Went to Follies today to see my fav. We have talked a little about it before and now have set up a day for us this week. I'm just a little nervous as this we be the 1st time doing this.
We talked about it. We're going to go get some food. Go to a bar and have a couple drinks then go back to the hotel and have fun. I'm not really worried about that I'm just nervous in general and I am kind of worried that she'll flake.
Word of advice, before you hop into bed, just be clear on what you are looking for in the relationship (a sugar baby relationship, Casual “escorting type of sex?” Boyfriend/Girlfriend sex? one night stand?) so you can make informed choices and can be honest with her about your expectations.
If you have unrealistic expectations you are going to be disappointed. Your plan sounds like a “regular date”; dinner, drinks and sex at the end. Just do what you would in a regular date and expect regular date sex.
If you are worried about flaking/not show up, being hours late, just tell her that you value reliability and punctuality. I have told faves before that I don’t wait more than 15 minutes for anyone, family, friends, doctors, lawyers, etc etc, without an explanation. In this day of cellphones there is no excuse, to let me know if they have a situation and need to reschedule, running late etc. I have a rule of two no shows and no more.
Others here have a rule to discount money for every 15 minutes of being late, whatever works for you.
Just prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best.
This is the first OTC, don't overthink it. You don't even have any experience yet to make a judgement on what you're looking for anyway. Don't make it weird. Go have fun you crazy kids.
There's at least a 50% chance she'll flake. Get that into your head, and be pleasantly surprised (and express your appreciation to her) if she makes it. If she flakes, hey, that's what you were expecting anyway. BTW, the more $ that's on the line, the less likely she'll flake.
Keep in touch with her by text every now and then, and make sure you confirm day-of. If she goes silent day-of or day before, she'll likely flake.
Thanks everybody for the advice. Papi I'm ok with what we've agreed on a price so thats not a problem. Kent I don't really know what I'm looking for with this and I don't really have expectations. Wle're just doing a dinner date thing then back to the hotel and she's staying overnight. I will beusing the rule of two no-shows and I'm done with her if she flakes. My hotel is non-refundable so I'll be staying there no matter what and I'll still go out by myself and have fun. If it happens. Subraman I'm trying to keep that mindset and I will be keeping in touch with her.
===> "I’m no OTC pro but the advice from the two posters immediately above is rock solid."
Well, one out of two anyway. Subraman gave some sound advice, but CJ was perhaps overthinking it a bit. Just roll with it and, if it pans out, have fun.
Some other random notes:
1. I've learned the hard way not to book hotels too far in advance of a meetup. As Sub rightly pointed out, the further one advance plans with a stripper, the less likely it is to happen. 2 days is like 2 weeks in stripper time - anything can happen.
2. I'm assuming you've set a price already, but if not then she's taking you for a ride if she quotes north of $400. Also, contrary to 3131's goofy theory, VIP price ITC has no correlation to what a girl might want OTC - it's one of the stupidest theories floating around this site.
3. If you really must take a Follies girl out, make sure it's not after she's just done a shift. You don't want to pay premium OTC money just to be the last in a train of dicks she has serviced that day. I understand that this is a starter OTC girl, but in the future you might want to hunt in places with lower volume chicks. Just a thought. ;)
Dugan - yeah I think CJs advice was good but it would be more natural to serve up those questions in a roundabout way vs super direct. Agree fully with your add’l advice too.
For me, CJKent is way, way overthinking. It's the guy's very first OTC. He's going to be nervous enough. Figure there's a good chance she'll flake, check in with her by text to make sure she's still on before driving to wherever you're meeting. Rick brought up a good point I forgot (don't book hotel too far in advance), but I go even further, don't book the hotel until she's actually shown up.
Also like Rick, I've never correlated either VIP price, or some guesstimate on how much she makes per shift, with my OTC offer. OTC is OTC, it's different than ITC, and there's no reason you have to link them together. That said, it seems like a lot of guys on tuscl follow this, so if it works for them, great.
