tuscl

Thelema & the Decriminalization of Sex Work

san_jose_guy
money was invented for handing to women, but buying dances is a chump's game
Blazing Star O.T.O. Oakland CA

This is a panel discussion on the decriminalization of sex work and the threat of laws like FOSTA-SESTA on the liberties of consenting adults. The panel features sex work activist Carol Leight (aka Scarlot Harlot), kink educator and owner of Wicked Grounds Miriam Green, and erotic services provider and libertarian activist Starchild.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhBzgzga…

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/…

SJG

19 comments

  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    ^^^^^ Do you agree with the Catharine A. MacKinnon segment in the above video?

    Her's is a kind of feminism, sort of. But there are also all sorts of other kinds of feminism, like those of the women in the video and conference.

    SJG
  • Icey
    •
    5 years ago
    Their arguments are too weak.

    One's "rights" cease when they commit a crime. So its not about censoring the net. Imagine the ridiculousness of that argument if it were applied to revenge porn laws or cyber bullying laws...

    Also, decriminalization would work in tandem with laws like SESTA-FOSTA to make it easier for victims of human trafficking....which is a broad term that makes any woman who is pimped, coerced...even by her addiction...life circumstances, forced, etc into prostitution, to be a victim.

    The real legal aim of decriminalization is to help these women out of their lifestyle. Not to facilitate solicitation as some "sex work activists" ie libertarian feminists would ascertain. Their argument won't get anywhere because solicitation and engaging in prostitution fall under labor laws. Hence why the emphasis on trafficking, arresting buyers, etc ... They can scream til they pass out but they don't have any sort of constitutional argument whatsoever.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Mostly as long as it is all adults, there aren't anymore en forcible laws against visual porn.

    Some practitioners don't want to be helped out of anything. They are perfectly happy doing what they do. Some feminists see prostitution as a basic civil right.

    Trafficking may occur sometimes, but abuses like that occur in other realms too.

    The reason for the focus on Trafficking is that that is what people who object to prostitution have advanced. They are trying to make the argument that women cannot consent to prostitution.

    Always when it comes to prostitution, the issue has been trying to establish that someone is a victim, to justify continued criminalization. The Trafficking arguments do that. In conservative jurisdictions, they make the sex worker out to be a criminal and social menace. In liberal jurisdictions they make the sex worker out to be a victim. Trafficking is one of the ways which they do this.

    Even though I do not go along with the Libertarian Party, with reason magazine, or with the O.T.O. and Thelema, I still say that the OP video is good.

    Here are some other videos:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f5tCmYO…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFxbLlC0…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZCvFznS…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gucGRob…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4vHG6go…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-n852s…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ksxckEF…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXNJ55IJ…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exq2bbYR…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJJ_3deY…
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Mostly as long as it is all adults, there aren't anymore en forcible laws against visual porn.

    Some practitioners don't want to be helped out of anything. They are perfectly happy doing what they do. Some feminists see prostitution as a basic civil right.

    Trafficking may occur sometimes, but abuses like that occur in other realms too.

    The reason for the focus on Trafficking is that that is what people who object to prostitution have advanced. They are trying to make the argument that women cannot consent to prostitution.

    Always when it comes to prostitution, the issue has been trying to establish that someone is a victim, to justify continued criminalization. The Trafficking arguments do that. In conservative jurisdictions, they make the sex worker out to be a criminal and social menace. In liberal jurisdictions they make the sex worker out to be a victim. Trafficking is one of the ways which they do this.

    Even though I do not go along with the Libertarian Party, with reason magazine, or with the O.T.O. and Thelema, I still say that the OP video is good.

    Here are some other videos:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f5tCmYO…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFxbLlC0…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZCvFznS…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gucGRob…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4vHG6go…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-n852s…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ksxckEF…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXNJ55IJ…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exq2bbYR…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJJ_3deY…
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Mostly as long as it is all adults, there aren't anymore en forcible laws against visual porn.

    Some practitioners don't want to be helped out of anything. They are perfectly happy doing what they do. Some feminists see prostitution as a basic civil right.

    Trafficking may occur sometimes, but abuses like that occur in other realms too.

    The reason for the focus on Trafficking is that that is what people who object to prostitution have advanced. They are trying to make the argument that women cannot consent to prostitution.

