Should sex work be decriminalized? or is legalization the better route

I feel like decriminalization would be the “baby steps”. In the same way that civil unions came before gay marriage. Or medical marijuana came before recreational.

Decriminalization is the larger cessation of regulation.

Legalization means some kind of licensing, for someone. And that has always posed its own problems.

SJG

This is one of those things both ways has it pros and cons and either way it wouldn't probably be in the favor of the sex worker

None of the legalization advocates have ever endorsed the Nevada model.

In times past they used to endorse the Netherlands model. That involves licensing the women, and mandatory health exams. But it does have its problems. For one thing, these licenses are a public record, and most women do not want this. So they decline to seek a license. Then they get busted for not having a license. So then, since a conviction would create a public record, they are will accept the chance to have the charges dropped just by paying a double license fee.

Most of the women who go into this believe that it will be very temporary.

And then since they have to deal with cops, who are mostly male, there are still problems.


Now Mexico clearly has a licensing and legalization approach. Only legal in some places.

Seems to work, but there are also critics.

I've looked at some of this paper, and it does seem interesting.
https://www.anthropologymatters.com/inde…

And then some raise the issue, why should the women be licensed, and required to have health exams, but not the men?

Today, most of the proponents seem to want just total decriminalization. Not sure if they could still have place restrictions or any kind of health exams.

Lawsuit in CA, trying to lift all criminalization as a First Amendment Right. This is after all the only reason we even have topless and nude dancing today.

Most of the advocates want this now.

SJG


Steely Dan Any World (That I'm Welcome To) w/ nice piano bass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I_3oxmL…

Legalized but regulated in my opinion. Not regulated in a heavy handed way but enough to keep track of.

^^^^^ So where this has been done, there have still be problems.

Would the women have to have licenses and health checks?

And where would this new legalized industry operate?

SJG

Push to overhaul sex-work laws hinges on a central question: Who counts as a victim?, Nov 1, 2021
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/art…

As the governor weighs a bill to decriminalize loitering for the purposes of prostitution, Jane says objections to such efforts often driven by exaggerations about the extent of trafficking in the industry.

SACRAMENTO — Efforts to protect both victims of human trafficking and people who engage in sex work willingly are increasingly hinging on a fundamental question: When is the act of trading sex for money truly voluntary?

In recent years, California lawmakers have taken up a handful of measures to ease enforcement targeting sex workers as they weigh the effects of decades-old laws criminalizing the industry. The debate could ultimately put the state on a path to decriminalize sex work.

She said resistance to decriminalizing sex work is often driven by exaggerations about the extent of trafficking in the industry, and those who unfairly seek to portray her and other workers in the trade as unwitting victims.

“What are we being forced with? Maybe poverty,” TS Jane said. “I love what I’m doing. Really, any job is how you’re selling your body. It’s the way that you see it.”

Debates over the issue have been defined by two diametrically opposed arguments about the extent to which prostitution is consensual. On one side, many anti-trafficking groups have suggested most, if not the vast majority, of people who trade sexual acts for money are coerced or the victims of trafficking.

Meanwhile, many sex workers themselves and civil liberties advocates say that the vast majority of sex work is performed by consenting adults and that criminalization can actually exacerbate human trafficking.

SJG

Gabriela Gunčíková - Whitesnake - Fool For Your Loving - cover - Ken Tamplin Vocal Academy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL2XTrxu…

Decrimilizing it simply makes it where the provider doesn't get in trouble for it but loopholes can be created for or against it. Legalizing it allows the government to tax it. I don't think "Christian" America as a whole wants to be seen making profit off of women's bodies.....or people in general. At least not outright anymore.

Decriminalizing means that all prohibitions are lifted. Very Simple.

SJG

The goal of decriminalization is to replace jails and arrests with social services to help prostitutes. It's not a free for all for p4p.

American legalization would be based on the nevada model as thats the only precedent

No, that is not why sex workers want decriminalization. They do not want social services or "help", and they absolutely do not want the NV model.

A long time ago people used to look to the Amsterdam model, but no more. And no one has every suggested the NV model.

The want the law out of their hair, totally.

They want consenting adults to be able to do what they want.

This has been considered in many states, and there have been attempts to get it through the courts, as a privacy and free speech right.