After he gets over OTC nerves, there's plenty of time to fine-tune things like the speech on how he values punctuality, or being "clear" in his own head on what he wants out of this, or whatever
How different is OTC price from ITC? Seems they are both in the same neighborhood are they not (unless one wants an all-day/night date I can see a possible significant deviation) - $OTC in the neighborhood of $ITC keeps newbies from paying $1k for OTC thinking that is what it takes
I’d go with $250-400 depending on the club and my guesstimate as to what a dancer leaves with on an average shift, I also agree with Rick unless you’re doing OTC with a particular girl regularly don’t rent the room till you actually are F2F
Papi -- I see what you're saying, if it can be used as an upper limit sanity check, to keep newbies from paying $1k for OTC, then it's a fine tool. My worry was the opposite, people would think, "well, I want a 3-hour OTC, and the VIP room costs $300 an hour, so I should offer $900".
-->"How different is OTC price from ITC?"
There's many ways OTC price is different from ITC, but perhaps the most important by far: OTC is price by the event, ITC is priced by time (and/or by which particular room you use). So I negotiate $350 (say) for OTC? That's what she gets if the OTC goes 2 hours, or 6, or overnight (as long as I don't make the mistake of explicitly saying "$X for Y amount of time", and keep all discussions at the event level). This applies unless you're dealing with a high-volume escort-style stripper. This is one of many things that makes OTC (and SA, for that matter) sooooo much cheaper than escorts, on a time basis.
===> "How different is OTC price from ITC? Seems they are both in the same neighborhood are they not (unless one wants an all-day/night date I can see a possible significant deviation) - $OTC in the neighborhood of $ITC keeps newbies from paying $1k for OTC thinking that is what it takes."
If they are close in any given market, then IME it is more a coincidence than anything else. In some places, ITC VIPs are much less expensive than getting a girl to agree to devoting a certain amount of time alone with a customer OTC. In others, where VIPs are very expensive, nearly impossible to sell consistently and include a big cut for the club, girls can be taken out for significantly less.
IME the two factors that most heavily influence OTC costs are (1) the prices in the local escort market; and (2) how good the money is in the clubs. The first impacts what guys are willing to pay to take a girl OTC vs. other p4p options. The second impacts how motivated a girl might be to accept an offer..
In most places, I am in good shape if I'm coming in somewhere close to the average of a skipthegames girl and the higher end Eros girls. However, where that falls apart is in the handful of markets where the money is so damned good ITC that the girls aren't motivated to go OTC for less than a significant premium - NYC and L.A. are two that come to mind.
For example, let's say that a VIP session is $250 in a certain club. But let's also say that it is one of those places where stage tipping is common and she's pulling 150-200 just in tips over the night. Let's also say that VIPs and LDs can be sold and she's picking up another 200-400 (her cut) from them per shift.
If she's averaging 350-600 per shift without having to have sex, how motivated do you think she'll be to be isolated with a customer for an hour or more, and even have sex with him, just to pick up another $250? Now sure there may be outliers who simply want to grab every possible dollar, but most of those girls are going to be fat and happy already.
This is just one example. I could highlight all sorts of other combinations, from different club regions, where any combination of the circumstances I outlined further above create a significant divergence between VIP prices and OTC costs.
I can understand NYC being a place money flows, but LA? The stripper consensus is that it’s a terrible city for dancing, second place after Miami. Like you work there because you love the city, not the clubs. And that extras are pretty rampant. And even before the silly employment laws, Vegas was still a popular commute destination.
I remember one girl talking about 4play and how stressful it is to work there. And that money was all or nothing...as in like 1k or less than $100. And this girl was amazingly beautiful too. Face, body shape, height, hair, etc Eventually she got tired of it and went to Bourbon Street in AZ and claimed she liked it way more. —— As for OP, yeah flaking might happen. You may get peeved if it happens this time around but you will get used to it.
^ If I was going to do OTC I’d ask her for a number if it’s under 350 and she was my type I’d probably go along, if I had to make an offer I’d start at 250 and gauge her reaction.
Papi posted: "^ so what would be a sensible OTC offer in that scenario?"
In the one example I outlined above, I'm sure it would take well north of $250 and would be harder to find. it would also be helpful if one could catch her on a slow night when she was in need of cash. A few of my best OTC girls were like that - I knew my chances were good on a Monday or Tuesday night, but they would turn to shit on a weekend night with a club full of guys spending money.