    Always when it comes to prostitution, the issue has been trying to establish that someone is a victim, to justify continued criminalization. The Trafficking arguments do that. In conservative jurisdictions, they make the sex worker out to be a criminal and social menace. In liberal jurisdictions they make the sex worker out to be a victim. Trafficking is one of the ways which they do this.

    Even though I do not go along with the Libertarian Party, with reason magazine, or with the O.T.O. and Thelema, I still say that the OP video is good.

    Here are some other videos:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f5tCmYO…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFxbLlC0…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZCvFznS…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gucGRob…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4vHG6go…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-n852s…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ksxckEF…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXNJ55IJ…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exq2bbYR…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJJ_3deY…
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
  • Icey
    •
    5 years ago
    Its not a civil rights issue though, it deals with labor law.

    Porn is legally acting, people are portraying sexual relationships in their roles... Which is very different from prostitution.

    There are still enforceable laws against the distribution of porn and the content cannot violate laws.

    Human trafficking goes way beyond the scope of prostitution...

    Decriminalization focuses on prosecuting tricks and pimps and other enablers because they exploit prostitutes...

    As far as the myth of the happy hooker goes, it is a myth.... I've never met a hoe who actually likes what she does.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    As far as happy hookers, you just have to listen to them.

    What public interest is there in still keeping prostitution crimnalized?

    SJG
  • Icey
    •
    5 years ago
    A hooker will never be honest with a customer or potential customer. They know the guy is paying for an illusion.

    There's a lot of public interest in keeping it criminalized... the commodification of women would set women's rights back, it in nations with legal/decriminalized prostitution...human trafficking became a bigger problem, criminalization allows LE and the system in general to better address the factors that cause prostitution.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Well most people believe that as long as there is consent, then their is nothing wrong.

    The Trafficking issue seems to have been invented just to try and say that even when it looks like there is consent, there really isn't.

    Lots of migratory workers on this planet. But the trafficking issue is always being aimed at female sex workers.

    Factors that cause prostitution, a lot of it is just the limited types of career options, and then just the fact that many want to do that.

    LE have never done anything at all to address any of these issues, nor will they.

    Ask these guys who session at that most famous place in Atlanta, if those girls are Happy Hookers?

    SJG
  • Icey
    •
    5 years ago
    Trafficking really is a problem. And not just with prostitution.

    Courts address the problem... LE works with social workers and non profits etc

    And its not about sex, its about unlawful employment under the law.

    Whenever anyone engages in something illegal such as commodifying their own body, or it being done so by others, there is an unequal power relation thats coercive by its very nature.
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Yes, but people feel that adults should have the right to consent to such. You see girls in strip clubs, ones who could be labeled as hookers. Do they seem unduly opressed, aren't they Happy Hookers.


    All kind of Labor Trafficking, but most types you never hear any objection to. The focus is only on Sex Trafficking, and by those who object to sex work.

    Used to be that the puritanical school of feminism focused on "porn" as consensual exploitation and abuse.

    Now that the Internet has made visual porn quite normative, hard to make that argument anymore. So now they talk about Trafficking, the next form of consensual exploitation to rally against.

    SJG
  • Icey
    •
    5 years ago
    The strippers who resort to prostituting are ones who can't make enough money just dancing. Also, a lot of pimps place hookers in strip clubs coz its an easy way to get tricks.
  • Icey
    •
    5 years ago
    Porn is tolerated but not normative via cultural standards
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    Porn is not normative. Who cares. Everyone knows that strip clubs start off in territory which is not normative.

    The best of our girls were the ones I have called, "The Beloved Latina Escorts". I don't know that they ever worked in a low mileage club. Their preference was for FS. When the club got busted, they brought their own mini-van for the parking lot. These girls had no dealing with pimps. But they did line up and deliver on all the OTC they could. They were the happiest of the happiest. It was just the way they were.

    Women have the right to consent.

    SJG

    Earth, Wind & Fire (7/16) - Reason
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_XNUMfQ…
  • Icey
    •
    5 years ago
    Per the law, they're free to consent to as much sex as they want. But not to engage in illegal labor.
  • Icey
    •
    5 years ago
    They're not out there doing it for free...
  • san_jose_guy
    •
    5 years ago
    There is no enforcement of labor law against prostitution. But their is still enforcement of the prostitution law. Many want that enforcement to stop, starting with many active prostitutes.

    SJG
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