SJG

Proponents of decriminalization want it to be considered a social problem instead of a criminal one. And it doesn't decriminalization solicitation.


And yeah most hookers want to be under the radar coz they don't want to be arrested. That's not the same as being an advocate for decriminalization

THe most vocal proponents of decriminalization are the sex workers. They want full decriminalization, they want the law out of their hair, permanently.

SJG

You're not describing legal decriminalization. You're just saying cops should ignore prostitution.

This is what legal decriminalization is, cops are out of the picture. This helps protect sex workers and clients.

SJG

I am not pretending that there are not wrinkles to this. But what Chesa Boudin has done in S.F. is just to stop enforcing the law. That is his authority, and he was elected by the people. But others want to go further and actually repeal the laws. I think in Canada they have done this, though it might be just Ontario, not sure.

SJG

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=4535

I get you want prostitution to be legal but it isn't. And all those what if scenarios don't mean a thing.

Yes of course, but that is the point of this thread, to talk about which is better, legalization or decriminalization. Most of the prostitution advocates used to want the first, now they say the second way is better, and I agree. There have been proposals to change the laws, and court cases to try and change it on constitutional grounds.

Manhattan only prosecuting clients
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporte…

SJG

This Is What Will Make Sex Work in New York Safer
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/17/opini…

Don’t Fully Decriminalize Sex Work
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/29/opini…

At Least 42% Of U.S. Voters Want Prostitution Decriminalized
https://www.wagmtv.com/prnewswire/2021/1…

Oregon Sex Workers Say a Kristof Governorship Could Jeopardize Their Workplace Safety and Rights
“I don’t want a moral crusader governing anything.”

https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/11/10/or…

Is Oregon Ready to Decriminalize Sex Work?Is Oregon Ready to Decriminalize Sex Work?
https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/10/24/is…

SJG

TJ Street
https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=2305

Decriminalize make it legal. Let those gals do their whoring undisturbed.

I want see Miami Beach bikini call girl hotel.

^^^^ AMEN!

SJG

California's Senate Bill 357 to legalize loitering with intent to engage in prostitution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-8lzKy6…

MKIA SB 357 - CALIFORNIA SET TO LEGALIZE STREET PROSTITUTION & LET PREVIOUS OFFENDERS OUT OF PRISON
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPe0J1XM…

Prostitution legalization
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Brvcwr…

Legalization of prostitution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIxbbFee…

SJG

Prostitution legalization
Has Camille Harris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Brvcwr…

CA SB-357
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces…

California State Senator Scott Wiener’s Legislation to Repeal a Loitering Law Targeting Sex Workers Passes Assembly
September 12, 2021 - SACRAMENTO - Last week, Senator Scott Wiener’s (D-San Francisco) Senate Bill 357, the Safer Streets for All Act, passed the Assembly by a vote of 41-26. It now heads to the scott weiner california state senatorSenate for a concurrence vote, and then to the Governor’s desk to be signed. SB 357 repeals a provision of California law criminalizing “loitering with the intent to engage in prostitution.” This criminal provision — arrests for which are based on an officer’s subjective perception of whether a person is “acting like” or “looks like” they intend to engage in sex work — results in the disproportionate criminalization of trans, Black and Brown women, and perpetuates violence toward sex workers.

SB 357 is sponsored by a large coalition made up of former and current sex workers, LGTBQ groups like Equality California and Transgender Gender-variant and Intersex Justice Project (TGIJP), and civil rights groups like the ACLU. The Coalition to Abolish Slavery and Trafficking (CAST LA) is supporting the legislation.

SB 357 does not decriminalize soliciting or engaging in sex work. Rather, it simply eliminates an loitering offense that leads to harmful treatment of people for simply “appearing” to be a sex worker.

https://goldrushcam.com/sierrasuntimes/i…

Here's what Chesa Boudin's detractors get wrong about crime

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/H…

SJG

Why Sex Workers Are Wary of Kamala Harris
Though she claims to support decriminalization, Joe Biden’s VP pick has a regressive record when it comes to sex-worker rights

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/po…

Yet many on the left were not overly pleased with the pick, pointing to Harris’s somewhat regressive record when she was district attorney of San Francisco and attorney general of California. Among these critics were sex workers’ rights advocates, who have been vocal about Harris’s historically aggressive approach to policing the community and her perceived flip-flops on decriminalization.