I don't know the Atlanta market very well, but I will maintain that he should hold the line at $400. He could probably do it for $300 if he didn't need to keep her occupied for half the night living out his dream date fantasy, but to each his own. The only wrinkle is that this is a Follies girl who, if she looks good enough, can probably line up a string of dicks to suck ITC already. So she has to compare what she could make ITC with multiple guys to easier money with one guy OTC and figure out what's worth it for her to skip a shift.
I find a strong correlation between OTC/ITC pricing, at least between Club + Girl fees in total & ignoring the time factor. For example, if a club charges $100 for the room & the girl charges $200, it's a near certainty we'll start near $300.
There's a ton of variation though, so I fully recognize that my experience may not align with others. For example, I tend to be a day shift clubber. I tend to hit the midrange clubs or divier joints. I tend to sit with a fave stripper for hours, so I've got a good idea what they make on those shifts because I constitute a large potion of it. Most importantly, I tend to want to do OTC at times when it's convenient for her. My $300 compares a lot more favorably on a Tuesday/Wednesday afternoon/evening than it does on a Friday night, regardless of if I'm competing with a day at work or a night out. Also, like Nice said, I'm in a market where supply is pretty readily available, the busier clubs also have a shit ton of girls in them leading to boom or bust. The appeal of a solid # appeals to some.
For me, any correlation between OTC and ITC is indirect at best. For example, ITC at the clubs I go to, it's $100 for 3 songs (let's call it $500/hour) for a VIP, or $350 for 30 minutes ($700/hour) for champagne rooms -- and both of those are no extras. It would, though, be insane to say "okay, so 3-hour OTC should cost more than $1500/$2100 since extras are involved". There's just no bearing at all. Even $500 for OTC is a good deal higher than you need to go, at least for dayshift girls.
Why? Because, probably most importantly, the girls aren't making that much money on dayshift. Doesn't matter what VIP rooms cost. Dayshift sucks in SF. As mentioned by nicespice, the employment laws have made it even worse -- the girls take home less per shift, they are no longer allowed to work more than 32 hours a week so they take home less per week, and they can't even work doubles anymore so the popular "work all week then do doubles on Saturday" is no longer an option. Plain and simple, the girls aren't making that much. You are overpaying by a little, or a whole lot, if you use this as a guide. Especially with the girls not allowed to work more than 32 hours or do doubles, that leaves a lot of extra time for them where they need to make $ but can't do it at the club.
And even when we didn't have the terrible employment rules and dayshift was much busier, some years back, I found girls often took lower for OTC than you'd expect. My guess is, given the choice between making okay money for OTC with a known regular who she likes or at least is relatively less disgusted by, and making better money ITC but having to give a lot of it to the club, having to be "on" and dancing all day, having to deal with obnoxious customers and probing fingers in orifices, for some girls an OTC is the better choice. Especially now with the 32-hour limit, it's no longer either/or -- if she's worked 32 hours or even missed a shift, she's SOL.
IMO most guys that use the ITC "rule of thumb" for OTC don't do it on a time vs time basis but more of a service vs service basis - i.e. $300 to get laid ITC, and $300 to get laid OTC usually not as restricted on time as it is in the club (it's usually the club that sets the time restriction)
Papi: the fact that I do OTC out of no extras clubs throws it off even more for people here. There's no $X to get laid, you're not getting laid in a no-extras club. So the only way to compare ITC pricing is price per VIP room or whatever, which definitely does not correlate well with OTC prices. I can imagine there might be cities or clubs where it works better as a rule of thumb
Your $250 sounds about avg ITC in most mixed clubs I've been and perhaps a bit on the low-side - e.g. Tootsies going rate for ITC is $300 (on avg) to the girl and $100 for the room - on a slow Tootsies dayshift maybe you can score $200 ITC and on a busy Fr/Sat eve a good # hold out for $400 to $500 min or else some won't bother
I guess I never did close this out. Of course things didn't go quite as I would have liked them too, but I did learn from the experience. She didn't stand me up. After she got to the hotel we hung out there for a little bit just BSing and we went outside and smoked some loser leaf. Afterwards we headed out to dinner and did a little shopping. She was definitely trying to see how much I would spend, but I didn't cave much just a couple small things no high dollar items. After that we went back and had some fun back at the hotel. She was supposed to stay all night but got a text around 1 or 2 and told me she had to go. Supposedly her roommate, who was another dancer at the club didn't have her key and she had to go let her in. So she did leave early on me but other than that it didn't turn out that bad in the end. This is still my only experience OTC, though I have seen her ITC since then. I would do another OTC but it will be a while.
