering? According to Wikipedia, it actually is: "Empowerment is the degree of autonomy and self-determination in people and in communities. This enables them to represent their interests in a responsible and self-determined way, acting on their own authority. It is the process of becoming stronger and more confident, especially in controlling one's life and claiming one's rights. Empowerment as action refers both to the process of self-empowerment and to professional support of people, which enables them to overcome their sense of powerlessness and lack of influence, and to recognize and use their resources." In simpler terms, stripping brings easy, tax-free money. If a dancer is smart, she invests that money in a college degree, a house, savings, stocks, and bonds, and her personal growth. If she is unwise, she invests it in drugs, a flashy car, and her loser boyfriend. Whether or not dancing is empowering is of the dancer recognizes that money provides her with options, and she utilizes those options to bring herself greater fulfillment and attain her life goals. That's what discretionary income: it's options. Options can be empowering if you choose well and employ them wisely.
So there is a middle ground where it is neither. If a dancer does not use the money from stripping to provide herself with more options and greater autonomy, then she is stuck in a grind. This is true of any career. A Burger King fry cook can be empowered, exploited, or stuck in a grind. Any entry-level analyst at Morgan Stanley can be any of those three. America does not have a caste system (although we do have a ruling class- but I don't want this to get political), and everyone has access to free education, lifestyle options, and wealth-building tools. Not everyone chooses this hard road, this road less-travelled. But it will make all the difference.
@BM I can believe that any woman who would associate with you, without getting paid, is not competent to make her own decisions. So we're really not in disagreement.
Where does one subscribe to the Icee newsletter?
@BM at least I only go so far as ridicule. You are a fire hose of vile accusations that have no real justification. Your idiotically repeating how right you are, and how everyone knows you're right, doesn't turn your opinionated beliefs into facts.
The Fallacy of “Empowerment” in Capitalist America evolved from Slavery and is Being a Servant/Slave Leader… This is typical slavery mentality.
”Master-morality values power, nobility, and independence: it stands “beyond good and evil.”
Slave-morality values sympathy, kindness, and humility and is regarded by Nietzsche as “herd-morality.”
Slave and Master Morality (From Chapter IX of Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil, (1844-1900)
CJKentTroll has at last revealed his true identity: Ibram X. Kendi!!
^^^^^^^ “I don't get why some of you are so butthurt about the truth.”
~IceyLoco ~May 25th 2020
:D
^^^
Quoting someone who’s been banned 3 times from this unmoderated site says tells me everything I need to know about you.
^^^^^^^ The Undeniably Facts Just Make Way Too Much Sense for You Don’t They?
No matter how educated, talented, or cool you believe you are, how you exploit people ultimately tells all...
^ What a dopey fuck
^^^^^^^ “I don't get why some of you are so butthurt about the truth.”
~IceyLoco ~May 25th 2020
:D
I Think It's All Hype. Strip Clubs Go Way Back & Still Keepin' The Strip Club Tradition. ✔️ 💲 😛
I like this topic. I think its neither. I never knew a dancer who put that kind of thought into it. Its not easy money but its fast money. Most girls I know just think of it as trapping. The club is the trap.
Personally I think fast money is as addictive as any substance. That said it all takes a toll on them just as any other addiction does. And it opens them up to exploitation.
You can blame the me too bullshit and the mentally unstable, self hating butches in the rainbow mob for the exploitation angle. These broads in the club have a gold mine between their legs and if they are smart enough to provide good service for a good price, they'll make a killing. That's not exploitation but rather jealousy possessed by those who don't have what men want.