From her days as district attorney, Harris has had a reputation as an antagonist of sex workers. In 2008, she was a vocal opponent of Prop K, a ballot measure intended to decriminalize prostitution in San Francisco. She referred to Prop K as “completely ridiculous,” arguing that it rolled out “a welcome mat out for pimps and prostitutes to come on into San Francisco.”


SESTA/FOSTA “has made everyone much less safe,” says McCracken. “It’s really impacted people. We’re in this state with COVID where so many people are not able to make ends meet — it’s very hard to communicate online, communicate resources — and I can’t help but think that’s a direct impact of SESTA/FOSTA.”

STREET PROSTITUTION BILL PASSES STATE SENATE
https://ukenreport.com/street-prostituti…

SJG

MonaLisa Twins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKRle7mg…

The Jeff Healey Band - While My Guitar Gently Weeps (live)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCaL_v2E…

Competing Bills Seek To Decriminalize Sex Work In NY
https://www.law360.com/access-to-justice…

SJG

https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=9269

Philanthropist aims for Oregon ballot measure decriminalizing prostitution
https://kcby.com/news/local/philanthropi…

there is a movement in Oregon to legalize prostitution or sex workers.


Report Reveals Critical Need for Decriminalization of Sex Work in Oregon

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases…


SJG

YaYa
https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=2156

Xxbunny
https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=6687

Martinism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO9tamxx…

Strong arguments for decriminalization over legalization

Decriminalizing Sex Work Panel Discussion June 2021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyl4Jvg0…

SJG

FLEETWOOD MAC - THE MIDNIGHT SPECIAL 1976 (STEREO VERSION)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZogNpqHg…

"
Seattle has a system of prostitution criminalization called “End Demand,” which is essentially the American version of what is known elsewhere as the Nordic (or “equality”) system. There are four types of global legal systems with regard to prostitution: criminalization, partial decriminalization, full decriminalization, and legalization. Criminalization is what most countries around the world have and certainly what most of the U.S. has currently. Many big cities in the U.S., however, have recently started to institute partial decriminalization, which means the buyers’ side of the transaction is the only one that is criminalized, while the side of the sex worker is not. However, crimes related to prostitution, such as loitering with intent, trespassing, and related infractions, still remain intact.
"

Seattle, sex workers want decriminalization!

https://southseattleemerald.com/2021/11/…

SJG

^^^^^^

"
Both of these efforts were made possible by the lobbying of highly powerful and moneyed nonprofit organizations, like Exodus Cry. These nonprofits are often based in evangelical Christian ideals that regard prostitution as a mortal sin and prostitutes as sinners in need of rescuing — or saving, rather. Needless to say, these organizations never make room for the idea that prostitution can be anything but trafficking — their position is that prostitution is inherently exploitative and therefore all prostitution is forced.
"


"
In Seattle, there is much money to be earned in the partial decriminalization business. We have two programs set up to “deal with” the “social ill” of prostitution. Upon arrest, prostitutes are funneled into a program called Law Enforcement Assisted Diversion (LEAD), while sex buyers are funneled into a similar diversion program called the Men’s Accountability Program through Seattle Against Slavery. To take part in this program costs anywhere from $400 to $1,200 per sex buyer (yes, they have to pay the nonprofit directly). Until recently, the program was run by Peter Qualliotine through Organization for Prostitution Survivors (OPS) in Seattle, whose questionable motives for doing the work are a popular topic of conversation among sex workers and sex trafficking survivors throughout Seattle. Peter’s LinkedIn page has always been — to put it nicely — quite scant on background info and qualifications. He is a white, cisgender man who has never been in the sex industry who is making money and a career off the backs of real survivors, most of whom are not cisgender white men.
"

"
Once you see that much of King County’s money comes directly from this structure of partial decriminalization of prostitution — that it is both a means to force sex workers to believe they have been exploited and trafficked, even if they haven’t, and to force sex buyers to learn and regurgitate an ideology that all prostitution is gender-based violence — it seems Seattle has a big problem when it comes to how prostitution is dealt with, on both sides. And this is just the tip of the problematic iceberg. There’s greed, ego, and rampant sexism and racism entrenched in these systems and within the toxic nonprofits that support them. In the end, it’s Seattle sex workers who are losing.
"

SJG

And so what today is a politically aware sex worker?