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Word of advice, before you hop into bed, just be clear on what you are looking for in the relationship (a sugar baby relationship, Casual “escorting type of sex?” Boyfriend/Girlfriend sex? one night stand?) so you can make informed choices and can be honest with her about your expectations.
If you have unrealistic expectations you are going to be disappointed. Your plan sounds like a “regular date”; dinner, drinks and sex at the end. Just do what you would in a regular date and expect regular date sex.
If you are worried about flaking/not show up, being hours late, just tell her that you value reliability and punctuality. I have told faves before that I don’t wait more than 15 minutes for anyone, family, friends, doctors, lawyers, etc etc, without an explanation. In this day of cellphones there is no excuse, to let me know if they have a situation and need to reschedule, running late etc.
I have a rule of two no shows and no more.
Others here have a rule to discount money for every 15 minutes of being late, whatever works for you.
Just prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best.
Be careful and safe out there.
There's at least a 50% chance she'll flake. Get that into your head, and be pleasantly surprised (and express your appreciation to her) if she makes it. If she flakes, hey, that's what you were expecting anyway. BTW, the more $ that's on the line, the less likely she'll flake.
Keep in touch with her by text every now and then, and make sure you confirm day-of. If she goes silent day-of or day before, she'll likely flake.
Please let us know how it works out.
Well, one out of two anyway. Subraman gave some sound advice, but CJ was perhaps overthinking it a bit. Just roll with it and, if it pans out, have fun.
Some other random notes:
1. I've learned the hard way not to book hotels too far in advance of a meetup. As Sub rightly pointed out, the further one advance plans with a stripper, the less likely it is to happen. 2 days is like 2 weeks in stripper time - anything can happen.
2. I'm assuming you've set a price already, but if not then she's taking you for a ride if she quotes north of $400. Also, contrary to 3131's goofy theory, VIP price ITC has no correlation to what a girl might want OTC - it's one of the stupidest theories floating around this site.
3. If you really must take a Follies girl out, make sure it's not after she's just done a shift. You don't want to pay premium OTC money just to be the last in a train of dicks she has serviced that day. I understand that this is a starter OTC girl, but in the future you might want to hunt in places with lower volume chicks. Just a thought. ;)
4. Most important, have fun!
Also like Rick, I've never correlated either VIP price, or some guesstimate on how much she makes per shift, with my OTC offer. OTC is OTC, it's different than ITC, and there's no reason you have to link them together. That said, it seems like a lot of guys on tuscl follow this, so if it works for them, great.
After he gets over OTC nerves, there's plenty of time to fine-tune things like the speech on how he values punctuality, or being "clear" in his own head on what he wants out of this, or whatever
-->"How different is OTC price from ITC?"
There's many ways OTC price is different from ITC, but perhaps the most important by far: OTC is price by the event, ITC is priced by time (and/or by which particular room you use). So I negotiate $350 (say) for OTC? That's what she gets if the OTC goes 2 hours, or 6, or overnight (as long as I don't make the mistake of explicitly saying "$X for Y amount of time", and keep all discussions at the event level). This applies unless you're dealing with a high-volume escort-style stripper. This is one of many things that makes OTC (and SA, for that matter) sooooo much cheaper than escorts, on a time basis.
If they are close in any given market, then IME it is more a coincidence than anything else. In some places, ITC VIPs are much less expensive than getting a girl to agree to devoting a certain amount of time alone with a customer OTC. In others, where VIPs are very expensive, nearly impossible to sell consistently and include a big cut for the club, girls can be taken out for significantly less.
IME the two factors that most heavily influence OTC costs are (1) the prices in the local escort market; and (2) how good the money is in the clubs. The first impacts what guys are willing to pay to take a girl OTC vs. other p4p options. The second impacts how motivated a girl might be to accept an offer..
In most places, I am in good shape if I'm coming in somewhere close to the average of a skipthegames girl and the higher end Eros girls. However, where that falls apart is in the handful of markets where the money is so damned good ITC that the girls aren't motivated to go OTC for less than a significant premium - NYC and L.A. are two that come to mind.