Well for one thing they call themselves sex workers because they want the dignity which comes from being a worker. They don't want to be seen as people who need help or rescuing, and they don't want to be seen as people suffering from some sort of character disorder.

They know that what they do has social value.

They don't want to be bothered by LE. And they don't want to have contact with Do Gooders.

They keep health and fit, and they handle their money well. It may take time for them to get to this, but they do do it.

SJG

GEORGE FEST - Norah Jones - SOMETHING @ Fonda 09-28-14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC42CJoB…

That's like what girls on stripper want everyone to believe.

I'd say a politically aware sex worker would be a sex positive feminist

Awareness goes beyond self interest or survival.

There certainly are other countries where sex-work is legal (think of the FKK scene in Germany for example). I don’t know any of the details but in Germany, the workers are private contractors (like many of our friends in strip clubs) — there’s the cover charge to get in and then the consenting adults work out the rest. Singapore seems to also be another place that has some of this figured out.

Yes awareness goes beyond mere self interest or survival. And once LE and the Do Gooders have been run out of the picture, awareness will develop.

Very few other countries still crack down on prostitution the way the US does.

SJG

I think we should follow the Netherlands model when it comes to prostitution.

That's not how it works. You just want to fuck hookers without legal repercussions. That's not being politically aware

Icey, for myself, sex workers are superior to civvies. Civvies may be easier to bed, but the best sex workers are far superior.

Keeping prostitution criminalized is just a way to outlaw sex.

SJG

Any kind of decriminalization would still have rules and would be legally regulated

Not necessarily. Usually Legalization is the way to still have rules.

On the whole pro-prostitution advocates no longer want this. We want complete decriminalization. Sex workers don't want to give LE any chance to fuck with them.


SJG

Ann Wilson - Like a Rolling Stone (Dylan Cover)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENuV-vY2…

That can't happen unless you change labor laws concerning illicit labor money laundering procurement etc

No one will support the existence of an underground economy

Well as it stands all income, even if from illegal sources, has to be reported for income tax.

There is already all sorts of underground economy stuff going on. And casual prostitution is only one of the more common forms.

SJG

That's what we already have though

Legalization by far. Pop would come down.

Player11, do you really prefer legalization. Most prostitution advocates today prefer decriminalization. That way LE is completely out of the picture.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Brag…

Alvin Bragg District Attorney of New York County

Not prosecuting some nonviolent misdemeanors, including SEX WORK!

"Bragg is from the Upper Manhattan neighborhood of Harlem, and grew up on Striver's Row.[3] In an interview with The American Prospect, Bragg noted that he had been "deeply affected by the criminal justice system – most directly through three gunpoint stops by the NYPD."[4] He graduated from the Trinity School,[5] before he attended Harvard College. He graduated from Harvard cum laude with a Bachelor of Arts in government in 1995,[3][6] and earned his Juris Doctor from Harvard Law School, where he served as an editor of the Harvard Civil Rights-Civil Liberties Law Review.[6][5]"

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/on-air/as-see…

Alvin Bragg says he will not prosecute on prostitution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q9Nfhp4…

SJG

Behind That Locked Door (George Harrison) - Emotional Version by Norah Jones Live on Conan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OC2ZVnr…

GEORGE FEST - Norah Jones - SOMETHING @ Fonda 09-28-14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC42CJoB…

Le isn't out of the picture in decriminalization procurement and solicitation are still crimes. And cops conduct welfare checks on hoes instead of arresting them.

Many want those laws eliminated and LE out of their lives. And they don't want to have to deal with Do Gooders either.

Universal Basic Income eliminated Welfare and Needs Testing.

SJG

A free for all isn't going to happen

Well, what many want, when it comes to sex work, is a free for all.

Now these DA's, NYC and SF not prosecuting, that makes it a free for all.

Hard to see how there is a basis for continued criminalization or regulation.

SJG

Why should we have laws saying who adults can and cannot consensually fuck?

SJG

Egypt cuts TikTok influencer sentence to three years
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/18…

SJG