If she's averaging 350-600 per shift without having to have sex, how motivated do you think she'll be to be isolated with a customer for an hour or more, and even have sex with him, just to pick up another $250? Now sure there may be outliers who simply want to grab every possible dollar, but most of those girls are going to be fat and happy already.
This is just one example. I could highlight all sorts of other combinations, from different club regions, where any combination of the circumstances I outlined further above create a significant divergence between VIP prices and OTC costs.
I remember one girl talking about 4play and how stressful it is to work there. And that money was all or nothing...as in like 1k or less than $100. And this girl was amazingly beautiful too. Face, body shape, height, hair, etc Eventually she got tired of it and went to Bourbon Street in AZ and claimed she liked it way more.
——
As for OP, yeah flaking might happen. You may get peeved if it happens this time around but you will get used to it.
In the one example I outlined above, I'm sure it would take well north of $250 and would be harder to find. it would also be helpful if one could catch her on a slow night when she was in need of cash. A few of my best OTC girls were like that - I knew my chances were good on a Monday or Tuesday night, but they would turn to shit on a weekend night with a club full of guys spending money.
I don't know the Atlanta market very well, but I will maintain that he should hold the line at $400. He could probably do it for $300 if he didn't need to keep her occupied for half the night living out his dream date fantasy, but to each his own. The only wrinkle is that this is a Follies girl who, if she looks good enough, can probably line up a string of dicks to suck ITC already. So she has to compare what she could make ITC with multiple guys to easier money with one guy OTC and figure out what's worth it for her to skip a shift.
There's a ton of variation though, so I fully recognize that my experience may not align with others. For example, I tend to be a day shift clubber. I tend to hit the midrange clubs or divier joints. I tend to sit with a fave stripper for hours, so I've got a good idea what they make on those shifts because I constitute a large potion of it. Most importantly, I tend to want to do OTC at times when it's convenient for her. My $300 compares a lot more favorably on a Tuesday/Wednesday afternoon/evening than it does on a Friday night, regardless of if I'm competing with a day at work or a night out. Also, like Nice said, I'm in a market where supply is pretty readily available, the busier clubs also have a shit ton of girls in them leading to boom or bust. The appeal of a solid # appeals to some.
Why? Because, probably most importantly, the girls aren't making that much money on dayshift. Doesn't matter what VIP rooms cost. Dayshift sucks in SF. As mentioned by nicespice, the employment laws have made it even worse -- the girls take home less per shift, they are no longer allowed to work more than 32 hours a week so they take home less per week, and they can't even work doubles anymore so the popular "work all week then do doubles on Saturday" is no longer an option. Plain and simple, the girls aren't making that much. You are overpaying by a little, or a whole lot, if you use this as a guide. Especially with the girls not allowed to work more than 32 hours or do doubles, that leaves a lot of extra time for them where they need to make $ but can't do it at the club.
And even when we didn't have the terrible employment rules and dayshift was much busier, some years back, I found girls often took lower for OTC than you'd expect. My guess is, given the choice between making okay money for OTC with a known regular who she likes or at least is relatively less disgusted by, and making better money ITC but having to give a lot of it to the club, having to be "on" and dancing all day, having to deal with obnoxious customers and probing fingers in orifices, for some girls an OTC is the better choice. Especially now with the 32-hour limit, it's no longer either/or -- if she's worked 32 hours or even missed a shift, she's SOL.
Your $250 sounds about avg ITC in most mixed clubs I've been and perhaps a bit on the low-side - e.g. Tootsies going rate for ITC is $300 (on avg) to the girl and $100 for the room - on a slow Tootsies dayshift maybe you can score $200 ITC and on a busy Fr/Sat eve a good # hold out for $400 to $500 min or else some won't bother
SJG
Last time I visited Scarletts & Eleven, I was quoted more than $300...
Maybe because it’s a Saturday Night...
I didn’t follow through because it was a bit steep for me...
Diamond Dolls Pompano Beach still offers the best value for my money...
For whatever reason the Hot White Spinners at the popular clubs {Tootsies, Scarletts & Eleven} tend to quote ridiculous sums of money...
But are people really paying that much for a VIP like about $500 - $600 that’s almost approaching GPS territory?
So what happened?